Ive just heard about the 2 lads today

Im gutted for their families and would just like to say please give generously for the poppy appeal and also if you can attend the Services etc please do so and show their families WE DO CARE about OUR soldiers lives even if the government dont.RIP lads

just heard ........shitty times for our brave grimsby boys.......2 lives lost in an unwinnable war rip

rip

It is always sad when any young person dies. But our armed forces are made up entirely from volunteers. Volunteers who, presumably, are well educated enough to know that if they join up they may well be required to kill innocent Afghan civilians; and in the process of doing that be killed themselves. About 1400 coalition combatants have been killed since 2002. Too many! Nobody has bothered to count the tens of thousands of Afghans who have suffered the same fate during that time. Why should they? The average life expectancy in that country is 44; 53% of the population live below the poverty line; 72% are illiterate and 40% are unemployed. An Afghan life is clearly not worth remembering on Poppy Day, even though it may have been the perfectly innocent life of an unarmed woman or child, who didn't even know why those foreign soldiers were in their country. But their grieving families may, eventually, know that these men were there to prop up the corrupt Karzai government, many of whose leading lights owe their wealth to the heroin trade ... a trade, incidentally, which the Taleban had reduced by 90% before the coalition forces arrived - and which has mushroomed again since our troops have been there. Remember our 'brave boys' by all means ... but remember their victims too!

Wear YOUR poppy with PRIDE, those agents that got us in to this mess, wear YOUR poppy with a sense of GUILT.

Quoted from porkies

It is always sad when any young person dies. But our armed forces are made up entirely from volunteers. Volunteers who, presumably, are well educated enough to know that if they join up they may well be required to kill innocent Afghan civilians; and in the process of doing that be killed themselves. About 1400 coalition combatants have been killed since 2002. Too many! Nobody has bothered to count the tens of thousands of Afghans who have suffered the same fate during that time. Why should they? The average life expectancy in that country is 44; 53% of the population live below the poverty line; 72% are illiterate and 40% are unemployed. An Afghan life is clearly not worth remembering on Poppy Day, even though it may have been the perfectly innocent life of an unarmed woman or child, who didn't even know why those foreign soldiers were in their country. But their grieving families may, eventually, know that these men were there to prop up the corrupt Karzai government, many of whose leading lights owe their wealth to the heroin trade ... a trade, incidentally, which the Taleban had reduced by 90% before the coalition forces arrived - and which has mushroomed again since our troops have been there. Remember our 'brave boys' by all means ... but remember their victims too!

Very, very good post.

But also remember - in this country young people are manipulated too, albeit to a much lesser extent. They are offered qualifications, travel experiences, extreme sports, recreational activities - all the distract the fact they they are actually being trained to kill and die. No military advert mentions war. I remember being given career advice. The majority of people, including me, were given leaflets and suggestions about the army. This was only 3 years ago by the way - I never mentioned the army and was just as much of a pacifist back then as I am now.

You make a brilliant humanitarian point about the value of human life. I completely agree, we forget the civilian casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan. And the Taliban casualties too. Do frontline Taliban soldiers really want to fight, or believe in what they are fighting for? If so, why is this? One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. We demonise militant soldiers in the Middle East but most people have a complete ignorance about the history of Western intervention and what the motivation is for joining up. Through past experience there is enough mistrust for people to sign up. And lets not forget the classic trick: axis of evil. The Taliban are NOT Al Queda. Saddam Hussein was not Taliban or Al Queda. Let's not be swept into the American-led umbrella definition of "terrorist".

All war is a failure of diplomacy.

You fasten all the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
While the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
While the young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud

etc. etc.

RIP lads.

It would appear Afghanistan seems to be turning into our Vietnam - RIP

RIP the two Grimsby lads. Terrible loss.

Whatever your opinions of the politicians who have lied through their teeth,and failed miserably to support our young men with enough of the correct equipment and at a pace consistant with a war footing, these young men who have taken the Queen's shilling deserve our utmost support both whilst serving and afterwards.They do this in our name.

It must be remembered that the bulk of politicians and notably Brown and the criminal Blair have never had to go into battle,have never done military service and so do not and never will understand the shear horror of it nor the consequences of what the cowboy americans call collateral damage. The invasion of Iraq was illegal,the invasion of Afghanistan was ill advised considering its history although marginally understandable.

