An objective view on Dave Artell

I can’t lie, leaving BP today I was as angry as I have been in a long, long time about those in black and white shirts, Danny Rose 100% excepted and absolved of any association with today’s latest shít show. He deserves to be a part of this no more than the fans do.

But having had the benefit of a 90 minute drive home, I’ve been able to give the situation some thought and consideration with with most of the raw emotion taken out of the equation. So let me start by saying that I think Dave Artell is probably a lovely bloke; he’s had some incredibly tough, even tragic events to contend with in his short time at the club and he’s handled them with compassion and dignity. Good on him for that.

But we are now, as a club, in a real pickle, and 21 goals conceded in 5 home games is a simply ridiculous stat that suggests something is seriously amiss somewhere. I want to make an objective assessment of the state of things; no aggression, no insults, just facts and figures. Spoiler alert; it ain’t good.

Let’s be fair though, the reason we were looking for a manager back in November is because Hurst had struggled to get a tune out of the team. So Artell inherited something somewhat dysfunctional, I think we can agree on that. The last few weeks under Hurst were not good, and it’s important not to re-write history. Here’s Hurst’s high-level record this season when he was sacked, incidentally after we played Donny. GF = “goals for”, GA = “goals against”.

Win % - 18.8%
PPG - 0.88
GF / game - 1.25
GA / game - 1.63

That’s not a great record by any stretch of the imagination, and it’s not surprising that it cost Hurst his job. On average, we were losing games by 0.38 goals.

And so we looked to Dave Artell to improve our fortunes. Let’s have a look at his record to date:

Win % - 15.4%
PPG - 0.77
GF / game - 1.31
GA / game - 2.13

Credit where it is due, one of the metrics has improved. Under Artell, we’ve scored 0.06 more goals per game than we did under Hurst this season. But that marginal improvement is absolutely dwarfed by what’s happened up the other end - under Artell we’re conceding 0.5 goals more per game than under the manager who was sacked. And that’s before you consider that over our last 6 games, we’ve conceded 3.5 goals per game on average, despite a clean sheet in one of those matches.

Ultimately, under Artell we’re winning a markedly fewer % of games, picking up less points on average than the man he replaced, and losing games by a much larger average margin (0.82 vs 0.38 ). Of course, comparing against Hurst is a small sample, but we’re in luck - one thing this club hasn’t lacked this century is struggling managers, so let’s have a look at Artell’s record versus every Town manager either sacked or whom resigned amidst poor performance (win ratio followed by points per game).

Dave Artell - 15.4% - 0.77
Lennie Lawrence - 28.5% - 1.32
Paul Groves - 23.3% - 1.00
Nicky Law - 25.0% - 0.92
Graham Rodger - 23.5% - 0.94
Alan Buckley iii - 34.0% - 1.44
Mike Newell - 24.5% - 0.94
Neil Woods - 25.4% - 1.18
Marcus Bignot - 33.3% - 1.26
Russell Slade ii - 25.6% - 1.05
Michael Jolley - 36.7% - 1.30
I*n H******y - 28.9% - 1.11
Paul Hurst ii - 37.7% - 1.37

It’s important to remember that not all of those managerial tenures were wholly awful. Hurst of course delivered tangible success before he got sacked, Jolley did ok with his hands behind his back, and Buckley’s third reign looks a lot better in statistical terms than it might live in our collective memories. But there are also some incredibly shambolic efforts in there too.

Nicky Law. Graham Rodger. Newell. Bignot. All of them had their own, uniquely shambolic qualities to what were throughly disastrous times in the Town dugout. And yet Artell’s record is meaningfully worse than all of them. That is quite profound.

Marcus Bignot, remembered quite correctly as a complete buffoon, had a win % well over 2x better than Artell’s. In fact, Artell would have to win the next 2 just to match Nicky Law’s win ratio. And that doesn’t even seem remotely likely. In figurative terms, Artell is the smallest of the dwarves, at a time when we need giants.

I’m not overly keen on calling for people to lose their job, but what we are witnessing in the here and now is outstandingly poor in the context of the club’s recent history; a recent history which has in itself been outstandingly poor.

This club, this town, cannot afford to lose its league status for a third time. To do so would be absolutely catastrophic. It has to be recognised that conceding 21 goals in 6 games, or 5 home games, is not normal. It can’t be acceptable.

We have some huge fixtures coming up, not least our next home game against Forest Green in two weeks. A change in first-team management needs to be made immediately in order for any successor, temporary or otherwise, to prepare accordingly.

