Investment of faith in development

I’ve been really encouraged of late by some of the comments I’ve read regarding the desire of many to support MJ and goodwill shown towards him by the supporters.

We see time and again, that panic reactions and changing managers on a whim does not always lead to success, often leading to longer term failings.

It’s refreshing to see the investment in fath in development that our supporters are making in MJ. By this I mean an empathy and appreciation of where he is in his own development as a new football manager and developing coach.

Grimsby Town just happens to be his vehicle for learning. His journey has been an interesting one, as both a coach and a manager, from Academy roles to getting an opportunity in Sweden and now with us.

Keeping us up was essentially his first test, which then gave him the opportunity to try and build something. But keep remembering guys, this is a learners journey. He will make mistakes, it will be difficult at times.

But I’d sooner enjoy watching MJ develop, including all of twists and turns, than continue in building a catalogue of failed appointments with so-called experienced gaffers and journeymen. I loved watching Paul Hurst develop into management, and I want to enjoy watching MJ on his journey too.

Keep investing your faith in the development of this young manager/coach please. It will be a rollercoaster for a good while whilst he learns. But learn and develop he will.

It's all well and good investing in faith. Belief comes from investing in the squad/budget and that makes the statement of what direction we want to go in.

Quoted from 120790

I’ve been really encouraged of late by some of the comments I’ve read regarding the desire of many to support MJ and goodwill shown towards him by the supporters.

We see time and again, that panic reactions and changing managers on a whim does not always lead to success, often leading to longer term failings.

It’s refreshing to see the investment in fath in development that our supporters are making in MJ. By this I mean an empathy and appreciation of where he is in his own development as a new football manager and developing coach.

Grimsby Town just happens to be his vehicle for learning. His journey has been an interesting one, as both a coach and a manager, from Academy roles to getting an opportunity in Sweden and now with us.

Keeping us up was essentially his first test, which then gave him the opportunity to try and build something. But keep remembering guys, this is a learners journey. He will make mistakes, it will be difficult at times.

But I’d sooner enjoy watching MJ develop, including all of twists and turns, than continue in building a catalogue of failed appointments with so-called experienced gaffers and journeymen. I loved watching Paul Hurst develop into management, and I want to enjoy watching MJ on his journey too.

Keep investing your faith in the development of this young manager/coach please. It will be a rollercoaster for a good while whilst he learns. But learn and develop he will.

What a patronising load of old cobblers. I am as keen as you to see Jolley be a success but for one reason only - if he succeeds then the club I’ve supported for 60 years also succeeds. That’s his job, that is what he gets paid for. GTFC is not some nice twee academy for managers to make mistakes and the fans to go “oh good show, never mind,  he’s still learning.” It is a professional football club that ought to be better financed and managed than it has been.

Jolley’s strength is managing young players, so no coincidence that this week we have had more success with a young side even though it has been forced on the manager through injuries. The test of course is what he does when those absentees are fit again. I hope he sticks with a winning side and I would be delighted to see young Rose get more game time. If he gets a nucleus of good young players to grow together then fair enough especially if the odd local youngster makes it.

But do I want to stick around the nether regions of L2 just to see a manager making a “journey” or whatever that is supposed to mean? No I definitely do not. We waited years for Hurst to make his “journey” and that was bad enough. If there was any “journey” there it was the fans that were taken for a long long ride.  No, Jolley’s door has “ manager “ written on it and that means do the job today, not tomorrow, next week or next year. He’s had his learning curve now and it is up to him to show he has the wherewithal. Everyone makes mistakes but in a professional game, age and experience cannot be used as excuses.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

What a patronising load of old cobblers. I am as keen as you to see Jolley be a success but for one reason only - if he succeeds then the club I’ve supported for 60 years also succeeds. That’s his job, that is what he gets paid for. GTFC is not some nice twee academy for managers to make mistakes and the fans to go “oh good show, never mind,  he’s still learning.” It is a professional football club that ought to be better financed and managed than it has been.