When you sign up for military service you do so on the understanding that those who issue orders and are responsible for strategy do these things for the good of our nation and for the the well being of the world. Sadly they have been let down by the greed and a kneejerk reactions of what are supposed to be the leaders of the western world.God help us.
Any nation that considers rendition a legitimate part of war,and puts its prisoners outside its own legal jurisdiction should be considered as being led by war criminals.Don't get me wrong there are some really nasty things which have to be done in the name of war,things which people who have never been there would find difficult to condone,but to put your prisoners into situations outside your own laws so they may tortured and held indefinately makes you as bad as you think the people are who you are fighting.

I've rambled on but the families of the young men who have sacrificed their lives deserve all the support and love we can give them.

terrible waste of life RIP

What about a minutes silence in their memory before Saturdays game?

Quoted from PrestwichMariner

What about a minutes silence in their memory before Saturdays game?

That has been mentioned elsewhere. We are all expecting it.

rip fellas

Quoted from theicenian

Whatever your opinions of the politicians who have lied through their teeth,and failed miserably to support our young men with enough of the correct equipment and at a pace consistant with a war footing, these young men who have taken the Queen's shilling deserve our utmost support both whilst serving and afterwards.They do this in our name.

It must be remembered that the bulk of politicians and notably Brown and the criminal Blair have never had to go into battle,have never done military service and so do not and never will understand the shear horror of it nor the consequences of what the cowboy americans call collateral damage. The invasion of Iraq was illegal,the invasion of Afghanistan was ill advised considering its history although marginally understandable.

When you sign up for military service you do so on the understanding that those who issue orders and are responsible for strategy do these things for the good of our nation and for the the well being of the world. Sadly they have been let down by the greed and a kneejerk reactions of what are supposed to be the leaders of the western world.God help us.
Any nation that considers rendition a legitimate part of war,and puts its prisoners outside its own legal jurisdiction should be considered as being led by war criminals.Don't get me wrong there are some really nasty things which have to be done in the name of war,things which people who have never been there would find difficult to condone,but to put your prisoners into situations outside your own laws so they may tortured and held indefinately makes you as bad as you think the people are who you are fighting.

I've rambled on but the families of the young men who have sacrificed their lives deserve all the support and love we can give them.

First of all my thoughts are with these two lads and the poor families who now have to carry on without them...RIP

I heard the breaking news on the way to work yesterday morning and thought how very sad but on leaving work last night to know how close to home this is, really made me feel sick...

I totally agree about us supporting the forces and while I don't support this "war" and I sympathise totally that they what they are doing over there is just what they are told to, I do question who these lads/lasses are serving??

I keep hearing our forces are out there "in our name", "serving our country" etc etc, but the more this goes on my view is they are serving only the establishment of this country.

They've been badly let down and history is repeating itself with our lions....

I wish there was some easy way to pull ourselves out of this turmoil but it's like being in a swamp - we're struggling and the more we do so, the further we get caught up in the mire  

Don't get blinded by the "serving the establishment" argument. They're there, preventing a lot of drug trafficking. Not a complete block I agree, but lots nevertheless.

Also, every Al Qaeda training cell that is disrupted (and you don't get to hear about 90% of them that are broken up) is preventing people like the London bombers and 9/11 hijackers from carrying out their "training" (Though how much training one needs to strap dynamite to your body is beyond me. One may presume that it's indoctrination and brainwashing into believing the will of these lunatics is the will of Allah.)

Make no mistake. The western presence in Afghan IS making a difference to all our lives. There's fewer Islamic fundamentalists coming out of there now than before and less heroin being exported all over the globe.

These guys did NOT give the ultimate sacrifice in vain. They will be remembered. RIP.

Quoted from Biccys

Don't get blinded by the "serving the establishment" argument. They're there, preventing a lot of drug trafficking. Not a complete block I agree, but lots nevertheless.

