This England team…

…is starting to remind me of our last promotion side and our play off adventures.

Absolutely, the pundits , the fans and the Press have given them a reason to fight . Sometimes that’s all it takes

Southgate ear cup if we lift the trophy. Knighthood when he gets home.

Quoted from cardiffmariner

…is starting to remind me of our last promotion side and our play off adventures.

They remind me more of last season's squad, only turning up once we're behind and I don't think Spain will let us back into the game like the Dutch did

Crikey, you're so often negative about Town, I guess it's no surprise you feel similarly about England.

You're entitled to your views of course, but c'mon lad relax and enjoy the ride. Tonight was great.

Quoted from nickmariners

Crikey, you're so often negative about Town, I guess it's no surprise you feel similarly about England.

You're entitled to your views of course, but c'mon lad relax and enjoy the ride. Tonight was great.

I think you'll find since Hurst left I've been a lot more optimistic and looking forward to next season. Tonight was alright. It still took a goal from the Dutch for them to wake up and for Hurstgate to finally make a sub in the second half we clearly needed for a long time. Spain will pull us apart

Quoted from sonofmadeleymariner

I think you'll find since Hurst left I've been a lot more optimistic and looking forward to next season. Tonight was alright. It still took a goal from the Dutch for them to wake up and for Hurstgate to finally make a sub in the second half we clearly needed for a long time. Spain will pull us apart

Hopefully you can watch a Heartbeat repeat on ITV 4 instead this coming Sunday.

It's weird how Ingerlund have managed to get through to the final despite 4 of their very best players (Foden, Kane, Rice & Bellingham), having been poor throughout the tournament.
Even more baffling is that the anonymous Kane has managed to become leading top goalscorer!
you do wonder if their name is on the cup

They are just matching our long and proud tradition of our best players under-performing at major tournaments. In the past we didn't tend to get much past the group stage, so this is certainly a change.

Should be noted that despite underwhelming performances, Kane and Bellingham have together scored more goals than France managed this tournament!

Teams that win the euro and world cups often start poor and improve as the games are played.

Spain on the other hand have started well and kept playing well until they got to the final.

I hope  

Foden was outstanding in the first half last night and we reduced the Dutch to packing the midfield and lumping it to the big lad. England haven't always been an easy watch in this tournament but every game of the knockout phase has delivered at least one amazing moment - late equalisers, last minute goals, penalty shootout wins.

I wonder if the people complaining have forgotten what it was like watching England before Southgate. Some need to stop stroking their chins and trying to provide their own hot tactical insights and just enjoy the ride.  

The Dutch big lump up front could not even hold down a space in a poor Burnley side last season. England have some very good players.
We have a good chance of beating Spain on Sunday

yes, our best players not doing well.  Foden good last night though.  Bellingham knackered after supporting Madrid through the first half if the season. Then to a CL Final.    Still scored 23 goals.  If he does not play well on Sunday then he has many other games to shine. He got a freekick last night in the last minute with a driving run.

Mainoo has come of age.  Most accurate passing stats in Euro's ever for a midfielder (OPTA).  Last night he had more interceptions, and made more key passes than any other England player.

Watkins might be portrayed as an ex NL player.  But he scored 27 goals last season.  His 13 assists was the most in the Prem.  Player of the season with some journalists.

We have a high-quality squad who can change games.

Quoted from IlkleyMariner

The Dutch big lump up front could not even hold down a space in a poor Burnley side last season.

Tbf he was playing for someone else.

Quoted from Rodley Mariner

I wonder if the people complaining have forgotten what it was like watching England before Southgate. Some need to stop stroking their chins and trying to provide their own hot tactical insights and just enjoy the ride.  

Absolutely this!  Or even forgotten what the vast majority of tournaments are like.  World Cups are often more exciting, largely in my opinion because there's still an unknown factor to some of the teams.  But the Euro's generally are always flat as hell with teams just focused on avoiding defeat.

Semi-final
Final
Quarter-final
Final*

That's Southgate's tournament record for England.  Outstanding and even more so when you compare it to everything that's gone before him.   Hodgson - embarassing.  Capello - embarassing - McClaren - didn't even qualify.  Sven - wasted opportunity - Keegan - out in the groups. Hoddle - the one who might have taken us to something better had he not proved to be a horrible excrement.  El Tel - Semi-final.  Taylor - Out in the groups.  Robson - Quarter's and Semi's at World Cup but very disappointing in the Euro's.

Back to Sir Alf before you get another finalist and his best after that was a semi-final in '68.   Football very different then too.

Those who criticise Southgate tend to say he's only achieved what he has because of an outstanding set of players who he's constantly held back and failed to get the best from. Which seems weird as they are/were the same people who constantly told us that Pickford is an average keeper, Walker is just fast, Harry Maguire is excrement, Trippier is poor, Lingard and Dele Alli were crap, Sterling shouldn't be in the squad, Rashford was only interested in gesture politics, that we haven't got any world class defenders, Kane is past it, Saka is overrated................

Quoted from sonofmadeleymariner

I think you'll find since Hurst left I've been a lot more optimistic and looking forward to next season. Tonight was alright. It still took a goal from the Dutch for them to wake up and for Hurstgate to finally make a sub in the second half we clearly needed for a long time. Spain will pull us apart

They absolutely won’t .

Spain have progress well and played better in each games, but they sat back alot in the 2nd half against France, Lamal hardly had any of the ball.  I think we can beat them, and yet the 1 thing the Spanish should be worried about is when we do turn up.  My only worry really is if they go down when you go near them like they have been shot and the ref buys it.  

Quoted from Meza

Spain have progress well and played better in each games, but they sat back alot in the 2nd half against France, Lamal hardly had any of the ball.  I think we can beat them, and yet the 1 thing the Spanish should be worried about is when we do turn up. My only worry really is if they go down when you go near them like they have been shot and the ref buys it.  

Like Kane last night then??

I remember the Spanish and French being quite physical and a bit dirty in their semi.

