5 questions I'd like to ask Artell

1) Since we changed shape we have 17 points from 12 games which is play off form. Putting your own feelings to 1 side ( i suspect he hates having to play this way), is it feasible for a team to play that system all season?

2) In an ideal world would you have a 1st choice keeper with a back up or 2 equal ability keepers fighting for the spot ?

3) Do you agree that you have to adapt your system of playing to suit the players you have and can feasibly get?

4) Are any of the 1st team pros or the under 18s good enough to become significant members of the 1st team squad next season?

5) What are the 3 biggest areas where you want to see an improvement in the next 6 months?

Very good questions.
Artell impressed me with his ability to adapt. As they say, you do the same things you get the same results from the Doncaster game what a change. I actually think the changes had been implemented before then, but were not working
The ability to adapt and utilise what you have to get the best out of them is very good management and I was impressed.


utm

Quoted from Zmariner

Very good questions.
Artell impressed me with his ability to adapt. As they say, you do the same things you get the same results from the Doncaster game what a change. I actually think the changes had been implemented before then, but were not working
The ability to adapt and utilise what you have to get the best out of them is very good management and I was impressed.


utm

We do seem to have a Plan B with Artell when things need changing which is encouraging.

Quoted from forza ivano

1) Since we changed shape we have 17 points from 12 games which is play off form.

No it's not. It works out at 65 points over a 46 game season.

In the 27 completed tier 4 seasons since the division returned to 24 clubs after the 1994/95 season the lowest points to achieve 7th was 66 in 2006 (Lincoln).

The last time a team reached the play-offs with less than 70 points was 2013 when Bradford were promoted via the play-offs after finishing on 69 points.

And interestingly in the 18 seasons between 1995/96 and 2012/13 the team finishing 7th achieved an average of 71.5 points.

In the 9 completed seasons from 2013/14 onwards the team finishing 7th has averaged 73.1 points.

And since the formation change after the Donny disaster we've won 4 out of 12. That works out at 15 wins over a 46 match season.

In the last 5 completed League 2 seasons no team has reached the play-offs with less than 20 wins.

And only 3 times since 1995/16 has a team got to the play-offs with less than 18 wins. 2 clubs achieved 17 wins to finish 7th (2009 & 2011) with just 1 example of 15 wins being enough to finish 7th (Lincoln in 2006 again).

So, stop pretending everything has been marvelous after the Doncaster game. It hasn't.

And anyhow, no Head Coach would get away with the style and quality of football over the last 12 games over a full season. There's no relegation battle fan pragmatism in August.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

No it's not. It works out at 65 points over a 46 game season.

In the 27 completed tier 4 seasons since the division returned to 24 clubs after the 1994/95 season the lowest points to achieve 7th was 66 in 2006 (Lincoln).

The last time a team reached the play-offs with less than 70 points was 2013 when Bradford were promoted via the play-offs after finishing on 69 points.

And interestingly in the 18 seasons between 1995/96 and 2012/13 the team finishing 7th achieved an average of 71.5 points.

In the 9 completed seasons from 2013/14 onwards the team finishing 7th has averaged 73.1 points.

And since the formation change after the Donny disaster we've won 4 out of 12. That works out at 15 wins over a 46 match season.

In the last 5 completed League 2 seasons no team has reached the play-offs with less than 20 wins.

And only 3 times since 1995/16 has a team got to the play-offs with less than 18 wins. 2 clubs achieved 17 wins to finish 7th (2009 & 2011) with just 1 example of 15 wins being enough to finish 7th (Lincoln in 2006 again).

So, stop pretending everything has been marvelous after the Doncaster game. It hasn't.

And anyhow, no Head Coach would get away with the style and quality of football over the last 12 games over a full season. There's no relegation battle fan pragmatism in August.

Bloody misery guts.

Quoted from forza ivano

1) Since we changed shape we have 17 points from 12 games which is play off form. Putting your own feelings to 1 side ( i suspect he hates having to play this way), is it feasible for a team to play that system all season?

2) In an ideal world would you have a 1st choice keeper with a back up or 2 equal ability keepers fighting for the spot ?

3) Do you agree that you have to adapt your system of playing to suit the players you have and can feasibly get?

4) Are any of the 1st team pros or the under 18s good enough to become significant members of the 1st team squad next season?

5) What are the 3 biggest areas where you want to see an improvement in the next 6 months?

If I remember a recent DA interview correctly, they were having a meeting regarding youth team contracts at the time he found out about his Dad.

Given that three or four have gone out on loan, I think those concerned are possibly finding out how they cope with men's football.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

No it's not. It works out at 65 points over a 46 game season.

