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 The Grim Reaper |
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| Jesus wants me to be a sunbeam |
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| golfer |
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Does that mean we can pay off our loans, repay the bank, buy a new ground and start looking for a 35year old centre forward from the National League,and of course have the price of Bovril reduced for pensioners?
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| TheRealJohnLewis |
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Does that mean we can pay off our loans, repay the bank, buy a new ground and start looking for a 35year old centre forward from the National League,and of course have the price of Bovril reduced for pensioners?
Bank loans have now been paid off, along with 200k of Fenty's loans. |
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| Cloudy |
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Bank loans have now been paid off, along with 200k of Fenty's loans.
Yes I am pleased that JF has been able to get some of his loans back reducing our reliance on him slightly |
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| GrimRob |
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826k from player trading obviously enough to fund the massive coneyerbelt of players that bp has been for the last year. We can't afford to keep the turnover of players we had.
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| 'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.
~ Alfred Lord Tennyson
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| golfer |
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Accounts are only upto May-think our summer expenses will be in next years accountsbut they are obviously something to be pleased with. Have just glanced through them but does it mean that once loans paid off and we go into the black we will have to start paying tax on our assets eg Findus stand which at present are frozen assets?
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| HertsGTFC |
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Fixed or frozen asset?
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| "Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style  |
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| promotion plaice |
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Also in todays Telegraph.... John Fenty on relocation after the club release finances for this year. Mention of a significant depreciation in the value of Blundell Park....... and regarding the new stadium there have been knocks and setbacks along the way but the developer remains bouyed-up and they are still confident of delivering hugely positive news. http://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.....ancial-future-709667 |
| When Leeds trainer Les Cocker was once told Norman Hunter had broken a leg, he asked: “Whose is it?” |
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| SheepGTFC |
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Quoted Text
Additionally, the Club has invested substantially in the infrastructure for the Youth Academy and training facilities, in the form of changing rooms, technical equipment, staffing levels and the overall facilities.
Nice to see. Can't imagine how old some this stuff would have been. |
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| Jaws |
| November 1, 2017, 10:35am |
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So if we hadn't sold Bogle we'd have been just the same as our last season in the Conference?
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| golfer |
| November 1, 2017, 11:31am |
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So if we hadn't sold Bogle we'd have been just the same as our last season in the Conference?
Not really we would have been promoted, Pearson still here and Bogle worth £2million and crowds double and everybody leaving B P with a smile . |
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| headingly_mariner |
| November 1, 2017, 12:58pm |
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Those loans should be written off.
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| Supersixty |
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£200k repayment to JF or Mr Mullen repaid ? guess we will never know
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| moosey_club |
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Can someone fluent in accountants speak please translate the club statement and accounts and answer the following to a simpleton...
How much real debt is the club actually in ? Ie - the total sum amount if everyone ( whether individual, institution or government department ) who is entitled to have monies repayed demands it back tomorrow.
Thanks in advance.
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| golfer |
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I read £7 000 000 minus £200K
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| MuddyWaters |
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Interesting to note that the media revenue increased by £700k and matchday (gate receipts) stayed virtually the same.
Would be interested to know whose director loans were paid back - suspect it's a former director.
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| Bigdog |
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Main points page by page from the accounts from a layman’s point of view. Hope it helps anyone who can’t be assed to read through the full accounts. Willing to be corrected by anyone on anything.. I'm no expert.
PAGE 2
On return to the Football League, turnover was up by solely the £600k payment from the EFL. Even though home attendances were up by an average of 900 per game, there was no discernible increase in matchday income.
Bank loan of £300k paid off which has remained with the club in whichever form pre ITV Digital collapse.
Investment in youth and training facilities (as per EFL funding rules).
PAGE 3
Potential risks and uncertainties include “potential reliance on the company's principal shareholder to fund operations.” It’s even in the accounts as a weakness.
PAGE 4
Future developments – “The company will continue to invest prudently in the playing squad in order to remain an established EFL club, whilst also progressing it's plans for relocation to the new community stadium.” Invest isn’t really entirely accurate as it should be spend instead of invest. There is no fresh investment going into the club at all, the club is merely choosing how to spend income.
PAGE 5
Share capital – “During the year 24 ordinary shares at the value of £100 have been issued.” So, inward investment in the club for the year was £2400. That’s it, after regaining league status £2400. Either there’s a lack of interest in investing in the club or the club don’t want any or aren’t actively looking for any. This is surprising as it clearly states in these accounts on page two that reliance on the company's principal shareholder to fund operations is a risk.
PAGE 7
Going concern – “Although the company generated a trading profit, after tax, of £1,069,791 during the year ended 31st May 2017, at that date the company had net liabilities of £568,931. These conditions along with the other matters explained within the accounting policies to the financial statements, indicate the existence of a material uncertainty which may cast doubt about the company's ability to continue as a going concern.” Officially the books show that we still have an uncertain future.
PAGE 9
An operating profit of over £1/4m was made without the Bogle money. Including the Bogle sale net player trading income was £826k.
Accumulated losses stand at £3m which can be written off against any future profit. This isn’t debt that needs to be paid back. It’s actually the figure we are able to show as a profit over future years and not attract any Corporation Tax. ie no tax bill for this year’s profit, the profit is taken away from the previous years accumulated loss figure. If we make a loss next year the accumulated loss figure will go up accordingly.
PAGE 13
JF was paid back circa £200k in director’s loans. This underpinned the outstanding bank loan if I recall correctly. As a side note, I seem to remember Lee Mullen’s investment in the club was in shares not a loan. So the repayment of director’s loans has to be JF.
The bank was paid back £313k.
PAGE 16
For accounting purposes our players are valued at £0.
Commercial income reduced by £30k even though we returned to the Football League.
PAGE 17
Even though there was an increase of £470k in salaries, taking into account there was an increase of 7 full time employees and 9 part-time staff, it points to an increase of around 20% in playing budget when comparing League Two football to the Conference.
Directors were not paid anything other than expenses.
PAGE 19
Blundell Park’s value has reduced by nearly £1m in the past couple of years, down to £650k.
PAGE 21
JF’s director’s loan is £2m.
PAGE 23
Ultimate controlling party – “The company is considered to be controlled by Mr JS Fenty by reason of his shareholdings and financial commitment to the company.” There in black and white!
AGM 2016 - NOTES
“For many years director’s loans have been shown in the accounts as a long term liability on the basis that the board of directors consider that the loans are long term financing for the company and will not be repaid in the short term. As there are no set repayment terms for the loans the accounting standard requires them to be show as short term liabilities. Loans are still covered by the director’s protocol agreement.”
There is no doubt that the club runs a tight ship but there seems a lot a stagnation in the key areas of raising investment and marketing initiative.
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| KingstonMariner |
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I read £7 000 000 minus £200K
Don't know where you read that Golfer. Overall a good year financially. Our annual level of losses have been falling since the involvement of the Trust on the club board and now we're profit-making, even without the £826k profit on player trading. And even that player profit you could argue is down to the Trust because it involved the sale of you-know-who, signed with the proceeds of Operation Promotion. So a big thank you to Jon, and the Trust board for their quiet work to help get the club managed on a sensible footing. |
| Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same. |
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| moosey_club |
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PAGE 23
Ultimate controlling party – “The company is considered to be controlled by Mr JS Fenty by reason of his shareholdings and financial commitment to the company.” There in black and white!
.”
