Fitness & conditioning

This came up as a big issue with PH in the early season when he wanted a specialist coach and I wonder if MB and his team are now addressing this as some players now look a lot fitter than 3 months ago whilst others, allegedly, are not happy with the amount of work they're having to do.

I've just been watching Maidstone v Dover (bored- pre-darts) and watching Aswad reminded me how he always used to look knackered after 60/70 minutes and it led me to think that, whilst we were in the Conference, I can't remember a team coming to BP and looking fitter than us. On the other hand, there have been teams this year that have bullied us with high tempo pressing (Carlisle & Portsmouth particularly) that have looked fitter than us.

In general terms, what that means is that we are (or have been) at a competitive disadvantage against clubs who have specialists in this sphere. Hopefully, MB is now levelling that up so that, from a fitness perspective, we are competing at an equal level at least.

It might also just be that teams such as Carlisle and Pompey can afford to sign players who naturally have more athletic ability. No matter how hard or effectively you train, genetics play the major part in how quick you are and how much stamina you have.

For example, Craig Clay never looked to have a spare ounce of fat on him and I never doubted his work ethic, but he always looked completely buggered after about 70 minutes of a game whereas older players such as Disley could keep on going to the death.

Being professional would mean having your own s&c regime. What I don't buy into is these players not having the appetite or 'want' to play for town. If 'IF' this if the case then they were very poor signings

Fitness & conditioning coach is as good as adding an extra player to the squad IMO and should be done ASAP whether it takes some of the playing budget or not. Every little bit helps at this level, the football league has changed a lot in the six years we have been gone and we have plenty of catching up to do as a football club

One aspect that some fans don't seem to grasp is that better sides are not necessarily fitter, they just use less energy and let the ball do the work. Portsmouth were a classic example of a team that wore us down making us chase the ball for most of the game. Mental energy is as important as physical energy and when you spend most of the game frustratingly trying to get the ball back, it leads to mistakes and even more chasing.

I remember going to watch my brother play in Sunday League Div 1 once and they were up against Seawave. He was a very decent player and was in the same youth systems as John Cockerill and Bryan Klug. My brother was as fit as they come but he came off that pitch absolutely knackered and dripping in sweat. He had hardly got a kick for 90 mins and said he couldn't get near them, despite their players being much older and mostly ex professionals.

Quoted from ginnywings

One aspect that some fans don't seem to grasp is that better sides are not necessarily fitter, they just use less energy and let the ball do the work. Portsmouth were a classic example of a team that wore us down making us chase the ball for most of the game. Mental energy is as important as physical energy and when you spend most of the game frustratingly trying to get the ball back, it leads to mistakes and even more chasing.

I remember going to watch my brother play in Sunday League Div 1 once and they were up against Seawave. He was a very decent player and was in the same youth systems as John Cockerill and Bryan Klug. My brother was as fit as they come but he came off that pitch absolutely knackered and dripping in sweat. He had hardly got a kick for 90 mins and said he couldn't get near them, despite their players being much older and mostly ex professionals.

I played against Seawave a few times and felt pretty much the same although I do remember beating them once!

Quoted from ginnywings

One aspect that some fans don't seem to grasp is that better sides are not necessarily fitter, they just use less energy and let the ball do the work. Portsmouth were a classic example of a team that wore us down making us chase the ball for most of the game. Mental energy is as important as physical energy and when you spend most of the game frustratingly trying to get the ball back, it leads to mistakes and even more chasing.

I remember going to watch my brother play in Sunday League Div 1 once and they were up against Seawave. He was a very decent player and was in the same youth systems as John Cockerill and Bryan Klug. My brother was as fit as they come but he came off that pitch absolutely knackered and dripping in sweat. He had hardly got a kick for 90 mins and said he couldn't get near them, despite their players being much older and mostly ex professionals.

Pompey closed us down every opportunity their fitness was better than ours they didn't give us a second on the ball

Quoted from dapperz fun pub

Pompey closed us down every opportunity their fitness was better than ours they didn't give us a second on the ball

I don't agree with that. It's an easy call to make when a team are better than you. They look fitter because they think quicker and are usually first to most situations.

Quoted from ginnywings

I don't agree with that. It's an easy call to make when a team are better than you. They look fitter because they think quicker and are usually first to most situations.

