Staying up

I very rarely comment about tactics or performances but one thing puzzles me.  Why do we bring everyone back for corners and free kicks, seems to me that it gives the opposition an advantage!

Well Slade got loads of stick for doing it, his laptop showed that the opposition scored less when you did, so I would hope the Jolley gets the same stick. We must be fair and impartial at all times!!

The traditional or intuitive ways of doing things aren't always the most effective when you look at the underlying data. I can't pretend to have done so, but MJ has an analytical mind and I am sure he will be familiar with them.

Quoted from 123614

I very rarely comment about tactics or performances but one thing puzzles me.  Why do we bring everyone back for corners and free kicks, seems to me that it gives the opposition an advantage!

In MJ we trust. Why would you not have a numerical advantage when defending a set piece in a league where a lot of goals are scored from those situations?

You could say leave a man up to hit them on the break but he’d just get fouled anyway if he spealt any danger.

Why do some teams NOT have a player on the post at corners ?

The data may show that teams concede less from corners and set pieces when all players are back. But I would argue that would only be the 'first phase' of the play. The problem is when the ball is cleared, it gets picked up by the opposition and you are immediately defending again.

Then there is the argument that if one player is left on the half way line, the opposition must (at least should) have two men marking him meaning the can commit two less players to attacking positions.

Thread title "Staying up"

Don't know how keeping men back at corners will determine that ???

Quoted from 75

The data may show that teams concede less from corners and set pieces when all players are back. But I would argue that would only be the 'first phase' of the play. The problem is when the ball is cleared, it gets picked up by the opposition and you are immediately defending again.

Then there is the argument that if one player is left on the half way line, the opposition must (at least should) have two men marking him meaning the can commit two less players to attacking positions.

As someone who endured R S’s presentation, it did cover the second phase as well. What it didn’t cover is how many goals the defending side scores in phases 1 and 2 when you don’t have everyone back and then break from a clearance  !!

This isn't as big a deal as some would think. Watch a PL game on Tele, most teams defend with everyone back.

I wouldn't even say you need a player on the half way line. Just one standing between the area and half way line is close enough to have a chance to pick up the ball or at least put pressure on defenders who are collecting it from a clearance. Use either your weakest in the air or quickest and you'll not miss a lot from them not being in the area. If you can't defend a set piece with ten men in the box, you're doing something wrong!

I think the Vicar has it right. When do the stattos stop counting what counts as a goal from a corner. The important stat in this respect is how teams leaving a man up do in the whole match.

Quoted from Tommy

This isn't as big a deal as some would think. Watch a PL game on Tele, most teams defend with everyone back.

Yes but have you seen the speed they then break at - straight at the oppositions throat within seconds. League 2 players cannot be expected to play like that hence it would seem more practical to leave one or more players up for an opposition corner to get on the end of the usual long clearance.

Don't get me wrong I would be delighted if we could break from an opposition corner at speed and be a goal threat from that, but it is a lot to ask.

Didn’t work against FGR did it ?! Doidge had a free header with everyone back

Watch the World Cup.so many teams did the same thing and had everyone back. There is a contrarian tactic which I've seen a few teams employ, especially when they don't have a great deal of height and that is to turn the situation on its head and leave 3 players up front which gives the attacking team a real problem and also leaves more space in the area for the keeper to dominate
I know it's level 8 but Ben Williams at Aylesbury United does it all the time and often the opposition are scratching their heads as to how to counter it.they have their corner kick routines and suddenly their plans are null and void

Quoted from forza ivano

Watch the World Cup.so many teams did the same thing and had everyone back. There is a contrarian tactic which I've seen a few teams employ, especially when they don't have a great deal of height and that is to turn the situation on its head and leave 3 players up front which gives the attacking team a real problem and also leaves more space in the area for the keeper to dominate
I know it's level 8 but Ben Williams at Aylesbury United does it all the time and often the opposition are scratching their heads as to how to counter it.they have their corner kick routines and suddenly their plans are null and void

How does that work out for the Geese Ducks?

Honestly I don't mind so much because I do the same thing on Football Manager and it works for me.

Really not a fan of it, be it for Town, in the Premier League, international level, any level for that matter.

I agree with the comments that just by leaving one up you at the very worst drag another attacking player back towards their own goal.  It just invites pressure for me, you clear the ball and it comes back.  Surely the objective is to clear the corner and reset your positions as soon as possible?  By having everyone back the only chance of this happening straight away is if the 'keeper collects it or a foul is committed by the attacking side.  

