Democracy..... ?

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding on what's for dinner."

tbh never really understood what that meant....    

Seriously, could fan democracy work ?
Could the fishy's polls be like voting in the House of Commons ? (every fan is like an MP - not Mariner Player !  )

The spanner in the works to a straight fishy vote is IF you think people should contribute money to have a say.
(Personally I'm wondering if it's worth making any distinction)
But if so, "As much say as you pay" or one member one vote ?

Hang on though, can we have people donating 1p and still wanting a say ?
Or do we make a minimum "rule" ? Yearly, monthly ?
Do we vote on that too ?
Blimey ! See how complicated it gets ?

We need to establish what democracy is by democratic means - not easy !

I do believe democracy is achievable and if put it in place, maybe every fishy member would be chuffed to bits for "having a say".

But is the alternative to simply just raise (emergency) funds for e.g. the youth team ?

Do we need a straight fishy vote e.g. "youth team or fan democracy ?"
Or should it only be for those "willing particpants paying for something they don't actually know what they'll be getting yet" ?

Also, is it democratic for ME to just to stick up a poll and get people to vote for options of MY choosing ? Doesn't sound like it !  

Now maybe if people "forward a motion" then we can all decide Yay or Nay to it but who gets first run ?
First to win a majority vote gains overall control  ?
Similar to AGM's, boardroom meetings how would "fishy meetings" work ?

Geez, it gets really complicated doesn't it ?!!  

Maybe someone with a good idea or experience of board meetings etc can shed some light on how it should work.

Please help me out here - it's your baby !

You are going mental mate. . . you trying to launch a hostile takeover of gtfc from the change that mariners fans find behind their sofas and between their butt cheeks. . . now yiu are trying to define ' democracy for others. . . . Machiavellian is not often used in relationship to gtfc fans. . . rofl

Hostile takeover lol, simply opening up a debate of how fans could fairly proceed(if we can and want to) to do a little bit to help our club.

Geez Wimbledon managed to start from scratch !
Other clubs do it too, are they ALL "mental" ?  

As Homer Simpson says. When will people learn? Democracy doesn't work!

Yeah . . . but we have got a football club. . . It's just that they're sh1t! Sh1t at football, sh1t at commercially, sh1t in the transfer market, sh1t at picking managers, sh1t in midfield, sh1t at providing catering, sh1t at sacking unlucky bus drivets. . . . what makes you think that your £x000 is going to do anything other than be spent on more sh1t. . .

take your wives or girlfriends out for dinner if you're single. . . go and find yourself someone. . . Do something that might be worthwhile!

Quoted from 1600

The spanner in the works to a straight fishy vote is IF you think people should contribute money to have a say.
(Personally I'm wondering if it's worth making any distinction)
But if so, "As much say as you pay" or one member one vote ?

Hang on though, can we have people donating 1p and still wanting a say ?
Or do we make a minimum "rule" ? Yearly, monthly ?
Do we vote on that too ?
Blimey ! See how complicated it gets ?

The first paragraph describes a mutual organisation like a building society or the Co-op. Once upon a time building societies were good ideas becuase they were small, local, approachable and therefore accountable to the people who used them. Sadly many of them ended up merging as their small size meant they could not compete against the larger ones and some even became banks before they went bang. The largest building society in the country today is just that in structure; in every other respect it thinks and acts like a bank. Equally the Co-op struggles because it has too many layers of involvement and making a quick decision is nigh on impossible compared to their rivals.

What I guess I am saying is that mutual ownership only works well on a small scale basis and in order for that to remain one has to accept that you will have to remain small scale (ie lower leagues). To shoot up the divisions you have to find a wealthy mug with more money than sense to fund it (erm, I mean shrewd investor) and a general ability to know what he is doing (ie prepared to accept he'll lose money). At the same time that requires quick decision making; seeking the opinion of every member will only slow that down. Not good when you need to buy a player quickly.

Quoted from MeanwoodMariner

As Homer Simpson says. When will people learn? Democracy doesn't work!

If you ever want to see where democracy can take you watch 'The Rise and Rise of Michael Rimmer'. It's a much forgotten 1970's film starring Peter Cook but as a piece of political satire it is cracking.

I have a little experience in this in that I was tasked with developing the scrutiny arrangements for a Local Service Board (for those who don't know what that is , its simply the mechanism by which the local service board is held accountable. What's a local service board I hear you say and what does it do - it's the executives of various organisations in a County usually including the Council, Police Authority, NHS, Voluntary Sector and Business Sector representatives + a whole other load of possibilities depending on the area).