In the 27 completed tier 4 seasons since the division returned to 24 clubs after the 1994/95 season the lowest points to achieve 7th was 66 in 2006 (Lincoln).

The last time a team reached the play-offs with less than 70 points was 2013 when Bradford were promoted via the play-offs after finishing on 69 points.

And interestingly in the 18 seasons between 1995/96 and 2012/13 the team finishing 7th achieved an average of 71.5 points.

In the 9 completed seasons from 2013/14 onwards the team finishing 7th has averaged 73.1 points.

And since the formation change after the Donny disaster we've won 4 out of 12. That works out at 15 wins over a 46 match season.

In the last 5 completed League 2 seasons no team has reached the play-offs with less than 20 wins.

And only 3 times since 1995/16 has a team got to the play-offs with less than 18 wins. 2 clubs achieved 17 wins to finish 7th (2009 & 2011) with just 1 example of 15 wins being enough to finish 7th (Lincoln in 2006 again).

So, stop pretending everything has been marvelous after the Doncaster game. It hasn't.

And anyhow, no Head Coach would get away with the style and quality of football over the last 12 games over a full season. There's no relegation battle fan pragmatism in August.

Take away the robbery of Sutton and it would be 5 wins in 12. We also threw the win away against Bradford, it's not been excellent but it's also not been awful, the players have shown a desire to fight for the badge and shown enough quality to obtain the points required despite every single person writing us off. We've lost twice in 12 and that was against Wrexham and Barrow.. our problem this season has been drawing games and I am very optimistic that we will turn more of those draws into wins under a more pragmatic approach under Artell. It's not all sunshine and rainbows but we showed against MK Dons we can sit behind the ball and nullify teams, against Newport and Crewe we've dominated the games and got much required wins.. the ability to adapt to the different teams we play is something that Artell does much better than Hurst.

Quoted from LocalLadGTFC

Take away the robbery of Sutton and it would be 5 wins in 12.

If my Aunt had a pair of b0ll0cks she'd be my Uncle.

Quoted from Heisenberg

Bloody misery guts.

Oh sorry, am I supposed to celebrate successfully navigating a relegation battle we should never have been involved in?

Quoted from GollyGTFC

If my Aunt had a pair of b0ll0cks she'd be my Uncle.

That analogy would work if they were surgically attatched, you can't fathom a lino giving a robbery of a decision into account.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

Oh sorry, am I supposed to celebrate successfully navigating a relegation battle we should never have been involved in?

Would you prefer relegation? Right now, staying up has to be considered something to celebrate, albeit only temporarily until our goals for next year are set.

After yesterday I’m very happy, and I’m glad to admit it.

Quoted from LocalLadGTFC

Take away the robbery of Sutton and it would be 5 wins in 12. We also threw the win away against Bradford, it's not been excellent but it's also not been awful, the players have shown a desire to fight for the badge and shown enough quality to obtain the points required despite every single person writing us off. We've lost twice in 12 and that was against Wrexham and Barrow.. our problem this season has been drawing games and I am very optimistic that we will turn more of those draws into wins under a more pragmatic approach under Artell. It's not all sunshine and rainbows but we showed against MK Dons we can sit behind the ball and nullify teams, against Newport and Crewe we've dominated the games and got much required wins.. the ability to adapt to the different teams we play is something that Artell does much better than Hurst.

And Harrogate

1. Where did you find that striker 28 goals in first season . Brilliant !!!!

2, Did you think we would be playing at Wembley this season. After winning EFL Trophy.

3. When did you think we would be champions .  With 6 games to play or with four games left .

4.Did you think we could win at Old Trafford by 3 clear goals before the game .

5. Do you think we could win L 1 next season seeing we only lost 2 games this year.



Well we can dream can't we ?  

Quoted from GollyGTFC

No it's not. It works out at 65 points over a 46 game season.

In the 27 completed tier 4 seasons since the division returned to 24 clubs after the 1994/95 season the lowest points to achieve 7th was 66 in 2006 (Lincoln).

The last time a team reached the play-offs with less than 70 points was 2013 when Bradford were promoted via the play-offs after finishing on 69 points.

And interestingly in the 18 seasons between 1995/96 and 2012/13 the team finishing 7th achieved an average of 71.5 points.

In the 9 completed seasons from 2013/14 onwards the team finishing 7th has averaged 73.1 points.

And since the formation change after the Donny disaster we've won 4 out of 12. That works out at 15 wins over a 46 match season.

In the last 5 completed League 2 seasons no team has reached the play-offs with less than 20 wins.