Also, every Al Qaeda training cell that is disrupted (and you don't get to hear about 90% of them that are broken up) is preventing people like the London bombers and 9/11 hijackers from carrying out their "training" (Though how much training one needs to strap dynamite to your body is beyond me. One may presume that it's indoctrination and brainwashing into believing the will of these lunatics is the will of Allah.)

I thought they were fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan?

Also, it's not about Islam or religion at the root. You know why they want to fight back? Take a history lesson in Western imperialism.

The drug trafficking argument is ridiculous. By destroying poppy fields we destroy communities and livelihoods. You know what actions like that serve as? The Talibans biggest recruitment tool.

This is the same old story - the middle east is our playground. Has been for a while. Nice little testing ground for US vs. Russia vs. China. Who do you think armed Al Qaueda by the way? Britain and the US. Bin Laden was CIA trained for felicitations sake. Who arms Iran? Russia and China. Who armed Saddam? The US. Who arms Israel? The US. Who arms Hezbollah? Iran funded by Russia and China. It's the super-power's little chess board. We use middle eastern countries when it suits us (arming Al Qeuda to defeat Russia in Afghanistan) but then turn around and blow them up. They have been ripped apart by the West for centuries. That is a bigger recruitment motivation that any "Islamic fundamentalism".

The whole thing stinks of hypocrisy. There is little difference between a stealth bomber and a suicide bomber.

The Taliban were deposed as the "governing" body relatively quickly. It's the training "camps" the focus is on now.

The Afghans are a very proud race. But at the root of their national pride is the Islamic religion. You can't deny it. They outfought the Russians with the CIA's help. This was seen as a huge coup in the CIA as the Russians were the evil threat of Communism. Well, things didn't really work out right for the US did they?! Here they are now struggling against the side they thought had been backed correctly. Politics. Constantly changing and different governments have made a lot of problems in the region worse, I agree.

The drug trafficking argument is not ridiculous at all. The communities and livelihoods that are destroyed by stopping the illegal production of narcotics has a direct impact on everyone's life. Less heroin coming into this country cannot be construed as a bad thing can it?! Stop the root of the problem and the problem goes away. It's not just a UK problem either. All over the globe, the heroin problem exists. If the production is lessened, that is reason enough to be there destroying the fields.

It does stink of hypocrisy I agree, but the reasons for going into Afghanistan are, at the present  time, valid. IMO.

Quoted from Biccys

The drug trafficking argument is not ridiculous at all. The communities and livelihoods that are destroyed by stopping the illegal production of narcotics has a direct impact on everyone's life. Less heroin coming into this country cannot be construed as a bad thing can it?! Stop the root of the problem and the problem goes away. It's not just a UK problem either. All over the globe, the heroin problem exists. If the production is lessened, that is reason enough to be there destroying the fields.

But it's not the root of the problem at all. It's a primitive and illogical product of the "war on drugs".

The root of the problem is prohibition. Decriminalise, regulate, and get rid of the illegal trade.

Or even if you agree with drugs prohibition (which causes more harm than the drugs themselves) surely you can accept that the "root" of the problem is demand? Destroy as many poppy fields as you like, but as long as the demand is there, somebody will always find a way to supply. That's the way capitalism works, and the drugs trade is neoliberalism and capitalist at it's most pure - it is devoid of regulation of any kind.

Meanwhile we're pushing more people to join the militant operations fighting against our occupation, and leaving those with no social security with little choice but to reluctantly be aided by the Taliban. But excrement, there's no more heroin in our country right? Wrong. People will always demand it. And whilst it's prohibited, that demand will come from illegal trade. Decriminalise. Regulate heavily. Don't believe the shite about destroying the poppy fields to end the heroin trade, anyone with any intelligence knows that is not logical.

There are political reasons behind this war that have nothing to do with our best interests as a population. We are there to gain a stronghold in the middle east, in preparation for the next stand-off between the powerful nations.

