Ownership

Supporters control a club that is now playing just above Sunday League level ......very inspirational...

or did i miss something in my speed read through ?

Quoted from moosey_club

Supporters control a club that is now playing just above Sunday League level ......very inspirational...

or did i miss something in my speed read through ?

How about supporters control a club playing a division above us (potentially 2). To say nothing of the Bundesliga, Barca, Real Madrid.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

How about supporters control a club playing a division above us (potentially 2). To say nothing of the Bundesliga, Barca, Real Madrid.

mmm...great comparsons there..... European giants who have decades of success behind them and have  fanbases 10x our own attending every week plus many more globally....never mind they arent competing in a domestic League system completely dominated by the financial clout of the Premier League and multi billionaire foreign ownership.
Barca have so much of the TV revenue they will never be anything but succesful and largely dominant.

Fan ownership has yet to be proven as succesful and sustainable at a level we would all like to be playing at, either League 2 or League 1 level.

Great idea...not practicable in reality.

To be successful the fans need to be able to raise the cash to be able to buy out Fenty and buy enough shares. £2-3million should do it. Then you need to be able to cover the loans and have a working capital to run the club  every year.

Our trust cannot get fans to come to a meeting to discuss the running of the trust.

Daft idea.

Quoted from moosey_club

mmm...great comparsons there..... European giants who have decades of success behind them and have  fanbases 10x our own attending every week plus many more globally....never mind they arent competing in a domestic League system completely dominated by the financial clout of the Premier League and multi billionaire foreign ownership.
Barca have so much of the TV revenue they will never be anything but succesful and largely dominant.

Fan ownership has yet to be proven as succesful and sustainable at a level we would all like to be playing at, either League 2 or League 1 level.

Great idea...not practicable in reality.

Hellfire, Moosey - you can't say sensible things like that on here!

Fan ownership is the only way forward.

Quoted from Yoda

Fan ownership is the only way forward.

Why?

We have fan ownership now. One fan with a lot of money, or a lot of fans with a little money- which one is the better option? Suppose we'll never know unless it's tried. I think a mix of the two could be a way forward.

As we are all for Fenty moving on and the Allan's at 'Ull wanting to sell, how about they sell over there and take over here, I honestly think that would be "out of the frying pan and into the fire".

Quoted from moosey_club

mmm...great comparsons there..... European giants who have decades of success behind them and have  fanbases 10x our own attending every week plus many more globally....never mind they arent competing in a domestic League system completely dominated by the financial clout of the Premier League and multi billionaire foreign ownership.
Barca have so much of the TV revenue they will never be anything but succesful and largely dominant.

Fan ownership has yet to be proven as succesful and sustainable at a level we would all like to be playing at, either League 2 or League 1 level.

Great idea...not practicable in reality.

The point was you said it couldn't work. It clearly can.

And not all the Bundesliga clubs are exactly European giants.

And as for it not being proven at our level how about AFC Wimbledon. What a complete and utter failure eh?

Quoted from KingstonMariner

The point was you said it couldn't work. It clearly can.

And not all the Bundesliga clubs are exactly European giants.

And as for it not being proven at our level how about AFC Wimbledon. What a complete and utter failure eh?

stop digging Kingston or you will hit the Northern Line....going from Barcelona to AFC Wimbledon to demonstrate fan ownership can work.....
AFC Wimbledon & FC United probably the two most prominent examples in English pyramid were new clubs set up by fans, hence fan owned from initial set up and gradually built up from small fanbases and both progressing from way down the pyramid...thats not us.
again though with FC United they benefitted from being associated with arguably the largest club on the planet , although only a small percentage of protest supporters starting them up a small percentage of a global fanbase still equals a significant support to start from..
AFC Wimbledon also initially benefitted from an MK Dons backlash which the wider pyramid rallied behind.
we have a small active fanbase in reality and only a percentage of that wanting to own the club.
We could take over the club, that would require funds, to run a club takes skilled people in key positions does your model appoint these people or hope fans have thos skills and will give time for free ?  What position do you think we could sustain with fan money ?
Fans are fickle, fans see everything differently every game, trying to corral all that into a working model with an existing club set up is too much IMO.

[justify][/justify]r

Quoted from Pouton4ever

Why?