England now know how to play tournament football, yes we haven’t won anything since 66 and though then I was still a twinkle in the milk man’s eye, just, it’s always seemed to me we came out on top in some tight games rather than destroying teams.

The reason we’ve not done anything since is because in the last 30 years or so prior to Gareth Southgate coming in we’ve never been really set up on & off the pitch to do well at tournaments. Whatever happens on Sunday we have a structure around the national side that should serve us well for the future, again Gareth has led this.

I think this will still be Gareth’s last game in charge and as ever the press & media will start pushing “their man” but though many people will think this is bonkers I suspect we’ll just promote from within rather than going back to “club England” as Keegan started calling it.

Yeah wouldn't be surprised to see Lee Carsley get it, rather than a name club manager.

Quoted from Hagrid

[/b]

Like Kane last night then??

Are you talking about the penalty? Listen, I don’t think it was a penalty myself, but there is no doubt that Kane kicked the other blokes foot pretty hard and with the boots they wear nowadays it would have been pretty painful. I don’t think he dived or went down softly at all

The penalty (which shouldn't really have been) was just an example of the vagaries of the way in which challenges are interpreted these days. Anywhere else on a pitch - say somebody trying to block a defensive clearance - and it would have been a booking and a yellow card. Therefore, when the same happens in the box, it's a penalty. Intent not of any interest these days so it was just unfortunate for the Dutch. No doubt it bloody well hurt Kane, so no idea why there are any claims he was faking it!

Kane start the game on Sunday night as well. He's scored 52 goals (!) this season, as well as making assists well into double figures. Every other team in the tournament would be playing him, even if his form is relatively indifferent, what with being joint top scorer. The formation we're playing barely gets the ball anywhere near him so it's not surprising he hasn't been involved a great deal in most of the games, yet still he's scored. Watkins is a good option off the bench when Kane and the opposition defenders have tired.

Quoted from Rodley Mariner

Those who criticise Southgate tend to say he's only achieved what he has because of an outstanding set of players who he's constantly held back and failed to get the best from. Which seems weird as they are/were the same people who constantly told us that Pickford is an average keeper, Walker is just fast, Harry Maguire is excrement, Trippier is poor, Lingard and Dele Alli were crap, Sterling shouldn't be in the squad, Rashford was only interested in gesture politics, that we haven't got any world class defenders, Kane is past it, Saka is overrated................

What's more important in Southgates role with Englands increased success in recent history compared to further history goes beyond his time as England manager. Years back the FA looked at why we kept failing and studied the ways in which all the successful nations played, how they coached from junior level upwards, how they educated coaches, the philosophies they had as a nation, what their identity was and all that sort of stuff. From that was born the England DNA.

That project included Gareth Southgate and Dan Ashworth (amongst others of course) and they pioneered how we would take English football forward and look to create the players that could play with more freedom and expression and help us get to the major finals. It's why from this project he became England U21 manager and then into the main job, it was always a matter of succession. His links to Man Utd in recent months stem from Dan Ashworth going into them and the relationship they have.

I do think it's ironic that the idea was to create players to play with freedom and expression given - in my personal opinion - we don't seem to have done that in the Euros. We've improved each game since the knockouts but it's still very safe and cautious for my liking. When you've got to the final, any 'complaints' or critiques seem in vain really and however we got there we can only congratulate I suppose and just hope they can take that step further than the last time and bring it home.

Quoted from TownSNAFU5

Bellingham knackered after supporting Madrid through the first half if the season. Then to a CL Final.    Still scored 23 goals.  If he does not play well on Sunday then he has many other games to shine. He got a freekick last night in the last minute with a driving run.

In his debut season at Real Madrid has done well and has been lauded overall by the football specific club dailys Marca and AS who specifically focus on Real Madrid.

The passion for Real Madrid probably surpasses even that of the national team specifically for those who live in the capital of Spain . Talking to lads out there who I've known all my life say whenever Real play in the champions league a lot of people come out to the bars to watch the games more so than the national team. I was out there on partly work issues this year in Madrid and saw for myself the passion that exists for the club on the night Madrid beat Man City. In the flat we were staying and in the many of bars ( a city that's renowned for them) all were full of Madrid fans prior to the game .

Bellingham would of been marked by the celebrations as well following Madrids champions league win. I actually went down to the stadium to take in the atmosphere as where we were staying was close to the ground. I actually saw Bellingham get driven in by his mum and you would of thought Jesus had come back. Near the ground at roughly  4 pm at the beginning of the Real Madrid celebrations I personally saw 10 fans break through police lines trying to get an autograph from him and police had to intervene to protect fans going overboard with hysteria over seeing Jude  in the flesh. This happened not just once but twice on the roundabout by the stadium. Likewise on that Sunday following the champions win large central parts of the city was shut off as Madrid kicked of a traditional structured  itinerary which involved firstly going to the cathedral to get blessed by the priest  in La Almudena cathedral, meeting politicians,figureheads of Madrid and meeting the public in various iconic points of the capital such as Plaza Del Sol and Cibeles. It finished up with a grand celebration late in the day in their stadium .

The BBC reported today that the Golden Boot could be shared by 5 people.  If Kane and Olmo (spelling) do not score.

6 scorers if Bellingham scores.

The goals scored might be the same, but the actual Golden Boot award will go to whoever's got the most assists

It seems like many fans are quick to praise Gareth Southgate, but let's take a moment to look at the tournament. So far, we've only seen one truly strong half of football; the rest has ranged from mediocre to downright poor. Much of this can be attributed to Southgate's conservative tactics.

Despite criticisms aimed at star players, it's actually been these very players, Kane, Bellingham, and Saka who have consistently delivered crucial moments to salvage the team's performance. We're talking about a squad boasting the best player in Spain, the top player in England, and the leading striker in Europe, all of whom had exceptional seasons. Yet, with an attack this potent, Southgate has them playing defensively, which is baffling.

Southgate is undoubtedly a decent person, but his tactical approach often seems overly cautious. With the talent available, I believe a different manager could have potentially secured a major title by now. We've seen how Southgate's strategies possibly cost us during critical moments, like the World Cup 2018 semi-final against Croatia and the Euro 2020 final against Italy.