Quoted from porkies

It is always sad when any young person dies. But our armed forces are made up entirely from volunteers. Volunteers who, presumably, are well educated enough to know that if they join up they may well be required to kill innocent Afghan civilians; and in the process of doing that be killed themselves. About 1400 coalition combatants have been killed since 2002. Too many! Nobody has bothered to count the tens of thousands of Afghans who have suffered the same fate during that time. Why should they? The average life expectancy in that country is 44; 53% of the population live below the poverty line; 72% are illiterate and 40% are unemployed. An Afghan life is clearly not worth remembering on Poppy Day, even though it may have been the perfectly innocent life of an unarmed woman or child, who didn't even know why those foreign soldiers were in their country. But their grieving families may, eventually, know that these men were there to prop up the corrupt Karzai government, many of whose leading lights owe their wealth to the heroin trade ... a trade, incidentally, which the Taleban had reduced by 90% before the coalition forces arrived - and which has mushroomed again since our troops have been there. Remember our 'brave boys' by all means ... but remember their victims too!

You can by all means lay a crescent memorial(available from the British Legion in the Town centre) for any Muslim who has fought and died during conflict. The Coalition do not kill INNOCENT civilians on purpose, when it happens, it is a tragedy regardless of race or religion.
Whilst we have been in Afghanistan, we have helped over 6 million children gain an education and you would not believe the amount of lives saved by the fantastic medical services provided by the coalition. I have seen it first hand and alot of Afghan people are very thankful for the support.  

Quoted from Biccys

Don't get blinded by the "serving the establishment" argument. They're there, preventing a lot of drug trafficking. Not a complete block I agree, but lots nevertheless.

Also, every Al Qaeda training cell that is disrupted (and you don't get to hear about 90% of them that are broken up) is preventing people like the London bombers and 9/11 hijackers from carrying out their "training" (Though how much training one needs to strap dynamite to your body is beyond me. One may presume that it's indoctrination and brainwashing into believing the will of these lunatics is the will of Allah.)

Make no mistake. The western presence in Afghan IS making a difference to all our lives. There's fewer Islamic fundamentalists coming out of there now than before and less heroin being exported all over the globe.

These guys did NOT give the ultimate sacrifice in vain. They will be remembered. RIP.

Thanks for that information and good to hear a different perspective which would not normally come to the fore.When put like that it helps to understand the reasons why we are there

RIP

Quoted from MarinerWY

But it's not the root of the problem at all. It's a primitive and illogical product of the "war on drugs".

The root of the problem is prohibition. Decriminalise, regulate, and get rid of the illegal trade.

Or even if you agree with drugs prohibition (which causes more harm than the drugs themselves) surely you can accept that the "root" of the problem is demand? Destroy as many poppy fields as you like, but as long as the demand is there, somebody will always find a way to supply. That's the way capitalism works, and the drugs trade is neoliberalism and capitalist at it's most pure - it is devoid of regulation of any kind.

Meanwhile we're pushing more people to join the militant operations fighting against our occupation, and leaving those with no social security with little choice but to reluctantly be aided by the Taliban. But excrement, there's no more heroin in our country right? Wrong. People will always demand it. And whilst it's prohibited, that demand will come from illegal trade. Decriminalise. Regulate heavily. Don't believe the shite about destroying the poppy fields to end the heroin trade, anyone with any intelligence knows that is not logical.

There are political reasons behind this war that have nothing to do with our best interests as a population. We are there to gain a stronghold in the middle east, in preparation for the next stand-off between the powerful nations.

So you're happy to legalise heroin as long as it's regulated (and presumably taxed)? I think you'll be in a very small minority there..

Of course there's heroin in our country. And yes, there always will be. But should we not attempt to stop it? Growing poppy's in Afghanistan IS ILLEGAL. And drug use is also counter to Muslim beliefs. The demand for heroin (or legally, morphine)is there, and always will be, but why should we not make an effort in stopping the source to remove it and therefore choke the demand by removing the supply?

Hi Folks - just to let you know that I have been in touch with John Fenty today, and he has confirmed that there are plans for a minutes silence (note - not applause) prior to Saturdays match.

Cheers,
Emma B - GTST Chair

Quoted from Grim_Exile

Hi Folks - just to let you know that I have been in touch with John Fenty today, and he has confirmed that there are plans for a minutes silence (note - not applause) prior to Saturdays match.

Cheers,
Emma B - GTST Chair

Tah,and as expected,well done him.

Quoted from Biccys

So you're happy to legalise heroin as long as it's regulated (and presumably taxed)? I think you'll be in a very small minority there..