Absolute poppycock....we all know The Fishy runs GTFC...along with its other controlling interests in Radio Humberside and The Grimsby Evening Telegraph.  |
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| Davec |
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Going by the Summary by Bigdog does that mean we at most only got 826k for Bogle?? I hoped for atleast a million
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| Bigdog |
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Going by the Summary by Bigdog does that mean we at most only got 826k for Bogle?? I hoped for atleast a million
Without the detail, the figure is net.. ie Bogle transfer fee minus transfer fees we paid for players such as Asante, Jones and Osborne (if we did).. |
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| Mariner_09 |
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If memory serves me correctly ae actually paid fees for Browne, Bolarinwa, Berrett, Asante, Clements, Osborne and Jones so that will have eaten up a fair portion of cash I’d imagine. How much more did we spend on wages this year?
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| monkeyboy |
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So what is the club worth?
if i was to buy the club what is the balance to be payed, i presume first off JF 2mil loans plus whatever his shares are worth?
so seeing as the 800k from bogle was funded by the fans in operation promotion at an earlier stage i would like for JF to take the said 800k and remove some of the debt the club owes to him. this debt is as i see it one huge reason another investor would stay away from the club i.e. maybe mikeparker. the ross family whoever dont want to pay it. Cash out John boy. get gone.
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| headingly_mariner |
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So what is the club worth?
if i was to buy the club what is the balance to be payed, i presume first off JF 2mil loans plus whatever his shares are worth?
so seeing as the 800k from bogle was funded by the fans in operation promotion at an earlier stage i would like for JF to take the said 800k and remove some of the debt the club owes to him. this debt is as i see it one huge reason another investor would stay away from the club i.e. maybe mikeparker. the ross family whoever dont want to pay it. Cash out John boy. get gone.
Why should he get that money back? That money should be written off as a gesture of goodwill to the fans who sat through 3 relegations and 6 seasons in Non league. |
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| Vance Warner |
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Just read this on the telegraph website regarding Bogle
"However, the club are due no further payment as a result of his subsequent transfer to Cardiff City"
Am I right in thinking we had no proper sell on clause attached to this deal. If so what on earth were we playing at? 1 million sounds very nice but he could be worth ten times that in the next couple of years. I wonder if Wigan sold him early to avoid any sell on. Whatever the case it's a massive own goal.
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| KingstonMariner |
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Just read this on the telegraph website regarding Bogle
"However, the club are due no further payment as a result of his subsequent transfer to Cardiff City"
Am I right in thinking we had no proper sell on clause attached to this deal. If so what on earth were we playing at? 1 million sounds very nice but he could be worth ten times that in the next couple of years. I wonder if Wigan sold him early to avoid any sell on. Whatever the case it's a massive own goal.
I don't think was that the case VW. Because Bogle went to Cardiff for no more money than Wigan bought him for, we got no sell-on. Had he gone for more we would have had our sell-on fee. |
| Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same. |
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| Abdul19 |
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Quite. Percentage of profit, same as the Bennett deal I think.
Wigan would rather have made no profit on him, than 80% of a £5m (eg) profit? Makes no sense.
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| moosey_club |
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Quite. Percentage of profit, same as the Bennett deal I think.
Wigan would rather have made no profit on him, than 80% of a £5m (eg) profit? Makes no sense.
Wigan didnt fancy him and were happy to get their money back and move on, they couldnt have sold him for anymore at that stage as he had hardly played a game at his new level to show his value had risen since January and was also on the comeback from injury too. |
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| Abdul19 |
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Yeah I know (because you said last time ), it's in response to the theory that he was sold to avoid the sell on. |
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| MuddyWaters |
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Why should he get that money back?
That money should be written off as a gesture of goodwill to the fans who sat through 3 relegations and 6 seasons in Non league.
Seems a small price to pay for what the fans have/continue to put up with. |
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| Fish fryer |
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Dont forget we will also have had to pay Solihull for the sell on clause on Bogle
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| forza ivano |
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So all in all an excellent set of accounts, with the result that we are on a far more even keel than we have been for years. The other nice thing is that 3 factors could still be advantageous to us. A if we could get any sort of FA cup run b if dembele was to go, as rumoured, in January and c) if osbourne or a.n. Other comes through and we are able to sell them on. Would be lovely to get to a position in 12 months time where jf is more or less paid on and we are basically spending what we bring in
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| Vance Warner |
| November 1, 2017, 10:02pm |
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Whatever the details of any sell on getting one million for a striker now playing at the top of the Championship isn't amazing business
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| Grantley |
| November 1, 2017, 10:14pm |
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Why on earth would he write off £2million, that’s a huge amount of money.
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| Jordan Magrew |
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| forza ivano |
| November 1, 2017, 10:15pm |
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Whatever the details of any sell on getting one million for a striker now playing at the top of the Championship isn't amazing business
3 months into the season and bogle hasn't even played 2 hours of first team football. On that basis £1 million isn't a bad deal. You can argue anything with stats....... |
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| MuddyWaters |
| November 1, 2017, 10:17pm |
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Playing devil's advocate, a 600k in media turnover and a 1 million inward transfer fee should result in a profit. The question is whether that additional income should have been spent/saved/used to reduce the debt.
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| headingly_mariner |
| November 1, 2017, 10:47pm |
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Why on earth would he write off £2million, that’s a huge amount of money.
Is it right to burden a football club with debt to pay for a catalogue of poor decisions and mismanagement? Directors are no longer allowed to loan football clubs money, they have to gift it. This is becuase director loans are bad for football clubs. They burden clubs with debt and allow those lending the money too much power and control. The "benign" loans have meant that anyone else taking Grimsby Town on is an unrealistic prospect. They have held this club back. Having said all that it's great to see the club turn a profit. |
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| KingstonMariner |
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Playing devil's advocate, a 600k in media turnover and a 1 million inward transfer fee should result in a profit. The question is whether that additional income should have been spent/saved/used to reduce the debt.
Is that how much we get now through the League's telly deal? |
| Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same. |
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| HertsGTFC |
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So all in all an excellent set of accounts, with the result that we are on a far more even keel than we have been for years. The other nice thing is that 3 factors could still be advantageous to us. A if we could get any sort of FA cup run b if dembele was to go, as rumoured, in January and c) if osbourne or a.n. Other comes through and we are able to sell them on. Would be lovely to get to a position in 12 months time where jf is more or less paid on and we are basically spending what we bring in
I agree a decent set of numbers, it could of and has been a lot, lot worse. though clearly there is still a lot to do the "non chairman" and the board have overall taken a sensible view on things. Whats the January Dembelle rumor? |
| "Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style |
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| Tommy |
| November 2, 2017, 10:07am |
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Anything in there about compensation payment to us from Shrewsbury for taking Hurst/Doig?
They would've paid us and someone on the Shrewsbury forum reckons he's heard it was close to £250k.
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| "The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." |
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| jamesgtfc |
| November 2, 2017, 10:45am |
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Anything in there about compensation payment to us from Shrewsbury for taking Hurst/Doig?
They would've paid us and someone on the Shrewsbury forum reckons he's heard it was close to £250k.
I heard it was more like £90k. |
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| GrimRob |
| November 2, 2017, 10:52am |
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I heard it was more like £90k.
It's nothing like what is has actually cost us to appoint and sack two managers and two assisstants. Plus pay quite a few players who have hardly kicked a ball. If we had a smaller more settled squad it seems to me we could afford to splash out on a couple of top quality players. Our wage bill has been bloated for too long with quantity rather than quality. |
| 'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.
~ Alfred Lord Tennyson
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| ginnywings |
| November 2, 2017, 11:28am |
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Wasn't Hurst on a 6 month rolling contract? Shrewsbury would have had to pay just that wouldn't they, or am i missing something?
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| HertsGTFC |
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Wasn't Hurst on a 6 month rolling contract? Shrewsbury would have had to pay just that wouldn't they, or am i missing something?