I have nothing against Dave Artell personally, but the stats bear it out.

This can’t continue.

I really wanted Artell to do well, but he’s in a right situation here. We are appalling.

Hurst would have had us in the same situation, I’ve no doubt. The reason?  His squad.

Nonetheless, finger pointing doesn’t help. We need a win at Morecambe. Who here thinks we’ll get one? I’d hazard a guess it’ll be very close to 0% right now.

Once again just makes me think that Jolley was an alright manager and coming here ruined his career

What a sad state of affairs this is, how do we end up this bad without even being able to really pinpoint anything weve done massively wrong. At least when we used to sign a bunch of alcaholic journeymen on clear downward trajectories in their careers and have them train on a muddy bog with penny floaters it was easy to accept why we were crap

Good post, and given our owners claim to be data driven, you can’t really argue against it. The thrashing today wasn’t just against our rivals, but relegation rivals and at home. It’s horrendous.

Also looking at some of the names even most of them have never managed in football again GTFC is a managerial grave yard.
I think we have a reputation as that in the game so we either get managers with no experience, urine heads or managers who have been out the game for a while.

One thing not factored in this is context. Only 4 games ago, we lost Conteh, our ball playing DM who had pretty solid stats. We had one game with Green that went badly, then Thompson came in, we did well. We played top of the league, out of the league budget Stockport and were undone by individual errors (Clifton/Gnahoua, Holahan, Maher/Cartwright), then we're without Thompson again, and it's bad.

Hunt has just come back into contention (returned to training after injury). He hasn't really had time with his squad to execute any form of plan.

Things are shite right now, but timing is also a key thing. Hurst for his last game had lost faith in Eastwood and brought in Cartwright, and the fruits of that were not realised under him. Vernam was unavailable under Hurst, which didn't help him also.

In 2 weeks, we'll likely have a match sharp Vernam, Hunt back, new signings settled, and I'm hoping Thompson fit. Doing nothing doesn't mean there is no change, it is the exact situation any new gaffer would have. DA has shown as recently as Accrington that there is green shoots. We also went toe to toe with Notts County and a solid performance against MK.

Numbers don't always give full context and with any sacking decision, you cannot go purely by stats, but on the question, in 2 weeks time with exactly the same squad, will we have more chance of picking up points with a new manager or this one.

I personally think we can still pick up those points. We aren't going to be winning games 1 - 0. We just do not have the squad for it. So we'll be losing more, and winning some, and we just got to get enough of those wins on the board to keep our distance. I'm in the minority, and obviously as an exile, I couldn't attend today, so didn't have the same bruises as many have had.

I've also had a 90 minute drive home followed by another 45 minutes to go see a band in Leicester. Prior to being entertained and melodiously soothed by three very enthusiastic and happy Dutch people, I wanted him sacked and evicted from the Town boundaries immediately. One gig and a whisky later I can objectively say I just want him sacked. Tomorrow or Monday would be fine.

It doesn't matter how detailed your recruitment process is there is always the risk of selecting the wrong candidate. You can have multi level interviews, psychometric testing, role play observation and tarot card readings and you can still get it wrong.

Artell has proven to be the wrong candidate. Having been here for the best part of three months and 12 games there has been an objectively proven decline in performance with nothing indicating that this will change.
Subjectively, every time the ball comes in our box now I think we're likely to concede. We are defensively inept, organisationally chaotic and solution deficient.

I think our current owners are getting quite a lot of undeserved stick for this. Personally, I hope they do find a way to;
- Deal with the excrement that's being thrown their way;
- Continue to develop the infrastructure that might allow this club some degree of success and sustainability in the future;
- Own the mistake that's been made and rectify it at the earliest opportunity.

At this stage I'm wondering whether we start another fundraiser and offer some temporarily out of work Championship level manager £10,000 a game until the end of season on the proviso we stay up. £150,000 for 3 months work might be peanuts to them but I've had another whisky and am recognising the absolute desperation of our situation. Please, not again.

Quoted from AncientExiledMariner

One thing not factored in this is context. Only 4 games ago, we lost Conteh, our ball playing DM who had pretty solid stats. We had one game with Green that went badly, then Thompson came in, we did well. We played top of the league, out of the league budget Stockport and were undone by individual errors (Clifton/Gnoahoua, Holahan, Maher/Cartwright), then we're without Thompson again, and it's bad.

Hunt has just come back into contention (returned to training after injury). He hasn't really had time with his squad to execute any form of plan.