While he gets some credit for leading us to these stages, I can't help thinking if other managers could have achieved more, given the quality of our players and the relatively favourable draws in recent tournaments.

Here’s hoping for an England victory this Sunday, and maybe a little bit more luck for Southgate... if you can't be good, be lucky  

Quoted from MarinerMal

It seems like many fans are quick to praise Gareth Southgate, but let's take a moment to look at the tournament. So far, we've only seen one truly strong half of football; the rest has ranged from mediocre to downright poor. Much of this can be attributed to Southgate's conservative tactics.

Despite criticisms aimed at star players, it's actually been these very players, Kane, Bellingham, and Saka who have consistently delivered crucial moments to salvage the team's performance. We're talking about a squad boasting the best player in Spain, the top player in England, and the leading striker in Europe, all of whom had exceptional seasons. Yet, with an attack this potent, Southgate has them playing defensively, which is baffling.

Southgate is undoubtedly a decent person, but his tactical approach often seems overly cautious. With the talent available, I believe a different manager could have potentially secured a major title by now. We've seen how Southgate's strategies possibly cost us during critical moments, like the World Cup 2018 semi-final against Croatia and the Euro 2020 final against Italy.

While he gets some credit for leading us to these stages, I can't help thinking if other managers could have achieved more, given the quality of our players and the relatively favourable draws in recent tournaments.

Here’s hoping for an England victory this Sunday, and maybe a little bit more luck for Southgate... if you can't be good, be lucky  

Sven had a better starting 11 and didn't get us past a quarter final. I couldn't give a monkey's how Southgate sets us up, he's delivered more than any other England manager for 58 years and I'd much rather be in a final playing cautiously than what we've had before.

I also think it's easier said than done breaking down 11 man defences. The first time a team tried to play against us, we dominated them for 45 minutes. They then resulted to everybody defending and trying to hit on the counter.

Quoted from MarinerMal

Despite criticisms aimed at star players, it's actually been these very players, Kane, Bellingham, and Saka who have consistently delivered crucial moments to salvage the team's performance. We're talking about a squad boasting the best player in Spain

The one at Madrid that gets more plaudits than the likes of Bellingham though is Vincius Jr.

Quoted from pen penfras

Sven had a better starting 11 and didn't get us past a quarter final. I couldn't give a monkey's how Southgate sets us up, he's delivered more than any other England manager for 58 years and I'd much rather be in a final playing cautiously than what we've had before.

I also think it's easier said than done breaking down 11 man defences. The first time a team tried to play against us, we dominated them for 45 minutes. They then resulted to everybody defending and trying to hit on the counter.

I disagree Sven had a better team. This team is much better technically and then the so called "Golden Generation".

Of course it is difficult breaking down 11 men defences but you make it much more difficult for yourselves sitting so deep and resorting to long balls out of defence.

Quoted from Rick12

The one at Madrid that gets more plaudits than the likes of Bellingham though is Vincius Jr.

I'm talking of the one voted La Liga player of the year not the runner-up.

Quoted from MarinerMal

I disagree Sven had a better team. This team is much better technically and then the so called "Golden Generation".

Of course it is difficult breaking down 11 men defences but you make it much more difficult for yourselves sitting so deep and resorting to long balls out of defence.

Better Individual maybe under Sven, maybe not as good a spirit.

Hardly surprising with the likes of John terry about. girl private

Watch this . . .  

[youtube]be46tzOsIOo[/youtube]

I’m not sure how anyone who’s followed England for the last 50 years can have the expectation that we will win every tournament playing amazing attacking football. Remember it was Big Sam he took over from.

We have a very good squad of players but they are not 1970 Brazil. We go into tournaments with a good chance but nothing more than that. I would say a semi final is par, final is a Birdie and winning it would be an Eagle.

It’s interesting where the narrative around Southgate has come from. I do think his dignified support of his players wanting to take the knee changed a certain section of society’s views. Once it takes hold it’s difficult to shift and everyone piles into it (there are ‘we wouldn’t have got promoted if Monkhouse had stayed fit vibes about it’). There seems to be a belief that we should have comfortably won against Italy but the starting line up included Mount, Sterling, Maguire and Phillips who have struggling to get a Premier League game since. The easy draw line is also brought out but I don’t remember anyone calling Bobby Robson lucky for drawing Cameroon in a World Cup quarter final.

I do find it sad that Southgate has had to put up with what he has. I’ve no doubt some people will relish the opportunity to hammer him if we lose tomorrow. He is what I would consider a proper Englishman, understated, dignified, humble, strong silent type. It’s unfortunate that those values don’t seem to matter to a lot of people anymore. The sight of him applauding the England fans whilst having pint thrown at him was a sorry sight. By all means have an opinion on his management each game, it’s fine to have an opinion but it’s also possible to recognise that he has overachieved and deserves respect even when he gets things wrong.

Here’s hoping for an England win tomorrow but also a dignified English response in defeat. Despite the narrative we have overarched by reaching the last 2 of a 32 team tournament for the second time in a row. The top nations don’t just win tournaments out of the blue, they do it by regularly putting themselves in the last 4. Let’s hope England continue to do that and we are not left to reflect on this era as an under appreciated anomaly in our lifetime.

Quoted from Vance Warner

I’m not sure how anyone who’s followed England for the last 50 years can have the expectation that we will win every tournament playing amazing attacking football. Remember it was Big Sam he took over from.

We have a very good squad of players but they are not 1970 Brazil. We go into tournaments with a good chance but nothing more than that. I would say a semi final is par, final is a Birdie and winning it would be an Eagle.

It’s interesting where the narrative around Southgate has come from. I do think his dignified support of his players wanting to take the knee changed a certain section of society’s views. Once it takes hold it’s difficult to shift and everyone piles into it (there are ‘we wouldn’t have got promoted if Monkhouse had stayed fit vibes about it’). There seems to be a belief that we should have comfortably won against Italy but the starting line up included Mount, Sterling, Maguire and Phillips who have struggling to get a Premier League game since. The easy draw line is also brought out but I don’t remember anyone calling Bobby Robson lucky for drawing Cameroon in a World Cup quarter final.