Not sure fan ownership is the way forward but the board loosely said  in charge at the moment is killing us from within imo

Quoted from moosey_club

stop digging Kingston or you will hit the Northern Line....going from Barcelona to AFC Wimbledon to demonstrate fan ownership can work.....
AFC Wimbledon & FC United probably the two most prominent examples in English pyramid were new clubs set up by fans, hence fan owned from initial set up and gradually built up from small fanbases and both progressing from way down the pyramid...thats not us.
again though with FC United they benefitted from being associated with arguably the largest club on the planet , although only a small percentage of protest supporters starting them up a small percentage of a global fanbase still equals a significant support to start from..
AFC Wimbledon also initially benefitted from an MK Dons backlash which the wider pyramid rallied behind.
we have a small active fanbase in reality and only a percentage of that wanting to own the club.
We could take over the club, that would require funds, to run a club takes skilled people in key positions does your model appoint these people or hope fans have thos skills and will give time for free ?  What position do you think we could sustain with fan money ?
Fans are fickle, fans see everything differently every game, trying to corral all that into a working model with an existing club set up is too much IMO.

Wycombe, Newport?

Quoted from ginnywings

Wycombe, Newport?

Wrexham, Chester, Stockport?

Quoted from moosey_club

stop digging Kingston or you will hit the Northern Line....going from Barcelona to AFC Wimbledon to demonstrate fan ownership can work.....
AFC Wimbledon & FC United probably the two most prominent examples in English pyramid were new clubs set up by fans, hence fan owned from initial set up and gradually built up from small fanbases and both progressing from way down the pyramid...thats not us.
again though with FC United they benefitted from being associated with arguably the largest club on the planet , although only a small percentage of protest supporters starting them up a small percentage of a global fanbase still equals a significant support to start from..
AFC Wimbledon also initially benefitted from an MK Dons backlash which the wider pyramid rallied behind.
we have a small active fanbase in reality and only a percentage of that wanting to own the club.
We could take over the club, that would require funds, to run a club takes skilled people in key positions does your model appoint these people or hope fans have thos skills and will give time for free ?  What position do you think we could sustain with fan money ?
Fans are fickle, fans see everything differently every game, trying to corral all that into a working model with an existing club set up is too much IMO.

You're one of those people who always try to find a reason for not doing something. Every little thing that you can dig up to make it look like "it doesn't apply to us. We can't do it." No wonder we're in the mire with attitudes like that.

Quoted from pen penfras

Wrexham, Chester, Stockport?

Get the point, but clubs are successful/unsuccessful with all forms of ownership. Not all fan run clubs are struggling and not all clubs with financial benefactors are doing well, as we know. It's about making the right decisions by whomever runs the club.

Wrexham and Stockport were taken over by fans after their previous owners had copulated them up, got them relegated and left them in debt. There wouldn't be a Stockport or Wrexham without fan ownership.

Could say the same for Portsmouth and Notts County too. Probably many others.

We could be like Wrexham and leave it until that point on the basis that Moosey is right that 'we can't do it'. Or we could try to prevent it and take action sooner.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

You're one of those people who always try to find a reason for not doing something. Every little thing that you can dig up to make it look like "it doesn't apply to us. We can't do it." No wonder we're in the mire with attitudes like that.

He is one of the health and safety lot KM,

No you can not do that ect ect,

Quoted from ginnywings

Get the point, but clubs are successful/unsuccessful with all forms of ownership. Not all fan run clubs are struggling and not all clubs with financial benefactors are doing well, as we know. It's about making the right decisions by whomever runs the club.

Absolutely. I'm not saying it's impossible. But the consensus seems to be that fan ownership will suddenly transform us into a successful club.

The budget wouldn't be larger. Who would underwrite the club's finances? I know we don't lose much at the moment, but day to day running we probably dip into the overdraft which wouldn't be there without somebody to underwrite it. Then you get in the press for not paying players, staff etc and can't be good for morale. If results don't go well, attendances will drop and the situation would be far worse.

The thing that stands out most to me is that the majority of people calling for fan ownership aren't willing to do a single thing towards making it happen, unless you count bleeting on about it on here. If you genuinely want to go in this direction then you need to take the bull by the horns and start putting something in action. It may not prove fruitful, but at least you tried to do what you believe in. It's always much easier to let somebody else do it, but that somebody doesn't appear to be forthcoming.

