Labour party rebranding

The public only think they know what they want.

They actually think what they are told to think by very clever persuasion, and the people doing the persuading are the ones that control the means to do it. The ones with the vested interests in keeping the status quo.

Anyone that tries to present a different future is quickly shut down by disinformation and lies. This keeps the great unwashed happy in their ignorance, with low pay, low prospects and no social mobility. Happy and proud to be British, the fools.

Quoted from ginnywings

The public only think they know what they want.

They actually think what they are told to think by very clever persuasion, and the people doing the persuading are the ones that control the means to do it. The ones with the vested interests in keeping the status quo.

Anyone that tries to present a different future is quickly shut down by disinformation and lies. This keeps the great unwashed happy in their ignorance, with low pay, low prospects and no social mobility. Happy and proud to be British, the fools.

To a extent I agree with you. When I was at school there were many pink bits on a map, countries which we controlled. When it suits our politicians they call us Great Britain but with the pink bits gone we are no longer Great. Countries still look up to us as we still the N bomb and many more countries have joined the club.

We have 2 new aircraft carriers which can be sunk with a couple of missiles, total waste of money especially as we don't have the planes. We are told how much govt. (red or blue) spending is good for us. In transport when was the last multi billion infrastructure spent along the east coast. HST goes north west and central.

I could go on and on but at the end of the day all politicians tell us how good we are and treat us like mushrooms

I thought this Steve Bell cartoon was pretty apt:

https://www.theguardian.com/co.....ism-strategy-cartoon

Unfortunately, it seems that Starmer is in search of power for the sake of power but with no overarching aim or discernable target if he was to get it. 'Something a bit better' isn't a proper aim. No real direction to the Labour Party under his leadership as yet which is disappointing but isn't perhaps surprising as he's the candidate of the PLP which is still dominated by those who rose to prominence in the Blair/Brown era. They don't have any new ideas and they don't have the courage or awareness to move on from the centre-leftish nothingness which won't be enough to fix the wrongs inflicted on the country over the past decade. The world has moved on since 1997 and especially since 2010, much for the worse. Speaking of which, I see Gideon 'George' Osborne has decided to become a merchant banker now. Well, he's always been one of those, but now he's making it official. I suppose he became chancellor despite not having the first understanding of macroeconomics (or maybe he just didn't care?), then a newspaper editor without any experience of journalism so not a surprise he's becoming a banker with no knowledge of banking. The wealthy certainly look after their own. His £650k per annum working as an 'advisor' to BlackRock one day a week was small beans. The rich have done exceptionally well thanks to Osborne and now is his time to be properly rewarded.

Now as for Starmer, I'm not saying things wouldn't improve under a putative New Labour Mk. 2 government with him in charge with some mildly socially democratic policies, but that's not saying much! Unfortunately, he's not likely to win power with the establishment against him (as it tends to be against labour - note the small 'l') and without a vision to encourage the membership of the Labour Party to put in the legwork to give him a chance. The fact remains that the electorate disliked Corbyn, but not his moderate socially-democratic policies (which as I've noted many a time wouldn't have been much out of place in a Conservative Party manifesto before the mid-70s), so it seems odd that Starmer has moved so far to the right despite his promises otherwise when he was elected leader of his party.

It leads us to the situation where the Tory government have excrement the bed every other week over the past year with appalling errors made during the pandemic (no, they haven't just been 'following the science' as their various lockdowns have come weeks later than recommended by SAGE plus all the inept cronyism/corruption etc and U-turns a plenty), but he's barely laid a finger on them. Taking apart Johnson at PMQs doesn't count, especially as Johnson has realised he can get away with ignoring tricky questions or simply tell lies in his answers with absolute impunity.

It leads us to the incredible situation where the Tories are ahead in the polls because they actually managed to procure the vaccines (which amazed everybody). This, despite the ongoing shambles in government - it's certainly the least capable cabinet the country has ever had - and the terrible death toll which is pretty much the worst in the world because of the decisions made by the government.

Unfortunately, I think it's probably too late to turn things around, even this far away from the next election so my guess is that we'll have the Tories selling off bits of the country and running everything into the ground for most of the next decade. I'd imagine the Tories will manage to bluff their way past a proper public enquiry into the pandemic, or perhaps kick it into the long grass past the next election so they get away with their mistakes.