And only 3 times since 1995/16 has a team got to the play-offs with less than 18 wins. 2 clubs achieved 17 wins to finish 7th (2009 & 2011) with just 1 example of 15 wins being enough to finish 7th (Lincoln in 2006 again).

So, stop pretending everything has been marvelous after the Doncaster game. It hasn't.

And anyhow, no Head Coach would get away with the style and quality of football over the last 12 games over a full season. There's no relegation battle fan pragmatism in August.

Would dispute your use of the word “interestingly” there.

I knew I could rely on Golly  

Quoted from GollyGTFC

Oh sorry, am I supposed to celebrate successfully navigating a relegation battle we should never have been involved in?

I certainly won’t be celebrating that part but you can give credit where it’s due.

A few years back Hurst took over from Holloway in a situation not too dissimilar to the one Artell took on, he took us down with barely a whimper and got widely praised for it whilst Holloway was touted as our worst ever manager.

Artell takes us on in a strikingly similar position, struggles at first then sees us safe with 3 games to spare and the jury somehow seems out on him?

Our form has been pretty decent since Doncaster and I think it’s something we can be confident we can build on.

I just want the season to end and to draw a line under it. We’re still a point off confirming mathematically so I’ll wait for that before deciding how I’m going to react to it.

1. Does the body rule the mind or does the mind rule the body?
2. Gravy with fish and chips?
3. Are you in love with a notion?
4. What time is love?
5. Nigel Batch or Danny Coyne?

Quoted from HerveJosse

And Harrogate

Why were we robbed at Harrogate, we only played reasonably well for the first 45 minutes.

My worry is how many new players will we attract and will they be good enough to play the Artell way especially as most of our current players couldn't and as I understand it it was them that forced that meeting and changed his mind.

We managed to attract players of the calibre of Thompson and Tharme in January, so why can’t we sign a few more of their ability in the summer.

I think we already have four quality players in those two, Rose and Vernam. If we can sign just four more we will have a very competitive team. Six more and we could do very well indeed next season.

It’s not mission impossible by any means.

When does the 'Rumours' page start for next season?

Quoted from WayneBurnettsJockstrap

When does the 'Rumours' page start for next season?

CDAJATL

Are we still the team that’s thrown away the most points from winning positions?

Quoted from forza ivano

1) Since we changed shape we have 17 points from 12 games which is play off form. Putting your own feelings to 1 side ( i suspect he hates having to play this way), is it feasible for a team to play that system all season?

2) In an ideal world would you have a 1st choice keeper with a back up or 2 equal ability keepers fighting for the spot ?

3) Do you agree that you have to adapt your system of playing to suit the players you have and can feasibly get?

4) Are any of the 1st team pros or the under 18s good enough to become significant members of the 1st team squad next season?

5) What are the 3 biggest areas where you want to see an improvement in the next 6 months?

Time will tell on points 1 and 3.  He got the majority of his success at Crewe with a 4-3-3 system, but that was on that arguably suited the players.  He had the right players there to play that system, how much of that was by design and how much was by accident I don't know.  You could probably argue that bringing in the likes of Porter and Green helped compliment what he had in terms of Kirk, Ainley, Ng et al. and he shaped it from there.

Considering what we've seen him do these past few months in terms of fitting the system around the players, I would imagine what system we play will again be largely dictated with what he has at his disposal.  Without doubt he'll have a perfect system in mind, based on his earlier games here I suspect it'll be a 4-2-3-1 type system.  But I think he's smart enough to know that a) he'll have to flex any system and b) it's no good going with the system that doesn't suit the players.

As everyone is pretty much saying, I think the real value heading into next season is that we've got a strong core of Tharme, Thompson and Rose running through the middle of the side.  Whichever system you play that core can remain, it's just the bits around it that really need working on.

I'm not opposed to going three at the back, far from it.  I actually think it's a really good system and in many ways allows you to progressively overload in areas that few other systems do.  One defender stepping up and two wingbacks stepping inside can very quickly see you go 6 on 3 or 4 in central areas.  You've also got the option of a striker dropping deeper as well to give you even more of an overload.  

The only downside to a 3 at the back is that I think it can limit you going forward.  As they're on their own on the flank, you tend to need more defensive minded wingbacks than attack ones.  I've been pleasantly surprised with how well Vernam has done in his two games at wingback, I didn't think it was in him.  If he can do it over more than two games is to be seen though.  On the other flank I think Smith has improved since coming back into the side but he's more steady than spectacular.  You really need your wingbacks to dominate if you're playing that system.  I still think there's an argument for putting and keeping Clifton out there.  Technically he won't dominate but I think his energy more than offsets everything else.  You could say the same for Smith I suppose, but because Clifton is so disciplined you can perhaps afford a more attack minded left sided wingback as you can shift across a little bit when they go forward.