I do find it sad that Southgate has had to put up with what he has. I’ve no doubt some people will relish the opportunity to hammer him if we lose tomorrow. He is what I would consider a proper Englishman, understated, dignified, humble, strong silent type. It’s unfortunate that those values don’t seem to matter to a lot of people anymore. The sight of him applauding the England fans whilst having pint thrown at him was a sorry sight. By all means have an opinion on his management each game, it’s fine to have an opinion but it’s also possible to recognise that he has overachieved and deserves respect even when he gets things wrong.

Here’s hoping for an England win tomorrow but also a dignified English response in defeat. Despite the narrative we have overarched by reaching the last 2 of a 32 team tournament for the second time in a row. The top nations don’t just win tournaments out of the blue, they do it by regularly putting themselves in the last 4. Let’s hope England continue to do that and we are not left to reflect on this era as an under appreciated anomaly in our lifetime.

Very well put , I think it’s a minority of moaning simpletons who love to express their distain for their National Team if they don’t win a trophy playing the kind of football England have never played in theirs or my lifetime. Jose M was a master at navigating tournaments and leagues playing percentage football ( he’s loved at Chelsea)

Quoted from Vance Warner

I’m not sure how anyone who’s followed England for the last 50 years can have the expectation that we will win every tournament playing amazing attacking football. Remember it was Big Sam he took over from.

We have a very good squad of players but they are not 1970 Brazil. We go into tournaments with a good chance but nothing more than that. I would say a semi final is par, final is a Birdie and winning it would be an Eagle.

It’s interesting where the narrative around Southgate has come from. I do think his dignified support of his players wanting to take the knee changed a certain section of society’s views. Once it takes hold it’s difficult to shift and everyone piles into it (there are ‘we wouldn’t have got promoted if Monkhouse had stayed fit vibes about it’). There seems to be a belief that we should have comfortably won against Italy but the starting line up included Mount, Sterling, Maguire and Phillips who have struggling to get a Premier League game since. The easy draw line is also brought out but I don’t remember anyone calling Bobby Robson lucky for drawing Cameroon in a World Cup quarter final.

I do find it sad that Southgate has had to put up with what he has. I’ve no doubt some people will relish the opportunity to hammer him if we lose tomorrow. He is what I would consider a proper Englishman, understated, dignified, humble, strong silent type. It’s unfortunate that those values don’t seem to matter to a lot of people anymore. The sight of him applauding the England fans whilst having pint thrown at him was a sorry sight. By all means have an opinion on his management each game, it’s fine to have an opinion but it’s also possible to recognise that he has overachieved and deserves respect even when he gets things wrong.

Here’s hoping for an England win tomorrow but also a dignified English response in defeat. Despite the narrative we have overarched by reaching the last 2 of a 32 team tournament for the second time in a row. The top nations don’t just win tournaments out of the blue, they do it by regularly putting themselves in the last 4. Let’s hope England continue to do that and we are not left to reflect on this era as an under appreciated anomaly in our lifetime.

Spot on, and how I see it.


Maybe one thing I’d add is Gareth got us to tomorrow’s final (Wednesday apart) without us playing particularly well which in my mind speaks volumes.

Quoted from MarinerMal

I disagree Sven had a better team. This team is much better technically and then the so called "Golden Generation".

Of course it is difficult breaking down 11 men defences but you make it much more difficult for yourselves sitting so deep and resorting to long balls out of defence.

Agree on that .

That era the players just mirrored the way the EPL was played though didn't it ? Pace,power, stamina ; shots , goals and drama .

I would say in that era the best players for us were not particularly technically decent but more reliant on other attributes which were effective  week in week out in the league but flawed when it came to big tournaments both for club and country .

With the wealth and popularity of the league it then attracted the more technical players , our own get coached in a different way and of course there is Pep who everyone seems to want to copy these days .

Quoted from Hagrid

Better Individual maybe under Sven, maybe not as good a spirit.

Hardly surprising with the likes of John terry about. girl private

Yeah the 'golden generation' were better individuals but as a team nowhere near as good. Plus the pressure really got to them and some of them didn't really enjoy playing for England. Not helped by the likes of capello and his fuhrer style management.

Southgate has put so much effort into building England as a together team, a together squad and making the experience one that players want to be part of - and he is reaping his rewards for that. It's obvious he's not the most tactically gifted manager but hoddle and Venables were lauded as being ahead of their time etc and he's comfortably surpassed their achievements time after time.

Quoted from Mappers

Agree on that .

That era the players just mirrored the way the EPL was played though didn't it ? Pace,power, stamina ; shots , goals and drama .

I would say in that era the best players for us were not particularly technically decent but more reliant on other attributes which were effective  week in week out in the league but flawed when it came to big tournaments both for club and country .

With the wealth and popularity of the league it then attracted the more technical players , our own get coached in a different way and of course there is Pep who everyone seems to want to copy these days .

I think that 2006 squad had more attributes than you describe though not to the level of the current crop.

There’s a few other things that’s helped improve our quality,

- Kids growing up developing their game on smaller pitches..

- Better qualified coaches, this is very important despite some posters on here deriding FA & UEFA badges.

- Academies, whether that’s at the highest level or at clubs like ours.

I know you wasn’t suggesting it but not all of the foreigners who have played in the Prem are “technicians” as the pundits & commentators like to call them but there have been loads that have added value & been/are a pleasure to watch on the odd few occasions I bother watching.

As a comparison, my dad took me to the infamous Poland match in 1974.  The only England game that I have gone to.

Brian Clough said that their keeper was a clown.  He played a blinder.  They had Gadocka and Lato - good players.  I can still see Norman Hunter missing a crucial tackle on the halfway line. They scored.

Quoted from Vance Warner

I’m not sure how anyone who’s followed England for the last 50 years can have the expectation that we will win every tournament playing amazing attacking football. Remember it was Big Sam he took over from.