Starmer could have done much better and should have done much better, but doesn't have the political nouse or courage to do so. Hopefully, the New Labour coterie stuck 20 years in the past will finally take a back seat after the next defeat and something a bit more, well, left-wing, will be able to take shape. When Labour (or a coalition) get into power, I hope that the first thing they do is bring in a proper electoral system so we'll not be left choosing between two behemoth parties who don't properly represent most of the people in the country. It would be nice to join the grown ups.

Quoted from Maringer

I thought this Steve Bell cartoon was pretty apt:

https://www.theguardian.com/co.....ism-strategy-cartoon

Unfortunately, it seems that Starmer is in search of power for the sake of power but with no overarching aim or discernable target if he was to get it. 'Something a bit better' isn't a proper aim. No real direction to the Labour Party under his leadership as yet which is disappointing but isn't perhaps surprising as he's the candidate of the PLP which is still dominated by those who rose to prominence in the Blair/Brown era. They don't have any new ideas and they don't have the courage or awareness to move on from the centre-leftish nothingness which won't be enough to fix the wrongs inflicted on the country over the past decade. The world has moved on since 1997 and especially since 2010, much for the worse. Speaking of which, I see Gideon 'George' Osborne has decided to become a merchant banker now. Well, he's always been one of those, but now he's making it official. I suppose he became chancellor despite not having the first understanding of macroeconomics (or maybe he just didn't care?), then a newspaper editor without any experience of journalism so not a surprise he's becoming a banker with no knowledge of banking. The wealthy certainly look after their own. His £650k per annum working as an 'advisor' to BlackRock one day a week was small beans. The rich have done exceptionally well thanks to Osborne and now is his time to be properly rewarded.

Now as for Starmer, I'm not saying things wouldn't improve under a putative New Labour Mk. 2 government with him in charge with some mildly socially democratic policies, but that's not saying much! Unfortunately, he's not likely to win power with the establishment against him (as it tends to be against labour - note the small 'l') and without a vision to encourage the membership of the Labour Party to put in the legwork to give him a chance. The fact remains that the electorate disliked Corbyn, but not his moderate socially-democratic policies (which as I've noted many a time wouldn't have been much out of place in a Conservative Party manifesto before the mid-70s), so it seems odd that Starmer has moved so far to the right despite his promises otherwise when he was elected leader of his party.

It leads us to the situation where the Tory government have excrement the bed every other week over the past year with appalling errors made during the pandemic (no, they haven't just been 'following the science' as their various lockdowns have come weeks later than recommended by SAGE plus all the inept cronyism/corruption etc and U-turns a plenty), but he's barely laid a finger on them. Taking apart Johnson at PMQs doesn't count, especially as Johnson has realised he can get away with ignoring tricky questions or simply tell lies in his answers with absolute impunity.

It leads us to the incredible situation where the Tories are ahead in the polls because they actually managed to procure the vaccines (which amazed everybody). This, despite the ongoing shambles in government - it's certainly the least capable cabinet the country has ever had - and the terrible death toll which is pretty much the worst in the world because of the decisions made by the government.

Unfortunately, I think it's probably too late to turn things around, even this far away from the next election so my guess is that we'll have the Tories selling off bits of the country and running everything into the ground for most of the next decade. I'd imagine the Tories will manage to bluff their way past a proper public enquiry into the pandemic, or perhaps kick it into the long grass past the next election so they get away with their mistakes.

Starmer could have done much better and should have done much better, but doesn't have the political nouse or courage to do so. Hopefully, the New Labour coterie stuck 20 years in the past will finally take a back seat after the next defeat and something a bit more, well, left-wing, will be able to take shape. When Labour (or a coalition) get into power, I hope that the first thing they do is bring in a proper electoral system so we'll not be left choosing between two behemoth parties who don't properly represent most of the people in the country. It would be nice to join the grown ups.

Couldn't have put it any better.  If I may add to it in saying that we are led to believe that we have democratic parliament that speak for the people. We do have when a govt. majority is about 15 or less. The govt. have to listen to the people or they might lose a vote. However any majority above say20 means, unless they unleash the whips, the govt of the day will win a vote.

