Twenty First Group / Overseas Market

Really interesting interview from the guys at NotTheTop20 Pod with Omar Chaudhuri who is the Chief Information Officer at Twenty First Group - https://podfollow.com/1112915286/episode/bc62c8b31898b20e02e5456039effbef84364818/view

I think it's fair to say we've not yet seen any impact from the link up with Twenty First Group so far (not saying stuff isn't happening) but lots and lots of talk in the interview about the lack of League One and League Two clubs taking advantage of the refreshed and relaxed rules around bringing in foreign players.

Good conversation around why this is generally the case (mainly high risk, lack of re-sale market if unsuccessful etc.) but this and a couple of comments from Artell make me think we'll see a bit of activity in this arena this summer.  The question will be in which market.  Chaudhuri was prompted for which are the untapped markets but he was quite guarded (as expected) about that but gave a good insight in that it's not a simple of case of targeting just a region or a league (huge difference in quality at the top end to the bottom end of the Eredivisie for example).

Anyway, well worth 50 minutes of your listening.

Obviously the bulk of our summer business will be done within the more normal channels- players who have previously played under the manager, agents "recommendations" and scouting possible signings but we might be able to pick up the odd gem.

Might being the operative word there as it is just as much a lottery, perhaps more so.

I'm sure we understand we need a solid league 2 squad for next season who weren't brought in to play out of position, have a terrible injury record, have relegation in their DNA and have the pace of a geriatric tortoise.

It's a big, big summer coming up assuming we stay up.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

Obviously the bulk of our summer business will be done within the more normal channels- players who have previously played under the manager, agents "recommendations" and scouting possible signings but we might be able to pick up the odd gem.

Might being the operative word there as it is just as much a lottery, perhaps more so.

I'm sure we understand we need a solid league 2 squad for next season who weren't brought in to play out of position, have a terrible injury record, have relegation in their DNA and have the pace of a geriatric tortoise.

It's a big, big summer coming up assuming we stay up.

Good post. As far as pace goes, I can't think of the last genuine quickie we signed in the last five years. Plenty arrive with the 'pacy' label attached, e.g Obikwu,  but it is soon apparent that the opposite is true.

I make no assumptions at this stage. The form guide, ppg, our record against Barrow are all irrelevant. I'll be there in hope but not expectation. As Chaos and Ginny know, The Lakes is an unpredictable destination.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

Obviously the bulk of our summer business will be done within the more normal channels- players who have previously played under the manager, agents "recommendations" and scouting possible signings but we might be able to pick up the odd gem.

Might being the operative word there as it is just as much a lottery, perhaps more so.

I'm sure we understand we need a solid league 2 squad for next season who weren't brought in to play out of position, have a terrible injury record, have relegation in their DNA and have the pace of a geriatric tortoise.

It's a big, big summer coming up assuming we stay up.

It’ll be even bigger if we don’t.

I think the notion of us looking further afield is an interesting one. Evidently, if you can identify some targets capable of playing at our standard that aren’t being tracked by other English clubs, it should in theory make attracting them that bit easier. Fair to say our record with foreign imports has been patchy to say the least this past 25 years. Off the top of my head:

Jason Batty
David Neilsen
Knut Anders Fostervold
Menno Willems
Zhang Enhua
JP Kalala
JP Akpa-Akpro
Mickael Buscher
Ludvig Ohman
Seb Ring
Moses Ogbu

I’ve probably missed a couple of names, but most of the above are pretty forgettable (Neilsen and Enhua the obvious exceptions). Of course, they each arrived under different circumstances and in very different eras, but there’s a natural degradation of available data on players the more obscure into Europe and beyond you go, which makes accurate recruitment a lot more challenging.

I remain to be convinced we can make this kind of thing work, but time may tell.

If they are any good and of international standard, we need to have a few internationals in the squad otherwise we could be without them for 6-8 games over the course of the season which could be have a huge bearing on our final position.

I'm not convinced we'll be getting internationals in.  I imagine it will be more the unearthed diamonds from the Belgium 3rd tier or something like that.

In the interview Barnsley were cited as the only lower league club who have dabbled consistently in the overseas market, with a bit of a nod towards Lincoln and Fleetwood for their Irish signings.  There's part of me that thinks that's a huge area of potential, but then the cynic in me thinks that might be the case for a reason.   I think probably there is scope to get in there and find a few rough diamonds and smooth them off.