We have a very good squad of players but they are not 1970 Brazil. We go into tournaments with a good chance but nothing more than that. I would say a semi final is par, final is a Birdie and winning it would be an Eagle.

It’s interesting where the narrative around Southgate has come from. I do think his dignified support of his players wanting to take the knee changed a certain section of society’s views. Once it takes hold it’s difficult to shift and everyone piles into it (there are ‘we wouldn’t have got promoted if Monkhouse had stayed fit vibes about it’). There seems to be a belief that we should have comfortably won against Italy but the starting line up included Mount, Sterling, Maguire and Phillips who have struggling to get a Premier League game since. The easy draw line is also brought out but I don’t remember anyone calling Bobby Robson lucky for drawing Cameroon in a World Cup quarter final.

I do find it sad that Southgate has had to put up with what he has. I’ve no doubt some people will relish the opportunity to hammer him if we lose tomorrow. He is what I would consider a proper Englishman, understated, dignified, humble, strong silent type. It’s unfortunate that those values don’t seem to matter to a lot of people anymore. The sight of him applauding the England fans whilst having pint thrown at him was a sorry sight. By all means have an opinion on his management each game, it’s fine to have an opinion but it’s also possible to recognise that he has overachieved and deserves respect even when he gets things wrong.

Here’s hoping for an England win tomorrow but also a dignified English response in defeat. Despite the narrative we have overarched by reaching the last 2 of a 32 team tournament for the second time in a row. The top nations don’t just win tournaments out of the blue, they do it by regularly putting themselves in the last 4. Let’s hope England continue to do that and we are not left to reflect on this era as an under appreciated anomaly in our lifetime.

First off, thanks for your insightful counter-argument to my post and I do appreciate some of the points you've raise.

I’ve been following England for about 50 years. My earliest memories are of World Cups that England didn’t even qualify for, so my expectations have always been tempered. Reaching a quarter-final seemed like a decent showing; semi-finals made you dare to hope.

However, a common theme in the tournaments was England's poor tactical and technical approach. We never seemed to keep the ball as well as the opposition and our tactics were often predictable. So much so the rest of the continent often made fun of the fact. They knew how to set up against England and beat them. So the first time we came across tough opposition we were often beaten. As you mentioned, the England team is often a reflection of the League and it showed in the England teams.

This team is different. Different from any previous England teams, even the much overhyped Golden generation. We now posses technical players who can keep possession as well as most other teams. We have an abundant of riches never seen before in an England Squad. Players who have gone abroad and not just do well but been the best player or best goal scorer in their leagues. The player of the year in England, in one of the most successful teams ever, beating all his foreign teammates to become the best player in the league.

Despite this richness in attacking talent we have a manager who still wants England to play very negatively. I know people where as frustrated with England's earlier displays as I was. His 'experiment' with Alexander-Arnold was bizarre. He sets his team up too deep and everytime we take the lead our tactical plan seems to be everybody drop back to the edge of the box and defend. While I understand the need for caution in matches against top-tier teams, protecting early leads against Serbia and Denmark seems excessive? Our squad should be capable of controlling these games more assertively.

I don't expect England to win games 3 or 4-0, I just want to see a more progressive type of football that suits the players we have and control football games. Win, lose or draw.

Things have improved somewhat in the last couple of matches. He made the changes many of us were calling out for, the team looks more balanced and is sitting 5 or 10 yards further up the pitch. One thing I would say though, in the last two games we have not taken the lead in any of them until the 90th minute in the semi's. I think that helped us stay more positive. Yet, there remains a concern, if we take an early lead, will we revert to deep defensive tactics as we did against Italy in the last final? Against a team like Spain, this could be risky and I feel we'd need a better tactical plan.

I hold a lot of respect for Southgate as a person, and your description of him as a proper Englishman resonates with me. Any abuse directed at him or any manager is unacceptable, and that's not what I'm advocating. I merely wish for a strategy that leverages our squad's capabilities more effectively.

I know criticising Southgate isn't popular but I would love to have had all your thoughts in the 95th minute vs Slovakia

I'm with you hoping for an England win tomorrow but think you may disappointed by the reaction if they lose though. Southgate will be his normal classy self but in the age of social media we know what will be coming. I'll be disappointed and left wondering if a different manager or maybe a different tactical approach could have got us over the line. But isn't that always the way with football fans

But I desperately hope Gareth does it tomorrow. I've never witnessed England win a major tournament being born 2 years after the 66 success and I wouldn't begrudge him any credit that came his way, either.

As a comparison, my dad took me to the infamous Poland match in 1974.  The only England game that I have gone to.

Brian Clough said that their keeper was a clown.  He played a blinder.  They had Gadocka and Lato - good players.  I can still see Norman Hunter missing a crucial tackle on the halfway line. They scored.

We failed to qualify for the 1974 and 1978 World Cups.  Dark days indeed.

So much better now.

I was 18 when I watched England win the world cup on our black+white 12ins. Telly.

I think I have suffered enough over the years so an England win to go with towns promotion will go down a treat.

AND

It's possible come on England and you mariners !!

I've gotta admit I thought this was a tournament too far for Gareth but he's made me eat my words (and many others on here) it's the  best England showing since 66 being in a final on foreign soil for the first time, however it turns out he's gone better than all before in their attempts at that - including Alf Ramsey.

Quoted from grimsby pete

I was 18 when I watched England win the world cup on our black+white 12ins. Telly.

I think I have suffered enough over the years so an England win to go with towns promotion will go down a treat.

AND

It's possible come on England and you mariners !!

I was 20, and watching it in my house with a German couple.  They were touring the UK on a motorbike and stopped at the cafe where my Mother worked and asked if she knew anywhere they could watch the Final,  She rang me to let me know they were coming, and to make them a pot of tea!

Quoted from MarinerMal

First off, thanks for your insightful counter-argument to my post and I do appreciate some of the points you've raise.

