Grand National 2012

Quoted from pontoonlew

I was at Aintree last week, they paraded 15 ex Grand National Runners & winners. All in supreme condition, most were either now show jumping or just being cared for by different owners. Your point is bullshit .

Excellent point made by whoever said about nobody cares if it's a human but do if its an animal, totally correct.

http://www.chai-online.org/en/compassion/dailymail_slaughter.pdf

Quoted Text

The slaughterman precariously balances a rifle against the small grey pony's head.
Seconds later a shot rings out, the pony flails on the ground and is then winched onto a production line.
This is the reality of the slaughter and butchering of thousands of unwanted riding ponies and racehorses at
a British abattoir.
The picture here is one of several taken by undercover investigators for Animal Aid.............
........Around 3,000 ponies and horses are put through Potter's each year. The company says that around 100 are
from horse racing and the remainder privately owned.

Now ignoring the biased and emotive language in that article it is stating that racing horses are sent to these abbatoirs. This was in 2007 so if it were factually incorrect don't you think the racing industry and abbatoir would have had them for libel by now? Hardly "bullshit"

In reply to 80s, unfortunately I don't spend much time on the fishy so haven't mastered the art of quoting snippets of a post but anyway....

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First you say it's jockeys and trainers making money then you say "If they choose to keep doing something that costs them money that's their choice".
Making money or losing money, which is it ?  

Bit of both, depending on the results that their horses achieve. If they fail to make any money, or even lose some but persevere then that's their business. Those jockeys and trainers who do manage to make a bit of money from that horse's 'career', for want of a better word, should at the very least pay for that animal's long term accommodation, food etc and not just 'dispose' of it.

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Once you call to ban something because it "might" cause harm, you're on a very slippery slope.
The point is so simple but typically, people like you seemingly refuse to acknowledge or understand it at all.
As I said, careful what you wish for or you might find GTFC is put out to pasture too

I'd like an end to horse racing because it DOES cause harm, never mind might. Without wishing to sound like an enlightened child of the 60s, I deplore any industry where a small handful of people benefit from the enforced misery of others - be it the slave trade or horse racing. As ridiculous and extreme as that comparison may seem the principle is the same in my eyes. To my knowledge there is no recruiting office where the horses eagerly queue outside to sign up to these races, it is something they are bred to do without choice.
And as a believer in Darwin's theory of evolution and natural selection I highly doubt that the horse genepool developed itself in preparation for races. Yes they have adapted to run fast, probably something to do with escaping the predators they faced back then but the injuries they sustain in leaping these fences suggests that their bodies are not ideally designed for what the jockeys want them to do.

The point is, no amount of dietary planning, fitness training or endless tinkering with race tracks and the size of jumps has been able to prevent the plethora of fatalities and injuries every year.

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Your desires would cause several hundreds of thousands of jobs to be lost - FACT !
So yes, I WILL flannel you and say you've got your prioirities wrong.

Sorry if this sounds crude but I couldn't care less about the livelihoods of people who work in an industry in which animals needlessly suffer. They chose to go into that career, knowing full well what life is like for the horse. And I think your "hundreds of thousands" of jobs estimate is a little excessive (unless you're talking globally).

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It's more a case these owners care deeply but also realise that most horses love to run and jump and if anything, it would be cruel to stop them from doing it.

I know that, and it's defined within the five animal needs of the Animal Welfare Act that the animal should be able "exhibit normal behaviour" which in horses' case may mean jumps. But the size of these jumps such as Beacher's (this is one of my main gripes) are well in excess of what even a healthy, fit horse can safely manage, hence the deaths and injuries. It's not something they "love to" do but are whipped into doing it. If people keep horses as a pet in their little paddock out in the sticks and give it small small obstacles to jump over - and it chooses to jump them then fine.  You and one or two others have made the point about marathon runners dying - they make an informed decision to run these marathons, the horses don't. That's my main gripe

Finally I still don't follow the point you keep making about how GTFC would be banned if horse racing were. Once again - choice. Players choose to go into that career, knowig there is a small chance of them being the next Marc Vivien Foe - especially with the physical exertion expected of them in the modern game. I certainly don't advocate a risk averse society where we ban things left right and centre, just compassion and common sense which is devoid in the design of these racecourses.

