Democracy..... ?

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding on what's for dinner."

tbh never really understood what that meant....    

Seriously, could fan democracy work ?
Could the fishy's polls be like voting in the House of Commons ? (every fan is like an MP - not Mariner Player !  )

The spanner in the works to a straight fishy vote is IF you think people should contribute money to have a say.
(Personally I'm wondering if it's worth making any distinction)
But if so, "As much say as you pay" or one member one vote ?

Hang on though, can we have people donating 1p and still wanting a say ?
Or do we make a minimum "rule" ? Yearly, monthly ?
Do we vote on that too ?
Blimey ! See how complicated it gets ?

We need to establish what democracy is by democratic means - not easy !

I do believe democracy is achievable and if put it in place, maybe every fishy member would be chuffed to bits for "having a say".

But is the alternative to simply just raise (emergency) funds for e.g. the youth team ?

Do we need a straight fishy vote e.g. "youth team or fan democracy ?"
Or should it only be for those "willing particpants paying for something they don't actually know what they'll be getting yet" ?

Also, is it democratic for ME to just to stick up a poll and get people to vote for options of MY choosing ? Doesn't sound like it !  

Now maybe if people "forward a motion" then we can all decide Yay or Nay to it but who gets first run ?
First to win a majority vote gains overall control  ?
Similar to AGM's, boardroom meetings how would "fishy meetings" work ?

Geez, it gets really complicated doesn't it ?!!  

Maybe someone with a good idea or experience of board meetings etc can shed some light on how it should work.

Please help me out here - it's your baby !

You are going mental mate. . . you trying to launch a hostile takeover of gtfc from the change that mariners fans find behind their sofas and between their butt cheeks. . . now yiu are trying to define ' democracy for others. . . . Machiavellian is not often used in relationship to gtfc fans. . . rofl

Hostile takeover lol, simply opening up a debate of how fans could fairly proceed(if we can and want to) to do a little bit to help our club.

Geez Wimbledon managed to start from scratch !
Other clubs do it too, are they ALL "mental" ?  

As Homer Simpson says. When will people learn? Democracy doesn't work!

Yeah . . . but we have got a football club. . . It's just that they're sh1t! Sh1t at football, sh1t at commercially, sh1t in the transfer market, sh1t at picking managers, sh1t in midfield, sh1t at providing catering, sh1t at sacking unlucky bus drivets. . . . what makes you think that your £x000 is going to do anything other than be spent on more sh1t. . .

take your wives or girlfriends out for dinner if you're single. . . go and find yourself someone. . . Do something that might be worthwhile!

Quoted from 1600

The spanner in the works to a straight fishy vote is IF you think people should contribute money to have a say.
(Personally I'm wondering if it's worth making any distinction)
But if so, "As much say as you pay" or one member one vote ?

Hang on though, can we have people donating 1p and still wanting a say ?
Or do we make a minimum "rule" ? Yearly, monthly ?
Do we vote on that too ?
Blimey ! See how complicated it gets ?

The first paragraph describes a mutual organisation like a building society or the Co-op. Once upon a time building societies were good ideas becuase they were small, local, approachable and therefore accountable to the people who used them. Sadly many of them ended up merging as their small size meant they could not compete against the larger ones and some even became banks before they went bang. The largest building society in the country today is just that in structure; in every other respect it thinks and acts like a bank. Equally the Co-op struggles because it has too many layers of involvement and making a quick decision is nigh on impossible compared to their rivals.

What I guess I am saying is that mutual ownership only works well on a small scale basis and in order for that to remain one has to accept that you will have to remain small scale (ie lower leagues). To shoot up the divisions you have to find a wealthy mug with more money than sense to fund it (erm, I mean shrewd investor) and a general ability to know what he is doing (ie prepared to accept he'll lose money). At the same time that requires quick decision making; seeking the opinion of every member will only slow that down. Not good when you need to buy a player quickly.

Quoted from MeanwoodMariner

As Homer Simpson says. When will people learn? Democracy doesn't work!

If you ever want to see where democracy can take you watch 'The Rise and Rise of Michael Rimmer'. It's a much forgotten 1970's film starring Peter Cook but as a piece of political satire it is cracking.

I have a little experience in this in that I was tasked with developing the scrutiny arrangements for a Local Service Board (for those who don't know what that is , its simply the mechanism by which the local service board is held accountable. What's a local service board I hear you say and what does it do - it's the executives of various organisations in a County usually including the Council, Police Authority, NHS, Voluntary Sector and Business Sector representatives + a whole other load of possibilities depending on the area).

Firstly it's entirely acceptable for you to put up a poll, there is nothing wrong with putting forward your opinion on what the questions should be. You don't need to question whether you have the democratic mandate to set the questions as I would argue that freedom of expression is a fundamental principle of democracy, and more importantly if we start to question whether someone putting forward a question is democratic as the question was not considered by everyone before it was posed then we'll never get anywhere.  

I would say we need to develop an outline Terms of Reference for the fund stating in broad remit (probably several points I would expect). That I would propose could be decided by everyone on here, if anyone has a counter proposal please put it forward. Once the Terms of reference is in place then we would need to develop the mechanism by which people can join, first intellectually (i.e. how, voting rights, quorum for decisions etc), then  physically (i.e. the way the fund would actually be managed,website etc). I would suggest for this part someone with financial experience in running such funds will need to step forward and offer advice on how to do it.  

Quoted from kingofthekippers

At the same time that requires quick decision making; seeking the opinion of every member will only slow that down. Not good when you need to buy a player quickly.

Thanks for info and see what you mean but don't these mutuals have cumbersome meetings on set dates etc which slow it down ?
If it WAS e.g. a fishy vote then it could be done relatively quickly ? Or is that too hopeful ?

Would it be the managers asking fans for funds or fans giving the managers funds in advance ?

Swansea Mariner thanks too, I accept it's democracy to put up a poll or have an opinion, but what if you've got a whole range of proposals and counter-proposals and they ALL receive support ? Which get priority ?

To those who voted "No" what (if anything) would convince you that democracy could be achieved ?

More importantly, if the overriding consensus is that it can't be achieved (though I doubt if people want a say let alone have seriously thought about it) then what's the upshot ?

Just concentrate on saving (for) the youth team ?

Or am I taking it upon myself to implement "democracy" on behalf of those who say it can't work ?  

Good idea inntheory but as already stated, only really good enough if you want the club/organisation etc to stay relatively small...are there any clubs in the top two tiers running on this type of 'fan run' type thing? I don't think so and regardless of what wimbledon fans will say, if a rich 'honest' business man with lots of cash wanted to invest they would...not a flipping hippy twit like the last one but a bloke willing to invest they'd sell out tonthem in order to prolong the life of the club and drive into higher divisions...my opinion only of course.

May be we should worry about this if we have to start from scratch again with AFC Grimsby or something, summat i hope we never have to do to be honest...