Wycombe are a great example the fans took over they had quite a lot it debt they are nearly debt free now and flourishing.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

You're one of those people who always try to find a reason for not doing something. Every little thing that you can dig up to make it look like "it doesn't apply to us. We can't do it." No wonder we're in the mire with attitudes like that.

maybe thats because i dont want to do it  

The thing is, if hypothetically we were running away with the league but still had issues like the forum, bra gate etc would people still be calling for a change of ownership, I think the majority of the un rest comes from having a poor football season, so that only magnifies the off field incidents.

This always comes back to one thing: what is success?

Given what many of the fan-owned clubs went through - nearly going to the wall thanks to some kamikaze ownership from eccentric rich people - simply existing is success in their eyes.

We all want to play as high as we possibly can in the football league but if we get relegated and Fenty’s still in charge next season I’d fear for our long term existence.

A part of me would be quite happy to be fan owned and playing in League 2 while slowly building for a better (and more secure) future.

But not everyone has the patience for that.

Quoted from pen penfras

Absolutely. I'm not saying it's impossible. But the consensus seems to be that fan ownership will suddenly transform us into a successful club.

The budget wouldn't be larger. Who would underwrite the club's finances? I know we don't lose much at the moment, but day to day running we probably dip into the overdraft which wouldn't be there without somebody to underwrite it. Then you get in the press for not paying players, staff etc and can't be good for morale. If results don't go well, attendances will drop and the situation would be far worse.

The thing that stands out most to me is that the majority of people calling for fan ownership aren't willing to do a single thing towards making it happen, unless you count bleeting on about it on here. If you genuinely want to go in this direction then you need to take the bull by the horns and start putting something in action. It may not prove fruitful, but at least you tried to do what you believe in. It's always much easier to let somebody else do it, but that somebody doesn't appear to be forthcoming.

I take your point about taking the bull by the horns. I find it sad and disappointing that more aren't up for it. Not really viable for someone like me to do due to distance and work commitments.

But no body is saying we would be necessarily  more successful on the pitch. I think that would come over time. i think the club would be run more with the supporters, its lifeblood, in mind, and that would make a more stable, longterm fanbase, greater sense of ownership and patience. I think the support would be more tolerant of things when results weren't going our way.

As for 'bleating' on social media, well its partly about seeing what the appetite is and who can be persuaded. Same as people 'bleating' about any issue they feel strongly about.

Quoted from moosey_club

maybe thats because i dont want to do it  

That's fair enough if you don't, but you seem to look for any little thing to say 'we're different, we couldn't do it here'. It comes across as the negative 'little Grimsby' attitude that keeps people in their place.

For me it isn't a straight choice between what we have now and outright fan ownership through the Trust or another properly constituted body.

There are alternatives provided JF genuinely has had enough and is willing to talk about stepping down with purchase of his shares to be structured.

One thing is for sure as far as I can see and that is continuing as we are now will result in a significant drop in income for next season as there are so many people who will not renew season tickets.

Change in some form or other is vital

Quoted from pen penfras

Absolutely. I'm not saying it's impossible. But the consensus seems to be that fan ownership will suddenly transform us into a successful club.

The budget wouldn't be larger. Who would underwrite the club's finances? I know we don't lose much at the moment, but day to day running we probably dip into the overdraft which wouldn't be there without somebody to underwrite it. Then you get in the press for not paying players, staff etc and can't be good for morale. If results don't go well, attendances will drop and the situation would be far worse.

The thing that stands out most to me is that the majority of people calling for fan ownership aren't willing to do a single thing towards making it happen, unless you count bleeting on about it on here. If you genuinely want to go in this direction then you need to take the bull by the horns and start putting something in action. It may not prove fruitful, but at least you tried to do what you believe in. It's always much easier to let somebody else do it, but that somebody doesn't appear to be forthcoming.

Probably because there is a big obstacle in the way of it happening. Genuinely, there are loads of people who would consider doing something constructive at GTFC if they could make a difference - at the moment, fans get criticised at every turn, how can you expect them to be constructive?

Quoted from KingstonMariner

That's fair enough if you don't, but you seem to look for any little thing to say 'we're different, we couldn't do it here'. It comes across as the negative 'little Grimsby' attitude that keeps people in their place.

yes..i am a pessimistic tw@t regards GTFC   ......

Currently if you take what many would regard as a potential lead in fan ownership ...the trust .... an organisation formed, made up and run by supporters... they appear to be at odds internally with the limited power/control they have to date and dont seem to be clear on their direction...that is why i have doubts about it working for the entire control of the club here.

