Government cutbacks

With the economy still shrinking, perhaps it is time for the government to face up to the reality that putting people out of work is not the best way to revive the economy. The cuts are a right wing wet dream, and now they want to murder employment rights. How much longer can this go on for?

Will only get worse after the Olympics is out the way. The girl privates haven't wanted to rock the boat too much in the last 6 months but still show their arrogance and un caring side every now and then. Once the Olympics is done and dusted it could be bad times for many.

For me we need to use bad times like this to invest massively in infrastructure and green energy projects so we aren't totally reliant on other countries for power in the future. I am a big believer in making sure your construction workers and tradesman have money in their back pocket. As they spend it and get it flowing around the economy.

This is the scariest shit I've known in my 40-plus years on this planet. We are facing into the abyss and 99.9% of people don't even realise it.

It is academic who is in charge. It is academic whether we borrow more or cut more. The euro is fucked; you can only pass the buck for so long. First it was Greece, then it was Ireland, the it was Portugal, then back to Greece. And then Greece again. And again. Then the Spanish banks. Then maybe Spain itself. And then back to Greece. Italy next, possibly France. Even Germany is at risk because of what is expected of them.

You can only bail something out so many times then the bailer runs out of cash, be it Germany, the EU, the ECB or the IMF. The euro is doomed; it is not a question of 'if' but 'when?'. Banks will collapse, governments will not be able to bail them out. Governments will collapse, society will follow. There will be civil war in Greece inside of two years.

The great depression will look like a wet fart compared to this. The knock-on effect will be catastrophic; the UK will face the biggest drop in living standards ever, for western Europe as a whole has lived beyond its' means for decades. It will take a generation for us to recover. Mass unemployment will haunt us for years. Our salad days are well and truly over.

You may mock but we have seen nothing yet.

Quoted from kingofthekippers

This is the scariest shit I've known in my 40-plus years on this planet. We are facing into the abyss and 99.9% of people don't even realise it.

It is academic who is in charge. It is academic whether we borrow more or cut more. The euro is fucked; you can only pass the buck for so long. First it was Greece, then it was Ireland, the it was Portugal, then back to Greece. And then Greece again. And again. Then the Spanish banks. Then maybe Spain itself. And then back to Greece. Italy next, possibly France. Even Germany is at risk because of what is expected of them.

You can only bail something out so many times then the bailer runs out of cash, be it Germany, the EU, the ECB or the IMF. The euro is doomed; it is not a question of 'if' but 'when?'. Banks will collapse, governments will not be able to bail them out. Governments will collapse, society will follow. There will be civil war in Greece inside of two years.

The great depression will look like a wet fart compared to this. The knock-on effect will be catastrophic; the UK will face the biggest drop in living standards ever, for western Europe as a whole has lived beyond its' means for decades. It will take a generation for us to recover. Mass unemployment will haunt us for years. Our salad days are well and truly over.

You may mock but we have seen nothing yet.

Well that was a cheerful bed time read .

Quoted from kingofthekippers

This is the scariest shit I've known in my 40-plus years on this planet. We are facing into the abyss and 99.9% of people don't even realise it.

It is academic who is in charge. It is academic whether we borrow more or cut more. The euro is fucked; you can only pass the buck for so long. First it was Greece, then it was Ireland, the it was Portugal, then back to Greece. And then Greece again. And again. Then the Spanish banks. Then maybe Spain itself. And then back to Greece. Italy next, possibly France. Even Germany is at risk because of what is expected of them.

You can only bail something out so many times then the bailer runs out of cash, be it Germany, the EU, the ECB or the IMF. The euro is doomed; it is not a question of 'if' but 'when?'. Banks will collapse, governments will not be able to bail them out. Governments will collapse, society will follow. There will be civil war in Greece inside of two years.

The great depression will look like a wet fart compared to this. The knock-on effect will be catastrophic; the UK will face the biggest drop in living standards ever, for western Europe as a whole has lived beyond its' means for decades. It will take a generation for us to recover. Mass unemployment will haunt us for years. Our salad days are well and truly over.