Things are shite right now, but timing is also a key thing. Hurst for his last game had lost faith in Eastwood and brought in Cartwright, and the fruits of that were not realised under him. Vernam was unavailable under Hurst, which didn't help him also.

In 2 weeks, we'll likely have a match sharp Vernam, Hunt back, new signings settled, and I'm hoping Thompson fit. Doing nothing doesn't mean there is no change, it is the exact situation any new gaffer would have. DA has shown as recently as Accrington that there is green shoots. We also went toe to toe with Notts County and a solid performance against MK.

Numbers don't always give full context and with any sacking decision, you cannot go purely by stats, but on the question, in 2 weeks time with exactly the same squad, will we have more chance of picking up points with a new manager or this one.

I personally think we can still pick up those points. We aren't going to be winning games 1 - 0. We just do not have the squad for it. So we'll be losing more, and winning some, and we just got to get enough of those wins on the board to keep our distance. I'm in the minority, and obviously as an exile, I couldn't attend today, so didn't have the same bruises as many have had.

I presume exile means you haven’t been to recent games. A pair of eyes beats stats and any attempt at semi rational analysis from a distance..

Quoted from HerveJosse

I presume exile means you haven’t been to recent games. A pair of eyes beats stats and any attempt at semi rational analysis from a distance..

To counter that, not being at the games distances myself from the emotional merry go round where the manager alternates between being good and should immediately be sacked right now every week. The one where match day everything is a catastrophe and 2 days later, we get the "maybe I overreacted" posts. Most at the game blamed Cartwright for the goal when Maher refusing the pass put us in the excrement. Most who go to the game are desperate for Holahan to start despite the fact his half-arsed defending has played a part in several goals this season. Going to games can help, but it seems I'm distanced from the hive mind right now.

Of course, the fact you went for the ad hominem attack shows you are struggling to counter my points.

Quoted from AncientExiledMariner

To counter that, not being at the games distances myself from the emotional merry go round where the manager alternates between being good and should immediately be sacked right now every week. The one where match day everything is a catastrophe and 2 days later, we get the "maybe I overreacted" posts. Most at the game blamed Cartwright for the goal when Maher refusing the pass put us in the excrement. Most who go to the game are desperate for Holahan to start despite the fact his half-arsed defending has played a part in several goals this season. Going to games can help, but it seems I'm distanced from the hive mind right now.

Of course, the fact you went for the ad hominem attack shows you are struggling to counter my points.

But people aren't overreacting on this occasion. I live in Australia, so really detached from the emotional merry-go-round that can sometimes kick in and there are plenty of times when what you're saying is true. Not this time.

There will be no one posting that they overreacted in a couple of days time. We lost 5-1 at home to another relegation candidate. It wasn't a one-off either. The result fell within what is the worst run of games I can remember as a Grimsby fan. We've had some dross over the years but we've genuinely reached new levels of ineptitude. 22 goals conceded in 6 games is staggeringly bad.

Quoted from Balthazar Bullitt

I've also had a 90 minute drive home followed by another 45 minutes to go see a band in Leicester. Prior to being entertained and melodiously soothed by three very enthusiastic and happy Dutch people, I wanted him sacked and evicted from the Town boundaries immediately. One gig and a whisky later I can objectively say I just want him sacked. Tomorrow or Monday would be fine.

It doesn't matter how detailed your recruitment process is there is always the risk of selecting the wrong candidate. You can have multi level interviews, psychometric testing, role play observation and tarot card readings and you can still get it wrong.

Artell has proven to be the wrong candidate. Having been here for the best part of three months and 12 games there has been an objectively proven decline in performance with nothing indicating that this will change.
Subjectively, every time the ball comes in our box now I think we're likely to concede. We are defensively inept, organisationally chaotic and solution deficient.

I think our current owners are getting quite a lot of undeserved stick for this. Personally, I hope they do find a way to;
- Deal with the excrement that's being thrown their way;
- Continue to develop the infrastructure that might allow this club some degree of success and sustainability in the future;
- Own the mistake that's been made and rectify it at the earliest opportunity.

At this stage I'm wondering whether we start another fundraiser and offer some temporarily out of work Championship level manager £10,000 a game until the end of season on the proviso we stay up. £150,000 for 3 months work might be peanuts to them but I've had another whisky and am recognising the absolute desperation of our situation. Please, not again.

Of course the owners deserve stick.