In other words any govt. can do what they like regardless of what we think or want. We cease to being a democratically run country in favour of being a dictatorship. Thatcher and Blair style.

Quoted from Maringer

I thought this Steve Bell cartoon was pretty apt:

https://www.theguardian.com/co.....ism-strategy-cartoon

Unfortunately, it seems that Starmer is in search of power for the sake of power but with no overarching aim or discernable target if he was to get it. 'Something a bit better' isn't a proper aim. No real direction to the Labour Party under his leadership as yet which is disappointing but isn't perhaps surprising as he's the candidate of the PLP which is still dominated by those who rose to prominence in the Blair/Brown era. They don't have any new ideas and they don't have the courage or awareness to move on from the centre-leftish nothingness which won't be enough to fix the wrongs inflicted on the country over the past decade. The world has moved on since 1997 and especially since 2010, much for the worse. Speaking of which, I see Gideon 'George' Osborne has decided to become a merchant banker now. Well, he's always been one of those, but now he's making it official. I suppose he became chancellor despite not having the first understanding of macroeconomics (or maybe he just didn't care?), then a newspaper editor without any experience of journalism so not a surprise he's becoming a banker with no knowledge of banking. The wealthy certainly look after their own. His £650k per annum working as an 'advisor' to BlackRock one day a week was small beans. The rich have done exceptionally well thanks to Osborne and now is his time to be properly rewarded.

Now as for Starmer, I'm not saying things wouldn't improve under a putative New Labour Mk. 2 government with him in charge with some mildly socially democratic policies, but that's not saying much! Unfortunately, he's not likely to win power with the establishment against him (as it tends to be against labour - note the small 'l') and without a vision to encourage the membership of the Labour Party to put in the legwork to give him a chance. The fact remains that the electorate disliked Corbyn, but not his moderate socially-democratic policies (which as I've noted many a time wouldn't have been much out of place in a Conservative Party manifesto before the mid-70s), so it seems odd that Starmer has moved so far to the right despite his promises otherwise when he was elected leader of his party.

It leads us to the situation where the Tory government have excrement the bed every other week over the past year with appalling errors made during the pandemic (no, they haven't just been 'following the science' as their various lockdowns have come weeks later than recommended by SAGE plus all the inept cronyism/corruption etc and U-turns a plenty), but he's barely laid a finger on them. Taking apart Johnson at PMQs doesn't count, especially as Johnson has realised he can get away with ignoring tricky questions or simply tell lies in his answers with absolute impunity.

It leads us to the incredible situation where the Tories are ahead in the polls because they actually managed to procure the vaccines (which amazed everybody). This, despite the ongoing shambles in government - it's certainly the least capable cabinet the country has ever had - and the terrible death toll which is pretty much the worst in the world because of the decisions made by the government.

Unfortunately, I think it's probably too late to turn things around, even this far away from the next election so my guess is that we'll have the Tories selling off bits of the country and running everything into the ground for most of the next decade. I'd imagine the Tories will manage to bluff their way past a proper public enquiry into the pandemic, or perhaps kick it into the long grass past the next election so they get away with their mistakes.

Starmer could have done much better and should have done much better, but doesn't have the political nouse or courage to do so. Hopefully, the New Labour coterie stuck 20 years in the past will finally take a back seat after the next defeat and something a bit more, well, left-wing, will be able to take shape. When Labour (or a coalition) get into power, I hope that the first thing they do is bring in a proper electoral system so we'll not be left choosing between two behemoth parties who don't properly represent most of the people in the country. It would be nice to join the grown ups.

Quoted from Maringer

I thought this Steve Bell cartoon was pretty apt:

https://www.theguardian.com/co.....ism-strategy-cartoon

Unfortunately, it seems that Starmer is in search of power for the sake of power but with no overarching aim or discernable target if he was to get it. 'Something a bit better' isn't a proper aim. No real direction to the Labour Party under his leadership as yet which is disappointing but isn't perhaps surprising as he's the candidate of the PLP which is still dominated by those who rose to prominence in the Blair/Brown era. They don't have any new ideas and they don't have the courage or awareness to move on from the centre-leftish nothingness which won't be enough to fix the wrongs inflicted on the country over the past decade. The world has moved on since 1997 and especially since 2010, much for the worse. Speaking of which, I see Gideon 'George' Osborne has decided to become a merchant banker now. Well, he's always been one of those, but now he's making it official. I suppose he became chancellor despite not having the first understanding of macroeconomics (or maybe he just didn't care?), then a newspaper editor without any experience of journalism so not a surprise he's becoming a banker with no knowledge of banking. The wealthy certainly look after their own. His £650k per annum working as an 'advisor' to BlackRock one day a week was small beans. The rich have done exceptionally well thanks to Osborne and now is his time to be properly rewarded.