You may mock but we have seen nothing yet.

[IMG]http://data7.blog.de/media/046/6022046_d8198afadc_m.jpeg[/IMG]

But in all seriousness, whilst I dont think it will go as far as civil war the future looks bleak.

Quoted from kingofthekippers

This is the scariest shit I've known in my 40-plus years on this planet. We are facing into the abyss and 99.9% of people don't even realise it.

It is academic who is in charge. It is academic whether we borrow more or cut more. The euro is fucked; you can only pass the buck for so long. First it was Greece, then it was Ireland, the it was Portugal, then back to Greece. And then Greece again. And again. Then the Spanish banks. Then maybe Spain itself. And then back to Greece. Italy next, possibly France. Even Germany is at risk because of what is expected of them.

You can only bail something out so many times then the bailer runs out of cash, be it Germany, the EU, the ECB or the IMF. The euro is doomed; it is not a question of 'if' but 'when?'. Banks will collapse, governments will not be able to bail them out. Governments will collapse, society will follow. There will be civil war in Greece inside of two years.

The great depression will look like a wet fart compared to this. The knock-on effect will be catastrophic; the UK will face the biggest drop in living standards ever, for western Europe as a whole has lived beyond its' means for decades. It will take a generation for us to recover. Mass unemployment will haunt us for years. Our salad days are well and truly over.

You may mock but we have seen nothing yet.

Whs
We have talked about this at work for months, scary stuff. I think its time to look after number 1 plus all this shite about paying us the tradesmen cash in had is morally wrong, fuk them I say customers can't afford to pay top wack.

Quoted from Super Clive

Whs
We have talked about this at work for months, scary stuff. I think its time to look after number 1 plus all this shite about paying us the tradesmen cash in had is morally wrong, fuk them I say customers can't afford to pay top wack.

When has it not been time for that Clive? That's one of the biggest problems with the way society has become. We're not meant to have this attitude, we're meant to be gregarious, living in small, co-dependant and tight communities, not wading through crowds of thousands on a daily basis as though none of them were actually even there. I think what we need more than anything is to start to pull together again, not cut ourselves further adrift.

If what KotK says turns out to be true, and capitalism has finally started to collapse under the weight of its own greed, then I think we need to start seriously re-thinking the way we're going.

Quoted from upthestripes

If what KotK says turns out to be true, and capitalism has finally started to collapse under the weight of its own greed, then I think we need to start seriously re-thinking the way we're going.

Lives are being destroyed in the current economic situation, but I haven't seen any evidence of capitalism starting to collapse under the weight of its own greed just yet.

[url]http://www.metro.co.uk/news/897604-what-recession-britains-richest-get-richer-still-to-share-record-414bn[/url]

Somebody contact the government, i think that we are recovering but it is a slow recovery maybe 7 years until we have recovered properly

Unbridled capitalism was always doomed when we are limited to a finite set of resources. All the talk of "growth" is an absurdity when we in this country already have a living standard hundreds of times what the poorest nations on earth have to put up with. We're due for a massive "correction" and a big fall in living standards seems inevitable to me over the years to come.

Fact is, although a lot of people were living beyond their means, a good number weren't. It was the dogma and ideology of the free marketeers, led by Herr Gruppenfuhrer Thatcher - if you want something have it, regardless of the cost, because a feel good factor gets governments re-elected. Thatcher wasn't daft though, her planning of all this came with a very dark side - the slavery of the working classes. Before everyone starts spluttering into their cornflakes though, let me elaborate.

1979 and Superbitch comes to power. Because of the problems of the last Labour Government in trying to get a social contract that agreed a prices and incomes policy, it was easy for Thatcher to take on who she perceived to be the enemies of the State, the Trade Unions. She did it with relish. She also embarked on a programme of mass privatisation, conning people into believing that the greater choice they had the better it would be. We now know that to be an appalling lie - look no further than today's obscene Gas profits - but people got sucked in. She created mass, popular capitalism whereby people could buy into these privatisations. It was win, win, win.......until the Fat Lady started singing for her profits.