Why should they get away from being responsible for the current excrement show. Fenty always did (and still does)

Quoted from AncientExiledMariner

One thing not factored in this is context. Only 4 games ago, we lost Conteh, our ball playing DM who had pretty solid stats. We had one game with Green that went badly, then Thompson came in, we did well. We played top of the league, out of the league budget Stockport and were undone by individual errors (Clifton/Gnahoua, Holahan, Maher/Cartwright), then we're without Thompson again, and it's bad.

Hunt has just come back into contention (returned to training after injury). He hasn't really had time with his squad to execute any form of plan.

Things are shite right now, but timing is also a key thing. Hurst for his last game had lost faith in Eastwood and brought in Cartwright, and the fruits of that were not realised under him. Vernam was unavailable under Hurst, which didn't help him also.

In 2 weeks, we'll likely have a match sharp Vernam, Hunt back, new signings settled, and I'm hoping Thompson fit. Doing nothing doesn't mean there is no change, it is the exact situation any new gaffer would have. DA has shown as recently as Accrington that there is green shoots. We also went toe to toe with Notts County and a solid performance against MK.

Numbers don't always give full context and with any sacking decision, you cannot go purely by stats, but on the question, in 2 weeks time with exactly the same squad, will we have more chance of picking up points with a new manager or this one.

I personally think we can still pick up those points. We aren't going to be winning games 1 - 0. We just do not have the squad for it. So we'll be losing more, and winning some, and we just got to get enough of those wins on the board to keep our distance. I'm in the minority, and obviously as an exile, I couldn't attend today, so didn't have the same bruises as many have had.

A 0-0 draw with Accrington, a draw with MK Dons three months ago and drawing against Notts County who are dropping like a stone and have one of the worst defences in the league is not what I would call green shoots. The reality is that the players aren’t good enough but that is compounded by them clearly not playing for Artell. There is no collective ownership, there is no sign of any fight or desire to get back in to these games. Other than Vernam and Rose yesterday it was just a collective shrug from the players, resigned to another pathetic home defeat to a below average side. If you’ve not witnessed how bad we are in the flesh then no offence but I don’t think you quite realise how alarming the body language is from this team. Sticking with Artell is a sure fire way to get relegated.

About the only metric that hasn't dropped is supporters. People are still turning up because they love their team and want to play their part. Sack him now and the aberration will be forgiven if we get away with relegation. Keep him a game longer and you will be condemned for ever more.

Including temporary managers we have had 52 managers (counting Hurst, and Hurst/Scott as two different managers.  On a win% basis, Artell is ranked at 49th.  As the list includes managers who have played under the 2pts for a win, and some on the 3 pts for a win in these rankings he comes 49th (3/win) and 50th (2/win).

In viewing those figures we need to bear in mind that he is operating in the fourth tier, whereas many those above him in the rankings operated in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd tiers.

The statistics (I thought our owners were statistics-driven?) demonstrate that unfortunately he must go, and quickly.

I know this is repetitive but. Putting everything else aside I just cannot see how a manager in the pro game who has presided over the following sequence of home results can survive
2-1
1-2
1-6
5-5
1-2
1-3
1-5

The body language of the subs warming up yesterday was very telling. No intensity, laughing and joking, even Gav who is a top pro (albeit not the best player) didn’t look bothered.

Regarding Alex Hunt. He isn’t injured and was apparently told he could leave. That was a month after he was described as ‘pivotal’ to the way we play after he bossed Crewe. Purely by chance (!!), Conteh then had a fantastic game against Notts and put himself in the shop window and the consequence is that we end up with yesterday’s midfield who wouldn’t look out of place in Conference North.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

The body language of the subs warming up yesterday was very telling. No intensity, laughing and joking, even Gav who is a top pro (albeit not the best player) didn’t look bothered.

Regarding Alex Hunt. He isn’t injured and was apparently told he could leave. That was a month after he was described as ‘pivotal’ to the way we play after he bossed Crewe. Purely by chance (!!), Conteh then had a fantastic game against Notts and put himself in the shop window and the consequence is that we end up with yesterday’s midfield who wouldn’t look out of place in Conference North.

Fuckinghell, I think you're looking into it a little too deeply reading in to how the subs warm up. They just have to warm up ffs

Quoted from Poojah

I can’t lie, leaving BP today I was as angry as I have been in a long, long time about those in black and white shirts, Danny Rose 100% excepted and absolved of any association with today’s latest shít show. He deserves to be a part of this no more than the fans do.