Jolley’s strength is managing young players, so no coincidence that this week we have had more success with a young side even though it has been forced on the manager through injuries. The test of course is what he does when those absentees are fit again. I hope he sticks with a winning side and I would be delighted to see young Rose get more game time. If he gets a nucleus of good young players to grow together then fair enough especially if the odd local youngster makes it.

But do I want to stick around the nether regions of L2 just to see a manager making a “journey” or whatever that is supposed to mean? No I definitely do not. We waited years for Hurst to make his “journey” and that was bad enough. If there was any “journey” there it was the fans that were taken for a long long ride.  No, Jolley’s door has “ manager “ written on it and that means do the job today, not tomorrow, next week or next year. He’s had his learning curve now and it is up to him to show he has the wherewithal. Everyone makes mistakes but in a professional game, age and experience cannot be used as excuses.

Absolutely bob-on.

I agree with the OP, but if he gets even a small measure of success with us, then he'll clear off somewhere else. The only way to stop this is a massive investment in the club infrastructure, as we found to our cost with Paul Hurst.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

What a patronising load of old cobblers. I am as keen as you to see Jolley be a success but for one reason only - if he succeeds then the club I’ve supported for 60 years also succeeds. That’s his job, that is what he gets paid for. GTFC is not some nice twee academy for managers to make mistakes and the fans to go “oh good show, never mind,  he’s still learning.” It is a professional football club that ought to be better financed and managed than it has been.

Jolley’s strength is managing young players, so no coincidence that this week we have had more success with a young side even though it has been forced on the manager through injuries. The test of course is what he does when those absentees are fit again. I hope he sticks with a winning side and I would be delighted to see young Rose get more game time. If he gets a nucleus of good young players to grow together then fair enough especially if the odd local youngster makes it.

But do I want to stick around the nether regions of L2 just to see a manager making a “journey” or whatever that is supposed to mean? No I definitely do not. We waited years for Hurst to make his “journey” and that was bad enough. If there was any “journey” there it was the fans that were taken for a long long ride.  No, Jolley’s door has “ manager “ written on it and that means do the job today, not tomorrow, next week or next year. He’s had his learning curve now and it is up to him to show he has the wherewithal. Everyone makes mistakes but in a professional game, age and experience cannot be used as excuses.

You make some fair points TRRFC, but I think there's a balance to be found between your post and Ascend's.

The bit I've put in bold above is what I'd not so much disagree with, but look at differently (or does that mean the same thing?).

Anyway, my point is, yes he has to do the job today, but to say "not tomorrow, next week or next year" would be him being negligent in his job. Doing the job for "today" and for "tomorrow" are not mutually exclusive things. As always, it's about finding the right balance. I'm sure you're not saying he shouldn't TRRFC, but he should absolutely have a plan for the rest of the season, for the next 2 transfer windows, and for next season. Having a serious and achievable mid-term and long-term plan is what we've probably missed. Probably from boardroom and management. So full credit to MJ for looking to implement such a thing into the evolution of the first team. Of course he shouldn't forget the here and now, and I really doubt he has been doing.

I'd also think he will, as will any Coach/Manager, be always learning on the job, whether you're at the stage of MJ's career now, 1 year into Management, or whether you're Maurizio Sarri and been managing for 28 years. If you're not open minded and still learning from what yourself and others do, you'll get left behind as football evolves and goes through its cycles.

Quoted from Tommy

You make some fair points TRRFC, but I think there's a balance to be found between your post and Ascend's.

The bit I've put in bold above is what I'd not so much disagree with, but look at differently (or does that mean the same thing?).

Anyway, my point is, yes he has to do the job today, but to say "not tomorrow, next week or next year" would be him being negligent in his job. Doing the job for "today" and for "tomorrow" are not mutually exclusive things. As always, it's about finding the right balance. I'm sure you're not saying he shouldn't TRRFC, but he should absolutely have a plan for the rest of the season, for the next 2 transfer windows, and for next season. Having a serious and achievable mid-term and long-term plan is what we've probably missed. Probably from boardroom and management. So full credit to MJ for looking to implement such a thing into the evolution of the first team. Of course he shouldn't forget the here and now, and I really doubt he has been doing.