Firstly it's entirely acceptable for you to put up a poll, there is nothing wrong with putting forward your opinion on what the questions should be. You don't need to question whether you have the democratic mandate to set the questions as I would argue that freedom of expression is a fundamental principle of democracy, and more importantly if we start to question whether someone putting forward a question is democratic as the question was not considered by everyone before it was posed then we'll never get anywhere.  

I would say we need to develop an outline Terms of Reference for the fund stating in broad remit (probably several points I would expect). That I would propose could be decided by everyone on here, if anyone has a counter proposal please put it forward. Once the Terms of reference is in place then we would need to develop the mechanism by which people can join, first intellectually (i.e. how, voting rights, quorum for decisions etc), then  physically (i.e. the way the fund would actually be managed,website etc). I would suggest for this part someone with financial experience in running such funds will need to step forward and offer advice on how to do it.  

Quoted from kingofthekippers

At the same time that requires quick decision making; seeking the opinion of every member will only slow that down. Not good when you need to buy a player quickly.

Thanks for info and see what you mean but don't these mutuals have cumbersome meetings on set dates etc which slow it down ?
If it WAS e.g. a fishy vote then it could be done relatively quickly ? Or is that too hopeful ?

Would it be the managers asking fans for funds or fans giving the managers funds in advance ?

Swansea Mariner thanks too, I accept it's democracy to put up a poll or have an opinion, but what if you've got a whole range of proposals and counter-proposals and they ALL receive support ? Which get priority ?

To those who voted "No" what (if anything) would convince you that democracy could be achieved ?

More importantly, if the overriding consensus is that it can't be achieved (though I doubt if people want a say let alone have seriously thought about it) then what's the upshot ?

Just concentrate on saving (for) the youth team ?

Or am I taking it upon myself to implement "democracy" on behalf of those who say it can't work ?  

Good idea inntheory but as already stated, only really good enough if you want the club/organisation etc to stay relatively small...are there any clubs in the top two tiers running on this type of 'fan run' type thing? I don't think so and regardless of what wimbledon fans will say, if a rich 'honest' business man with lots of cash wanted to invest they would...not a flipping hippy twit like the last one but a bloke willing to invest they'd sell out tonthem in order to prolong the life of the club and drive into higher divisions...my opinion only of course.

May be we should worry about this if we have to start from scratch again with AFC Grimsby or something, summat i hope we never have to do to be honest...

Wasn't trying to replace the club - just trying to find a fair framework where fans could have their say in giving it a little cash to help it along.

Maybe it's gonna die a death but still think it might be worth putting some effort in to save some emergency funds in the meantime e.g. for the youth team.

If sh1t does happen (just taking precautions) I'd rather dip into an overflowing piggy bank than take a big hit on my bank account.

if we had democratic team selection over the last 3 years we would have a formation of 1-1-2 & be even lower

You mean the players were sh1t ?
Don't see how you can blame the fans for that ?....

just saying the left back(in the changing room) position would be the most popular selection

Quoted from aldi_01

Good idea inntheory but as already stated, only really good enough if you want the club/organisation etc to stay relatively small...are there any clubs in the top two tiers running on this type of 'fan run' type thing? I don't think so and regardless of what wimbledon fans will say, if a rich 'honest' business man with lots of cash wanted to invest they would...not a flipping hippy twit like the last one but a bloke willing to invest they'd sell out tonthem in order to prolong the life of the club and drive into higher divisions...my opinion only of course.

May be we should worry about this if we have to start from scratch again with AFC Grimsby or something, summat i hope we never have to do to be honest...

I don't think this idea has anything to do with an attempt to buy the club, and truth be told neither should it because frankly the types of funds needed for that are way beyond scope. This should be something entirely separate from GTFC (the organisation) but for the benefit of GTFC. I would even go so far to say that in my opinion the fund should not be used for the purchase of shares in the club - my reason for this is that I wouldn't want the money poured into the black hole in finance thereby allowing the directors to put a little less in.

I think as a fund when areas for investment are identified by the fund holders then it should be match funded by the current board - just like any organsiation would when bidding into a fund. What I mean by this is if we were able to raise say 60K then before that was invested in say for example the youth set up,  the board would have to agree to provide x amount of money into the youth set up also (thereby ensuring its continuation). Or it may even be possible to negotiate some kind of minimum investment by the board in the youth set up which would then allow them to access the fund for additional developmental things which the club has not been able to afford before - I'm thinking specialist equipment, specialist coaching etc. If the minimum funding was not reached the fund would roll over or the group could decide to invest it some other way.  

