Observations for consideration

Having watched all the Town games so far this season may I express my views of a few points which I consider need some thought.
1) Why, oh why, do we need all eleven players in our 18 yard box when we concede a corner or free kick ?
This one really messes with my head !! All we are doing is inviting the oposing team to put ten of their players in and around the box, so if we clear the first header or block the first shot we automatically give them the ball back in a very dangerous area if we dont launch it up the field or find touch. Surely if we leave two fast lads on the half way line, on opposite wings, they would have to send back at least three players to counter our out-ball.We ride our luck so many times in a match with a ball like a baggotelle in our box.
2) Why do we tinker with the team selection so much ? I dont have a problem with "blooding the youngsters and fringe players" in cup games, but are we really that scared of the opposition that we need wholesale changes all the time ? If someone is injured, suspended or has a loss of form, well, fair enough, make a change. But I am a big believer in playing your best eleven each week. Stop worrying about the opposition, and let them worry about us.
3) What happened to using two wingers, or raiding wing backs ? We launch the ball up to Hanson's head all the time, he flicks it on, and rarely do we have anyone playing off him to take advantage of these flicks. If we could get down each wing to the dead ball line and put crosses into the box, Hanson would be absolutely devestating with his heading ability and strength.
4) Leadership. Now I love Macca to the moon and back, but I fail to see how he can captain a team whilst playing in goal. Make him the Club Captain and ambassador of the club, but on the pitch surely your captain needs to be in the midfield, where he can be vocal and all the players can hear him. He will be ideally placed to get the refferees ear if there are any contentious issues, without having to run half the length of the pitch. Think back to Paul Groves for example.
I believe that we have a squad which is capable of a play off finish, if they are firing on all cylinders. I think some of them are a bit dissillusioned and have lost their way. Can we not just pick a style of play, and make sure all the players understand it and stick with it ?
All opinions welcolme.
See you all at Plymouth.
UTM

Absolutely spot on with everything you say Doug.It's what everyone is saying where I sit. Slade was slated for playing in exactly the same way. I think that Jolley forgets one vital thing in his approach to home games, namely that football is an entertainment, and defending at home and trying to catch the opposition on the break, without any pace, is boring to watch. Town fans want to be entertained with free flowing football and goals. Boring football only drives the fans away. Nobody wants to see mediocre, we want to be entertained, end of. I find myself now going out of duty, and because I have a season ticket, and not because I am excited about the football I am going to watch.

Many teams bring all 11 players back for set pieces, it basically crowds the box and makes it difficult for attackers to get a free run to win the header, there’s also more bodies in the way if a ball drops in the area for a shot after the initial cross. I suppose you’d have to look at the stats of goals conceded from these situations to know if it’s justified or not and I’m sure the management team will have done this.

Team selection is a tricky one, and I get what you’re saying. If you look at the stereotypical successful teams they’ve had almost the same 11 week in week out. We’ve had our share of injuries though, and when you’re not winning games, you have to try and change it. Yeah I guess people will reflect back on the Exeter result and say why not stick with that team, and maybe they’re right. I’m not sure I know what our best 11 is or in what system, and I’m sure there’d be numerous different ones if everyone on here picked their team, maybe Michael Jolley is having the same dilemma.

I do agree about the wingers, nothing better in my opinion than a winger beating his man to the byline, whipping a cross in and a striker scoring with a bullet header. We’ve got the players to do this as well, with Max Wright when he’s back fit, like an old fashioned traditional winger, and James Hanson who is statistically proven to be one of the best headers of a ball in England. I think we’re a left winger short, but would definitely like to see us with 2 natural wide players.

The captain of a team wears an armband, it doesn’t mean others can’t lead. Luke Waterfall is quite vocal, as is Luke Hendrie, in midfield Hess leads by example by being fully committed and winning challenges, and up front there’s no one more experienced than James Hanson and even Matt Green has plenty of football league games under his belt. Personally I think our central midfield could do with a slightly more experienced head, not a 34 year old John Welsh type but just someone who’s been around the block in the leagues for a few years to partner Hess and Ethan Robson in a 3. But overall I don’t think who wears the armband matters that much.

You’ve raised some good questions though, these are just my personal thoughts on them, not answers.

All these things have been said for yonks. I think the problem stems from pre season in that we just concentrated on signing players for a Plan A and no thought as to if Plan A didn't work. We want wingers but we don't have any that could improve our performances-Wright isn't ready yet but could be in the future. We rely too much on Hanson and this can easily be neutralised by a shrewd manager. The defence has to soak up too much pressure for comfort but we don't have many alternatives. Hang on until the transfer window opens and let's hope Jolly has others in mind.