I'd also think he will, as will any Coach/Manager, be always learning on the job, whether you're at the stage of MJ's career now, 1 year into Management, or whether you're Maurizio Sarri and been managing for 28 years. If you're not open minded and still learning from what yourself and others do, you'll get left behind as football evolves and goes through its cycles.

Well, yes. Life is a learning process, we all have to accept that as we would all expect any manager to have some notion of future development. But that is not my point, Tommy. People are generally appointed to jobs because they are thought to be qualified to do them from Day One. If Thierry Henri and John Terry get the Aston Villa job their fans will not be thinking about long term planning, they will be expecting at the very least a play-off place this year. Then they will think of the next short term aim and so on. When Dave Booth was appointed Grimsby manager as Kerr got the push, he was expected to save the club from relegation. So was Neil Woods after Newell. It may have been hoped they could later push on to higher things but that was not what supporters were bothered about.

So of course we do expect some planning and personal development but we mainly expect to see things happening on the park ...... now. If they don’t then no amount of long term aims is going to help. Football is like that because it is a finite competitive business. The same rules apply to all. A club is not like a company which can change marketing strategies and diversify its products. It is not even like amateur or youth football which also have entirely different aims to a professional club. We have to compete with other clubs in the here and now, if one club goes up, another comes down as we know only too well.  

The manager is the key figure. If he thinks we can “consolidate”  while he gets the hang of the job then we will not stand still, we will go backwards. I am sure Jolley is aware of this. One lesson he has said he learned after all the summer hype about his achievements was not to allow expectations to get too high. He will have learned another during that 6 game spell too - you are only as good as your last game.

One other point on this, not about Jolley particularly though. The obsession of the owner with long term issues in recent years, notably the new ground, has in fact cost the club dearly because focus on the short term and playing performance on the pitch was lost and valuable resources squandered that could have been spent on the team. With a bit more concern about today, tomorrow might have taken care of itself.

This is the big dichotomy with GTFC though, isn't it?

Every manager we appoint is backed by the fans to a large extent (Slade may have been an exception) and we all invest faith in them at that point. We all 'invested' in Newell, Woods, Hurst, Hurst & Scott etc. but after a period of time you question their ability. After six consecutive defeats, the same doubts emerged regarding MJ.

The dichotomy is that we have no faith in the club - it has been eroded away by years of decline - so there is always a nagging doubt in a fan's mind that we will continue to follow the same routine of appointment, hope, failure, sacking. I would question the original poster as to how many defeats would he have been prepared to watch before questioning his faith in MJ's development?

I'd really like to know what our comparative budget is to put Jolley's task in some context.

Quoted from chaos33

I'd really like to know what our comparative budget is to put Jolley's task in some context.

I doubt anybody knows that. Most clubs don't disclose their budget. But that's not really the right question, my question is, how can the budget be greater when it is well balanced vs income right now?

Short of relocating or a huge investment in BP, I don't see many opportunities to expand our revenue streams other than more fans through the gate. The biggest factor of fans through the gate is whether we are winning or not.

Good post, and i’ll try and keep my GTFC PTSD under wraps in future

Quoted from pen penfras

I doubt anybody knows that. Most clubs don't disclose their budget. But that's not really the right question, my question is, how can the budget be greater when it is well balanced vs income right now?

Short of relocating or a huge investment in BP, I don't see many opportunities to expand our revenue streams other than more fans through the gate. The biggest factor of fans through the gate is whether we are winning or not.

No, the biggest factor is whether the public have any belief left in GTFC. If they did the ground zero for our core support would be larger and the fluctuations due to whether we won games or not would be on top of a higher base figure.

A Football League club's marketing department not being able to get every player sponsored for the season is a joke. Looked at a video of a Cleethorpes Town game this week. Their pitch is surrounded fully by advertising hoardings, everything else is sponsored and by the looks of it the food they offer is far superior to the dreadful fayre at GTFC. But then again, they've got a huge body of like-minded people putting into place fresh ideas. And then Lincoln. Other than the Co-op Stand, their stadium is as bad as ours, they've attracted new investment and board members, had a similar FA Cup windfall amount as the money we got for Bogle, yet they seemed to have been able to galvanise themselves well and have a much larger playing budget.