I know it didn't go to plan but it's another example of Michael Jolley trying something that could have been really impressive.  Ohman, Ring and Ogbu all coming over from the Swedish leagues was a bit of a throw back to Lennie Lawrence's time.  Ring never looked up to the hustle and bustle of League Two but Ohman in particular started incredibly well whereas Ogbu had moments where he was just unplayable (Mansfield away very early in the Holloway era, might have been his first game actually and Exeter away).  

I think the thing is that we've got to be prepared, should we go down this path, to accept the wins and losses.  Just like in the domestic market, there's good bits of business and bad bits.  It just feels the scrutiny and expectation is more for foreign signings.  Not all will work, but it doesn't that some won't.   I'm really eager to see what level of advantage we get from Twenty First Group in this link-up.  Another really interesting point was the two lads from the podcast (Ali and George) are linking up with TFG in a partnership focused on the EFL.  It was loosely described as a bit of blend between the data from TFG and more of that knowledge/feel perspective from the 'experts' in the EFL.  A very, very clear message that football isn't just played on a spreadsheet.  

Quoted from Poojah

It’ll be even bigger if we don’t.

I think the notion of us looking further afield is an interesting one. Evidently, if you can identify some targets capable of playing at our standard that aren’t being tracked by other English clubs, it should in theory make attracting them that bit easier. Fair to say our record with foreign imports has been patchy to say the least this past 25 years. Off the top of my head:

Jason Batty
David Neilsen
Knut Anders Fostervold
Menno Willems
Zhang Enhua
JP Kalala
JP Akpa-Akpro
Mickael Buscher
Ludvig Ohman
Seb Ring
Moses Ogbu

I’ve probably missed a couple of names, but most of the above are pretty forgettable (Neilsen and Enhua the obvious exceptions). Of course, they each arrived under different circumstances and in very different eras, but there’s a natural degradation of available data on players the more obscure into Europe and beyond you go, which makes accurate recruitment a lot more challenging.

I remain to be convinced we can make this kind of thing work, but time may tell.

Put some respect on Hamish Watson's name!

Knut Anders Fostervold did go onto have some serious success after his spell with us.








It was as a professional cyclist mind.

Quoted from Croxton

Good post. As far as pace goes, I can't think of the last genuine quickie we signed in the last five years. Plenty arrive with the 'pacy' label attached, e.g Obikwu,  but it is soon apparent that the opposite is true.
.

Tom Bolarinwa?

Owura Edwards was pretty quick but I wouldn't say lightning fast.  I didn't realise he joined Colchester on a permanent deal last summer. Looks to have had a few serious injury issues and only just getting back into the run of it, just in time to play us...

We had an Italian bloke who did alright...

Quoted from diehardmariner

I'm not convinced we'll be getting internationals in.  I imagine it will be more the unearthed diamonds from the Belgium 3rd tier or something like that.

In the interview Barnsley were cited as the only lower league club who have dabbled consistently in the overseas market, with a bit of a nod towards Lincoln and Fleetwood for their Irish signings.  There's part of me that thinks that's a huge area of potential, but then the cynic in me thinks that might be the case for a reason.   I think probably there is scope to get in there and find a few rough diamonds and smooth them off.

I know it didn't go to plan but it's another example of Michael Jolley trying something that could have been really impressive.  Ohman, Ring and Ogbu all coming over from the Swedish leagues was a bit of a throw back to Lennie Lawrence's time.  Ring never looked up to the hustle and bustle of League Two but Ohman in particular started incredibly well whereas Ogbu had moments where he was just unplayable (Mansfield away very early in the Holloway era, might have been his first game actually and Exeter away).  

I think the thing is that we've got to be prepared, should we go down this path, to accept the wins and losses.  Just like in the domestic market, there's good bits of business and bad bits.  It just feels the scrutiny and expectation is more for foreign signings.  Not all will work, but it doesn't that some won't.   I'm really eager to see what level of advantage we get from Twenty First Group in this link-up.  Another really interesting point was the two lads from the podcast (Ali and George) are linking up with TFG in a partnership focused on the EFL.  It was loosely described as a bit of blend between the data from TFG and more of that knowledge/feel perspective from the 'experts' in the EFL.  A very, very clear message that football isn't just played on a spreadsheet.  

I seem to remember that moses performance at Mansfield divided peoples opinion, although not Holloway's he got rid of him pretty soon after if I remember. In fact he divided opinion generally, definitely an unusual player.

More bloody foreigners, no thanks

Quoted from male private Nale

More bloody foreigners, no thanks

your user name sums you up                                            tw*t

Thomas Pinault. One minute a genius, the next 'The French man was a disgrace'

I guess it's the same risk reward model as taking and developing bigger club cast offs, some will work out like Conteh others like Hunt.