Just realised my "PGDN" button doesn't work anymore. Thanks 80s  

Quoted from AdamHaddock

http://www.chai-online.org/en/compassion/dailymail_slaughter.pdf

Obviously there's a problem of sorts with SOME selfish owners but point is, it's a different issue to horses running round a track.

Looking at the stats (100 horses from 3000) seems to suggest ponies are a much greater issues than than racehorses.

What did the abbatoir owner say ?...

"We will all be old at some point and may spend our later years in great discomfort and horses are the same."
"The horses are handled in a stress-free manner by professional people and despatched with the minimum
of fuss, none of us could ask for anything better than that."

As I said we don't live in a perfect world.
You'll always get some selfish people neglecting animals.
But that's not the fault of the racing industry !
If it's not horses it'll probably be something else...

How many older people suffer discomfort but still have value in their lives ?
How many dogs and other animals are mistreated, abandoned and put down ?
But you wouldn't stop a dog from running just in case it fell over and broke it's neck would you ?

Point is, you can't not conceive or create life just because they might suffer later (and let's face it most of us will when we get older).
That's not how life works...

Quoted from 1600

Obviously there's a problem of sorts with SOME selfish owners but point is, it's a different issue to horses running round a track.
I don't want to deviate from horse racing but about five years ago a man in Northumberland or somewhere was convicted of shooting dead many (don't have the numbers to hand) retired racing greyhounds. Dogs whidch had been sent to him because they we're no longer raceworthy and owners didn't want to stump up for their long term care and upkeep. The number of racing animal owners who simply dispose of them in this way is not as negligible as you or I would like to think

Looking at the stats (100 horses from 3000) seems to suggest ponies are a much greater issues than than racehorses.

What did the abbatoir owner say ?...

"We will all be old at some point and may spend our later years in great discomfort and horses are the same."
"The horses are handled in a stress-free manner by professional people and despatched with the minimum
of fuss, none of us could ask for anything better than that."

As I said we don't live in a perfect world.
You'll always get some selfish people neglecting animals.
But that's not the fault of the racing industry !
If it's not horses it'll probably be something else...

How many older people suffer discomfort but still have value in their lives ? Some, but with a very limited quality of life. If you want to open up the euthanasia debate then I suggest you open a new thread
How many dogs and other animals are mistreated, abandoned and put down ? Too many and I would take a cricket bat to anyone responsible for this if they crossed my path
But you wouldn't stop a dog from running just in case it fell over and broke it's neck would you ?
No. I have a labrador and understand that his breed needs substantial excercise which I give him, but I wouldn't let someone push him well in excess of his physical limits, and risk death and injury, just for entertainment or to make a few bob
Point is, you can't not conceive or create life just because they might suffer later (and let's face it most of us will when we get older).
That's not how life works...
Of course and so far as the animal kingdom is concerned the planet would be 100% populated by herbivores if evolution didn't allow for the blikelihood of death and food chains. But I'm afraid I can't budge from an absolutist position that what horses are put through is completely unnecessary

Adam I've read your above thread(not the one directly above) and you're fixated on "misery".
People like you say nothing of joy, wellbeing, horses loving it etc.

Whether that's because you've believed all the bad publicity and got the wrong idea or just supported Town for years I don't know.
But it's not all one way traffic by any means, far from it !
I would argue a lot more good comes from the existance of racing than the bad you seem to always want to focus on.

tbh without wanting to get at you, I think you see things one dimensionally and believe all what you're told or want you want to believe.
With all due respect your comments suggest a lack of knowledge of racing and the industry in general.

Quoted from AdamHaddock

Those jockeys and trainers who do manage to make a bit of money from that horse's 'career', for want of a better word, should at the very least pay for that animal's long term accommodation, food etc and not just 'dispose' of it.

I'm sure the vast majority do !  