So there are other methods in creating larger revenue streams, but we just keep on doing the same thing year after year, standing still while the football world moves forward including a club that's only one mile down the road..

What you've written Pen Penfras is just another version of "We do our PR on the pitch"

As I posted on the other thread;

"Agree, that I for one dont want Fenty increasing his loans in any shape or form BUT I maintain that with proper engagement with the community the budget could be bigger, much bigger.

The fact is there is no encouragement for season ticket purchases, no genuine attempt to involve the business community, no clear plan to get buy-in from all elements of the community.

There are ways of increasing income other than Mr Fenty lending the club money"

Quoted from Cloudy

As I posted on the other thread;

"Agree, that I for one dont want Fenty increasing his loans in any shape or form BUT I maintain that with proper engagement with the community the budget could be bigger, much bigger.

The fact is there is no encouragement for season ticket purchases, no genuine attempt to involve the business community, no clear plan to get buy-in from all elements of the community.

There are ways of increasing income other than Mr Fenty lending the club money"

I bought my season ticket so I could get a few games for free  

Quoted from Bigdog

No, the biggest factor is whether the public have any belief left in GTFC. If they did the ground zero for our core support would be larger and the fluctuations due to whether we won games or not would be on top of a higher base figure.

A Football League club's marketing department not being able to get every player sponsored for the season is a joke. Looked at a video of a Cleethorpes Town game this week. Their pitch is surrounded fully by advertising hoardings, everything else is sponsored and by the looks of it the food they offer is far superior to the dreadful fayre at GTFC. But then again, they've got a huge body of like-minded people putting into place fresh ideas. And then Lincoln. Other than the Co-op Stand, their stadium is as bad as ours, they've attracted new investment and board members, had a similar FA Cup windfall amount as the money we got for Bogle, yet they seemed to have been able to galvanise themselves well and have a much larger playing budget.

So there are other methods in creating larger revenue streams, but we just keep on doing the same thing year after year, standing still while the football world moves forward including a club that's only one mile down the road..

What you've written Pen Penfras is just another version of "We do our PR on the pitch"

I'm not saying that there isn't more that can be done and should be done. I just don't believe that it will be a significant enough number to put more than maybe a couple of hundred on the gate. And even still, the people that need special reasons to come won't stick around through losing 6 in a row.

You talk about Lincoln, but it's not like people bought into success at Lincoln and then they built on that. They had "football success" and then the people turned up. Had we romped the league and got a great cup run when in the national league, then we'd have got a better turnout for that and the next season. You talk about belief in GTFC, but that belief is based on what happens on the pitch. If we're winning, nobody gives a crap about what the board have to say, and they don't need to say anything.

I can't think of a single example that works in the order you're suggesting where a club does something other than winning games to get fans through the gates and then success takes off from there. Maybe you can count some of the clubs who got new stadiums, but most of those the numbers soon dropped if they weren't winning.

If we put a winning run together the gates will increase and therefore our budget. If we don't win matches the gates will not increase no matter what we do outside.

Quoted from pen penfras

I'm not saying that there isn't more that can be done and should be done. I just don't believe that it will be a significant enough number to put more than maybe a couple of hundred on the gate. And even still, the people that need special reasons to come won't stick around through losing 6 in a row.

You talk about Lincoln, but it's not like people bought into success at Lincoln and then they built on that. They had "football success" and then the people turned up. Had we romped the league and got a great cup run when in the national league, then we'd have got a better turnout for that and the next season. You talk about belief in GTFC, but that belief is based on what happens on the pitch. If we're winning, nobody gives a crap about what the board have to say, and they don't need to say anything.

I can't think of a single example that works in the order you're suggesting where a club does something other than winning games to get fans through the gates and then success takes off from there. Maybe you can count some of the clubs who got new stadiums, but most of those the numbers soon dropped if they weren't winning.