I’ve been following England for about 50 years. My earliest memories are of World Cups that England didn’t even qualify for, so my expectations have always been tempered. Reaching a quarter-final seemed like a decent showing; semi-finals made you dare to hope.

However, a common theme in the tournaments was England's poor tactical and technical approach. We never seemed to keep the ball as well as the opposition and our tactics were often predictable. So much so the rest of the continent often made fun of the fact. They knew how to set up against England and beat them. So the first time we came across tough opposition we were often beaten. As you mentioned, the England team is often a reflection of the League and it showed in the England teams.

This team is different. Different from any previous England teams, even the much overhyped Golden generation. We now posses technical players who can keep possession as well as most other teams. We have an abundant of riches never seen before in an England Squad. Players who have gone abroad and not just do well but been the best player or best goal scorer in their leagues. The player of the year in England, in one of the most successful teams ever, beating all his foreign teammates to become the best player in the league.

Despite this richness in attacking talent we have a manager who still wants England to play very negatively. I know people where as frustrated with England's earlier displays as I was. His 'experiment' with Alexander-Arnold was bizarre. He sets his team up too deep and everytime we take the lead our tactical plan seems to be everybody drop back to the edge of the box and defend. While I understand the need for caution in matches against top-tier teams, protecting early leads against Serbia and Denmark seems excessive? Our squad should be capable of controlling these games more assertively.

I don't expect England to win games 3 or 4-0, I just want to see a more progressive type of football that suits the players we have and control football games. Win, lose or draw.

Things have improved somewhat in the last couple of matches. He made the changes many of us were calling out for, the team looks more balanced and is sitting 5 or 10 yards further up the pitch. One thing I would say though, in the last two games we have not taken the lead in any of them until the 90th minute in the semi's. I think that helped us stay more positive. Yet, there remains a concern, if we take an early lead, will we revert to deep defensive tactics as we did against Italy in the last final? Against a team like Spain, this could be risky and I feel we'd need a better tactical plan.

I hold a lot of respect for Southgate as a person, and your description of him as a proper Englishman resonates with me. Any abuse directed at him or any manager is unacceptable, and that's not what I'm advocating. I merely wish for a strategy that leverages our squad's capabilities more effectively.

I know criticising Southgate isn't popular but I would love to have had all your thoughts in the 95th minute vs Slovakia

I'm with you hoping for an England win tomorrow but think you may disappointed by the reaction if they lose though. Southgate will be his normal classy self but in the age of social media we know what will be coming. I'll be disappointed and left wondering if a different manager or maybe a different tactical approach could have got us over the line. But isn't that always the way with football fans

But I desperately hope Gareth does it tomorrow. I've never witnessed England win a major tournament being born 2 years after the 66 success and I wouldn't begrudge him any credit that came his way, either.

Though I see it differently, good post that 👍

I didn't get into football as a kid until round 8 y.o.  Parents got me a fake Liverpool kit with iron on badge lol, well it looked like a Liverpool kit haha.  I can't remember watching any World Cup until '86' when i got my first Panini book.  I use to look at the other teams players and Bulgaria made me laugh, i'd take the michael out the players name as they all seem to have "ov" at the end of their names so use to pretend the commentator sayng.. 'Getov' passes to fuckov, who crosses for pisov.

[img]https://www.footballfinery.co.uk/cdn/shop/files/panini-sticker-album-mexico-86-complete-ff202963-474455.jpg?v=1711133383&width=1200[/img][img]https://www.footballfinery.co.uk/cdn/shop/files/panini-sticker-album-mexico-86-complete-ff202963-366969.jpg?v=1711133383&width=1200[/img][img]https://www.footballfinery.co.uk/cdn/shop/files/panini-sticker-album-mexico-86-complete-ff202963-685810.jpg?v=1711133384&width=1200[/img][img]https://www.footballfinery.co.uk/cdn/shop/files/panini-sticker-album-mexico-86-complete-ff202963-620314.jpg?v=1711133384&width=1200[/img]
[img]https://www.footballfinery.co.uk/cdn/shop/files/panini-sticker-album-mexico-86-complete-ff202963-675700.jpg?v=1711133384&width=1200[/img][img]https://www.footballfinery.co.uk/cdn/shop/files/panini-sticker-album-mexico-86-complete-ff202963-984237.jpg?v=1711133383&width=1200[/img][img]https://www.footballfinery.co.uk/cdn/shop/files/panini-sticker-album-mexico-86-complete-ff202963-122204.jpg?v=1711133384&width=1200[/img][img]https://www.footballfinery.co.uk/cdn/shop/files/panini-sticker-album-mexico-86-complete-ff202963-673068.jpg?v=1711133384&width=1200[/img]

Came across this photo earlier; seemed somewhat poignant. Makes you wonder what Venables was saying to him, with such a look of dejection written on his face. Makes you wonder what he’d say to him now, were he still of this mortal coil.

It would be beautifully poetic if England were to win on penalties tomorrow night.

[img]https://i2-prod.dailystar.co.uk/incoming/article22007491.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/1_JS198353285.jpg[/img]

Quoted from Ruuger

I was 20, and watching it in my house with a German couple.  They were touring the UK on a motorbike and stopped at the cafe where my Mother worked and asked if she knew anywhere they could watch the Final,  She rang me to let me know they were coming, and to make them a pot of tea!

Did they think that goal was over the line of too polite to comment. ?

Quoted from grimsby pete

Did they think that goal was over the line of too polite to comment. ?

Lol, too far back for me to remember mate.

I think its pretty hard to criticize Southgate for what he has achieved so far in his tenure. As a person born in the '70's, watching England prior to Southgate has been a mix of fleeting moments of excitement in a sea of disappointment and underachievement.

I do believe that he had, possibly for the first time ever for an England manager in that period, almost a 'blank cheque' due to the incredibly low levels of confidence the nation had in the team. When he went to his first tournament I seem to recall the general feeling was that if they managed to get out of the group stages that would have been a success!

I feel Southgate used that situation brilliantly. With low expectations he got a bunch of talented players he knew from his time with the under 21's who were not scarred or burdened by previous experiences and set about creating an environment where they could thrive. He also masterfully built a relationship with the press that was more supportive of the project rather than one where they were waiting with daggers.