But having had the benefit of a 90 minute drive home, I’ve been able to give the situation some thought and consideration with with most of the raw emotion taken out of the equation. So let me start by saying that I think Dave Artell is probably a lovely bloke; he’s had some incredibly tough, even tragic events to contend with in his short time at the club and he’s handled them with compassion and dignity. Good on him for that.

But we are now, as a club, in a real pickle, and 21 goals conceded in 5 home games is a simply ridiculous stat that suggests something is seriously amiss somewhere. I want to make an objective assessment of the state of things; no aggression, no insults, just facts and figures. Spoiler alert; it ain’t good.

Let’s be fair though, the reason we were looking for a manager back in November is because Hurst had struggled to get a tune out of the team. So Artell inherited something somewhat dysfunctional, I think we can agree on that. The last few weeks under Hurst were not good, and it’s important not to re-write history. Here’s Hurst’s high-level record this season when he was sacked, incidentally after we played Donny. GF = “goals for”, GA = “goals against”.

Win % - 18.8%
PPG - 0.88
GF / game - 1.25
GA / game - 1.63

That’s not a great record by any stretch of the imagination, and it’s not surprising that it cost Hurst his job. On average, we were losing games by 0.38 goals.

And so we looked to Dave Artell to improve our fortunes. Let’s have a look at his record to date:

Win % - 15.4%
PPG - 0.77
GF / game - 1.31
GA / game - 2.13

Credit where it is due, one of the metrics has improved. Under Artell, we’ve scored 0.06 goals per game than we did under Hurst this season. But that marginal improvement is absolutely dwarfed by what’s happened up the other end - under Artell we’re conceding 0.5 goals more per game than under the manager who was sacked. And that’s before you consider that over our last 6 games, we’ve conceded 3.5 goals per game on average, despite a clean sheet in one of those matches.

Ultimately, under Artell we’re winning a markedly fewer % of games, picking up less points on average than the man he replaced, and losing games by a much larger average margin (0.82 vs 0.38 ). Of course, comparing against Hurst is a small sample, but we’re in luck - one thing this club hasn’t lacked this century is struggling managers, so let’s have a look at Artell’s record versus every Town manager either sacked or whom resigned amidst poor performance (win ratio followed by points per game).

Dave Artell - 15.4% - 0.77
Lennie Lawrence - 28.5% - 1.32
Paul Groves - 23.3% - 1.00
Nicky Law - 25.0% - 0.92
Graham Rodger - 23.5% - 0.94
Alan Buckley iii - 34.0% - 1.44
Mike Newell - 24.5% - 0.94
Neil Woods - 25.4% - 1.18
Marcus Bignot - 33.3% - 1.26
Russell Slade ii - 25.6% - 1.05
Michael Jolley - 36.7% - 1.30
I*n H******y - 28.9% - 1.11
Paul Hurst ii - 37.7% - 1.37

It’s important to remember that not all of those managerial tenures were wholly awful. Hurst of course delivered tangible success before he got sacked, Jolley did ok with his hands behind his back, and Buckley’s third reign looks a lot better in statistical terms than it might live in our collective memories. But there are also some incredibly shambolic efforts in there too.

Nicky Law. Graham Rodger. Newell. Bignot. All of them had their own, uniquely shambolic qualities to what were throughly disastrous times in the Town dugout. And yet Artell’s record is meaningfully worse than all of them. That is quite profound.

Marcus Bignot, remembered quite correctly as a complete buffoon, had a win % well over 2x better than Artell’s. In fact, Artell would have to win the next 2 just to match Nicky Law’s win ratio. And that doesn’t even seem remotely likely. In figurative terms, Artell is the smallest of the dwarves, at a time when we need giants.

I’m not overly keen on calling for people to lose their job, but what we are witnessing in the here and now is outstandingly poor in the context of the club’s recent history; a recent history which has in itself been outstandingly poor.

This club, this town, cannot afford to lose its league status for a third time. To do so would be absolutely catastrophic. It has to be recognised that conceding 21 goals in 6 games, or 5 home games, is not normal. It can’t be acceptable.

We have some huge fixtures coming up, not least our next home game against Forest Green in two weeks. A change in first-team management needs to be made immediately in order for any successor, temporary or otherwise, to prepare accordingly.

I have nothing against Dave Artell personally, but the stats bear it out.

This can’t continue.

Have to say I completely agree. It is extremely rare I will call for a manager to go and never in such a short space of time, but he's made us much worse.

Not only that he's had the luxury of having players fit that Hurst never had. I think if Pyke, Vernam and Wilson had all been fit at the same time under Hurst we would've done much better.

