A ‘Head Coach’

Director of football route? I did see somebody mention earlier that they heard yesterday we was appointing somebody as director of football? Can't remember who it was now though!

Quoted from Davec

Director of football route? I did see somebody mention earlier that they heard yesterday we was appointing somebody as director of football? Can't remember who it was now though!

somone overheard a group at the game yesterday saying Neil Ardley at York had been approached to become Director of Football

Didn’t Ska do a bit of head coaching before the Barrow match?

Quoted from forza ivano

somone overheard a group at the game yesterday saying John Askey at York had been approached to become Director of Football

It was moi!!...Neil Ardley's at York, that was the conversation I over heard...
Like I said though, rumours are rumours, means nothing but advertising they are seeking a "head coach" rather than "first team manager" does imply a change of approach...
I'm wondering if Gareth Jenkins has had his say re Paul Hurst being allowed 100% control the footballing side of the club and any concerns that may have caused.

Manager or head coach. Isn't it just semantics?

Unless they intend to keep all the current coaching staff and just employ one guy, rather than a manager and assistant?

Are there any examples of a head coach / director of football set up ever actually working successfully anywhere? Especially in league two? I'm certainly not convinced by the idea.

DOF and a head coach means two big pay offs when the time comes next time.

Quoted from LH

DOF and a head coach means two big pay offs when the time comes next time.

Careful with the positivity there LH.

Quoted from ginnywings

Manager or head coach. Isn't it just semantics?

Unless they intend to keep all the current coaching staff and just employ one guy, rather than a manager and assistant?

Head Coaches generally have much less input into player recruitment.

The Head Coach advert could be that 1878 want to try and protect Ben Davis, Steve Croudson, Shaun and the back room staff from getting fired if a new manager wants his “own team” it would also keep the cost of the whole change process down I suspect.

Like Ginny said it’s just words as long as the Head Coach picks the team then I’m not sure there’s too much difference.

Be interesting to see if that bloke who worked for FIFA & in The Middle East is involved in the process or indeed becomes part of the day to day set up.

If we were to go down that route I’d like an experienced ex pro in the DOF role with a young up and coming manager as ‘head coach’

Quoted from ginnywings

Careful with the positivity there LH.

OK, it was put a bit bluntly but at a rough guess probably 80-90% of managerial exits are via p45.

If it’s not going the way it was hoped it would with a DOF/HC system who takes the hit? Who is the real boss? Who bears the brunt of the supporters’ gripes? Ultimately both have a share of blame therefore both go.

One thing I would speculate on now is that they probably know who their DOF target is. The question is are they going to employ a duo known to each other or matchmake them?

Quoted from HertsGTFC

The Head Coach advert could be that 1878 want to try and protect Ben Davis, Steve Croudson, Shaun and the back room staff from getting fired if a new manager wants his “own team” it would also keep the cost of the whole change process down I suspect.

Like Ginny said it’s just words as long as the Head Coach picks the team then I’m not sure there’s too much difference.

Be interesting to see if that bloke who worked for FIFA & in The Middle East is involved in the process or indeed becomes part of the day to day set up.

I dont think , from summat jason said yesterday  that its necessarily the end of the departures
I'm not sure that anyone s job in the coaching set up is safe ( crousden excepted)
If we are going down a director football then Gareth Jennings is probably as qualified as anyone in world football to give advice.
On the 'semantics' point I think everybody has said that - was it precise or loose language being used?
the fact that the only gossip/ baseless rumour heard so far is that Ardley has been approached to become DoF makes the choice of language more intriguing

It might suggest they have not been happy with the coaching side of the manager's role,  and prefer someone whose sole responsibility is to get the team coached and playing to their potential.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

It might suggest they have not been happy with the coaching side of the manager's role,  and prefer someone whose sole responsibility is to get the team coached and playing to their potential.