Some may not like the style of play, feel he is too conservative, too slow at making changes etc, however there has been more joy watching his teams go consistently deep in tournaments than the times before he took over, which were pretty woeful by and large.

Having said all that, it's fair to criticize some of his decisions, and some of the performances in the early stages of this tournament especially have been pretty dire. However I feel any of those criticisms should be made with a view to where we were before he took the job. He's got us to a a world cup semi and quarter and 2 euro finals. From my previous experiences, this is almost like a dream!!

Ultimately, Southgate's record speaks for itself. England are now consistently reaching the latter stages of tournaments, something we've never done before. It's corresponded, and largely been driven by, an atmosphere change in the set-up which has made playing for England a more positive experience.

But there can also be no denying that Southgate has been handed some very favourable draws during his tenure, arguably at three out of his four major tournaments. That's obviously not his fault, but I'd argue we've still failed to beat a world class team at a tournament under him. The Netherlands are good but nothing special, and the Germans were struggling when we beat them at the last Euros. What would our record look like without those favourable draws? It's obviously impossible to tell but it's interesting that Southgate's win rate is actually quite a bit below Capello's, who was handed much tougher draws and his reign is rightly viewed as the dark days.

There are also tactical question marks. It's interesting that most of Europe views Southgate fairly negatively too, so it's not just England fans who have their doubts

For me, Southgate has dragged England into a great place but it feels like there's still so much more potential that could see us become a dominant force in world football for the next decade. Whatever happens in the final, Southgate has provided a great platform for the team to kick on from but I think that will need to happen under new leadership.

Quoted from Mariner93er

Ultimately, Southgate's record speaks for itself. England are now consistently reaching the latter stages of tournaments, something we've never done before. It's corresponded, and largely been driven by, an atmosphere change in the set-up which has made playing for England a more positive experience.

But there can also be no denying that Southgate has been handed some very favourable draws during his tenure, arguably at three out of his four major tournaments. That's obviously not his fault, but I'd argue we've still failed to beat a world class team at a tournament under him. The Netherlands are good but nothing special, and the Germans were struggling when we beat them at the last Euros. What would our record look like without those favourable draws? It's obviously impossible to tell but it's interesting that Southgate's win rate is actually quite a bit below Capello's, who was handed much tougher draws and his reign is rightly viewed as the dark days.

There are also tactical question marks. It's interesting that most of Europe views Southgate fairly negatively too, so it's not just England fans who have their doubts

For me, Southgate has dragged England into a great place but it feels like there's still so much more potential that could see us become a dominant force in world football for the next decade. Whatever happens in the final, Southgate has provided a great platform for the team to kick on from but I think that will need to happen under new leadership.

That's the spirit, sack off the most successful manager we've ever had because it'll definitely be better with somebody else.

Quoted from Mariner93er

But there can also be no denying that Southgate has been handed some very favourable draws during his tenure, arguably at three out of his four major tournaments. That's obviously not his fault, but I'd argue we've still failed to beat a world class team at a tournament under him. The Netherlands are good but nothing special, and the Germans were struggling when we beat them at the last Euros. What would our record look like without those favourable draws? It's obviously impossible to tell but it's interesting that Southgate's win rate is actually quite a bit below Capello's, who was handed much tougher draws and his reign is rightly viewed as the dark days.

Are we seriously still trying to have this argument? I don’t have the energy to go back further, but if we look at our records at tournaments in the 10 years prior to Southgate’s first in 2018 (in reverse order), we achieved the following:

- Euro 2016 - knocked out in 2nd round by Iceland (ranked 34th)

- World Cup 2014 - bottom of group with 1 point

- Euro 2012 - knocked out on pens in 2nd round by Italy (ranked 12th)

- World Cup 2010 - spanked 4-1 and knocked out in 2nd round by Germany (ranked 6th)

- Euro 2008 - did not qualify

That’s 5 straight tournaments, and we disgraced ourselves to various degrees in all of them. To follow that up with a quarter-final, semi-final and at the very least two finals on the bounce in the following four tournaments is nothing short of remarkable in my eyes. It’s always slightly rankled me that so many people dismiss the win against Germany at Wembley as insignificant, but to do the same now with the Netherlands victory on Wednesday night is just bizarre.

There are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of England fans who were born and died without ever seeing England make a major final, let alone win anything. We are now in our second in three years, with a roughly 50/50 shot at winning the first silverware in many of our lifetimes.

If you can’t give Southgate due credit without somehow having to try and undermine his achievements, at least enjoy the moment. This might feel like a frequent occurrence at the current moment, but it hasn’t been for well over 50 years and may well not be again for the foreseeable future.

Come on England!!

Quoted from Poojah

Are we seriously still trying to have this argument? I don’t have the energy to go back further, but if we look at our records at tournaments in the 10 years prior to Southgate’s first in 2018 (in reverse order), we achieved the following:

- Euro 2016 - knocked out in 2nd round by Iceland (ranked 34th)

- World Cup 2014 - bottom of group with 1 point

- Euro 2012 - knocked out on pens in 2nd round by Italy (ranked 12th)

- World Cup 2010 - spanked 4-1 and knocked out in 2nd round by Germany (ranked 6th)

- Euro 2008 - did not qualify

That’s 5 straight tournaments, and we disgraced ourselves to various degrees in all of them. To follow that up with a quarter-final, semi-final and at the very least two finals on the bounce in the following four tournaments is nothing short of remarkable in my eyes. It’s always slightly rankled me that so many people dismiss the win against Germany at Wembley as insignificant, but to do the same now with the Netherlands victory on Wednesday night is just bizarre.

There are thousands, if not hundreds of hundreds of thousands of England fans who were born and died without ever seeing England make a major final, let alone win anything. We are now in our second in three years, with a roughly 50/50 shot at winning the first silverware in many of our lifetimes.