The players are not well organised, they don't know their roles and we are getting bumfucked every week. It's as bad as I've ever seen it.

He came in to a team that was improved by the caretakers who were pragmatic but aimed to play a bit more on the front foot than Hurst, in those games we were well organised and the players knew their jobs. That organisation has been eroded.
He must be sacked.

Getting rid of Hurst was not objective, it made sense in that we were crap, but the statement was accompanied by the data showing that we're not doing as badly as results suggested. Last time we heard that statement it was referring to the oracle like forethought that kept Hurst through a bad run in NL and resulted in us getting promoted.

I never understood this contradiction and never understood the statement about them talking about sacking him for 6 weeks, when 6 weeks earlier we'd played well against Bradford and were almost in the playoffs. But if you'd been thinking about it for 6 weeks, why wouldn't you have considered who you might want as a replacement? I'm not saying approach and hire the next day a la Slade ii. But we're told this was the first choice appointment, yet it took 7 weeks to sort out after 6 weeks of thinking you're going to need to do it.

It all sounds like total balderdash that fit a narrative created with hindsight.

Most sane people listening to Artell for 10 minutes realise he’s a total fraud and just talks in corporate phrases.

Quoted from Yoda

Most sane people listening to Artell for 10 minutes realise he’s a total fraud and just talks in corporate phrases.

And that is exactly how he got the job,he told the owners exactly what they wanted to hear,and they fell for it hook line and sinker.There are several people in instilled in the club who are not up to their jobs.

Quoted from HerveJosse

I presume exile means you haven’t been to recent games. A pair of eyes beats stats and any attempt at semi rational analysis from a distance..

True point i too am an Exile I have to listen to commentary's and Sunday mornings watch highlights on youtube etc, to give  true opinion.
See you at Wimbledon, Sutton Gillingham  and dread Crawley to see with my own eyes
UTM

Quoted from friskneymariner

And that is exactly how he got the job,he told the owners exactly what they wanted to hear,and they fell for it hook line and sinker.There are several people in instilled in the club who are not up to their jobs.

I said it to GranthamMariner when he was appointed...

Artell would have gone through all Stockwood's articles in the Graudian before his interview and would have told Stockwood everything he wanted to hear and more.

How the bloody hell is he still in charge this morning.

Quoted from Hagrid

How the bloody hell is he still in charge this morning.

Data still being examined  

Quoted from MuddyWaters

Data still being examined  

Data has arrived.

Is the question, have we a better chance of staying with or without DA?

And how will this influence DA's future if we stay up?

Quoted from mariner91

A 0-0 draw with Accrington, a draw with MK Dons three months ago and drawing against Notts County who are dropping like a stone and have one of the worst defences in the league is not what I would call green shoots. The reality is that the players aren’t good enough but that is compounded by them clearly not playing for Artell. There is no collective ownership, there is no sign of any fight or desire to get back in to these games. Other than Vernam and Rose yesterday it was just a collective shrug from the players, resigned to another pathetic home defeat to a below average side. If you’ve not witnessed how bad we are in the flesh then no offence but I don’t think you quite realise how alarming the body language is from this team. Sticking with Artell is a sure fire way to get relegated.

I've seen enough body language on highlights, and I am concerned. Some of those players I'd like to not see wear a town shirt again, but if it is a professionalism problem, you cannot allow them to get another manager sacked. We don't want to become a Man Utd type problem. A manager has to hold them to account over summer transfer windows when their contracts run out. Ultimately, you've got to pick the 11 working hard enough and hope being out the team is a kick up the bottom some of them need.

I wouldn't fault Clifton for effort. Hume has looked like a bit of a beast at times, but is rusty. Thompson has looked top notch at times but unfortunately was unavailable and we already know how Green did in that role just 2 or 3 games ago. The Fishy darling Hunt is back in contention after returning to training.

Quoted from AncientExiledMariner

I've seen enough body language on highlights, and I am concerned. Some of those players I'd like to not see wear a town shirt again, but if it is a professionalism problem, you cannot allow them to get another manager sacked. We don't want to become a Man Utd type problem. A manager has to hold them to account over summer transfer windows when their contracts run out. Ultimately, you've got to pick the 11 working hard enough and hope being out the team is a kick up the bottom some of them need.

I wouldn't fault Clifton for effort. Hume has looked like a bit of a beast at times, but is rusty. Thompson has looked top notch at times but unfortunately was unavailable and we already know how Green did in that role just 2 or 3 games ago. The Fishy darling Hunt is back in contention after returning to training.