Centrally though we would need more quality to continue with that system.  Green and Holohan were magnificent on Saturday.  But you can't win promotion just with hustle and bustle.  There has to be someone in there who will get things happening, especially as you've got a reduced threat from wide.  We don't have that.

Be it 3 at the back or a 4, the midfield remains the key to how we progress. We lack anyone capable of consistently hurting teams from wide and centrally.  There's also the 'Grimsby Way' to contend with.  A lack of that approach cost Hurst his job. Artell spoke upon his appointment about how he joined because the club already had a vision and a style they wanted.  I'm sure 1878 were happy for Artell to deviate from that to ensure safety, but the expectation will remain to see us playing attacking and attractive football.  

Good points as ever DHM.

We also need to look at the length of contracts that we offer to individual players.  Hard to get right. Longer contacts are perhaps needed sometimes to attract players to this part of the country.

Quoted from Theimperialcoroner

1. Does the body rule the mind or does the mind rule the body?
2. Gravy with fish and chips?
3. Are you in love with a notion?
4. What time is love?
5. Nigel Batch or Danny Coyne?

Gravy with fish AND chips?! I can almost deal with chips and gravy - some weirdos actually like it.

But gravy with battered fish..are you a mentalist?!

Quoted from pontoonlew

I certainly won’t be celebrating that part but you can give credit where it’s due.

A few years back Hurst took over from Holloway in a situation not too dissimilar to the one Artell took on, he took us down with barely a whimper and got widely praised for it whilst Holloway was touted as our worst ever manager.

Artell takes us on in a strikingly similar position, struggles at first then sees us safe with 3 games to spare and the jury somehow seems out on him?

Our form has been pretty decent since Doncaster and I think it’s something we can be confident we can build on.

It would be interesting to see the league positions and points on the board from when they both started here , I cant remember us being in the bottom 2 positions all season but I'm sure we was pretty early under Holloway

Quoted from grimsby pete

1. Where did you find that striker 28 goals in first season . Brilliant !!!!

2, Did you think we would be playing at Wembley this season. After winning EFL Trophy.

3. When did you think we would be champions .  With 6 games to play or with four games left .

4.Did you think we could win at Old Trafford by 3 clear goals before the game .

5. Do you think we could win L 1 next season seeing we only lost 2 games this year.



Well we can dream can't we ?  

If Carlsberg did Artel interviews.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

If my Aunt had a pair of b0ll0cks she'd be my Uncle.

That phrase really doesn't work these days

Quoted from grimps

It would be interesting to see the league positions and points on the board from when they both started here , I cant remember us being in the bottom 2 positions all season but I'm sure we was pretty early under Holloway

I'm dredging up the old memory and can't be arsed to do any proper research but I recall the start under Holloway being OK and we were in a relatively healthy position but results took a nosedive and kept going, it was like a death slide that seemed inevitable. The team looked poor and shot of all confidence. I think Holloway went before we hit the relegation zone but Hurst couldn't arrest the slide in time. But I'm 100% happy to be told otherwise.

I just hope he finds a happy medium between Artell ball and standard league 2 footy which would probably see us do relatively well .

Quoted from grimps

It would be interesting to see the league positions and points on the board from when they both started here , I cant remember us being in the bottom 2 positions all season but I'm sure we was pretty early under Holloway

20/21 - Hurst's first game in charge was Cambridge at home 2nd Jan - 22nd game of the season. Defeat saw us go into the bottom two.  We had briefly sat in the bottom two early on in the season but my hazy memory says we had a few games to catch up on early on?

https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/grimsby-town/league-progress/2020-2021

23/24

Hurst leaves us after the 16th game ( Town just dropped to 21st in the table).  Artell takes over just in time for the 20th game (point at MK Dons lifts us a whole place to 20th from 21st).  As we sit now, 22nd and hopes of using our game in hand to overtake Salford and finish 21st.  Very much a case of as you were.

https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/grimsby-town/league-progress

I think Hurst had a harder task in 2021 to be honest.  There wasn't much of a redeeming feature he inherited.  The spine of the team that battled to stay up (Eastwood, Menayese, Hewitt, Coke, Matete, LJL) were all brought in or had their position adjusted by Hurst in the case of Hewitt.  Artell at least had something to build on here, if not loads.

Both inherited poor squads and sides, the one Artell got is/was probably of better quality but lacked balance.  The squad Holloway handed Hurst was utter shite.  The league table absolutely masks how bad it was and the fact everyone was getting better as we were getting worse.  A team with someone like Danny Rose up top always has a chance.  A team with Ira Jackson Jnr up top doesn't.