Now as for Starmer, I'm not saying things wouldn't improve under a putative New Labour Mk. 2 government with him in charge with some mildly socially democratic policies, but that's not saying much! Unfortunately, he's not likely to win power with the establishment against him (as it tends to be against labour - note the small 'l') and without a vision to encourage the membership of the Labour Party to put in the legwork to give him a chance. The fact remains that the electorate disliked Corbyn, but not his moderate socially-democratic policies (which as I've noted many a time wouldn't have been much out of place in a Conservative Party manifesto before the mid-70s), so it seems odd that Starmer has moved so far to the right despite his promises otherwise when he was elected leader of his party.

It leads us to the situation where the Tory government have excrement the bed every other week over the past year with appalling errors made during the pandemic (no, they haven't just been 'following the science' as their various lockdowns have come weeks later than recommended by SAGE plus all the inept cronyism/corruption etc and U-turns a plenty), but he's barely laid a finger on them. Taking apart Johnson at PMQs doesn't count, especially as Johnson has realised he can get away with ignoring tricky questions or simply tell lies in his answers with absolute impunity.

It leads us to the incredible situation where the Tories are ahead in the polls because they actually managed to procure the vaccines (which amazed everybody). This, despite the ongoing shambles in government - it's certainly the least capable cabinet the country has ever had - and the terrible death toll which is pretty much the worst in the world because of the decisions made by the government.

Unfortunately, I think it's probably too late to turn things around, even this far away from the next election so my guess is that we'll have the Tories selling off bits of the country and running everything into the ground for most of the next decade. I'd imagine the Tories will manage to bluff their way past a proper public enquiry into the pandemic, or perhaps kick it into the long grass past the next election so they get away with their mistakes.

Starmer could have done much better and should have done much better, but doesn't have the political nouse or courage to do so. Hopefully, the New Labour coterie stuck 20 years in the past will finally take a back seat after the next defeat and something a bit more, well, left-wing, will be able to take shape. When Labour (or a coalition) get into power, I hope that the first thing they do is bring in a proper electoral system so we'll not be left choosing between two behemoth parties who don't properly represent most of the people in the country. It would be nice to join the grown ups.

Absolutely spot-on Maringer, a really good summing-up.

The state of Labour frustrates the hell out of me at the moment. I'm a Labour member, and can't be doing with the ridiculous partisanship over factions and hero-worshipping: the party is bigger than Corbyn or Starmer (or so it should be). Corbyn was rejected whole-sale by the electorate, and as much as Corbyn stans might cry 'the media!', sadly a hostile media is part of the job description of being a Labour leader - remember the Miliband bacon sarnie, and the attacks on Ralph Miliband 'hating Britain'?. He was politically naïve. He didn't use his allies in the media well enough, he thought he could get in without 'playing the game' (you've got the win the game to then change it) and he allowed people to speak in his ear about things where his judgement may have been better if he has stayed strong (Brexit stance, being a prime example). His team also seemingly mistook a surge in membership and packing student unions as being successful: but in FPTP voting, the people who chanted his name at rallies were in no way the people we needed to engage.

After leading us to our worst election defeat in 80+ years, it frustrates me that so much is still about him - his ego has got the better of him. If you lose an election and resign, the decent thing to do is be a quite and humble backbencher for a while. Miliband did, Brown did, even Theresa May did. In fact, the only person I can think who had the ego to pop-up and make himself still relevant where he wasn't, was Blair (I know he didn't lose an election, he just jumped ship before hand). And if Starmer loses and election, I'd expect him to pipe the intercourse down and let someone else step up also.