When we had possession most cases they got 2'players to the man ball they did it for 90 min as well , admittedly they were better than us technically in their movement was better than ours but fitness plays it's part in this

Quoted from ginnywings

One aspect that some fans don't seem to grasp is that better sides are not necessarily fitter, they just use less energy and let the ball do the work. Portsmouth were a classic example of a team that wore us down making us chase the ball for most of the game. Mental energy is as important as physical energy and when you spend most of the game frustratingly trying to get the ball back, it leads to mistakes and even more chasing.

I remember going to watch my brother play in Sunday League Div 1 once and they were up against Seawave. He was a very decent player and was in the same youth systems as John Cockerill and Bryan Klug. My brother was as fit as they come but he came off that pitch absolutely knackered and dripping in sweat. He had hardly got a kick for 90 mins and said he couldn't get near them, despite their players being much older and mostly ex professionals.

I think we would last better in games if we could keep the ball for longer periods than we currently do. I think PH used this topic as a bit of a smoke screen for walking away to be honest but I am sure that if we had someone part time it would help. Like a kit man though I am not convinced you cannot have success without one.

What I would say is that my lad came to the Blackpool game which was the first time since we played Bolton and he noticed that a few players had lost some weight and looked leaner so something must be happening at Cheapside without a S&C coach, possibly the double sessions. Also surely if the manager and coaches have the UEFA qualifications and experience as players they should know enough to get by?  

  

Quoted from HertsGTFC

I think we would last better in games if we could keep the ball for longer periods than we currently do. I think PH used this topic as a bit of a smoke screen for walking away to be honest but I am sure that if we had someone part time it would help. Like a kit man though I am not convinced you cannot have success without one.

What I would say is that my lad came to the Blackpool game which was the first time since we played Bolton and he noticed that a few players had lost some weight and looked leaner so something must be happening at Cheapside without a S&C coach, possibly the double sessions. Also surely if the manager and coaches have the UEFA qualifications and experience as players they should know enough to get by?  

  

I'd like to think the club wants to do a bit more than just just get by

Absolutely, Ginnywings! The better teams just make the game look easy; it's pass and move, pass and move. The secret is knowing where the next pass is going to go and creating the space for it. For that though you need players with good touch, comfort on the ball, vision and well-rehearsed routines. Sheffield United were excellent at BP pre-season and made the game look very easy. For me, we don't show anything like the same mobility, have too many ball-watchers rather than space-makers and give the ball away much too cheaply.

I think most professional clubs now have roughly the same fitness levels. It then comes down to who is the better technically and look after the ball better when they have it.

Talking of fitness, if you ever see the running stats for distance covered for Barcelona they usually have done more than the opposition, and they usually have the ball for 60% plus of the game. At our level they must be well capable of still being able to close down/make runs in the final minutes, if your fit enough it's easier to control the ball and make passes, if your knackered passes etc will go astray.

With Barca, I'd imagine much of their running is at a canter as they pass and move the ball so effectively. Their opponents, however, are knackering themselves at the same time with lots of short sprints trying to close them down to get close enough to attempt a tackle or interception.

We sounded as if we were very fit today, breaking with pace whenever possible.

Quoted from Maringer

With Barca, I'd imagine much of their running is at a canter as they pass and move the ball so effectively. Their opponents, however, are knackering themselves at the same time with lots of short sprints trying to close them down to get close enough to attempt a tackle or interception.

Exactly my thoughts, plus the mentality of being in control of most games isn't as fatiguing or frustrating as chasing shadows.

If there's an issue with strength and conditioning, then Hurst could have done something about it himself. The players only trained for half a day.

I don`t know anything about how much or how the Grimsby-players train, but my hometown club Rosenborg have been training a lot more fitness & conditioning than other clubs in our Norwegian league. It is very obvious to everyone that this is of huge importance, especially when looking at all the games where they have scored in the last 15 minutes of the game against a very tired opponent.
Many games have been won in those last 15 minutes because of their very hard training regime in advance of every season.
But, in a recent study ordered by Rosenborg, they admit that clubs in the top European leagues train even harder, making it more difficult for the club to qualify for Champions League today than it was 15 years ago. Fitness is of more importance today than it ever was if you want to compete, and many of the top players train by themselves outside of their clubs training program.

Up the Mariners!