She then started to sell off council houses to make a "home owning democracy" All it did was to fuel a non sustainable housing boom (house prices have crashed 3 times since it happened) yet people still bought into it, regardless of the fact that future generations would have little or no social housing to look forward to. So what happens? Yet more housing boom as young people try and get a foothold on the ever increasing mortgage ladder. No longer though could they afford to do it on a single person's wage as I did when I bought my first house in 1977. My Building Society manager met with me and my wife, took my financial details only as we couldn't guarantee that we wouldn't start a family. We were then offered a 90% mortgage on my basic earnings only. Cut forward 20 years later and they're offering 6 times each partner's wages to get a 100% mortgage! The world had gone mad, but with it, which was always part of the Tory thinking, that if people were saddled with lots of invisible debt then they would be less likely to take industrial action.

Employment laws, the most draconian in the whole of western Europe were brought into being and working class folk were shackled. It's an inescapable fact, that high levels of Trade Union membership correlate with a much healthier economy than those where there's low levels. We are now being governed by an ideologially driven upper class government whose only aim is to look after their own at the expense of everyone else, despite Dave's protestations today that he's going to roll his shirt sleeves up and work hard to get us all back on an even keel. Total and utter garbage, and most people are slowly coming around to understanding that now. For those who think the current situation is bad, the political consensus is that only 12% of the agreed cuts have come into being at the moment. Now that really is scary shite. Think not only of the problem of civil disobedience on the streets of Greece, it's much closer to home than that.

Why not just tell it as it was Jock with the old Grantham Turn Off  

Don't hold back on your appreciation of her "contribution to society"

Oh hang on....according to MHT there's no such thing as society

Quoted from marinette

Lives are being destroyed in the current economic situation, but I haven't seen any evidence of capitalism starting to collapse under the weight of its own greed just yet.

[url]http://www.metro.co.uk/news/897604-what-recession-britains-richest-get-richer-still-to-share-record-414bn[/url]

I can't begin to tell you how pleased I am for them Marinette. No, honestly...

Quoted from jock dock tower

Fact is, although a lot of people were living beyond their means, a good number weren't. It was the dogma and ideology of the free marketeers, led by Herr Gruppenfuhrer Thatcher - if you want something have it, regardless of the cost, because a feel good factor gets governments re-elected. Thatcher wasn't daft though, her planning of all this came with a very dark side - the slavery of the working classes. Before everyone starts spluttering into their cornflakes though, let me elaborate.

1979 and Superbitch comes to power. Because of the problems of the last Labour Government in trying to get a social contract that agreed a prices and incomes policy, it was easy for Thatcher to take on who she perceived to be the enemies of the State, the Trade Unions. She did it with relish. She also embarked on a programme of mass privatisation, conning people into believing that the greater choice they had the better it would be. We now know that to be an appalling lie - look no further than today's obscene Gas profits - but people got sucked in. She created mass, popular capitalism whereby people could buy into these privatisations. It was win, win, win.......until the Fat Lady started singing for her profits.

She then started to sell off council houses to make a "home owning democracy" All it did was to fuel a non sustainable housing boom (house prices have crashed 3 times since it happened) yet people still bought into it, regardless of the fact that future generations would have little or no social housing to look forward to. So what happens? Yet more housing boom as young people try and get a foothold on the ever increasing mortgage ladder. No longer though could they afford to do it on a single person's wage as I did when I bought my first house in 1977. My Building Society manager met with me and my wife, took my financial details only as we couldn't guarantee that we wouldn't start a family. We were then offered a 90% mortgage on my basic earnings only. Cut forward 20 years later and they're offering 6 times each partner's wages to get a 100% mortgage! The world had gone mad, but with it, which was always part of the Tory thinking, that if people were saddled with lots of invisible debt then they would be less likely to take industrial action.