Now, onto Starmer. He wasn't my choice as leader, but just as I supported Corbyn with my misgivings, I gave Starmer a chance also (I don't by into this idea that you're in one camp or the other). But for all your points you've just made, I am losing all patience. I just don't know what he stands for, and I get that he is being cautious to not give 'open goals' to the press etc. - but you still have to have an ideology.

The things is, there's 4.2 million kids living in poverty in the UK. It's flipping appalling, and I would take a centre-left government as a step in the right direction, rest assured I'd prefer a much more left government, and would pressure a Labour government to move to the left - but if the choice is a right-wing Tory govt or a centre, centre-left Labour govt, pragmatically I would take the latter.

But I can't see it happening, I don't think Starmer is able to inspire, he is not leading us anywhere. I wouldn't know what he stands for and I'm a party member! I know that he is tightening the defences, but he has no attack (Arteta's first year at Arsenal is the best analogy I've heard), and that just makes us bland, uninspiring and a bit of a nothing-ness. It's also, at this point, not about polls - the election is too far off. It's important that the Government is properly held to account, that the messages are strong because that's what people need to hear - someone standing up for public services, the NHS, social care, keyworkers, the fact that 50,000+ people have been fined for breaking lockdown rules yet not one employer has been fined for unsafe practice (all the companies demanding their employees come into the office cos they aren't deemed quite as productive working at home with kids...).

If Labour do not back constitutional reform (including PR) then my membership would be cancelled. Meaningful devolution to regional assemblies is something huge. How the Tory government have the gall to profess they are the party of 'levelling up' - and why Labour haven't made it their mission to advocate for the North, the midlands... support was taken for granted. The North still votes Labour (yes some traditional seats went blue, but there are still many more Labour constituencies in the North than South, bar London) however I worry that if Labour don't inspire people with strong messages that more seats will go.

On the flag-waving stuff, it misses the point. I don't mind what I'd call 'progressive patriotism', but to me that's talking about 'The people of Britain deserve better than [x]' and 'it's not patriotic to dodge taxes and not contribute to the services which help us all' - 'noone left behind is a fundamental value of people in the UK, our Government is not recognising that value' etc.
When that's interpreted sticking a few jingoistic Union Jacks about it comes across as patronising and widely misinterpreting the image problem Labour has.

Fascinating debate, and to throw a further slant on things, nobody appears to have commented on the wholesale shift of Scotland from Labour to SNP over the last 15 years. To me, it appears that Labour have no strategy to regain votes in Scotland, and until they do so, I can’t see them ever being able to collect enough votes in England or Wales to rule through a majority.

Scotland has gone. The major English political parties are finished there - Scottish Labour have been even more incompetent than the English Labour Party for many years and the Tories have had nothing more tja  a toe hold North of the border for many years.

The SNP will continue to all but sweep the board at elections for as long as it takes for the Scots to gain independence. Just how much Sturgeon and her clique are keen on this remains to be seen, however. They've developed a political class much like the New Labour 'establishment' and the way they've attempted to set up Salmond is shocking. Not just because it has been so brazen but also because it has been so incompetent and it is so obvious they are trying to cover their arses. Due to the foibles of the way the Scottish legal process works, the SNP leadership (Sturgeon's husband is CEO of the party, incidentally), has got complete control of the legal process. They tried to set up Salmond with spurious claims of sexual assault and now the judiciary is refusing to call incriminatory information as evidence in their judicial review. Wouldn't surprise me to see Sturgeon defenestrated at some point, but I think the momentum towards independence is unstoppable.

Quoted from Maringer

Scotland has gone.

I think the momentum towards independence is unstoppable.

Perhaps this island needs to be 3 independent countries again. N Ireland and Ireland are headed towards unification which will return NI to the EU. Scotland wants to be in the EU. 70% of Scots voted AGAINST leaving. Wales is also looking more and more to independence.

Leave England to get on with what England wants, and that appears to be a tax haven for very rich Tories, a Pay as you Go Health system, and generally a belief that it can survive on it's own and with little interaction with anybody else.

A bit like North Korea I suppose.

Firstly as you know I'm not red or blue and have an axe to grind at all parties about most things.

As this thread is about the rebranding of labour I wondered about this I have just read in the Express, part of the Reach group which includes the Mirror.

https://www.express.co.uk/news.....ty-socialist-lawyers