And Bignot was near the end of his first 6 months so I doubt if he's have walked away with something huge to be honest. I am sure we could have binned the other 2 clots (Whilde & Moore) for failing to put the cones out in a straight line or something. Usually so I understand at this level at least if a manager has the rest of his deal paid up it's not in a lump sum it's month by month and when they get a new job the payments stop. |
| "Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style |
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| FishOutOfWater |
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Does it mention anything about Mighty.... doesn't that role provide some kind of income stream now as opposed to being a cost? |
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| Abdul19 |
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And Bignot was near the end of his first 6 months so I doubt if he's have walked away with something huge to be honest.
He'll have been owed 6 months worth wouldn't he (as he would if he'd been sacked in December, June or September)? |
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| HertsGTFC |
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He'll have been owed 6 months worth wouldn't he (as he would if he'd been sacked in December, June or September)?
Yeah quite possibly, the vagaries of rolling deals are beyond me TBH, listening to Martin Allen on the radio a few weeks ago he said it is not uncommon for NL, L2 and even some L1 manager to receive no pay off if the are sacked, I find that hard to believe though. |
| "Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style |
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| MuddyWaters |
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Yeah quite possibly, the vagaries of rolling deals are beyond me TBH, listening to Martin Allen on the radio a few weeks ago he said it is not uncommon for NL, L2 and even some L1 manager to receive no pay off if the are sacked, I find that hard to believe though.
Depends on the terms of his sacking - details of which appear to be sketchy - if he broke the terms of his contract, then it could easily have been nothing. |
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| monkeyboy |
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So if the loans are benign surely they are just now written off with debt owed? so why are they still an issue?
For me this is one BIG reason no one has come in to buy the club, im fairly certain there is and has been interest.
Mike Parker for instance would probably be willing to invest if Chairman Fenty was no longer in the picture. Shame it seems the Ross family dont seem to support the club in anyway really as it is part of the fabric of the town and lets face it it would be a drop in the ocean for them to own the club.
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| golfer |
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Is it possible for the major shareholder who is not the chairman for some reason to be voted off the board by other board members. It seems very strange that we never hear anything from the board members other than the NON Chairman-why is this.have they had tongues cut out ?
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| moosey_club |
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Is it possible for the major shareholder who is not the chairman for some reason to be voted off the board by other board members. It seems very strange that we never hear anything from the board members other than the NON Chairman-why is this.have they had tongues cut out ?
Vote him off , JF demands his loans back instantly , remaining directors have to scrape up 2m between them when ...i think from memory some have put only a few grand in to date.......nah......not going to happen. |
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| TAGG |
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Is it possible for the major shareholder who is not the chairman for some reason to be voted off the board by other board members. It seems very strange that we never hear anything from the board members other than the NON Chairman-why is this.have they had tongues cut out ?
Yep and they are in Fentys back pocket. |
| In his three stints as Grimsby Town manager spanning over 10 years the club was never relegated and he also guided them to three promotions.
Only 14 managers have reached 1,000 matches in charge of a Football League team by 1998 and Buckley is one of them.
GOD |
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| moosey_club |
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Does it mention anything about Mighty.... doesn't that role provide some kind of income stream now as opposed to being a cost?
Page 6 1 X sale of the Mighty Matchday Experience + £300 1 x specialist dry chemical cleaning of Mighty outfit - £350 |
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| Cloudy |
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Is it possible for the major shareholder who is not the chairman for some reason to be voted off the board by other board members. It seems very strange that we never hear anything from the board members other than the NON Chairman-why is this.have they had tongues cut out ?
JF has a controlling interest. In theory if all the other shareholders stuck together they could out vote him BUT many of the shareholders are deceased and JF holds the majority of the 'active' shares. The board have a policy that only one person speaks publicly and surprise surprise it is the non chairman |
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| Bigdog |
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Page 6
1 X sale of the Mighty Matchday Experience + £300
1 x specialist dry chemical cleaning of Mighty outfit - £350
Boardroom Matchday Experience pay £500 cash for the afternoon Fish n chips Drinks Watch the match Boardroom Control *£420 loan per day Choose how to spend £40m in turnover over 15 years Define the future of the club Hire the manager you want Final say on player acquisition Personal video messages Free EFL trips Free tickets and comps for family and mates to every home and away match Dance on the pitch at Wembley Deconstruct flags Swear at whoever you want Secure your position forever *Full cash refund upon football fortune Makes the matchday experience look a tad expensive.. |
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| 1mickylyons |
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Is it possible for the major shareholder who is not the chairman for some reason to be voted off the board by other board members. It seems very strange that we never hear anything from the board members other than the NON Chairman-why is this.have they had tongues cut out ?
Just playing Devil`s advocate maybe they think the Clubs being run in a fine and dandy way and all is well so they feel no need to say or do anything? On the other hand maybe you are right or perhaps they want to avoid making gaffes ala the NON Chairman? |
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| monkeyboy |
| November 3, 2017, 12:44pm |
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Vote him off , JF demands his loans back instantly , remaining directors have to scrape up 2m between them when ...i think from memory some have put only a few grand in to date.......nah......not going to happen.
But if they are benign then they theoretically dont exist anymore ? this is what i mean, the guy has everyone held to ransom and anyone wanting to really invest is held back by this ransom. He should write the loans off and put them to bed therefore if someone who is willing to heavilly invest can step forwards without losing 2 mill before they get started. |
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| Mariner_09 |
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If I’d have won (or even entered) that £141 million on Euromillions a few weeks ago, JF could happily have had £2m of it!
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| I've wasted my life in black and white, a pathetic act for a worthless cause |
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| Gaffer58 |
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I am not clever enough to understand how things work but, why do we not have an official chairman, what are Mr Fenty's and GTFC's pros and cons to the current setup. Anyone, maybe someone from the trust, who understands these things please explain.
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| moosey_club |
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But if they are benign then they theoretically dont exist anymore ? this is what i mean, the guy has everyone held to ransom and anyone wanting to really invest is held back by this ransom.
He should write the loans off and put them to bed therefore if someone who is willing to heavilly invest can step forwards without losing 2 mill before they get started.
Depends on your deifinition or understanding of the word benign. For this situation, based on previous quotes and statements from JF, i understand benign to mean; "they exist, they are on record, they are owed but would not be called in if it would harm the club" which i then interpret to mean... "the money i am owed will not be written off and if you want me out then whoever is taking over has to the have the funding to pay me off first and still have plenty left to finance the club otherwise i am going nowhere and neither is the debt i am owed" |
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| TheRealJohnLewis |
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There is NO such thing as a benign loan, this is something JF has made up. GTFC owe JF 2 million, interest free, with no agreed repayment plan.
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| monkeyboy |
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So like a malignant tumour the benign ones still need cutting out for the vessel to be classed as healthy!
So GTFC looks like a diseased body at the moment that requires a removal of a benign tumour.
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| headingly_mariner |
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Wish I could claim all the season ticket money I've put in back.
It's ludicrous that those loans exist and are being paid back.
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| KingstonMariner |
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CA Diary makes a good point about the Trust's donations over the years.So the Trust has made donations to the club > £250k. Mike Parker made the trust a donation to the Trust of £500k (worth of shares). And the Trust donated £200k of shares to John Fenty. John Fenty loaned the club money.
Anyone notice the odd one out?
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| Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same. |
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| monkeyboy |
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I bet mr Parker is not amused.
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| MuddyWaters |
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CA Diary makes a good point about the Trust's donations over the years.So the Trust has made donations to the club > £250k. Mike Parker made the trust a donation to the Trust of £500k (worth of shares). And the Trust donated £200k of shares to John Fenty. John Fenty loaned the club money.