Employment laws, the most draconian in the whole of western Europe were brought into being and working class folk were shackled. It's an inescapable fact, that high levels of Trade Union membership correlate with a much healthier economy than those where there's low levels. We are now being governed by an ideologially driven upper class government whose only aim is to look after their own at the expense of everyone else, despite Dave's protestations today that he's going to roll his shirt sleeves up and work hard to get us all back on an even keel. Total and utter garbage, and most people are slowly coming around to understanding that now. For those who think the current situation is bad, the political consensus is that only 12% of the agreed cuts have come into being at the moment. Now that really is scary shite. Think not only of the problem of civil disobedience on the streets of Greece, it's much closer to home than that.

What are you doing for the next few years, John? Don't fancy leading a civil revolution do you?  

Good i hope they start cutting back on the social security payments sick of driving home after a day at work on a nice day and seeing all the spongers sat in the front garden supping cans bought with my tax money and as for the so called public sector its about time they started to thin that lot out aswell.

Quoted from upthestripes

What are you doing for the next few years, John? Don't fancy leading a civil revolution do you?  

It's never been my way of doing things, prefer the democratic process myself despite it's many failings. What I was referring to though is the fact that everything seems to be bubbling up for yet more discontent, and understandably so given the nature of the government's policy of cut, cut, cut. There will undoubtedly come a time when a good number of people will say no, enough's enough, and take their protests out on to the street. It's inevitable, and with today's social media it's so much easier for groups to organise such action - as UK Uncut and Occupy have shown.

There is a mounting criticism of this government's very poor handling of the situation, and it's not just from the downtrodden. When the International Monetary Fund tells you you're steering the wrong path, and that is echoed by the Confederation of British Industry, the Churches, charitable groups who work with the less well off you can understand that there's definitely going to be a reaction. It's always been that way. I wouldn't be surprised to see something big kick off during the Olympics with so many police off their own duties covering up for G4S?

As I said, I much prefer the democratic way of doing things, but Civil disobedience is a very powerful weapon, that is also a very important part of our democracy - the right to protest against the government of the day (see the Poll Tax) Totally different to civil unrest though, that's when it has the capacity to get nasty.

Quoted from jock dock tower

It's never been my way of doing things, prefer the democratic process myself despite it's many failings. What I was referring to though is the fact that everything seems to be bubbling up for yet more discontent, and understandably so given the nature of the government's policy of cut, cut, cut. There will undoubtedly come a time when a good number of people will say no, enough's enough, and take their protests out on to the street. It's inevitable, and with today's social media it's so much easier for groups to organise such action - as UK Uncut and Occupy have shown.

There is a mounting criticism of this government's very poor handling of the situation, and it's not just from the downtrodden. When the International Monetary Fund tells you you're steering the wrong path, and that is echoed by the Confederation of British Industry, the Churches, charitable groups who work with the less well off you can understand that there's definitely going to be a reaction. It's always been that way. I wouldn't be surprised to see something big kick off during the Olympics with so many police off their own duties covering up for G4S?

As I said, I much prefer the democratic way of doing things, but Civil disobedience is a very powerful weapon, that is also a very important part of our democracy - the right to protest against the government of the day (see the Poll Tax) Totally different to civil unrest though, that's when it has the capacity to get nasty.

Very reasonable. And it never ever works anyway. Someone else takes leadership and the corruption starts all over again. I stand by my hatred of human beings, 1 for their maluability, and 2 for their corruptablity.

Quoted from north wall

Good i hope they start cutting back on the social security payments sick of driving home after a day at work on a nice day and seeing all the spongers sat in the front garden supping cans bought with my tax money and as for the so called public sector its about time they started to thin that lot out aswell.

It is very sad but there are people in this country who's lot is sitting around and drinking because they have no prospects. It is sort of a good job there are people willing to do this though as our economy isn't providing everyone with work and lots of those that do have work are so poorly paid it is hardly a living wage. 40 years ago the 'spongers' Of Grimsby would have had a fishing industry to provide work and a spin off economy but that has been taken away. Many other towns have lost their industries that provided people with work. Sure there are people who take the urine and abuse the system but for most people who are unemployed it is hardly one big party contrary to what the daily mail say.