Quoted from AdamHaddock

I'd like an end to horse racing because it DOES cause harm, never mind might. Without wishing to sound like an enlightened child of the 60s, I deplore any industry where a small handful of people benefit from the enforced misery of others - be it the slave trade or horse racing.

How about the arms industry ?
Far more people die from that than a few horses - why don't you complain about that instead ?

Quoted from AdamHaddock

And as a believer in Darwin's theory of evolution and natural selection I highly doubt that the horse genepool developed itself in preparation for races. Yes they have adapted to run fast, probably something to do with escaping the predators they faced back then but the injuries they sustain in leaping these fences suggests that their bodies are not ideally designed for what the jockeys want them to do.

So now you're saying horses aren't designed to jump ?  

Adam, do you honestly think any owner would put any horse into the Grand national (or any race) if they didn't think it could handle the conditions or weren't suited to it ?
If so I suggest you're completely wrong !

Furthermore do you realise the jockey club/BHB has it's own criteria for allowing certain horses to race in the Grand National ?
Didn't think so !  

Quoted from AdamHaddock

The point is, no amount of dietary planning, fitness training or endless tinkering with race tracks and the size of jumps has been able to prevent the plethora of fatalities and injuries every year.

Even if you banned all running and jumping some would still die anyway.
Face facts, you can't avoid it.

Quoted from AdamHaddock

Sorry if this sounds crude but I couldn't care less about the livelihoods of people who work in an industry in which animals needlessly suffer. They chose to go into that career, knowing full well what life is like for the horse.

There you go again, painting this balderdash innacurate image of cruelty and neglect.  
Vast majority of horses are very well treated and love it !  

Quoted from AdamHaddock

And I think your "hundreds of thousands" of jobs estimate is a little excessive (unless you're talking globally).

Think I included your wonderful ban on meat too.  
But I'm not sure you're in a better position to estimate than I am - there's a lot of people involved !

Quoted from AdamHaddock

I know that, and it's defined within the five animal needs of the Animal Welfare Act that the animal should be able "exhibit normal behaviour" which in horses' case may mean jumps. But the size of these jumps such as Beacher's (this is one of my main gripes) are well in excess of what even a healthy, fit horse can safely manage, hence the deaths and injuries. It's not something they "love to" do but are whipped into doing it.

Oh yeah, you always see horses being whipped when they come to Bechers don't you ?  
Furthermore I bet if you looked at the stats of Bechers I bet you'd be suprised !
Take your point about Bechers (has been modified) and of course there are always "risks" but sorry Adam, but you're coming from a position of very little knowledge on this one...

Quoted from AdamHaddock

You and one or two others have made the point about marathon runners dying - they make an informed decision to run these marathons, the horses don't.

Of course they do !  

Quoted from AdamHaddock

Finally I still don't follow the point you keep making about how GTFC would be banned if horse racing were. Once again - choice. Players choose to go into that career, knowig there is a small chance of them being the next Marc Vivien Foe - especially with the physical exertion expected of them in the modern game. I certainly don't advocate a risk averse society where we ban things left right and centre, just compassion and common sense which is devoid in the design of these racecourses.

Pull the other one - you want ALL racing banned and you want to stop horses from running - that's what you said !  

Quoted from AdamHaddock

As ridiculous and extreme as that comparison may seem the principle is the same in my eyes. To my knowledge there is no recruiting office where the horses eagerly queue outside to sign up to these races, it is something they are bred to do without choice.

You're under this bizarre impression that if you asked a horse what it wanted to do it would say "Neigh, I don't want to run or jump !"  

Ever heard of the terms "refused to race" or "refused at the 6th" ?  

Bottom line - if horses don't want to they won't.  Fact !

I'm holding my breath now waiting for someone to put forward the argument that horses love being whipped!

I wonder how long before shergar is mentioned

Quoted from 1600

Maybe you should stick to avoiding the issue and wielding personal insults at people.
Oh you already have...  

I apologise for the cruel and barbed suggestion that you can be a bit long-winded at times. I do hope you managed to sleep.

Quoted from marinette

I'm holding my breath now waiting for someone to put forward the argument that horses love being whipped!

A few jockeys do though allegedly.