Quoted from cod_head_doug

Having watched all the Town games so far this season may I express my views of a few points which I consider need some thought.
1) Why, oh why, do we need all eleven players in our 18 yard box when we concede a corner or free kick ?

This is not only infuriating, it also shows IMO that Jolley is a manager who plays the percentage game.

Not necessarily a bad thing but  what drives me mad is that no matter who we play or what time of the game/situation we do the same thing. We could be winning or drawing or losing it does not matter. The only reason he could argue for doing this is that "statistically" you concede less goals having everyone defend at a set piece. Though it would be nice to actually see these stats and see if there is actually any proof in it.

If you think about it if you only ever do the one thing you actually end up have no data to compare surely? As you are not creating the situation where you leave players forward at set pieces to compare? Bonkers really.  

But more than that it is such a negative tactic is does not exactly match with his comments about wanting to play attacking football. Says one thing does the opposite, now where have we seen that before...

UTM

Think we need to get over the whole "bringing everyone back to defend corners" thing.

Most teams do it now.

Not saying it's what I would do, personally, but it's not an outrageous concept and clearly has its advantages, as jimgtfc has started to explain.

Agree with OP - all points.

Defending corners with 11 players always annoys.

Other issues that are avoidable:  playing the wrong players, and playing both the wrong players and right players in clearly their wrong positions.

Quoted from Tommy

Think we need to get over the whole "bringing everyone back to defend corners" thing.

Most teams do it now.

Not saying it's what I would do, personally, but it's not an outrageous concept and clearly has its advantages, as jimgtfc has started to explain.

This is quite possibly nonsense, but I get the impression that it's something that filters down the leagues. If Liverpool or Man City suddenly started leaving 2 men up when defending a corner, 2 weeks later The Dog and Gun would be doing exactly the same.

Quoted from golfer

Wright isn't ready yet

I'd have to disagree on that, he's been one of our most exciting and havoc-causing players who forced his way into starting eleven such was his effectiveness until being targeted and cynically taken out by the opposition because of the problems he caused.

Good post Doug.

I worry that MJ is overthinking. He's young enough not to fully appreciate that finding a successful XI frequently requires a bit of luck.
If by chance a side you put out 'clicks' - count yourself lucky, and stick with them (in the short term at least).

I would make the XI that won at Exeter my first choice team.

           *** Noises Off:   "It's a squad game...."  ***

Well yes it is - but it seems perverse to use the squad in such a way that it weakens the team!
IMO the squad-players will get a fair amount of pitch-time regardless. Injuries, suspensions, substitutions, genuinely resting players rather
than giving them a third match in 8 days, cup matches...to name a few.
I think Hanson would make an excellent last-half-hour sub given the opposition defenders have been chasing our quicker guys for an hour.




Bobby C is also my hero.  

I don't like the idea of having all 11 back but we have more problems than that,

MJ should and is ( I think )  working on stopping us conceding goals from anywhere on the pitch, because at the moment we are letting far too many goals in and not scoring enough.

What happened to our early season goal glut when we were top scorers in the division ?

Lots of people citing the Exeter team as the one that should be Plan A but the whole idea of that side was to soak up pressure and counter attack with pace. At Plymouth yes but would the home contingent really be happy with sitting back and defending down The BP?

Quoted from Tommy

Think we need to get over the whole "bringing everyone back to defend corners" thing.

Most teams do it now.

Not saying it's what I would do, personally, but it's not an outrageous concept and clearly has its advantages, as jimgtfc has started to explain.

Got no problem with this if it required bit there was one team recently possibly Stevenage when having a corner left two in defence yet we stilled pulled all 10 players into the box it needs to be altered when we can

Quoted from 137

Good post Doug.

I worry that MJ is overthinking. He's young enough not to fully appreciate that finding a successful XI frequently requires a bit of luck.
If by chance a side you put out 'clicks' - count yourself lucky, and stick with them (in the short term at least).

I would make the XI that won at Exeter my first choice team.

           *** Noises Off:   "It's a squad game...."  ***

Well yes it is - but it seems perverse to use the squad in such a way that it weakens the team!
IMO the squad-players will get a fair amount of pitch-time regardless. Injuries, suspensions, substitutions, genuinely resting players rather
than giving them a third match in 8 days, cup matches...to name a few.
I think Hanson would make an excellent last-half-hour sub given the opposition defenders have been chasing our quicker guys for an hour.