I don’t think I’ve ever read a more ill informed post on here.

You wouldn’t fault Clifton for effort? What about a lack of ability then.
Thompson has looked top notch at times? Yes, he did OK for an hour at Accrington then ran out of gas and was subsequently woeful against Stockport.
Hume a beast? Never in a million years.
How did Green do in what role? We’re his only EFL club and, he’ll end up back in non league either here or somewhere else.
Hunt is a technically excellent footballer who is probably a bit weak but has been training for the last six weeks.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

I don’t think I’ve ever read a more ill informed post on here.

You wouldn’t fault Clifton for effort? What about a lack of ability then.
Thompson has looked top notch at times? Yes, he did OK for an hour at Accrington then ran out of gas and was subsequently woeful against Stockport.
Hume a beast? Never in a million years.
How did Green do in what role? We’re his only EFL club and, he’ll end up back in non league either here or somewhere else.
Hunt is a technically excellent footballer who is probably a bit weak but has been training for the last six weeks.

Ill informed because I'm not negative? I think I'm going to opt out in future and leave this place a pitt of negativity. Guessing people want this place to be twitter. Attack anyone who disagrees. Must defend hive mind.

When we get players with ability and effort, I'll be calling for Clifton to be on the bench, but until we get that luxury, he's one of our best 3 midfield options. There are plenty more than deserve criticism that that.
Hume won us the penalty and had some pretty solid attacks. He's clearly rusty and getting into it, but he's demonstrated some ability.
Green wasn't good in DM in a passing team. Didn't think I had to spell that one out. The last 2 games he's started, we've been dreadful.
SP implied something very different about Hunt. I think I'll trust SP on this one.

Quoted from AncientExiledMariner

Ill informed because I'm not negative? I think I'm going to opt out in future and leave this place a pitt of negativity. Guessing people want this place to be twitter. Attack anyone who disagrees. Must defend hive mind.

When we get players with ability and effort, I'll be calling for Clifton to be on the bench, but until we get that luxury, he's one of our best 3 midfield options. There are plenty more than deserve criticism that that.
Hume won us the penalty and had some pretty solid attacks. He's clearly rusty and getting into it, but he's demonstrated some ability.
Green wasn't good in DM in a passing team. Didn't think I had to spell that one out. The last 2 games he's started, we've been dreadful.
SP implied something very different about Hunt. I think I'll trust SP on this one.

Vernam won us the penalty

Quoted from MuddyWaters

I don’t think I’ve ever read a more ill informed post on here.

You wouldn’t fault Clifton for effort? What about a lack of ability then.
Thompson has looked top notch at times? Yes, he did OK for an hour at Accrington then ran out of gas and was subsequently woeful against Stockport.
Hume a beast? Never in a million years.
How did Green do in what role? We’re his only EFL club and, he’ll end up back in non league either here or somewhere else.
Hunt is a technically excellent footballer who is probably a bit weak but has been training for the last six weeks.

I know we all see the game differently but I have to agree with you re Ancients post which, IMO, is laughable. Thompson was abject against Stockport and rightly substituted at half time which, if rumours are believed, led to an argument and being left out of the squad. All round not good for morale.

I’m also puzzled as to why Arthur did the pre match interview and was then omitted from the squad, very odd!!

Quoted from MuddyWaters

The body language of the subs warming up yesterday was very telling. No intensity, laughing and joking, even Gav who is a top pro (albeit not the best player) didn’t look bothered.

Regarding Alex Hunt. He isn’t injured and was apparently told he could leave. That was a month after he was described as ‘pivotal’ to the way we play after he bossed Crewe. Purely by chance (!!), Conteh then had a fantastic game against Notts and put himself in the shop window and the consequence is that we end up with yesterday’s midfield who wouldn’t look out of place in Conference North.

I seem to recall he told some players in January that their contracts would not be renewed and could leave if they wanted. He did not name names but it's not an ideal situation to have been told you're no good and then expected to play well. It must be demoralising for them knowing that regardless of what they do they've lost their current job. The obvious one is Wilson who chose to leave but the paperwork didn't hit in time. As you have mentioned above the rumour are the same for Hunt, but how many others?

All this is not conducive to making a happy squad full of team spirit. Do or die attitude, but pulling out of tackles as mentioned on other threads.

I've looked at the important data, and....... we're third bottom.

When he arrived Artell said he’d tell people who he didn’t want that they could leave in the Jan window, maybe letting the influential club captain go wasn’t the best move he could have made in terms of squad confidence.