Of course there's heroin in our country. And yes, there always will be. But should we not attempt to stop it? Growing poppy's in Afghanistan IS ILLEGAL. And drug use is also counter to Muslim beliefs. The demand for heroin (or legally, morphine)is there, and always will be, but why should we not make an effort in stopping the source to remove it and therefore choke the demand by removing the supply?

Yes, systems of decriminalisation of heroin in European countries have led to less addicts. You don't just give heroin away, you distribute it in a reduced manner each time in accordance with open rehabilitation programs. It treats addiction as an illness, not a criminal offence. Addicts don't hide away in fear of prosecution and therefore have help. It has also cut off the supply of money routed to criminal organisations.

Growing poppies in Afghanistan wasn't illegal, actually. Drug use is counter to Muslim beliefs, but Afghanis did not use heroin, they cultivated the opium and the West buys it. We are the reason their economy is based on drugs production, so surely to tackle the root, we need to turn our attention to our society?

However, legalising it stabilises demand. 90% of the worlds opium comes from Afghanistan. If the US/UK/NATO armies were not there, it would be under Taliban rule. Therefore, any demand, would fund the taliban.

The strategy has changed in Afghanistan and is no longer about destroying fields. It's about going after the drug lords. It's about offering incentives for farmers to cultivate other crops. This can not be enforced without an effective goverment in place, we can't be there forever. Criticisms of Karzai's goverment being corrupt isn't far wide of the mark, however, Abdullah Abdullah pulled out of the race to ensure that the country got back on it's feet at a critical time. Clearly preferring democracy and Karzai to the taliban. Which can probably be fairly decided via vote when there is better security in place. Bailing out isn't an option when the country isn't strong enough to defend itself and will fall back into taliban hands.

On the topic of tackling our own society... yeah, fair enough, but then their biggest customers are Russia and have significant number of clients in Europe. We do not have juristiction over these countries and have no ability to influence their policies. So effectively, you're saying lets turn a blind eye and hope political mechanisms eventually turn around to a radical and not wholly sound policy. In the mean time, Taliban's finances will be going through the roof. Cutting off supply is a legitimate method and their will be aid in place to ensure farmers grow other crops. It's just a matter of helping the Afghan nation defend itself. However, that becomes very difficult when increasing troop numbers is a negative political issue that no-one dare address and armies are understaffed and underarmed there. I'd rather we supported the people in there, the people who have put their life on the line and the people who are most at risk as a direct result of poor resourcing. I'd rather people's deaths weren't for no reason what so ever.

Look whatever the rights and wrongs of this War please just remember 2 Grimsby lads are dead and according to reports murdered in cold blood so can we all at 3pm Saturday do the RIGHT thing and for one minute be quiet and respectful.As i say if im off work when the funerals take place i fully intend to pay my respects again and show their families that their fellow Grimbarians do care and i would hope many others feel the same way.RIP

Quoted from MarinerWY

Yes, systems of decriminalisation of heroin in European countries have led to less addicts. You don't just give heroin away, you distribute it in a reduced manner each time in accordance with open rehabilitation programs. It treats addiction as an illness, not a criminal offence. Addicts don't hide away in fear of prosecution and therefore have help. It has also cut off the supply of money routed to criminal organisations.

Growing poppies in Afghanistan wasn't illegal, actually. Drug use is counter to Muslim beliefs, but Afghanis did not use heroin, they cultivated the opium and the West buys it. We are the reason their economy is based on drugs production, so surely to tackle the root, we need to turn our attention to our society?

Sorry, but that's just wrong.
http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1067737.html
http://www.unmultimedia.org/tv/unifeed/d/12590.html
There's lots of literature out there to back this up.

And ask many of the soldiers that have been out there. Many locals are not trusted because they're constantly stoned. Either smashed on poppy or hash. The recent documentaries on life there for the infantry regiments highlighted this.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with you that WE (the West and also Russia) have promulgated this massive problem, and we should be looking at our own society. And that's the reason we're there. Cutting the poppy supply off will stop the drugs coming in. No more heroin, no more heroin problem. Afghanistan produces something like 90% of the worlds heroin. Cut that out of the market and the remaining 10% gets very expensive and out of reach of the majority of the users out there.