It is interesting that Slade got absolute pelters for this yet Jolley has so far emerged pretty much unscathed by it.  Obviously Jolley has impressed on a much more overall basis than Slade.  

There will be a perfectly sound reason for it, despite what we may think. Why else would most managers adopt this tactic? Their very livelihoods depend on results, so i don't imagine they are doing it just to exasperate football fans.

Quoted from diehardmariner

I agree with the comments that just by leaving one up you at the very worst drag another attacking player back towards their own goal.  

The point is you pack the box so noone has space for a free run or header. Easiest way to defend. Your point becomes a negative, leaving 1 man up removes at least 2 from the box making more space.

Not saying I'm a fan, but chances of conceding with more space are probably higher than chance of scoring on a break.

I can't remember who but one of the teams in The World Cup left two men on the half-way line when defending corners. It bamboozled the opposition who had to leave three men, at least, back to cover them.
It seems most teams now bring everybody back but, like not having a man on each post to defend corners, it doesn't seem right. But I'm not a football coach, just a fan.

Interesting debate with both sides of the coin being favoured.  I wonder if MJ would like to comment on this subject?

I like leaving 1 man up, who should be an out ball and then 2 men on the posts. I don’t know why managers differ from this strategy. How mang times do you see keepers making saves and there being a simple tap in because there’s nobody on the line or posts to clear it? Leaving one man up can relieve pressure as everyone back just means the ball will come straight back of it’s cleared and you end up pinning yourself in your own box.

If people want a man on each post, that only increases the chances that you'll need to bring everybody back. As that's 2 players you don't have in the box to do any marking/zonal jobs.

I don't particularly think MJ should need to come out and explain his plan for defending set plays. Where do you draw the line with that? Should he need to come out and justify every small tactical decision? Not for me. It's just his way of doing it. It's not the same as everyone else's ideal, just like his choice of line-up every week won't be the same as what some people would've chosen. But that's football.

Well if I was a referee no one would score from a corner,

I would either give a free kick for the forward holding,

Or a pen for the defender holding.

Scoring from the pen does not count as scoring from the corner.

Quoted from drbell

The point is you pack the box so noone has space for a free run or header. Easiest way to defend. Your point becomes a negative, leaving 1 man up removes at least 2 from the box making more space.

Not saying I'm a fan, but chances of conceding with more space are probably higher than chance of scoring on a break.

Fair point.  But as an attacker, the more packed the box is the more options you have to cut your defender off, see his defensive run blocked etc.  Works both ways but if an attacker is blocked off, he doesn't score and the ball is cleared.  If a defender is blocked off, the attacker gets a free run on goal.   Also with more space in the box, the expectation should be that the 'keeper can come and collect the ball easier....unless the ball is delivered very deep, which should be easier to defend against.

It doesn't address the issue of the second passage of play either. That's what I dislike about it more than anything.

Quoted from diehardmariner

It doesn't address the issue of the second passage of play either. That's what I dislike about it more than anything.

And I'm with you, someone outside the box to pick up half clearances, and potentially someone further down the field with real pace.


The point made about men on the post kind of demonstrates another issue - its really easy to point out the times that a man on the post might have stopped a goal. However, its not easy to say when a goal was prevented by the presence of that same player in the box, defending, getting in the way etc. Modern managers (like MJ) will have their own stats and their own interpretation of those stats.

On a slightly different note, I thought that Southgate's use of Walker as a centre back, and as the last defender when England were attacking, was absolute genius. Out and out pace gets you out of so many problems, and kills any attempt to just break past the last man on the counter.

Quoted from drbell

On a slightly different note, I thought that Southgate's use of Walker as a centre back, and as the last defender when England were attacking, was absolute genius. Out and out pace gets you out of so many problems, and kills any attempt to just break past the last man on the counter.

Totally agree.  It was hardly something to boast about at the time but Peter Bore's pace got us out of numerous situations when he played right-back for us.  One of the reasons he stood out was because his pace allowed him to cover others when they didn't have the legs.    I always think you need at least one player with genuine pace in your back-line.

Quoted from Civvy at last

As someone who endured R S’s presentation, it did cover the second phase as well. What it didn’t cover is how many goals the defending side scores in phases 1 and 2 when you don’t have everyone back and then break from a clearance  !!

Yes you and I both pretty sure it will make our top 10 nights to remember