Quoted from JK47

I've looked at the important data, and....... we're third bottom.

That is so, so true! You can read and analyse the data till the cows come home and say we are not as bad as our position suggests but it is all nonsense.

You never hear of any notice being taken of data when you are 10 points clear at the top, if it shows actually you are not playing that well, do you?!

Just done some quick maths. If we were to project Artell’s average PPG across a whole 46 game season, we’d finish on 35 points. That would have seen us finish (comfortably) bottom of League 2 and relegated last year.

Project Artell’s average PPG since he started to make his changes to his team in the January transfer window across a whole season and it’s even worse. We would have finished lower than Scunny in the year they dropped out of the Football League.

When he joined us he described us as a bit ‘meh’, I wonder how he would describe us now?

Quoted from oochiad

When he joined us he described us as a bit ‘meh’, I wonder how he would describe us now?

Danny Rose has told him it's better. He must think we are all stupid if we believe that Danny Rose genuinely said that.

Quoted from jamesgtfc

Danny Rose has told him it's better. He must think we are all stupid if we believe that Danny Rose genuinely said that.

Rose looked absolutely fúcking livid towards the end of yesterday’s game. There was a moment, when the crowd started with the “you’re not fit to wear the shirt” chant, that he looked to the lower Findus as if to say “are you for fúcking real, I’m running my árse into the ground”. Those in the stands were very quick to point out “no, not you Danny, every cúnt BUT you”.

At the end of the game, a handful of Town players attempted to half-heartedly clap the Town fans left in the ground, only to be told to where to go. Rose came over alone, offered an apologetic hand and received a clap back for his efforts. Again, those there, myself included, made it absolutely crystal clear that he was not being held accountable for what was going down. He has been a solitary shining light in this bleakest of seasons.

He just looked so, so fúcked off. We only have to watch this circus once or twice a week. He has to be a part of it every moment of his working life.

I feel for the lad, I really do. As much as I’d love to see him in a Town shirt next season, I almost hope for his sake that he isn’t. He doesn’t deserve to be a part of this.

Quoted from jamesgtfc

Danny Rose has told him it's better. He must think we are all stupid if we believe that Danny Rose genuinely said that.

He didn’t say which Danny Rose. The one he asked had a tinfoil hat that had slipped down and blocked his view.

Wouldn't be surprised if Danny Rose has a relegation release clause

Quoted from Southwark Mariner

Wouldn't be surprised if Danny Rose has a relegation release clause

I hope Rodger and Mullarkey have.....

BTW, anyone been to Cheapside this morning?

Wouldn’t be any point. They’re not in today. They were in yesterday morning.

Quoted from chaos33

Wouldn’t be any point. They’re not in today. They were in yesterday morning.

I went yesterday morning and people were there but it wasn’t the first team, going to have a drive past shortly…..

At the training ground and nothing much happening on the pitches but a fair few cars in the carpark, 12 to be precise.

Quoted from oochiad

I went yesterday morning and people were there but it wasn’t the first team, going to have a drive past shortly…..

Staff and players were in at some point yesterday.

Quoted from Balthazar Bullitt

I've also had a 90 minute drive home followed by another 45 minutes to go see a band in Leicester. Prior to being entertained and melodiously soothed by three very enthusiastic and happy Dutch people, I wanted him sacked and evicted from the Town boundaries immediately. One gig and a whisky later I can objectively say I just want him sacked. Tomorrow or Monday would be fine.

It doesn't matter how detailed your recruitment process is there is always the risk of selecting the wrong candidate. You can have multi level interviews, psychometric testing, role play observation and tarot card readings and you can still get it wrong.

Artell has proven to be the wrong candidate. Having been here for the best part of three months and 12 games there has been an objectively proven decline in performance with nothing indicating that this will change.
Subjectively, every time the ball comes in our box now I think we're likely to concede. We are defensively inept, organisationally chaotic and solution deficient.

I think our current owners are getting quite a lot of undeserved stick for this. Personally, I hope they do find a way to;
- Deal with the excrement that's being thrown their way;
- Continue to develop the infrastructure that might allow this club some degree of success and sustainability in the future;
- Own the mistake that's been made and rectify it at the earliest opportunity.

At this stage I'm wondering whether we start another fundraiser and offer some temporarily out of work Championship level manager £10,000 a game until the end of season on the proviso we stay up. £150,000 for 3 months work might be peanuts to them but I've had another whisky and am recognising the absolute desperation of our situation. Please, not again.

Were they good? Just been announced for Docks.