Regarding the public sector. Good idea. Put even more people out of work and drinking Stella in their front garden. We might as well pay taxes to keep them in Stella rather than policing the streets, putting out fires, taking the bins away, educating our kids, nursing our ill, keeping the streets tidy etc etc etc etc etc... I dread to think what would happen to the local economy in a place like Grimsby should it take a huge hit in public sector workers.

Quoted from One Decent Lester

It is very sad but there are people in this country who's lot is sitting around and drinking because they have no prospects. It is sort of a good job there are people willing to do this though as our economy isn't providing everyone with work and lots of those that do have work are so poorly paid it is hardly a living wage. 40 years ago the 'spongers' Of Grimsby would have had a fishing industry to provide work and a spin off economy but that has been taken away. Many other towns have lost their industries that provided people with work. Sure there are people who take the urine and abuse the system but for most people who are unemployed it is hardly one big party contrary to what the daily mail say.

Regarding the public sector. Good idea. Put even more people out of work and drinking Stella in their front garden. We might as well pay taxes to keep them in Stella rather than policing the streets, putting out fires, taking the bins away, educating our kids, nursing our ill, keeping the streets tidy etc etc etc etc etc... I dread to think what would happen to the local economy in a place like Grimsby should it take a huge hit in public sector workers.

Very well said.

Quoted from marinette

Very well said.

Yes, good post ODL.

Jock don't forget all that north sea oil money that thach and her cronies wasted on the good life.

Quoted from One Decent Lester

It is very sad but there are people in this country who's lot is sitting around and drinking because they have no prospects. It is sort of a good job there are people willing to do this though as our economy isn't providing everyone with work and lots of those that do have work are so poorly paid it is hardly a living wage. 40 years ago the 'spongers' Of Grimsby would have had a fishing industry to provide work and a spin off economy but that has been taken away. Many other towns have lost their industries that provided people with work. Sure there are people who take the urine and abuse the system but for most people who are unemployed it is hardly one big party contrary to what the daily mail say.

Regarding the public sector. Good idea. Put even more people out of work and drinking Stella in their front garden. We might as well pay taxes to keep them in Stella rather than policing the streets, putting out fires, taking the bins away, educating our kids, nursing our ill, keeping the streets tidy etc etc etc etc etc... I dread to think what would happen to the local economy in a place like Grimsby should it take a huge hit in public sector workers.

that is the problem some people would rather sit at home claiming benefits than go out working i have heard it "i am not going to work for minimum wage am better of on the dole" which in my view is wrong. As  for low wages thats half the problem everyone wants more money then moan when prices go up to pay for it  and companies take work overseas if wages were low you used to work overtime to make it up now people will not work overtime because it might affect there tax credits
And as for Public sector yes the ones that actually do a necessary  jobs teachers nurses etc i am on about the career Civil Servants council employees  who contribute nothing to the economy  for the money they get except build speed humps and think of ways to make our lives more difficult re waste disposal  it would be cheaper to give them the dole than the 10s of thousands they get

Everything will be fine though because we've spent billions we don't have on a 2 week event that isn't even that interestIng...the Olympics will sort us out apparently...

Quoted from north wall

that is the problem some people would rather sit at home claiming benefits than go out working i have heard it "i am not going to work for minimum wage am better of on the dole" which in my view is wrong. As  for low wages thats half the problem everyone wants more money then moan when prices go up to pay for it  and companies take work overseas if wages were low you used to work overtime to make it up now people will not work overtime because it might affect there tax credits
And as for Public sector yes the ones that actually do a necessary  jobs teachers nurses etc i am on about the career Civil Servants council employees  who contribute nothing to the economy  for the money they get except build speed humps and think of ways to make our lives more difficult re waste disposal  it would be cheaper to give them the dole than the 10s of thousands they get

That's the problem with too many people nowadays, accepting their lot. You shouldn't need to work more because you're paid a pittance FFS! I think most companies nowadays don't pay premium time for overtime but expect you to do it for single time and be thankful for it. You'll find though, in places where they still have strong Trade Union representation that terms and conditions of employment are much better those that aren't. One day, people will wake up to what's going on around them. Do you think the employer who pays crap wages pay themselves the same level? Nurse......