Bradford..

Quoted from golfer

If we put a winning run together the gates will increase and therefore our budget. If we don't win matches the gates will not increase no matter what we do outside.

Precisely. The obsession with the long term keeps obscuring the future. If the club had stopped this preoccupation with long term planning and invested in what was happening on the pitch, the results would have brought in the crowds, the crowds would have made the case for the new stadium. Everything went @rse about face but in football you cannot make progress that way. Building things slowly is a very dangerous game, it only takes one slip and you are back on the naughty step.

Hurst was given an age to get promotion, he did it but where was the momentum when we arrived in L2? The fans were buzzing, we had just had Op. Prom., we were ready for lift off. What did we get? Parkway, Parkway, Parkway ........ when it should have been L1, L1, L1 ....

I think there must be people at this club who are terrified by the prospect of success!

The one decision Hurst made that I sympathised with was his leaving, he is a professional and he just knew it was going to be more of the same and probably a fight against relegation followed by the sack. So he got out from underneath while he could. And still we have people talking about the long term, letting managers develop on a journey! Absolute bloody waste of time doing that when we are floundering around and behaving like a conference club. I don’t object to the club having a five year plan, just as long as it includes 2 quick promotions. Otherwise our “journey” will be mainly in reverse gear.

Quoted from Bigdog

Bradford..

Probably not the best time to use them as an example tbh.

Quoted from pen penfras

I'm not saying that there isn't more that can be done and should be done. I just don't believe that it will be a significant enough number to put more than maybe a couple of hundred on the gate. And even still, the people that need special reasons to come won't stick around through losing 6 in a row.

You talk about Lincoln, but it's not like people bought into success at Lincoln and then they built on that. They had "football success" and then the people turned up. Had we romped the league and got a great cup run when in the national league, then we'd have got a better turnout for that and the next season. You talk about belief in GTFC, but that belief is based on what happens on the pitch. If we're winning, nobody gives a crap about what the board have to say, and they don't need to say anything.

I can't think of a single example that works in the order you're suggesting where a club does something other than winning games to get fans through the gates and then success takes off from there. Maybe you can count some of the clubs who got new stadiums, but most of those the numbers soon dropped if they weren't winning.

In case you've forgotten, in only 1 season in the last 15 have we had a GTFC team in the top half of a Football League table so that's probably why we hang on the board's every word.

Any appointment is a leap of faith and a gamble
IMO if a club appoints someone like MJ - young, raw, inexperienced - then it would be stupid not to give him time to 'develop' and gain experience in the cauldron of league football

If you are not prepared to do that then just pick the next one off the rank and move on...

Pleased to see Hurst has had a kicking again from some quarters - that awful manager now plying his trade in the Championship

And all he did was get promotion (one automatic spot) and cup his ear.... bless....

Quoted from devs

Any appointment is a leap of faith and a gamble
IMO if a club appoints someone like MJ - young, raw, inexperienced - then it would be stupid not to give him time to 'develop' and gain experience in the cauldron of league football

If you are not prepared to do that then just pick the next one off the rank and move on...

Pleased to see Hurst has had a kicking again from some quarters - that awful manager now plying his trade in the Championship

And all he did was get promotion (one automatic spot) and cup his ear.... bless....

How long?

We must have 500 "experienced " managers on the Fishy who wouldn't last 5 minutes in the real world .

Quoted from golfer

We must have 500 "experienced " managers on the Fishy who wouldn't last 5 minutes in the real world .

What flavour are your windows

[img]https://i.imgur.com/E7qbRJ0.gif[/img]

Quoted from golfer

We must have 500 "experienced " managers on the Fishy who wouldn't last 5 minutes in the real world .

Ooh,a lesson in realism from the nuttiest fruit loop on the fishy....

Quoted from chaos33

Ooh,a lesson in realism from the nuttiest fruit loop on the fishy....

Ah, so that's where getyournumberswrong has disappeared to. He's hacked chaos' account.