Anyone notice the odd one out?
Well we can moan about it all we like - and we have - it states on the club's accounts that the club is controlled by JS Fenty. Until such time as some rich benefactor is prepared to pay off the loans created by poor decisions & mismanagement then we might as well stop wasting our breath because nothing changes. It's all well & good saying that prudent financial management has created the profit. More prudent football management might have stopped us getting to this situation in the first place. |
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| fleabag1970 |
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I will not step foot in BP untill JF is no longer part of the club ...... it's made me feel loads better ... you moaning lot should try it
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| ]Remember its just my opinion ..... It might not be true ............ |
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| Bigdog |
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CA Diary makes a good point about the Trust's donations over the years.So the Trust has made donations to the club > £250k. Mike Parker made the trust a donation to the Trust of £500k (worth of shares). And the Trust donated £200k of shares to John Fenty. John Fenty loaned the club money.
Anyone notice the odd one out?
I’m prepared to take the initial money JF put in as a good and generous thing to do. It was a major chunk as a percentage of his wealth. It plugged a gaping hole in the club’s finances and was most welcome. After three relegations and six years in non-league it does beg the question whether it was actually worth it. Would we have fallen so far if we had fallen into administration? Who knows? Did JF plug a gap before a bigger and better option came along? Again, who knows? His tenure has not been a qualified success, that’s a fact. From where we were, it could even be termed as disastrous. He’s not a slick operator, he’s not a PR man, he’s not a great motivator, from evidence he’s doesn’t seem have a great understanding of the game, he’s a bit stuck in the dark ages and hasn’t got a great rapport with the fans but he’s bloody good at balancing the books especially with Stephen Marley on board. Has he made the most of the club over the years or just been a reliable steward of finances? Is he what we need right now? Maybe for running a tight ship but there are so many areas where the club is deficient and could be made a whole lot better with a pooling of greater minds than JF. He is not a jack of all trades, he seems to be the master of one. So where are we today? We are definitely under invested. We are definitely less investable as the balance sheet stands with those loans. We can’t PR ourselves out of a plastic bag. The silence is deafening. Fans have seemed to become a hindrance rather than loyal customers that should be cherished. There is definitely disconnect, apathy and a massive chasm of mistrust circling around. After fifteen years is it morally wrong to still have a stranglehold on the club for £2m that needs to be paid back? This equates to loaning the club £420 per day. If someone came along to JF and said “Right JF, I’m going to loan the club £420 every day for fifteen years and I’m going to take over for that length of time.” He’d get laughed out the boardroom with JF saying “What difference is £420 a day going to make to a Football League club?” For loaning £2m, JF has had more than enough time of having the glory of calling all the shots. We need more money involved, we need more ability involved and we need the sterility to change. The question of the loan by JF is becoming more a question of morality year by year. It is time for him to step up and prove that he not using it as a weapon to remain in power and convert it into shares as well as giving the £200k shares back to the Trust. If he loves the club more than he loves running the club he should do it in a heartbeat and go out and attract investors who will add value to the board and share the responsibility. Surely after all this time he is not too blind to see his own shortcomings that we as paying fans all have to suffer at times. Kingston makes a good point and it’s a question of morality that JF needs to answer sooner or later.. |
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| Vance Warner |
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I’m prepared to take the initial money JF put in as a good and generous thing to do. It was a major chunk as a percentage of his wealth. It plugged a gaping hole in the club’s finances and was most welcome. After three relegations and six years in non-league it does beg the question whether it was actually worth it. Would we have fallen so far if we had fallen into administration? Who knows? Did JF plug a gap before a bigger and better option came along? Again, who knows?
His tenure has not been a qualified success, that’s a fact. From where we were, it could even be termed as disastrous. He’s not a slick operator, he’s not a PR man, he’s not a great motivator, from evidence he’s doesn’t seem have a great understanding of the game, he’s a bit stuck in the dark ages and hasn’t got a great rapport with the fans but he’s bloody good at balancing the books especially with Stephen Marley on board.
Has he made the most of the club over the years or just been a reliable steward of finances? Is he what we need right now? Maybe for running a tight ship but there are so many areas where the club is deficient and could be made a whole lot better with a pooling of greater minds than JF. He is not a jack of all trades, he seems to be the master of one.
So where are we today? We are definitely under invested. We are definitely less investable as the balance sheet stands with those loans. We can’t PR ourselves out of a plastic bag. The silence is deafening. Fans have seemed to become a hindrance rather than loyal customers that should be cherished. There is definitely disconnect, apathy and a massive chasm of mistrust circling around.
After fifteen years is it morally wrong to still have a stranglehold on the club for £2m that needs to be paid back? This equates to loaning the club £420 per day. If someone came along to JF and said “Right JF, I’m going to loan the club £420 every day for fifteen years and I’m going to take over for that length of time.” He’d get laughed out the boardroom with JF saying “What difference is £420 a day going to make to a Football League club?”
For £2m, JF has had more than enough time of having the glory of calling all the shots. We need more money involved, we need more ability involved and we need the sterility to change. The question of the loan by JF is becoming more a question of morality year by year. It is time for him to step up and prove that he not using it as a weapon to remain in power and convert it into shares. If he loves the club more than he loves running the club he should do it in a heartbeat and go out and attract investors who will add value to the board and share the responsibility. Surely after all this time he is not too blind to see his own shortcomings that we as paying fans all have to suffer.
Kingston makes a good point and it’s a question of morality that JF needs to answer sooner or later..
Excellent post. Anyone doubting JF's business acumen only needs to look at the position he's engineered for himself. |
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| MuddyWaters |
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Excellent post. Anyone doubting JF's business acumen only needs to look at the position he's engineered for himself.
No-one (to my knowledge) has ever doubted his ability to run a business, I don't think anyone has ever doubted his standing as a fan of Grimsby Town Football Club. What he has never proved is his ability to run a football club and seems destined to continue to do so in the absence of a viable alternative - a position he has engineered himself. |
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| KingstonMariner |
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Well we can moan about it all we like - and we have - it states on the club's accounts that the club is controlled by JS Fenty. Until such time as some rich benefactor is prepared to pay off the loans created by poor decisions & mismanagement then we might as well stop wasting our breath because nothing changes.
It's all well & good saying that prudent financial management has created the profit. More prudent football management might have stopped us getting to this situation in the first place.
I would argue that by and large neither happened before the Trust got on the board. Coincidence? Maybe. |
| Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same. |
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| Vance Warner |
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No-one (to my knowledge) has ever doubted his ability to run a business, I don't think anyone has ever doubted his standing as a fan of Grimsby Town Football Club. What he has never proved is his ability to run a football club and seems destined to continue to do so in the absence of a viable alternative - a position he has engineered himself.
No-one doubts that he was once a fan but I don't believe a fan would have made some of the decisions he has over the last few years. |
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| TAGG |
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I’m prepared to take the initial money JF put in as a good and generous thing to do. It was a major chunk as a percentage of his wealth. It plugged a gaping hole in the club’s finances and was most welcome. After three relegations and six years in non-league it does beg the question whether it was actually worth it. Would we have fallen so far if we had fallen into administration? Who knows? Did JF plug a gap before a bigger and better option came along? Again, who knows?
His tenure has not been a qualified success, that’s a fact. From where we were, it could even be termed as disastrous. He’s not a slick operator, he’s not a PR man, he’s not a great motivator, from evidence he’s doesn’t seem have a great understanding of the game, he’s a bit stuck in the dark ages and hasn’t got a great rapport with the fans but he’s bloody good at balancing the books especially with Stephen Marley on board.