I think their is a misconception about S&C. It isn't just about being fitter, it is more about he conditioning side which also focuses on injury prevention. It wasn't something that was in vogue when most managers were still playing so their knowledge is often very limited. It needs to be delivered by an S&C professional not by a Personal Trainer from the local gym. Their skills are totally different.
Doubt MB will be permitted to bring in a suitable individual even IF he buys into the concept.

Not the end of the world and as JF often says, if you get 3 points this sort of clamour fades into the background and it only because an issue when we are losing. I guess that's were we are at.

UTM

Maybe though it's best to address the issue now so it isn't an issue when we lose, if other teams have it and JF is so tight as to not allow additional coaching staff and S&C trainers then we are handicapping ourselves.

Quoted from Mariner_09

Maybe though it's best to address the issue now so it isn't an issue when we lose, if other teams have it and JF is so tight as to not allow additional coaching staff and S&C trainers then we are handicapping ourselves.

How do you know that JF is the one not allowing it? You don't. Town fans have to accept there is only so much money in the pot for playing & coaching. Simple economics you have to manage your outgoings based upon your incomings..JF and PH are not at fault for all the short comings of the squad and playing set up. That argument is getting very boring now.

If you noticed I said "if" yes there is an implication in my post, but we need to make sure we can compete against sides in this league, if by March-April time we are utterly knackered and others look fit then that could be a cause.

Quoted from Mariner_09

If you noticed I said "if" yes there is an implication in my post, but we need to make sure we can compete against sides in this league, if by March-April time we are utterly knackered and others look fit then that could be a cause.

Fair point, when you get to that stage of the season the danger is that players will be mentally drained as much as physically. I know they are footballers but 9/10 months of train, travel, play - train, travel, play must grind you down a bit. I am a fan of some form of winter break but it will never happen in the EFL.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

How do you know that JF is the one not allowing it? You don't. Town fans have to accept there is only so much money in the pot for playing & coaching. Simple economics you have to manage your outgoings based upon your incomings..JF and PH are not at fault for all the short comings of the squad and playing set up. That argument is getting very boring now.

Good points. The manager will have a budget and it's up to him how he wants to spend it. If he is successful and gets more bums on seats, then he is in a stronger position to ask for more if he feels he needs to add to his playing or backroom staff, which has already happened with Gary Whild coming into the set up. We have to trust that the manager knows what he is doing and gets the best out of what he has to work with.

But if the gate is 500 per home game above budget hypothetically then the spend budget should be reviewed . Just normal business practice.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

But if the gate is 500 per home game above budget hypothetically then the spend budget should be reviewed . Just normal business practice.

Yes, that's what i'm getting at. The gates have been good this season and maybe it is that which is driving the new signings, as we already have a big squad. Extra income could also be used to mitigate the seasons losses- that is for the board to decide.

I doubt the club budgeted for average gates of 5000 or more, maybe 4300 or something like that but if we say on aveage those 700 people spend £20 each on a programme, ticket, pie, beer or in the club shop then that's an extra 14k per home match, over the 12 games we've played at home that is £168,000 extra than budgeted, now I expect that the Checkatrade Trophy games cost the club a few quid so lets say we have 120k extra in the pot, that could sign a couple of really good players at this level.

Quoted from ginnywings

Good points. The manager will have a budget and it's up to him how he wants to spend it. If he is successful and gets more bums on seats, then he is in a stronger position to ask for more if he feels he needs to add to his playing or backroom staff, which has already happened with Gary Whild coming into the set up. We have to trust that the manager knows what he is doing and gets the best out of what he has to work with.

Also some of the surplus from gates receipts could be aimed at deal extensions for the likes of Omar & Danny Collins. Shaun Pearson (amongst others) is out of contract at the end of this term so it could also support agreeing terms prior to the end of this season.

I don't want to sound like a "reliable source" but JF has told someone who I think is pretty sensible that an average gate of over 4,800 means that the playing budget gets a boost.

The interesting word in there is "average" so it takes time for any excess gate receipts to land in the hand of the manager as like any SME financial budget it is based upon a period of retrospective performance rather than week to week spikes.  

In reality Marcus may not feel the benefit of the current jump in attendances until the close season.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

I don't want to sound like a "reliable source" but JF has told someone who I think is pretty sensible that an average gate of over 4,800 means that the playing budget gets a boost.

The interesting word in there is "average" so it takes time for any excess gate receipts to land in the hand of the manager as like any SME financial budget it is based upon a period of retrospective performance rather than week to week spikes.  