Bobby C is also my hero.  

The idea of playing the same team who played at Exeter falls down when you throw in the fact that not every team plays like Exeter and wouldn’t attack us like that at BP. Mass chopping and changing is not helpful but neither is the other extreme. Whilst I’d like to see a more adventurous attitude you do have to take into account the opposition and other circumstances like availability, and degrees of readiness (even a ‘fit’ player might not be physically or mentally 100% and we don’t see what the management sees through the week).

Quoted from KingstonMariner

The idea of playing the same team who played at Exeter falls down when you throw in the fact that not every team plays like Exeter and wouldn’t attack us like that at BP. Mass chopping and changing is not helpful but neither is the other extreme. Whilst I’d like to see a more adventurous attitude you do have to take into account the opposition and other circumstances like availability, and degrees of readiness (even a ‘fit’ player might not be physically or mentally 100% and we don’t see what the management sees through the week).

Maybe, but let's not lose sight of the fact that Exeter were the unbeaten league toppers. Not every team plays like Exeter...but all of them had played worse up to
that point!
Why should we worry too much about them unless we want to? We need to have belief in ourselves if we hope to achieve success.

Just to play Devil's advocate it's fair to assume we don't have a play off chasing budget and if we match teams like for like we don't have the quality to be anything other than a mid table side. The Plymouth game came about exactly because Jolley tinkered with the team to nullify the opposition so we can't have it both ways. I'd love to see us have the quality needed to not worry about how the opposition play but that's becoming rarer and rarer in football at all levels. In many ways I feel the same about Jolley as I did about Hurst. Both are young managers learning their trade and will make mistakes from time to time. If the alternative is the likes of Slade who have played the same way for donkey's then I'm happy to give them time.

Don't get this "budget " thing that keeps getting mentioned on here. Our budget is "competitive " for the division we are in. There are teams above us with smaller budgets and teams below with bigger budgets. It's all relative. Accrington and Burton for example prove the point.

As for bringing everyone back for corners, it's fine if you have pace and set yourself up for it. We don't on both counts. Barcelona have everyone back for corners but set themselves up to counter. They don't clear the ball up to the half way line but just clear it out of the box where their forwards very quickly close it down and win it back. Then you are in trouble! They quickly break out from their box as a team, whereas we don't. I know they have world class players to do this, but it is all relative. We are not playing against internationals in La Liga, but in the fourth tier of the English league.


.

Quoted from Abdul19

This is quite possibly nonsense, but I get the impression that it's something that filters down the leagues. If Liverpool or Man City suddenly started leaving 2 men up when defending a corner, 2 weeks later The Dog and Gun would be doing exactly the same.

Thinking of trends like this just got me thinking about a book I read. For anyone that hasn't read it, The Mixer by Michael Cox is a good read on Premier League tactics from 1992 onwards. Very interesting read about the evolution of tactics and trends in the Premier League years.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01N2QBCOJ/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i1

Having spoken to Mr. Jolly with regard to Steven Holzner's book on Quantum Physics I can now make sense of complex terms and concepts,from eigenvalues to oscillators but can I fk as understand why he has everybody in our box for corners.

I do not understand why bringing everyone back for corners still gets mentioned after a certain power point presentation by that tactical genius Mr Slade. He made his point with great clarity and knowledge, just look where he is now, Barcelona, no, Man City, no, Accrington Stanley, no, Hereford, yes!!!!

Quoted from golfer

Having spoken to Mr. Jolly with regard to Steven Holzner's book on Quantum Physics I can now make sense of complex terms and concepts,from eigenvalues to oscillators but can I fk as understand why he has everybody in our box for corners.

Maybe it's to counter the effect of Up, Down, Strangeness and Charm !

Quoted from 137

Maybe, but let's not lose sight of the fact that Exeter were the unbeaten league toppers. Not every team plays like Exeter...but all of them had played worse up to
that point!
Why should we worry too much about them unless we want to? We need to have belief in ourselves if we hope to achieve success.

Well the point is relevant that we changed our team and style of play to suit the way Exeter were expected to play.

This fetishising of self-belief is a load of American nonsense. No matter how much I believe in myself I will not grow a ten inch tackle and earn a fortune as a porn star. 😆

"Wishing and hoping but when you look down you find it's only a dream "    Dusty Springfield.