One thing to consider though is the levels within different systems and league 2 is probably on par with a fair few nations top leagues (bar the top few clubs).

Quoted from Swansea_Mariner

I guess it's the same risk reward model as taking and developing bigger club cast offs, some will work out like Conteh others like Hunt.

One thing to consider though is the levels within different systems and league 2 is probably on par with a fair few nations top leagues (bar the top few clubs).

I think the easiest way to judge the quality of a league and likelihood of players being good enough is to see what level that league signs English players from. The SPL, for example, seems to sign a fair few players from the National League.

Quoted from Poojah

It’ll be even bigger if we don’t.

I think the notion of us looking further afield is an interesting one. Evidently, if you can identify some targets capable of playing at our standard that aren’t being tracked by other English clubs, it should in theory make attracting them that bit easier. Fair to say our record with foreign imports has been patchy to say the least this past 25 years. Off the top of my head:

Jason Batty
David Neilsen
Knut Anders Fostervold
Menno Willems
Zhang Enhua
JP Kalala
JP Akpa-Akpro
Mickael Buscher
Ludvig Ohman
Seb Ring
Moses Ogbu

I’ve probably missed a couple of names, but most of the above are pretty forgettable (Neilsen and Enhua the obvious exceptions). Of course, they each arrived under different circumstances and in very different eras, but there’s a natural degradation of available data on players the more obscure into Europe and beyond you go, which makes accurate recruitment a lot more challenging.

I remain to be convinced we can make this kind of thing work, but time may tell.

No Ivano, i know you said some might be missing but Ivano, c'mon Poojah have a word   

Most of those obviously not all were able to come and work in the uk on the  back of EU passports. Presumably that is no longer the case?

In one of his recent pressers DA did mention something about looking further afield for players to come in. Suggested this is going on now. I think we will see more of an impact with him in charge linked to the recruitment dude than we did under Hurst given the latters preference of working with someone beforehand.

Quoted from Meza

No Ivano, i know you said some might be missing but Ivano, c'mon Poojah have a word   

I thought crocombe would be an obvious one too

I'm presuming Poojah was referring to direct foreign imports, i.e. those who we've brought to the English game. As opposed to the Pinault and Crocombe types who already had a foot in the English game.

Ivano? 28 years ago this autumn. Frightening!

Quoted from HerveJosse

Most of those obviously not all were able to come and work in the uk on the  back of EU passports. Presumably that is no longer the case?

In theory it's easier and more relaxed to sign foreign players now.
https://www.walkermorris.co.uk.....and-just-got-easier/

Quoted from Meza

No Ivano, i know you said some might be missing but Ivano, c'mon Poojah have a word   

To be fair, the qualifier was “past 25 years”. I’m sure it makes us all feel old to point out that it’s almost 30 years since we signed Bonetti.

That aside, the point I was making was about signing foreign players from obscurity. Ivano wasn’t obscure; he’d started in the European Cup final three years earlier.

Quoted from Poojah

To be fair, the qualifier was “past 25 years”. I’m sure it makes us all feel old to point out that it’s almost 30 years since we signed Bonetti.

That aside, the point I was making was about signing foreign players from obscurity. Ivano wasn’t obscure; he’d started in the European Cup final three years earlier.

I know mate was just having a bit of fun.  To be fair i'd probably forget most of the foreign imports lol i.e.Chima Okorie.

Honourable mention for Bilel Mohsni?

Hamish Watson is one that's still going , playing in Australian /New Zealand minor leagues . Not a great example of a good foreign import though .

Moses Ogbu looks to have had a decent career since leaving us, top scorer in Chinese League 1 last year and previously played for one of the top teams in South Korea.

He looked absolutely useless whenever I saw him .

But he obviously has a world class level agent.

Quoted from diehardmariner

I'm presuming Poojah was referring to direct foreign imports, i.e. those who we've brought to the English game. As opposed to the Pinault and Crocombe types who already had a foot in the English game.

Ivano? 28 years ago this autumn. Frightening!

Yep - Crocombe was born i NZ but moved to England at a very young age - came through the youth systems at MK dons and Oxford United, so not exactly the same as the type of player we're talking about.

We’d be able to sign 2 players from foreign shores without work permits under the new Elite Significant Contribution (ESC) rules that started at the beginning of this season. We could technically sign a couple of South American 18 year olds with very little red tape.