In reality Marcus may not feel the benefit of the current jump in attendances until the close season.

It will be assessed now the transfer window is open. We have had half our home games, we are out of the cups, so no extra income there and MB said there was a meeting last week about this and the summer window. Attendances will have been collated and decisions made on further playing budgets. At least that is what i imagine will have happened as i have no clue in reality. There was a Telewag article earlier in the season saying that we had gone past 1 million in gate receipts for the first time in yonks and was beyond expectations. Bringing in better players now can only keep the crowds coming back or increasing hopefully, so it's the old speculate to accumulate scenario.

Quoted from ginnywings

It will be assessed now the transfer window is open. We have had half our home games, we are out of the cups, so no extra income there and MB said there was a meeting last week about this and the summer window. Attendances will have been collated and decisions made on further playing budgets. At least that is what i imagine will have happened as i have no clue in reality. There was a Telewag article earlier in the season saying that we had gone past 1 million in gate receipts for the first time in yonks and was beyond expectations. Bringing in better players now can only keep the crowds coming back or increasing hopefully, so it's the old speculate to accumulate scenario.

Possibly but we may also sit on the surplus for a bit just in case we get half a dozen "below average" gates, who knows? What you may see though is a strange phenomenon for us and that is if Omar goes in this window any player we look at may have an inflated price tag as selling clubs will know we are sat on a bit of cash,

I'd be very surprised if the budget is worked out at an average of 4800 or anywhere close. They tend to budget conservatively ( which is sensible because if we were struggling at the bottom we would be perhaps struggling to reach 4000).

I would expect the budget to be set at around 3800- 4000 tops and as we are averaging over 5k that has to give the budget a boost hence we can get a couple more in this window.

The actual income per attendee is around £11 a head after VAT and costs. Expenditure on food and beers surely goes to the Caterers/Providers with a nominal sum to the club?

Quoted from Cloudy

I'd be very surprised if the budget is worked out at an average of 4800 or anywhere close. They tend to budget conservatively ( which is sensible because if we were struggling at the bottom we would be perhaps struggling to reach 4000).

I would expect the budget to be set at around 3800- 4000 tops and as we are averaging over 5k that has to give the budget a boost hence we can get a couple more in this window.

The actual income per attendee is around £11 a head after VAT and costs. Expenditure on food and beers surely goes to the Caterers/Providers with a nominal sum to the club?

I think you are right. The budget will be worked out with a known loss built in which the directors will cover. Bigger crowds will lower that known loss and at some point the crowd size will eradicate the losses or even move into profit. The board will then decide in the window whether to spend more on staff or use the income another way. The consistently bigger crowds this season must be a welcome boost to the club.

Quoted from ginnywings

I think you are right. The budget will be worked out with a known loss built in which the directors will cover. Bigger crowds will lower that known loss and at some point the crowd size will eradicate the losses or even move into profit. The board will then decide in the window whether to spend more on staff or use the income another way. The consistently bigger crowds this season must be a welcome boost to the club.

It pretty much works like this I think all income will go into the trading account - The P&L, which is basically income minus costs. Once costs have been taken out any positive surplus (profit) can be moved to the balance sheet in simple terms the savings account period by period usually monthly..

Any decision to release money from the balance sheet back into the budget which is part of the P&L will be made on how strong that balance sheet looks and matched against a forecast of what income will look like in the coming months. That income could be underwritten guaranteed funds in the form of director commitment or sponsorship and obviously gate receipts, commercial income, match day sundry revenue etc...  

What the above actually looks like and when Marcus will see any of it only the club and its accountants know but all being well it will filter through now to a degree to keep the feel good factor alive now and then in the form of a larger budget in the summer when player availability is usually better.

Quoted from Cloudy

I'd be very surprised if the budget is worked out at an average of 4800 or anywhere close. They tend to budget conservatively ( which is sensible because if we were struggling at the bottom we would be perhaps struggling to reach 4000).

I would expect the budget to be set at around 3800- 4000 tops and as we are averaging over 5k that has to give the budget a boost hence we can get a couple more in this window.

The actual income per attendee is around £11 a head after VAT and costs. Expenditure on food and beers surely goes to the Caterers/Providers with a nominal sum to the club?

The 4800 number is what we need to add to the existing playing budget not establish it, possibly I did not make it clear when I posted. Did the £11 ex vat attendee figure come from the accounts?