From my viewpoint, i am an advocate of public ownership, and not just of football clubs. I have always felt this way and it isn't something that i have just come around to thinking because of the struggles of the team. Neither do i think that it would guarantee success any more than what we have now, but it would feel more like our club than it does now and i think more clubs should have more fan involvement.

As for bleating on here and doing nothing about it. I simply don't have the knowledge required, but i have said more than once that i would be willing to put money into any scheme and i would be more than willing to lend what skills i have for free in ground maintenance and things of that nature. My brother would too.

I know JF thinks differently and that fan ownership is a pipe dream in his view, because i asked him. He also thinks fundamentally differently to me and his politics are a polar opposite to mine. He believes business and the free market is the way things should be run, and that is his right. It has to be said that he has kept the club in a mostly healthy financial state and is to be commended for doing so, but the match day experience is poor, and it has been for a long time now. Something needs to give somewhere.

Fenty wants out as he’s stated and some rumours flying about that it could be sooner than we think , I can’t wait to hear his exit strategy . Wonder how many times football fortune will get mentioned 🤔

Quoted from pen penfras

Absolutely. I'm not saying it's impossible. But the consensus seems to be that fan ownership will suddenly transform us into a successful club.

The budget wouldn't be larger. Who would underwrite the club's finances? I know we don't lose much at the moment, but day to day running we probably dip into the overdraft which wouldn't be there without somebody to underwrite it. Then you get in the press for not paying players, staff etc and can't be good for morale. If results don't go well, attendances will drop and the situation would be far worse.

The thing that stands out most to me is that the majority of people calling for fan ownership aren't willing to do a single thing towards making it happen, unless you count bleeting on about it on here. If you genuinely want to go in this direction then you need to take the bull by the horns and start putting something in action. It may not prove fruitful, but at least you tried to do what you believe in. It's always much easier to let somebody else do it, but that somebody doesn't appear to be forthcoming.

The reason we operate where we may require dipping into an overdraft/need to utilise a benefactor is because how badly run we are.  That's the issue.  The issue isn't if the next owner is a fan group or an individual, the issue is that they have to be effective and make the club so.  Basic and sensible budget control would see GTFC operate at a tidy surplus each year, we quite clearly don't have that at present.

Quoted from diehardmariner

The reason we operate where we may require dipping into an overdraft/need to utilise a benefactor is because how badly run we are.  That's the issue.  The issue isn't if the next owner is a fan group or an individual, the issue is that they have to be effective and make the club so.  Basic and sensible budget control would see GTFC operate at a tidy surplus each year, we quite clearly don't have that at present.

All of this.

Just imagine how many more would come through the turnstiles if the 'product' was better, the matchday experience was better and the fans actually believed that the club value their support.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

I take your point about taking the bull by the horns. I find it sad and disappointing that more aren't up for it. Not really viable for someone like me to do due to distance and work commitments.

But no body is saying we would be necessarily  more successful on the pitch. I think that would come over time. i think the club would be run more with the supporters, its lifeblood, in mind, and that would make a more stable, longterm fanbase, greater sense of ownership and patience. I think the support would be more tolerant of things when results weren't going our way.

As for 'bleating' on social media, well its partly about seeing what the appetite is and who can be persuaded. Same as people 'bleating' about any issue they feel strongly about.

A lot are up for it but not being engaged and told to remain patient.If things don`t move quickly off the field we will be kicking off once again behind the 8 ball.

Quoted from moosey_club

yes..i am a pessimistic tw@t regards GTFC   ......

Currently if you take what many would regard as a potential lead in fan ownership ...the trust .... an organisation formed, made up and run by supporters... they appear to be at odds internally with the limited power/control they have to date and dont seem to be clear on their direction...that is why i have doubts about it working for the entire control of the club here.

Sorry for being a bit harsh. Was in a bad mood Sunday.

The Trust from its inception, to my mind, has always been too unambitious/conservative in respect of fan ownership*. The current board don't seem to want it and that's their prerogative, and until the membership tell them they want it.

* set out in the aims of the organisation the object is to improve supporter engagement or something like that, which could be interpreted in a number of ways.

Quoted from 1mickylyons

A lot are up for it but not being engaged and told to remain patient.If things don`t move quickly off the field we will be kicking off once again behind the 8 ball.

When's the next Trust meeting open for members?