I'm thinking £5 a month is something most people could afford - if 1000 people were to take part that would be 60K a year. Would that be a number that is feasible to reach I mean how many members of this website are there in total? The telegraph could run a campaign to attract people to take part also.  

Quoted from Swansea_Mariner

I don't think this idea has anything to do with an attempt to buy the club, and truth be told neither should it because frankly the types of funds needed for that are way beyond scope. This should be something entirely separate from GTFC (the organisation) but for the benefit of GTFC. I would even go so far to say that in my opinion the fund should not be used for the purchase of shares in the club - my reason for this is that I wouldn't want the money poured into the black hole in finance thereby allowing the directors to put a little less in.

WHS  (of course I still urge you to buy shares in the club too !)

Swansea Mariner I can see your other points too and some good ideas but I don't really understand this idea of the board "guaranteeing investment" to the fans.

They're unlikely to guarantee anything are they ?
Just to get their hands on a few quid they need/can't afford that they also need to match ?
Especially in case of emergency ?
Sorry not convinced as yet....

I think we should just be happy that we have a football club.
I doubt we'll achieve league status again so let's enjoy what we've got or just do something more entertaining on a weekend.

Quoted from Swansea_Mariner

I'm thinking £5 a month is something most people could afford - if 1000 people were to take part that would be 60K a year. Would that be a number that is feasible to reach I mean how many members of this website are there in total? The telegraph could run a campaign to attract people to take part also.  

To be honest I'd rather give £5 a month to a charity that helps the vulnerable than use it to effectively subsidise a privately-owned limited company.

Quoted from kingofthekippers

To be honest I'd rather give £5 a month to a charity that helps the vulnerable than use it to effectively subsidise a privately-owned limited company.

That's it, it's changed from your loose change to a £5/10 p/m direct debit!
Much as I love the club I would feel that my priorities were seriously fecked up if I did that.

The guarantees would just be used to ensure that they couldn't take the money and then decide to flush the youth system down the pan midway through the season.

As for subsidising a private investment, don't you effectively do that every time you buy a ticket or a kit etc, when you spend that money you have no say in how its used, this would be something different - hence the thread title - effectively you'd have a voice in how something at the club was delivered.  

It's worked at Wimbledon and FC United but let's not forget that they were formed by decidedly angry fans with a real cause, there are examples where it hasn't worked due to infighting and power struggles. It's a model that seems to work best when a club's very existence or character is under threat, triumph over adversity and all that.

Quoted from upthestripes

That's it, it's changed from your loose change to a £5/10 p/m direct debit!
Much as I love the club I would feel that my priorities were seriously fecked up if I did that.

Exactly UTS !
What did I say ?....

1) We should cater for everyone big or small.
2) If it ends up subsidising the club's operations then it defeats the whole purpose.

I've read many comments which add 2 and 2 and make 5.  

Swansea Mariner isn't helping either IMO !  

If you read all my posts 80's IO've said several times its not about subsidising operations so I can't see where your coming from on that point. On the point of saving in a jar under the bed I think Ginny said it best in that nobody is ever gonna resist the temptation of dipping into it so I just can't see small change working unless its more organised than that.

Its your idea though and if you think I'm not helping then I'll step back and this is the last you'll hear from me about this.

Don't get me wrong, it may have been my initial idea but I don't want to be dictator either so feel free to have your say.

Suppose I just don't understand your thinking - you say "This should be something entirely separate from GTFC (the organisation)" then talk about the organisation matching things !

My whole point was to get fans to collectively save for the future in case the club were potless or couldn't raise the funds ?

To be fair I suppose the problem is there's a very fine line between "subsidising" something and "saving" something.

Anyway I apologize for my comment or if you took offence, I just feel frustrated that the idea of "saving for the future" is such a difficult one to understand - it seems to turn into "contributing" in a flash changing the whole ball game.

If you want to raise funds to contribute extra for the club for certain things then feel free to take the initative - I'll support it and make a donation.

Quoted from Swansea_Mariner

On the point of saving in a jar under the bed I think Ginny said it best in that nobody is ever gonna resist the temptation of dipping into it so I just can't see small change working unless its more organised than that.

I missed this bit...
For intercourse sake if we haven't got the courage of our convictions to do the small things, there's no chance !
Who says it wouldn't be organised either ?

The ways things look fans couldn't organise a urine up in a brewery.

Let me tell you - with the economy going down the toliet if they can't afford a bit of loose change now they sure as hell won't be able to afford it later if they ever need to rebuild a club from scratch like AFC Wimbledon have done !
"Once the recession is over" is it ? Don't make me laugh !

What's your game trying to ridicule the idea of saving Swansea ?
Shame on you.