Has he made the most of the club over the years or just been a reliable steward of finances? Is he what we need right now? Maybe for running a tight ship but there are so many areas where the club is deficient and could be made a whole lot better with a pooling of greater minds than JF. He is not a jack of all trades, he seems to be the master of one.
So where are we today? We are definitely under invested. We are definitely less investable as the balance sheet stands with those loans. We can’t PR ourselves out of a plastic bag. The silence is deafening. Fans have seemed to become a hindrance rather than loyal customers that should be cherished. There is definitely disconnect, apathy and a massive chasm of mistrust circling around.
After fifteen years is it morally wrong to still have a stranglehold on the club for £2m that needs to be paid back? This equates to loaning the club £420 per day. If someone came along to JF and said “Right JF, I’m going to loan the club £420 every day for fifteen years and I’m going to take over for that length of time.” He’d get laughed out the boardroom with JF saying “What difference is £420 a day going to make to a Football League club?”
For loaning £2m, JF has had more than enough time of having the glory of calling all the shots. We need more money involved, we need more ability involved and we need the sterility to change. The question of the loan by JF is becoming more a question of morality year by year. It is time for him to step up and prove that he not using it as a weapon to remain in power and convert it into shares as well as giving the £200k shares back to the Trust. If he loves the club more than he loves running the club he should do it in a heartbeat and go out and attract investors who will add value to the board and share the responsibility. Surely after all this time he is not too blind to see his own shortcomings that we as paying fans all have to suffer at times.
Kingston makes a good point and it’s a question of morality that JF needs to answer sooner or later..
Spot on Fantastic post mate 👍 |
| In his three stints as Grimsby Town manager spanning over 10 years the club was never relegated and he also guided them to three promotions.
Only 14 managers have reached 1,000 matches in charge of a Football League team by 1998 and Buckley is one of them.
GOD |
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| MuddyWaters |
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No-one doubts that he was once a fan but I don't believe a fan would have made some of the decisions he has over the last few years.
I think we would all feel slightly different if we'd got 2 or 3 million quid invested in a football club |
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Would converting his loans into shares make us anymore attractive to investors?
Don't get that one as a solution tbh
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| MuddyWaters |
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Would converting his loans into shares make us anymore attractive to investors?
Don't get that one as a solution tbh
Certainly wouldn't benefit JF to do so. He's got a majority already so doesn't need to strengthen his hand so it (theoretically) remains better for him to have the money owed to him. |
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| Bigdog |
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Would converting his loans into shares make us anymore attractive to investors?
Don't get that one as a solution tbh
Scenario One Investor (or group) buys £5m in new share issue, only £3m available to invest in club as JF loan can be called in Scenario Two JF converts loan to shares. Investor (or group) buys £5m in new share issue, full £5m to invest in club as no loan to consider or pay off, if JF then wants to realise his £2m he has to sell the shares to AN Other which does not affect the new investment |
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| KingstonMariner |
| November 3, 2017, 10:25pm |
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No one will invest (other than the Trust) unless and until JF's loans are written or paid off. You wouldn't do it as the power rests 'outside the boardroom' to quote a phrase used by JF himself when he talked the Trust into giving him £200,000 worth of shares. Given that he could call in his loan at any time (yes, I know he said they're benign, but an outside investor would not want the sword of Damocles hanging over him).
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| Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same. |
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No one will invest (other than the Trust) unless and until JF's loans are written or paid off. You wouldn't do it as the power rests 'outside the boardroom' to quote a phrase used by JF himself when he talked the Trust into giving him £200,000 worth of shares. Given that he could call in his loan at any time (yes, I know he said they're benign, but an outside investor would not want the sword of Damocles hanging over him).
He cannot call his loans in unless it is affordable for the club. This applies to all directors loans in GTFC |
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Scenario One
Investor buys $5m in new share issue, only £3m available to invest in club as JF loan can be called in
Scenario Two
JF converts loan to shares. Investor buys £5m in new share issue, full £5m to invest in club as no loan to consider or pay off, if JF then wants to realise his £2m he has to sell the shares to AN Other which does not affect the new investment
Thanks, see that now. Not sure anyone would buy a controlling interest in GTFC. For £5m though!! |
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| KingstonMariner |
| November 4, 2017, 12:45pm |
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He cannot call his loans in unless it is affordable for the club. This applies to all directors loans in GTFC
He can do what he likes. Unless there is a specific clause limiting his ability to call in the loans, and I've never heard of any such clause, he can call in his loans whenever he likes. |
| Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same. |
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| fleabag1970 |
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The fans gave over 100k to the club . The club sign a top player they then sell the top player and then the owner of the club rewards himself with 200k ? Am I missing something or is this a fact ?
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Sorry, no issure with that, love him or hate him JF has put the money in and is entitled to get some of it back when we turn a profit, however it came about- its not like he has emptied the clubs coffers.
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He could have been well within his rights to take more to be honest, no issues here. Whatever you think of him he "put his money where his mouth is" as a former Man U supporter once said.
So what happens is people moan that we are indebted via the benign loans then when we start to pay those loans down people still moan, if as reported JF did tell someone to eff off recently well where some "supporters" are concerned it's arguably a bit overdue.
We are having trouble scoring goals, that is not his fault maybe the blame lays at the feet of the manager who appears to have signed a couple of donkey's up front.
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The fans gave over 100k to the club . The club sign a top player they then sell the top player and then the owner of the club rewards himself with 200k ? Am I missing something or is this a fact ?
I gave the money I gave to help get us promoted. We got promoted with that money and Bogle played a huge part. As far as I'm concerned, my money was well used. |
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The fans gave over 100k to the club . The club sign a top player they then sell the top player and then the owner of the club rewards himself with 200k ? Am I missing something or is this a fact ?
and he also allowed the signing of numerous players on the back of selling that player in the same transfer window ... |
| 2023/24 DLWDDWDLLLWDLLLLWDDDWDLLWLDLLDWDDWLLDWLWLW 2022/23LDWDWWDWLLDWWDLLLDLWLLWLWLLWDDLDWWDDDLLWDWLWLW 2021/22 WDWWWWDLWWWWLLLWLLDLWLLWWDWWWLWDLWWDWWWDLWD play offs WWW Promoted 🥳 2020/21 LLDWWLDLDWLWLLLDLWLLDLLDLLLWLLLDDDDWDDDLWLWLWL .. hello darkness my old friend 2019/20 WDLDWWLDLWWLLLDLDLDLDDWWDLLWDDWWL WLLW - ended 2018/19 LWDDLLLLLLWWDWLLLWDWLWWWWLLLLWWWWDLLLDDLLDLWLW Hello Scunny |
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| Bigdog |
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JF should have had the good grace to put the initial £2m in as a proper investment by the way of shares if he intended to rule on his own for so long. So if the odd fan is saying he's entitled to getting his money back, what's the last fifteen years of relegations and non-league and future years of drudgery all been for? Surely there's got to be some kind of cost for him to live out a dream and shut out the chance of anyone else doing it? MP and the Trust have invested money without ties along with the OP money, JF had the pleasure of spending it all himself. Not only does the £2m hold us back investment wise, paying it all back at some stage is going to stunt our progress too. It's not as simple as "he put his money in, he deserves it back." Whoever has the honour of running our club should invest not loan, especially if the tenure starts to span generations upon generations of our fans..