If you can’t give Southgate due credit without somehow having to try and undermine his achievements, at least enjoy the moment. This might feel like a frequent occurrence at the current moment, but it hasn’t been for well over 50 years and may well not be again for the foreseeable future.

Come on England!!

Don't you find having to deal with the ill thought out cognitive dissonance of some posters is quite energy sapping?

I watched a Kyle Walker interview yesterday and he talked about when he first got picked in 2011 the environment around England was really poor, in his own words "you trained, ate and then went back and sat in your room on your own" and "club rivalries got in the way". There was clearly a lot of things Gareth needed to fix to enable us to be in the place we are now.

I truly don't know what some people expect, all I know is that in lots of cases the expectations of some supporters is unrealistic. Across international and domestic level every successful campaign has a degree of pragmatism attached to it, maybe it's just more evident in a tournament as the games come quickly if you go deep and there's so much hype about things.

This major nation thing is a bit of a cheap shot too, many sides haven't beaten Spain or France in recent years, we may have struggled with Belgium but we've beaten Italy, Croatia and Germany in competitive matches, they may not be as strong as they have been but they're no mugs. Also it's worth noting that both Spain & France have been properly building and progressing their international set ups for decades and they've reaped the benefits.  

In reality it doesn't matter what we think  but what I would say is the players clearly have faith in Gareth and they are much better judges of how good a manager truly is than any of us who post on will ever be.

Oh yeah and one thing that might just shatter some delusions, we have a really good squad but there are better starting 11s than ours in world football.

Quoted from grimsby pete

I was 18 when I watched England win the world cup on our black+white 12ins. Telly.

I think I have suffered enough over the years so an England win to go with towns promotion will go down a treat.

AND

It's possible come on England and you mariners !!

Pete - I was in Italy in 66 and cheered on Nth. Korea to their 1 - 0 win over Italy and was lucky to escape. Just got back home and walked through the front door as the teams were kicking off.  My dad said "Hya " at half time

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Don't you find having to deal with the ill thought out cognitive dissonance of some posters is quite energy sapping?

I watched a Kyle Walker interview yesterday and he talked about when he first got picked in 2011 the environment around England was really poor, in his own words "you trained, ate and then went back and sat in your room on your own" and "club rivalries got in the way". There was clearly a lot of things Gareth needed to fix to enable us to be in the place we are now.

I truly don't know what some people expect, all I know is that in lots of cases the expectations of some supporters is unrealistic. Across international and domestic level every successful campaign has a degree of pragmatism attached to it, maybe it's just more evident in a tournament as the games come quickly if you go deep and there's so much hype about things.

This major nation thing is a bit of a cheap shot too, many sides haven't beaten Spain or France in recent years, we may have struggled with Belgium but we've beaten Italy, Croatia and Germany in competitive matches, they may not be as strong as they have been but they're no mugs. Also it's worth noting that both Spain & France have been properly building and progressing their international set ups for decades and they've reaped the benefits.  

In reality it doesn't matter what we think  but what I would say is the players clearly have faith in Gareth and they are much better judges of how good a manager truly is than any of us who post on will ever be.

Oh yeah and one thing that might just shatter some delusions, we have a really good squad but there are better starting 11s than ours in world football.

Tbf I bet Kyle walker knows a thing a two about frosty atmospheres and all I would say about Southgate is just as they got the winner he was trying to bring on Gallagher and tripper ?? Just couldn’t bring himself to go for it even in the last seconds of the job.

Quoted from dapperz fun pub

Tbf I bet Kyle walker knows a thing a two about frosty atmospheres and all I would say about Southgate is just as they got the winner he was trying to bring on Gallagher and tripper ?? Just couldn’t bring himself to go for it even in the last seconds of the job.

Or he saw we were flagging and needed some energy on to defend to give Palmer, Watkins etc a foundation to attack from or avoid conceding.......but I see your viewpoint ....for me his biggest failing this tournament is the persistence with an underperforming Kane or failing to get Kane to stay up as an outlet.....and also the virtual non use of Gordon.

Quoted from moosey_club

Or he saw we were flagging and needed some energy on to defend to give Palmer, Watkins etc a foundation to attack from or avoid conceding.......but I see your viewpoint ....for me his biggest failing this tournament is the persistence with an underperforming Kane or failing to get Kane to stay up as an outlet.....and also the virtual non use of Gordon.

I don’t want to be over critical of him tonight cos Spain are class act but it still annoys me that we go 1 up against Italy early and then basically sit back for the rest of the game. It wasn’t a vintage Italian side either that was the big chance totally wasted

Quoted from dapperz fun pub

I don’t want to be over critical of him tonight cos Spain are class act but it still annoys me that we go 1 up against Italy early and then basically sit back for the rest of the game. It wasn’t a vintage Italian side either that was the big chance totally wasted

It was and I'm not sure we will get one as good as that  in a long long time .

Quoted from Mappers

It was and I'm not sure we will get one as good as that  in a long long time .

Yep. Both that game and the semi against Croatia in 2018 saw us outplayed in midfield by ageing yet clever players and that's why we lost them both. Until we sort the midfield out, we'll never win anything. The fact that Southgate was suddenly 'experimenting' with TAA in the middle at the start of the tournament shows he was aware where our problems lie, but he didn't come up with a system which could help to overcome the weaknesses.

Quoted from Maringer

Yep. Both that game and the semi against Croatia in 2018 saw us outplayed in midfield by ageing yet clever players and that's why we lost them both. Until we sort the midfield out, we'll never win anything. The fact that Southgate was suddenly 'experimenting' with TAA in the middle at the start of the tournament shows he was aware where our problems lie, but he didn't come up with a system which could help to overcome the weaknesses.

I think Gareth has done a really good job overall but clearly he's been to loyal to a couple of players who are clearly finished at that level or way out of form. One or two may even consider themselves un-droppable which is always dangerous.

It does feel like it's time for a fresh view and an approach that would see one or two new faces in the starting line up and other regular starters having to fight for a place, personally I think that will require a change of manager. Ideally someone who understands and has some experience in international management and tournaments unlike the names that are already doing the rounds.