Indeed.the director of football would report to Debbie, n would be responsible for the whole footballing side ( including youth n recruitment) and leaving Debbie in charge of all things off the pitch ( as well as being in overall charge of the club). Clear divisions of responsibility, clear lines of reporting. Makes sense from a business point of view  but would no doubt be a risky reorganisation

Quoted from forza ivano

I dont think , from summat jason said yesterday  that its necessarily the end of the departures
I'm not sure that anyone s job in the coaching set up is safe ( crousden excepted)
If we are going down a director football then Gareth Jennings is probably as qualified as anyone in world football to give advice.
On the 'semantics' point I think everybody has said that - was it precise or loose language being used?
the fact that the only gossip/ baseless rumour heard so far is that Ardley has been approached to become DoF makes the choice of language more intriguing

I don’t see anything wrong with what you say there Forza, though if this happened 12 months ago I’d have said we go for Ardley in whatever capacity but York aren’t flying are they.

It will be an intriguing week or two I suspect, not sure what will happen but I’m not expecting anyone off the merry go round.

Isn’t Ardley good mates with Hurst? Bit odd to go, ‘thanks Hursty, now we’re going after your mate in the league below for DOF role. We didn’t think you’d be interested in that kind if thing’.

Why is Croudson exempt he’s the goal keeping coach and we have the worst goalie in living memory.

If. We bring a manager in he will want his assistant in as well we can not sack the other coaches so he can bring 3/  4  or 5 in with him On the other hand if we bring a head coach in that could be it as we already have people in place.

I believe we have got some decent players that Hurst did not bring the best out of them.

Let's hope the new man can and with 2 or 3 additions we could have a good end of the season and be in a good place to challenge at the right end of the table next season.

Quoted from Yoda

Why is Croudson exempt he’s the goal keeping coach and we have the worst goalie in living memory.

You can not polish a turd .mate.

It's not like we've been inundated with success over the last 25 years, is it?

Quoted from Yoda

Why is Croudson exempt he’s the goal keeping coach and we have the worst goalie in living memory.

You post utter shïte, some of the worst output in living memory, but we don’t ask Rob and the rest of the mods to step down

Plus, Tommy Forecast says I miss you, and he did.

Quoted from Yoda

Why is Croudson exempt he’s the goal keeping coach and we have the worst goalie in living memory.

You must be young.

The Head Coach term could be something. It equally could just be the turn of phrase - we’ve all seen Head Coaches that are traditional First Team Managers.

It could also be due to Paul still being employed, I doubt they sat down and discussed terms yesterday evening. You see it a lot in football, manager relived of their duties but end up on gardening leave whilst a settlement is agreed.

Seem to remember a few examples where managers haven’t worked for a year or two as they’re still being paid monthly having refused a settlement - taking a job would then mean they aren’t entitled to the salary from their previous club.

Suppose it’s a case of wait and see, I’m sure the ownership will communicate their plans to us all when appropriate.

As for backroom staff - I think we fail to realise sometimes our staff is unusually large compared to some L2 clubs. I remember the Fenty days when a manager turned up just with his assistant and off they went (glad we’ve progressed).

Quoted from Mikey_345

Seem to remember a few examples where managers haven’t worked for a year or two as they’re still being paid monthly having refused a settlement - taking a job would then mean they aren’t entitled to the salary from their previous club.

Hurst himself was not working for about 8 months between Ipswich and Scunthorpe and nearly a year between Scunthorpe and Grimsby. He must have a nice garden.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

Head Coaches generally have much less input into player recruitment.

If that's the case and we are going down the route of a head coach, with little or no responsibility for signings, that would negate the necessity of looking for someone like PH, who has a vast knowledge of players around this level, or a similar experienced manager type.

Stockport had a DOF and head coach setup before challinor didn't they? The DOF was close to the owner and stayed after they got rid of his choice of coach but had his wings massively clipped by newly appointed challinor I believe, as he (DOF) was then in a weak position.

Quoted from ginnywings

If that's the case and we are going down the route of a head coach, with little or no responsibility for signings, that would negate the necessity of looking for someone like PH, who has a vast knowledge of players around this level, or a similar experienced manager type.

Not many head coaches at this level, so can't see how that matters too much. Really hope that's wrong though, I think that's the most expensive route to failure possible. I can see how it fits in with their ideological thinking of continuation and nonsensical jargon.