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| HertsGTFC |
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JF should have had the good grace to put the initial £2m in as a proper investment by the way of shares if he intended to rule on his own for so long. So if fans are saying he's entitled to getting his money back, what's the last fifteen years of relegations and non-league and future years of drudgery all been for? Surely there's got to be some kind of cost for him to live out a dream. MP and the Trust have invested money without ties along with the OP money, JF had the pleasure of spending it all himself. Not only does the £2m hold us back investment wise, paying it all back at some stage is going to stunt our progress too. It's not as simple as "he put his money in, he deserves it back." Whoever has the honour of running our club should invest not loan, especially if the tenure starts to span generations upon generations of our fans..
The principle of investment is you put the money in and then get it back. |
| "Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style |
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I have a lot of issue with JF, he's turned our once proud club into a tin pot club with zero risk to himself. There's no investment in our club and it's not going to get better until we have someone knows how to run a football club.
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| TheRealJohnLewis |
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The principle of investment is you put the money in and then get it back.
Only when the entity you have invested in has grown, if the entity decreases then you would normally lose some of your investment |
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| MuddyWaters |
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I have a lot of issue with JF, he's turned our once proud club into a tin pot club with zero risk to himself. There's no investment in our club and it's not going to get better until we have someone knows how to run a football club.
So do I - the best justification for a new stadium would be to be playing attractive football in a higher league rather than snaffling back money that you have burnt at the first available opportunity. |
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| Bigdog |
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The principle of investment is you put the money in and then get it back.
Yes, by having the courage of your own convictions by investing in share value and then selling them on the open market value depending on performance. After all it's only JF's decisions that would affect that share value. Not to use £2m as a standby noose for the club if anyone else threatens his position. I don't see MP, the Trust or the fans asking for their money back along with the hundreds and thousands of other shareholders past and present.. |
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Yes, by having the courage of your own convictions by investing in share value and then selling them on the open market value depending on performance. After all it's only JF's decisions that would affect that share value. Not to use £2m as a standby noose for the club if anyone else threatens his position.
I don't see MP, the Trust or the fans asking for their money back along with the hundreds and thousands of other shareholders past and present..
Yeah I get what your saying, but if you turned the £2 million into shares in reality how attractive is that for an investor? How likely would you be to get a decent ROI? Putting £2 million into GTFC for what would be in reality "A shares" would be a massive risk for anyone. |
| "Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style |
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| MuddyWaters |
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Yeah I get what your saying, but if you turned the £2 million into shares in reality how attractive is that for an investor? How likely would you be to get a decent ROI? Putting £2 million into GTFC for what would be in reality "A shares" would be a massive risk for anyone.
To put your spin on it then, the loans and investments of Mr Fenty allow him to make all of the dodgy decisions and accumulate the debt? Whether the money is in loans or shares, there's not a right way or a wrong way. Shares give him more control, loans hang over the club like the Sword of Damocles - either way, it hardly serves to make the club an exciting investment. |
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| headingly_mariner |
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Yeah I get what your saying, but if you turned the £2 million into shares in reality how attractive is that for an investor? How likely would you be to get a decent ROI? Putting £2 million into GTFC for what would be in reality "A shares" would be a massive risk for anyone.
It's surely about what's best for the club. Selling the club debt free at a massively cut price would be about letting someone else have a go at taking the club forward. Are the current administration capable of taking the club forward and getting a new ground built? I would say that the last 15 years suggest not. I think we are probably more likely to end up back in Non league. The right people have been interested in taking the club on in the past and they haven't for whatever reason. I imagine that reason was how much money it would take to secure the club. I'm told there was interest from someone who ended up buying another local sporting club that play in black and white. |
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| HertsGTFC |
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It's surely about what's best for the club. Selling the club debt free at a massively cut price would be about letting someone else have a go at taking the club forward.
Are the current administration capable of taking the club forward and getting a new ground built? I would say that the last 15 years suggest not. I think we are probably more likely to end up back in Non league.
The right people have been interested in taking the club on in the past and they haven't for whatever reason. I imagine that reason was how much money it would take to secure the club.
I'm told there was interest from someone who ended up buying another local sporting club that play in black and white.
Don't disagree that selling anything debt free is attractive but there would have to be something on the balance sheet in reality otherwise we could end up in the same position indebted to an individual as the only capex we could generate would come from the coffers of an owner, the cash flow just covers the costs most season. So bits in bold, how do you know that any interested part was "the right people"? You don't know till they get here. What currently suggests we will end up non league? Finally are you saying that Adam Pearson wanted to buy GTFC? |
| "Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style |
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| Bigdog |
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Yeah I get what your saying, but if you turned the £2 million into shares in reality how attractive is that for an investor? How likely would you be to get a decent ROI? Putting £2 million into GTFC for what would be in reality "A shares" would be a massive risk for anyone.
I'd agree with what you are saying if we were talking about a window company, an engineering business, a fish processing plant, etc. But we're talking about a football club, a football club is different. No one gets involved in a football club to primarily make money. It's about pleasure and passion for the club and/or the game. I think it's where the key principle of your argument falls down in my (humble) opinion.. Regarding the A shares. Considering the number of existing shares issued is much more palatable than an outstanding loan. It's a value judgement that a person or group with much more money than you and I to take.. Their £5m might mean as much to them as £500 to anyone on this forum. |
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| headingly_mariner |
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Don't disagree that selling anything debt free is attractive but there would have to be something on the balance sheet in reality otherwise we could end up in the same position indebted to an individual as the only capex we could generate would come from the coffers of an owner, the cash flow just covers the costs most season.
So bits in bold, how do you know that any interested part was "the right people"? You don't know till they get here. What currently suggests we will end up non league? Finally are you saying that Adam Pearson wanted to buy GTFC?
That we are a mid table league side capable of a good or a bad run. We haven't invested in any great quality in the squad and I can't imagine we will in the future. A bad season could see us relegated. I have little faith in the current administration. I'd heard that he'd had a look at the club before taking on Hull FC. |
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| monkeyboy |
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What would happen if JF fell off his mortal coil? surely the money would be asked back by the estate. that could fold the club.
JF has the club in a very poor position by holding onto these loans. i would rather him take the money back out of any profits until he is paid up then seriously start thinking of the clubs future. a third of it could have been easily repaid now and its not likne we are signing players for large amounts.
Sorry but it is all about being the fat controller as it were, no one can take over the club unless being seriously rich like abromavich etc and dont really care about a few million. realistically thes only the ross family that are from the area that could do that. that is not going to happen.
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That we are a mid table league side capable of a good or a bad run. We haven't invested in any great quality in the squad and I can't imagine we will in the future. A bad season could see us relegated. I have little faith in the current administration.
I'd heard that he'd had a look at the club before taking on Hull FC.
Yeah get the point about the drop in principle your not wrong but it applies to a good 10 or so clubs at our level at least. Interesting about Pearson there could be something in that if it was at the time when Great Coates was on the agenda, it's common knowledge he looked at HKR but their league status at the time put him off. When he got involved in Hull FC & HCFC I was living just between The Boulevard and Boothferry Park and the general feeling was that he saw the opportunity first to bring both clubs together in a new facility that in the end neither had to pay for. David Lloyd talked about it but didn't understand the City and the clubs and wasn't up for speculating to accumulate, Pearson did that. One thing for sure was he generated a great feel good factor in West Hull at least. Who knows an Adam Pearson type is the kind of "investor" we could possibly attract if this effing new stadium got moving within our lifetime............maybe that's JF's plan? |
| "Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style |
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I agree with what you are saying if we were talking about a window company, an engineering business, a fish processing plant, etc. But we're talking about a football club, a football club is different. No one gets involved in a football club to primarily make money. It's about pleasure and passion for the club and/or the game. I think it's where the key principle of your argument falls down in my (humble) opinion..
Regarding the A shares. Considering the number of existing shares issued is much more palatable than an outstanding loan. It's a value judgement that a person or group with much more money than you and I to take.. Their £5m might mean as much to them as £500 to you and I.