Remember David cameron put up the minimum wage and nick clegg has ordered the electricity companies to write to their customers explaining their best deals and how to get them, also  the Olympics is helping the area

Quoted from north wall

that is the problem some people would rather sit at home claiming benefits than go out working i have heard it "i am not going to work for minimum wage am better of on the dole" which in my view is wrong. As  for low wages thats half the problem everyone wants more money then moan when prices go up to pay for it  and companies take work overseas if wages were low you used to work overtime to make it up now people will not work overtime because it might affect there tax credits
And as for Public sector yes the ones that actually do a necessary  jobs teachers nurses etc i am on about the career Civil Servants council employees  who contribute nothing to the economy  for the money they get except build speed humps and think of ways to make our lives more difficult re waste disposal  it would be cheaper to give them the dole than the 10s of thousands they get

The argument against overtime for me has always been that working almost .continuous overtime is actually contributing to the unemployment situation. If there is that much work then it should be given to someone who has none.
As a public sector worker I could have sworn that every time I bought something in a shop or engaged the services of a tradesman that I was contributing to the economy. Anyone who thinks that private sector businesses can survive without the support of public sector workers is living in La La Land.
I suggest you do your sums again regarding whether it would be cheaper to give public sector workers the dole. Less money in taxes coming in, the Government having to borrow more money to pay for the extra "dole", and increased admin. costs suggest you are wrong...

Quoted from aaron rattray

Remember David cameron put up the minimum wage and nick clegg has ordered the electricity companies to write to their customers explaining their best deals and how to get them, also  the Olympics is helping the area

I owe you an apology aaron. I once said you couldn't do satire; this has proved me wrong.

Either that or you are as stupid as people say.

Quoted from kingofthekippers

I owe you an apology aaron. I once said you couldn't do satire; this has proved me wrong.

Either that or you are as stupid as people say.

....I favour the latter!

Quoted from kingofthekippers

It is academic who is in charge. It is academic whether we borrow more or cut more. The euro is fucked; you can only pass the buck for so long. First it was Greece, then it was Ireland, the it was Portugal, then back to Greece. And then Greece again. And again. Then the Spanish banks. Then maybe Spain itself. And then back to Greece. Italy next, possibly France. Even Germany is at risk because of what is expected of them. The great depression will look like a wet fart compared to this. The knock-on effect will be catastrophic

I was accused of being a rascist eurosceptic a few years back when I suggested that taking the economies of countries like Greece and Spain, that aren't really first world countries (Thats not my claim,its the excuse both countries use to get extra funding from the EU) and are two of europes most unstable ecomonies, and tagging them on to leading economies like those of Germany and France. The theory was that the strength of Germany and France would actually lift the weaker markets, unfortunately thats not the way it works.

The great depression had people starving to death, and an inflation rate that meant the price of bread doubled from day to day, and people rushed to spend their wages the moment they got them because it was worthless the next day. Hyperinflation like that happens when governments keep printing new money. What happened in the thirties won't happen again, at least not this time round

Quoted from barralad

The argument against overtime for me has always been that working almost .continuous overtime is actually contributing to the unemployment situation. If there is that much work then it should be given to someone who has none.
As a public sector worker I could have sworn that every time I bought something in a shop or engaged the services of a tradesman that I was contributing to the economy. Anyone who thinks that private sector businesses can survive without the support of public sector workers is living in La La Land.
I suggest you do your sums again regarding whether it would be cheaper to give public sector workers the dole. Less money in taxes coming in, the Government having to borrow more money to pay for the extra "dole", and increased admin. costs suggest you are wrong...

Me do my sums how do Public Sector workers contribute tax revenue when their wages are taken fron the tax coffers and they return 30% of it

Quoted from north wall

Me do my sums how do Public Sector workers contribute tax revenue when their wages are taken fron the tax coffers and they return 30% of it

Who would empty your bins? who'd look after the elderly in their home? who'd try and ensure that children at risk aren't physically or sexually abused? who's repair the roads? who'd ensure the parks and open spaces are kept looking nice? who'd ensure you don't get small measures in the pubs? who's teach your kids? who'd look after you in hospital? who's try and ensure that crime doesn't run rampant? Come to think of it, who'd fight the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq? These and other professions are functions of the state. Do you think G4S could carry out something like the Falklands conflict?