There's plenty of farmers throughout the world that cultivate crops without resorting to growing poppies. The aid agencies out in Afghan ARE helping those farmers whose fields have been destroyed to grow other profitable crops.

Your option of legalising it (IMO) is ridiculous. Saying that decriminalising it has produced less addicts is absolutely nuts.

Logically, if it's legal, MORE people will use, therefore pushing the number of addicts UP... Making it not a criminal offence to posses heroin isn't going to stop those that are taking it now, and it's going to encourage those that aren't taking to do so!

Anyway, I think that's enough. I'd be happy to have a further conversation about this, but not on the forum. Either on a Non footy thread or by PM.

Quoted from Biccys

Sorry, but that's just wrong.
http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1067737.html
http://www.unmultimedia.org/tv/unifeed/d/12590.html
There's lots of literature out there to back this up.

And ask many of the soldiers that have been out there. Many locals are not trusted because they're constantly stoned. Either smashed on poppy or hash. The recent documentaries on life there for the infantry regiments highlighted this.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with you that WE (the West and also Russia) have promulgated this massive problem, and we should be looking at our own society. And that's the reason we're there. Cutting the poppy supply off will stop the drugs coming in. No more heroin, no more heroin problem. Afghanistan produces something like 90% of the worlds heroin. Cut that out of the market and the remaining 10% gets very expensive and out of reach of the majority of the users out there.

There's plenty of farmers throughout the world that cultivate crops without resorting to growing poppies. The aid agencies out in Afghan ARE helping those farmers whose fields have been destroyed to grow other profitable crops.

Your option of legalising it (IMO) is ridiculous. Saying that decriminalising it has produced less addicts is absolutely nuts.

Logically, if it's legal, MORE people will use, therefore pushing the number of addicts UP... Making it not a criminal offence to posses heroin isn't going to stop those that are taking it now, and it's going to encourage those that aren't taking to do so!Anyway, I think that's enough. I'd be happy to have a further conversation about this, but not on the forum. Either on a Non footy thread or by PM.

I think you should investigate goings on in portugal, as i believe they are reaping the benefits of decriminalisation.

Back to the thread it is frightening that people are losing their lives before they have had the chance to live them and my thoughts go out to the poor families of the dead.

Quoted from headingly_mariner

I think you should investigate goings on in portugal, as i believe they are reaping the benefits of decriminalisation.

Back to the thread it is frightening that people are losing their lives before they have had the chance to live them and my thoughts go out to the poor families of the dead.

we are growing opium poppies in britain under home office control for the nhs currently in britain today. . . surely it would be beneficial to utilise the crop grown in afghanistan??.  

Quoted from MarinerWY

Yes, systems of decriminalisation of heroin in European countries have led to less addicts. You don't just give heroin away, you distribute it in a reduced manner each time in accordance with open rehabilitation programs. It treats addiction as an illness, not a criminal offence. Addicts don't hide away in fear of prosecution and therefore have help. It has also cut off the supply of money routed to criminal organisations.

Growing poppies in Afghanistan wasn't illegal, actually. Drug use is counter to Muslim beliefs, but Afghanis did not use heroin, they cultivated the opium and the West buys it. We are the reason their economy is based on drugs production, so surely to tackle the root, we need to turn our attention to our society?

1. The opium grown in Afghanistan is the best in the world and widely used in pharmaceuticals, morphine and the like.

2. Some Afghanis like growing poppies because they like money - drugs, although they make a small amount out of it compared to our finances.

3. Some Afghanis want to grow other crops but are forced by the Taliban to grow poppies under the threat of death of them and their whole family.

4. Some Afghanis are addicts so you are wrong. Also insurgents are often high on drugs or adrenaline when fighting.

5. Civilians get caught in the cross fire not by ISAF but by the insurgents who open up on anyone, they are often foreign fighters.

6. Insurgents will fight, run into compounds regardless of who is there, fight a bit more then drop their weapons and walk off leaving injured or dead civilians.

7. Poppies have been grown in Afghanistan for decades, mainly by local warlords to raise cash for arms.

8. Afghanis don't want the Taliban but will always follow who ever has the power.