I don't disagree about people doing things for love rather than money but "Jack Walkers" are few and far between at the moment. Bigdog we don't often (usually) agree but I respect your perspective & care for GTFC but where replacements for JF are concerned you need to differentiate between a Town mad £100M Euro millions winner who sits in the Ponny each Saturday or a serious business man looking for a ROCE. Sadly for different reasons neither are likely to come forward, but we can always hope. |
| "Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style |
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| cannylad68 |
| November 5, 2017, 10:10am |
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I know I'm not very knowledgeable regarding shares etc., but when I tried to sell my shares, I was told by GTFC that they had no value, and were worthless.
I suggested that if that was the case, then I had made a donation to the club, which GTFC confirmed as correct.
Clarification please?
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| MuddyWaters |
| November 5, 2017, 10:20am |
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I know I'm not very knowledgeable regarding shares etc., but when I tried to sell my shares, I was told by GTFC that they had no value, and were worthless.
I suggested that if that was the case, then I had made a donation to the club, which GTFC confirmed as correct.
Clarification please?
Your shares, as a percentage of the total of the club's shares, are worth the same percentage of the club's book value, which is zero. If however, a fresh investor came in and wanted to buy the club for whatever, they might be worth something but only if it was to give said investor control. As JSF has the controlling interest, they would probably still be worth nothing as new investor would only need to buy JSF's shares to gain control. |
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| cannylad68 |
| November 5, 2017, 11:07am |
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| bedders78 |
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Would it be more prudent for the Trust to use money such as Operation Promotion to buy shares in the club rather than just gift it?
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| Grim Outlook exile |
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Would it be more prudent for the Trust to use money such as Operation Promotion to buy shares in the club rather than just gift it?
Or maybe a benign loan ?? |
| The wife was going away for a girly weekend. I jokingly remarked 'I don't know whether to spend it watching porn or watching football' 'you may as well spend it watching porn' she replied That's understanding darling what makes you say that? I asked She said 'Well you already know how to play football'  |
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| MuddyWaters |
| November 6, 2017, 10:57am |
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Or maybe a benign loan ??
The benign loan budget would appear to be full. |
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| mimma |
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There's been a lot of rubbish spouted on this particular thread. Where to start?
This rumour about Pearson is news to me. Is there anything to substantiate it other than Chinese whispers from what someone said in the pub late one Saturday night?
If JF converts his loans to shares, it still means that whoever wants to buy the club ends up paying the £2 million in extra shares to control the club, instead of paying off JF.
If JF hadn't put his money in, what would have happened to the club? We would have had £2 million quid less to spend. As one lady prime minister has said, "there is no magic money tree".
As for his managerial appointments, finding the right person to take us on to the next level is purely down to luck. Take Bignot for example, he was well received by the fans when he was appointed. We were all taken in by his talk. It was only when we started getting thrashed at home that the fans turned on him. Then it became a Fenty disaster, what on earth was he doing giving him the job? Hindsight is wonderful stuff, and Town fans loads of it going spare.
Fenty's problems started when Pete Furneaux retired. He was the one with the footballing knowledge that JF sadly lacks. To be fair to JF he has to run everything himself, and gets no help or advice as far as I can tell, for anywhere. He will be the first to admit that he has made mistakes and bad decisions, but they were made with the best interest of the club at the time, but it's history that makes them bad decisions.
One final note, be careful what you wish for in a chairman. Just look at the likes of Dull City, Coventry, Blackpool. They all lived the dream, and look where that's got them.
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| Meza |
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Good post that mimma.
My work mates in lincoln have said the fans are getting annoyed with their recent results and some of the fans have already started to moan....are the cowleys feeling the strain 🤔
I have no problem with RS i think hes a nice bloke and good manager for league 2. I just hope we let the shackles off a little and let the players attack more even if its slightly more direct.
Anyway lets hope for a good result in our next league game.
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| [URL=https://imgur.com/VCxdH2Y][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/VCxdH2Ys.jpg[/IMG][/URL][URL=https://imgur.com/uMRVvRe][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/uMRVvRes.jpg[/IMG][/URL][URL=https://imgur.com/5p7nllT][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/5p7nllTs.jpg[/IMG][/URL][URL=https://imgur.com/46BEw5M][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/46BEw5Ms.jpg[/IMG][/URL][URL=https://imgur.com/06NXnQF][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/06NXnQFs.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
My Grimsby Legends |
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| HertsGTFC |
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There's been a lot of rubbish spouted on this particular thread. Where to start?
This rumour about Pearson is news to me. Is there anything to substantiate it other than Chinese whispers from what someone said in the pub late one Saturday night?
If JF converts his loans to shares, it still means that whoever wants to buy the club ends up paying the £2 million in extra shares to control the club, instead of paying off JF.
If JF hadn't put his money in, what would have happened to the club? We would have had £2 million quid less to spend. As one lady prime minister has said, "there is no magic money tree".
As for his managerial appointments, finding the right person to take us on to the next level is purely down to luck. Take Bignot for example, he was well received by the fans when he was appointed. We were all taken in by his talk. It was only when we started getting thrashed at home that the fans turned on him. Then it became a Fenty disaster, what on earth was he doing giving him the job? Hindsight is wonderful stuff, and Town fans loads of it going spare.
Fenty's problems started when Pete Furneaux retired. He was the one with the footballing knowledge that JF sadly lacks. To be fair to JF he has to run everything himself, and gets no help or advice as far as I can tell, for anywhere. He will be the first to admit that he has made mistakes and bad decisions, but they were made with the best interest of the club at the time, but it's history that makes them bad decisions.
One final note, be careful what you wish for in a chairman. Just look at the likes of Dull City, Coventry, Blackpool. They all lived the dream, and look where that's got them.
Good post. Though the 2 million shares thing might sound stupid it in theory but could make the club a bit more democratic/collaborative and also illustrate some measurable value. If you where the one who wanted to buy JF out and it was in shares the value of those shares can rise. Usually a good rule of thumb to any sale of A shares is based upon 2.5 x OP, All of which would make it a true investment opportunity and more attractive to new money as in turn those shares could be sold on at a profit. Re Bignot, the less said about that charlatan the better but maybe that appointment underlines that JF is still short of football competency at exec level, so surely you surround yourself with some expertise? There is only one person who can make this happen and it's the man himself. I just want a bit of fresh energy from the top, regime change could be counter productive, outlook change might not be. |
| "Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style |
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| headingly_mariner |
| November 7, 2017, 12:54pm |
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Good post. Though the 2 million shares thing might sound stupid it in theory but could make the club a bit more democratic/collaborative and also illustrate some measurable value. If you where the one who wanted to buy JF out and it was in shares the value of those shares can rise. Usually a good rule of thumb to any sale of A shares is based upon 2.5 x OP, All of which would make it a true investment opportunity and more attractive to new money as in turn those shares could be sold on at a profit.
Re Bignot, the less said about that charlatan the better but maybe that appointment underlines that JF is still short of football competency at exec level, so surely you surround yourself with some expertise? There is only one person who can make this happen and it's the man himself.
I just want a bit of fresh energy from the top, regime change could be counter productive, outlook change might not be.
Shares in GTFC are worthless and you will never get the money back. Loans can be called in. |
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| HertsGTFC |
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Shares in GTFC are worthless and you will never get the money back. Loans can be called in.
Which is why we are in the position we are. Read what Grimsby Pete posted on the Trust thread about his conversation with JF, it's very interesting. |
| "Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style |
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| KingstonMariner |
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There's been a lot of rubbish spouted on this particular thread. Where to start?