Hope MJ sees the points Doug
Think most of those things we scratch our heads on
Come on Town solid performance sat

It’s absolutely mind blowing that people on here are still asking about our defensive corner routine when it has been answered by Jolley/Limbrick in at least one fans’ forum and you had Slade literally delivered a slide show presentation explaining it too.

How else would you like it explained to you? Delivered through song perhaps?

Thanks for your views everyone, I also have a conspiracy theory..................
To become a manager or coach nowadays you have to do your badges through the F.A.
Everyone is trained the same way and given the same ideas.
I have noticed that every away team warm up in the same way with the same routines.
The flair and radically new "out of the box" thinking is being stiffled.
The sport of football has changed so much in my lifetime that it is barely recognisable as the same game.
And don't get me going on V.A.R. and players feigning injury !!!!

Quoted from ska face

It’s absolutely mind blowing that people on here are still asking about our defensive corner routine when it has been answered by Jolley/Limbrick in at least one fans’ forum and you had Slade literally delivered a slide show presentation explaining it too.

How else would you like it explained to you? Delivered through song perhaps?

Ska, I am not asking for it to be explained to me, all I am saying is it is a poor tactic at best. Our goalkeeper cannot move with twenty players in his box, and the chance of giving away a penalty for a push or a foul is increased due to the number of attacking players running into the box. Yes you try to smother any clear chance of the opposition, but more times that not the ball is just ricocheting all over the place and can just as easily be deflected in as cleared.
I would like to see a new approach, or revert back to a system where when your last ditch defender clears the ball forward, he knows that there is a team mate each side of the centre circle, ready and waiting to put in a counter attack, and thereby relieve the pressure on the defense. We keep possession, there is no instant second ball back into our box. Makes sense to me !! Maybe I'm a dinosaur !!

Quoted from cod_head_doug

and players feigning injury !!!!

Players feigning injury is my biggest bugbear, it really winds me up.

Cheltenham at BP was a good example.  

Quoted from KingstonMariner

Well the point is relevant that we changed our team and style of play to suit the way Exeter were expected to play.

This fetishising of self-belief is a load of American nonsense. No matter how much I believe in myself I will not grow a ten inch tackle and earn a fortune as a porn star. 😆

Yes, MJ picked a team to suit the way Exeter were expected to play - and they produced an outstanding result. The point I'm making is that he may have stumbled
on a winning formula...but his footballing philosophy seems to entail changes regardless. I suggest this, in itself, contributes to our obvious inconsistency.
I just think we'd do better if MJ adopted the "don't change a winning team" approach rather than feel he has to out-think his opposite number every match.

Inculcating self-belief is a core philosophy of both Eton School (est. 1440) and the Royal Marines (est. 1664) so we probably started the fetish you mention.

I'd also like a 10-inch male private, but  I can't think how to lose those extra 2 inches....

Quoted from 137

Yes, MJ picked a team to suit the way Exeter were expected to play - and they produced an outstanding result. The point I'm making is that he may have stumbled
on a winning formula...but his footballing philosophy seems to entail changes regardless. I suggest this, in itself, contributes to our obvious inconsistency.
I just think we'd do better if MJ adopted the "don't change a winning team" approach rather than feel he has to out-think his opposite number every match.

Inculcating self-belief is a core philosophy of both Eton School (est. 1440) and the Royal Marines (est. 1664) so we probably started the fetish you mention.

I'd also like a 10-inch male private, but  I can't think how to lose those extra 2 inches....

If we’d picked the same team and tactics against a team who sat back against us at BP, we’d end up with a stalemate.

I’m sure the Royal Marines would not ignore who the opposition were and what their strengths and weaknesses.

It helps the self belief fetish if in your examples you start with in the first case the offspring of the rich and influential and in the second people who have good physical and mental properties. The selection process in both cases weeds out those unlikely to succeed.

Can i just say that the biggest problem is the Midfield is pretty much gash!
Sorry but its lacking wide players and most of what we have is not good enough at present.


Mid Centre
Hess is a good average L2 player
Whitehouse, not saying he cant have his good days but so far he has been pretty gash.
Clifton has gone backwards under Jolley, hope its a blip but its a lasting blip and with him being local i hold hope but it is disappearing ral fast.
Robson is not ours and not playing enough to make a great judgement on.
Cook - hard to tell where he is best played and is very much a utility man, not great anywhere but can fill a gap.
Wideplayers
Max Wright - great prospect and proving to be upto the job
Vernum - is he a winger or striker? is he good enough or too much mr inconsistent?
Akheem - not a winger by  a long way but can do a very limited job.