Get a grip on reality FFS, you have to have provision that doesn't entail making a profit, it's called the STATE and it's supposed to be there to look after you from the cradle to the grave. The midwife who brought you into this world was also a state employee.

Next time someone tries to tell you that state equals bad, and private equals good, ask them about the bankers to start with, then G4S, then all the shysters who run the care homes for the elderly but are only interested in making profits rather than providing a decent level of care, then ask them about all the richest in the country who have billions of pounds stashed away offshore that could wipe out the total debt in this country, and pay for a standard of care and state provision that would be second to none. But no, you're happy to make cheap jibes about other workers because it's easy to do so. Do you read the Daily Mail or Express perhaps?

Yes the essential services are required and do a marvellous job and derserve more money  its all the pen pushing hangers on who retire at 55 with a huge pension then return to work the next day. And as for from the cradle to the grave that is for your family to look after you not the state I thought that labour leader was on the ball when he said he would raise 20 billlion  with the robin hood tax  spend 10 billlion on schools etc then the punch line give 10 billion to foreign aid ffs you couldnt make it up stop immigration cut the dole lower minimum wage to make exports cheaper invest in new ship yards etc  manufacture is the answer

Quoted from north wall

Yes the essential services are required and do a marvellous job and derserve more money  its all the pen pushing hangers on who retire at 55 with a huge pension then return to work the next day. And as for from the cradle to the grave that is for your family to look after you not the state I thought that labour leader was on the ball when he said he would raise 20 billlion  with the robin hood tax  spend 10 billlion on schools etc then the punch line give 10 billion to foreign aid ffs you couldnt make it up stop immigration cut the dole lower minimum wage to make exports cheaper invest in new ship yards etc  manufacture is the answer

The average state pension is just over £4,500. For every big pension earner, there are hundreds of part time women who earn peanuts, and their pension - if they can afford the contributions - is also peanuts. How on earth do you think that lowering the minimum wage will benefit working class folk? This is a serious question by the way, because you make some outrageous statements "cradle to grave it's your family who look after you" Was your dad a midwife? Was the Community Nurse who looked after your mother post delivery your aunty? Do you honestly think that everything is hunky dory on households that this could actually happen now that over 45% of all marriages end in divorce?

Please rationalise your arguments, and don't resort to ridiculous cliches...

Look red Ken who said anything about the state pension i was on about the fatcat civil servants coppers (none contributary pensions) etc who retire early take the pension and go back to work the next day drawing a wage and their pension, They should be made to work until retirement age like everyone else and then get the pension. The minmum wage is a govt con for the voters is anyone better off now than say 10 year ago  no because with every wage rise prices go up accordingly and  pay tax on it and more jobs go abroad increasing the tax burdon on those still working.  As for cradle to the grave i was on about these people who think the world owes them everything and expect the state to support them never contribute a penny just take take take. Its very similar to the way you jocks take our tax money. You mention the unions earlier yes they did a good job with the ship and mine and car industry didnt they. Union leaders just like politicians in it as a carreer and looking after number one.

Quoted from north wall

Look red Ken who said anything about the state pension i was on about the fatcat civil servants coppers (none contributary pensions) etc who retire early take the pension and go back to work the next day drawing a wage and their pension, They should be made to work until retirement age like everyone else and then get the pension. The minmum wage is a govt con for the voters is anyone better off now than say 10 year ago  no because with every wage rise prices go up accordingly and  pay tax on it and more jobs go abroad increasing the tax burdon on those still working.  As for cradle to the grave i was on about these people who think the world owes them everything and expect the state to support them never contribute a penny just take take take. Its very similar to the way you jocks take our tax money. You mention the unions earlier yes they did a good job with the ship and mine and car industry didnt they. Union leaders just like politicians in it as a carreer and looking after number one.

Yawn.....