This rumour about Pearson is news to me. Is there anything to substantiate it other than Chinese whispers from what someone said in the pub late one Saturday night?
If JF converts his loans to shares, it still means that whoever wants to buy the club ends up paying the £2 million in extra shares to control the club, instead of paying off JF.
If JF hadn't put his money in, what would have happened to the club? We would have had £2 million quid less to spend. As one lady prime minister has said, "there is no magic money tree".
As for his managerial appointments, finding the right person to take us on to the next level is purely down to luck. Take Bignot for example, he was well received by the fans when he was appointed. We were all taken in by his talk. It was only when we started getting thrashed at home that the fans turned on him. Then it became a Fenty disaster, what on earth was he doing giving him the job? Hindsight is wonderful stuff, and Town fans loads of it going spare.
Fenty's problems started when Pete Furneaux retired. He was the one with the footballing knowledge that JF sadly lacks. To be fair to JF he has to run everything himself, and gets no help or advice as far as I can tell, for anywhere. He will be the first to admit that he has made mistakes and bad decisions, but they were made with the best interest of the club at the time, but it's history that makes them bad decisions.
One final note, be careful what you wish for in a chairman. Just look at the likes of Dull City, Coventry, Blackpool. They all lived the dream, and look where that's got them.
The difference being that JF won't be able to take his money away when he feels like it. Always a risk when it's a loan. The other factor is, a new investor could buy control of the club without buying all of JF's shares, so it would cost less than the £2m plus JF's shareholding. As for the PM and there being no magic money tree, well it seems that there was, you just had to be the DUP leader to get it! Getting back to the serious point, you've got to ask yourself why did we need JF to put in that money? Some of it was because of the tax bill and that was sorted. The rest was because of poor management, which at least partly was down to him. We wouldn't have needed £2m but for him! I don't think anyone is suggesting he took decisions without thinking they were in the best interests of the club, but if he had an employee who made such errors, would he continue to back him/her? The other thing is, with the loan there is no jeopardy. He can make mistakes, lose the club money, but unlike shares he still gets it back. At worst he can take the ground as part payment - I believe the loans are secured on the club's assets. It's a bit like those bankers trading with other people's money (obviously not exactly, but similar in principle). |
| Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same. |
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| HertsGTFC |
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The difference being that JF won't be able to take his money away when he feels like it. Always a risk when it's a loan. The other factor is, a new investor could buy control of the club without buying all of JF's shares, so it would cost less than the £2m plus JF's shareholding.
As for the PM and there being no magic money tree, well it seems that there was, you just had to be the DUP leader to get it! Getting back to the serious point, you've got to ask yourself why did we need JF to put in that money? Some of it was because of the tax bill and that was sorted. The rest was because of poor management, which at least partly was down to him. We wouldn't have needed £2m but for him! I don't think anyone is suggesting he took decisions without thinking they were in the best interests of the club, but if he had an employee who made such errors, would he continue to back him/her?
The other thing is, with the loan there is no jeopardy. He can make mistakes, lose the club money, but unlike shares he still gets it back. At worst he can take the ground as part payment - I believe the loans are secured on the club's assets. It's a bit like those bankers trading with other people's money (obviously not exactly, but similar in principle).
Do you know the bit in bold for definite? Other than the BP land I am not sure we have many fixed assets to secure against. |
| "Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style |
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| Cloudy |
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Do you know the bit in bold for definite?
Other than the BP land I am not sure we have many fixed assets to secure against.
Yes. Debenture in JF's favour over the fixed and floating assets of the club secure his loans |
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| HertsGTFC |
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Yes. Debenture in JF's favour over the fixed and floating assets of the club secure his loans
Ta, "floating" being the playing staff I assume? |
| "Crombie you would have got to that if you weren't such a fat ba%$@rd" - George Kerr, inspiration from the dug out 70s style |
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| Mariner_09 |
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They can't be totally benign if we've just paid 200k of them back and him saying he "wouldn't put the club in jeopardy" suggests he has every intention of taking them back if and when the club can afford it. Plus he won't write them off because if he did he would lose that stranglehold he has on the club and if we were debt free he wouldn't be as indispensable as he is now.
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| I've wasted my life in black and white, a pathetic act for a worthless cause |
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| KingstonMariner |
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Do you know the bit in bold for definite?
Other than the BP land I am not sure we have many fixed assets to secure against.
That's why I said 'believe'. |
| Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same. |
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| KingstonMariner |
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They can't be totally benign if we've just paid 200k of them back and him saying he "wouldn't put the club in jeopardy" suggests he has every intention of taking them back if and when the club can afford it. Plus he won't write them off because if he did he would lose that stranglehold he has on the club and if we were debt free he wouldn't be as indispensable as he is now.
We can afford it this year. Only 9 more years at this rate. |
| Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same. |
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| jamesgtfc |
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Correct me if I am wrong but for tax reasons I don't think the loans can be cancelled?
Can any accountants confirm this?
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| MuddyWaters |
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Correct me if I am wrong but for tax reasons I don't think the loans can be cancelled?
Can any accountants confirm this?
There's one on the board! |
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| H19P1 |
| November 7, 2017, 10:55pm |
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How many more years are we a debt club? Surely at some point in time the debts will be paid off as it's reducing each year on a rolling repayment system?
Please tell me that this is the case like any other household loan?
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| Cloudy |
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How many more years are we a debt club? Surely at some point in time the debts will be paid off as it's reducing each year on a rolling repayment system?
Please tell me that this is the case like any other household loan?
Nope! The benign loan has no repayment program. The directors loans decreased by around £200k in the most recent set of accounts but that has not been the norm |
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| Civvy at last |
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I have one question. The Trust have to pay in £30,000 per year to sit on the board.
Does every member of the board have to do the same ?
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| The wife was going away for a girly weekend. I jokingly remarked 'I don't know whether to spend it watching porn or watching football' 'you may as well spend it watching porn' she replied That's understanding darling what makes you say that? I asked She said 'Well you already know how to play football' |
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I have one question. The Trust have to pay in £30,000 per year to sit on the board.
Does every member of the board have to do the same ?
A resounding NO! |
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| KingstonMariner |
| November 8, 2017, 10:18am |
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I knew the Trust had to pay a 'subscription' but I didn't know the other directors didn't have to.
This is plain wrong and stinks. If all the other 4 directors had made such a contribution (yes I know there's been some churn, but assuming they all had to whilst on the board) then the club would be £30,000 x 4(directors) x 4(years) better off. That'd have been another £480,000 off the debt to Fenty.
Clearly in no other type of business would directors pay for the privilege, so the question is 'why should the Trust be singled out?'
The smell of rotten fish is so strong I thing we need to call in Environmental Health!
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| Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same. |
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| Cloudy |
| November 8, 2017, 10:22am |
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Whiskey Drinker Posts: 3,335
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I knew the Trust had to pay a 'subscription' but I didn't know the other directors didn't have to.
This is plain wrong and stinks. If all the other 4 directors had made such a contribution (yes I know there's been some churn, but assuming they all had to whilst on the board) then the club would be £30,000 x 4(directors) x 4(years) better off. That'd have been another £480,000 off the debt to Fenty.
Clearly in no other type of business would directors pay for the privilege, so the question is 'why should the Trust be singled out?'
The smell of rotten fish is so strong I thing we need to call in Environmental Health!
Agree. I suspect the ultimate controller values the professional expertise of the accountant & the solicitor far more than the fans representative hence the payment? Not sure where the racehorse trainer comes into it though? |
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| KingstonMariner |
| November 8, 2017, 10:26am |
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Let me repeat that number:
£480,000.
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| Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same. |
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