I'd quite like to see us evolve the way we play now, gives us the protection to be defensively resillent and as shown by Saturday you can effectively dominate the ball. I think 5 at the back suits us as a club, Hurst stumbled upon it last year and got results and then it just so happened to be the formation we've reverted to in our time of need this. I don't think it's a coincedence, if done well then you can really dominate teams in wide areas with the centre backs joining the attacks aswell as having 3 bodies in the midfield to not be overloaded in there and 2 strikers to not leave one isolated like we see many a time this season.

Quoted from grimps

It would be interesting to see the league positions and points on the board from when they both started here , I cant remember us being in the bottom 2 positions all season but I'm sure we was pretty early under Holloway

We were 22nd when Hurst joined in 2020, 3 points off relegation (20 points in 21 games) and we ended up relegated by 5 points.

When Artell joined we were 21st, 4 points clear of relegation (19 points in 19 games). We’re now 6 points clear with a game in hand.

The positions were barely any different, yet the consensus was Hurst couldn’t possibly have done any different and it was impossible to get anybody who resembled a footballer in during January. Artell on the other hand has been regularly hammered for not being good enough, despite the outcome being very different.

Quoted from diehardmariner

I think Hurst had a harder task in 2021 to be honest.  There wasn't much of a redeeming feature he inherited.  The spine of the team that battled to stay up (Eastwood, Menayese, Hewitt, Coke, Matete, LJL) were all brought in or had their position adjusted by Hurst in the case of Hewitt.  Artell at least had something to build on here, if not loads.

Both inherited poor squads and sides, the one Artell got is/was probably of better quality but lacked balance.  The squad Holloway handed Hurst was utter shite.  The league table absolutely masks how bad it was and the fact everyone was getting better as we were getting worse.  A team with someone like Danny Rose up top always has a chance.  A team with Ira Jackson Jnr up top doesn't.

I think you're bang on here, the team Hurst inherited was awful and although he brought in much better players they struggled to overcome the shortcomings of the rest of the squad. I genuinely didn't think the current team would get relegated while the team Hurst inherited just looked like it was inevitable.

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

Gravy with fish AND chips?! I can almost deal with chips and gravy - some weirdos actually like it.

But gravy with battered fish..are you a mentalist?!

I completely agree. Who in their right mind would do that?

Quoted from pontoonlew

We were 22nd when Hurst joined in 2020, 3 points off relegation (20 points in 21 games) and we ended up relegated by 5 points.

When Artell joined we were 21st, 4 points clear of relegation (19 points in 19 games). We’re now 6 points clear with a game in hand.

The positions were barely any different, yet the consensus was Hurst couldn’t possibly have done any different and it was impossible to get anybody who resembled a footballer in during January. Artell on the other hand has been regularly hammered for not being good enough, despite the outcome being very different.

There is one massive difference which you're overlooking. Hurst had inherited a dreadful squad from Holloway but the country had also just gone back into a full national lockdown. Recruitment in January is hard enough but persuading contracted players to move from their homes during that time must have been an absolute nightmare.

I think Artell has done alright incidentally and never advocated getting rid. I also think the recruitment of Tharme and Thompson has made a massive difference.

[quote=40]1. Does the body rule the mind or does the mind rule the body?

I’m pretty sure my bladder has declared independence from my brain

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

Gravy with fish AND chips?! I can almost deal with chips and gravy - some weirdos actually like it.

But gravy with battered fish..are you a mentalist?!

I tried it once and felt thoroughly ashamed of myself. Mind you, not the only thing I could give that description!

Quoted from Theimperialcoroner

1. Does the body rule the mind or does the mind rule the body?
2. Gravy with fish and chips?
3. Are you in love with a notion?
4. What time is love?
5. Nigel Batch or Danny Coyne?

1. I’ll ask the mrs
2. Pholistine
3. My jelly. It’s actually a gel
4. 3am eternal according to the KLF
5. Dave Beasent

Quoted from Heisenberg

I tried it once and felt thoroughly ashamed of myself. Mind you, not the only thing I could give that description!

That’s ok. The first step is always to admit it to yourself. There is help available.

If you’ve eaten gravy with fish and chips you can find help by calling 0800 80087355 or go to http://www.whattheactualf*ck.com

There’ll be someone who will listen….

So after the retained list has been announced my questions would be,

- Was it a hard decision to release every OOC player?

- When’s the former championship keeper coming in?

- Are we close to signing 3/4 the level of Thompson & Tharme

- How do you plan to get a tune out of Alex Hunt?

- How many touch line bans are you allowing yourself this year.

In reality my only expectation is we’re safe by the end of March at least