So thats it for me, we have centre mid with 1 player that i rate and 1 wide player. here lays the problem for me.

I actually think the team in other areas is pretty solid. Defence is decent and up front is the healthiest its been for years.

How can Clifton have gone backwards under Jolley when he only made his first start about a week and a half before he took over?

Quoted from monkeyboy

Can i just say that the biggest problem is the Midfield is pretty much gash!
Sorry but its lacking wide players and most of what we have is not good enough at present.


Mid Centre
Hess is a good average L2 player
Whitehouse, not saying he cant have his good days but so far he has been pretty gash.
Clifton has gone backwards under Jolley, hope its a blip but its a lasting blip and with him being local i hold hope but it is disappearing ral fast.
Robson is not ours and not playing enough to make a great judgement on.
Cook - hard to tell where he is best played and is very much a utility man, not great anywhere but can fill a gap.
Wideplayers
Max Wright - great prospect and proving to be upto the job
Vernum - is he a winger or striker? is he good enough or too much mr inconsistent?
Akheem - not a winger by  a long way but can do a very limited job.


So thats it for me, we have centre mid with 1 player that i rate and 1 wide player. here lays the problem for me.

I actually think the team in other areas is pretty solid. Defence is decent and up front is the healthiest its been for years.

Generally pretty poignant points monkeyboy, but to say Hess is a good average lg 2 player is off the mark imo, he has been consistently our best player since his arrival and I'm sure he could slot into most lg 1 as a defensive midfielder and does an excellent job fur us sitting in front of the defence and probably has something to do with why we are generally quite resilient in defence.
Clifton seems to have struggled this season so far, no idea why tbh, but he starred to come on leaps and bounds last season, so to say he's gone backwards under Jolley is wrong, if anything Jolley was bringing him on a treat.
Vernham, he frustrates me, there's definitely a player in there but he's lost his way, either the shin splints have knocked his confidence or they are worse then we are lead to believe.
As for Cook, he's a jack of all trades but a master of none, the one thing he brings to the team though is immense energy and passion, he runs the ball down well, charges at defenders and give the opponent's no time on the ball, best suited working in a 4-3-3 formation.
Whitehouse?...again I'm not sure how much the knee injury has taken out of him but so far there's been glimpses of something of quality but overall the jury is out with me
Wright- destined for playing higher up the lg pyramid but then again, I says that about Jack Macreth and git that catastrophically wrong!!  

Quoted from KingstonMariner

If we’d picked the same team and tactics against a team who sat back against us at BP, we’d end up with a stalemate.

But I was suggesting the same team...I'd certainly suggest different tactics at home (against anyone).

You don't necessarily need to change the personnel to play a different style IF the players can adapt. Winning sides adapt, they have to
- the opposition will soon suss you out if you only have a plan A - and my point is that the XI who played Exeter could/should have earned
themselves at least another 90 minutes and...perhaps...show themselves to be potential serial winners who can adapt.
We don't know that yet.
It would be worth knowing IMO.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

It helps the self belief fetish if in your examples you start with in the first case the offspring of the rich and influential and in the second people who have good physical and mental properties. The selection process in both cases weeds out those unlikely to succeed.

I can't see how this bolsters your argument.

Two institutions who, as you correctly point out, already have an intake of individuals more likely to succeed....both of whom stress the importance of self-belief
in order to achieve that success.

Which is what I was saying about Town.

Quoted from cod_head_doug

Thanks for your views everyone, I also have a conspiracy theory..................
To become a manager or coach nowadays you have to do your badges through the F.A.
Everyone is trained the same way and given the same ideas.
I have noticed that every away team warm up in the same way with the same routines.
The flair and radically new "out of the box" thinking is being stiffled.
The sport of football has changed so much in my lifetime that it is barely recognisable as the same game.
And don't get me going on V.A.R. and players feigning injury !!!!

I can most definitely say that this isn't the case.

Coaching courses don't tell people how to set teams up at all. They develop coaches in the way they coach and develop players (and teams).

The way Managers/Coaches set their teams up to play is down to personal preference or them just adapting to the squad they have at that particular club.

So the way teams set up to defend set pieces, the way teams set up tactically in general, and the line-ups managers choose, is all down to the Managers personal preference, probably underpinned by their ideal philosophy. So while it often is different to what we, as fans, would do or who we would pick in this position or that position, I think there has to be an element of "you can't please all of the people, all of the time" to this sort of thing.