How many clubs in England have this setup and it works? Liverpool are the only one that springs to mind and it was much talked about that Klopp makes all the decisions and then the dof goes and does his bidding.

End of the day if you worked out the percentage of successful managers weve had out of our total, and itll be the same for alot of clubs, it will be pretty low, 20% at best. If you look at clubs these days that are managing sustained success or sustaining themselves at their optimum level in the pyramid, theyve usually adapted this kind of club philosophy. If you go from a jolley to a slade you have to clear out the squad and start again.

If we can have a staff that looks at the most succesful football in league two, have an idea of what we want to do, then choose a 'head coach' based on that, and weve already been able to scout out transfer targets that will suit them ahead of time because that coach plays how we also already wanted to play, meaning weve also already got players weve invested in who suit that, and youth coming through whove been coached to play that way also, were miles ahead. Its so sensible im suprised more people arent all for it, especially after watching fenty give someone a rubbish budget, sack them for not doing well, getting someone else in and them inexplicably then be able to fund a mid season desperate squad rebuild because the manager had a complete different set of ideas. Old fashioned football idealogy is stupid and it didnt matter when we used to casually rollercoaster up and down the leagues but the whole budget just came from gate receipts, times have simply changed.

Mate of mine Is an Ipswich fan and the rumours over there are that we’ve had a conversation club to club about the availability of Brian klug

As I say, just rumours. No knowledgeable source or anything just am guessing, the fishy equivalent in east anglia

Quoted from WHYWONTYOULETMESIGNUP

End of the day if you worked out the percentage of successful managers weve had out of our total, and itll be the same for alot of clubs, it will be pretty low, 20% at best. If you look at clubs these days that are managing sustained success or sustaining themselves at their optimum level in the pyramid, theyve usually adapted this kind of club philosophy. If you go from a jolley to a slade you have to clear out the squad and start again.

If we can have a staff that looks at the most succesful football in league two, have an idea of what we want to do, then choose a 'head coach' based on that, and weve already been able to scout out transfer targets that will suit them ahead of time because that coach plays how we also already wanted to play, meaning weve also already got players weve invested in who suit that, and youth coming through whove been coached to play that way also, were miles ahead. Its so sensible im suprised more people arent all for it, especially after watching fenty give someone a rubbish budget, sack them for not doing well, getting someone else in and them inexplicably then be able to fund a mid season desperate squad rebuild because the manager had a complete different set of ideas. Old fashioned football idealogy is stupid and it didnt matter when we used to casually rollercoaster up and down the leagues but the whole budget just came from gate receipts, times have simply changed.

I mentioned the other day that Hurst is the least qualified manager for the incremtal improvement approach which has been mentioned many times, and the approach you have just outlined would seem to suit their philosophy much better.

For all his strengths,  PH did not have a set style and all his many signings were not brought in to enhance any particular format,  and the current squad typifies a team brought together but not knowing really how they are expected to play.

The owners will not want to decide what style of play to adopt, and will want to leave that to a football man who can then get a head coach who also believes in that way of playing so it does make more sense and will start to give the club a much needed identity.

If that is their approach I am all for it but a big downside to it is sometimes egos get in the way but I am sure they will be a clear differention of who is in control of what from the outset.

Quoted from WOZOFGRIMSBY

Mate of mine Is an Ipswich fan and the rumours over there are that we’ve had a conversation club to club about the availability of Brian klug

As I say, just rumours. No knowledgeable source or anything just am guessing, the fishy equivalent in east anglia

I don't know if this is true, but i'm sure he grew up in Grimsby? Maybe Jason knows him personally but a mate of mine is also an Ipswich fan and says he'd be a great appointment as he was the head of coaching and player development. I'm not sure if the rumour is true but i'm pretty sure he grew up in the area.

Quoted from LocalLadGTFC

I don't know if this is true, but i'm sure he grew up in Grimsby? Maybe Jason knows him personally but a mate of mine is also an Ipswich fan and says he'd be a great appointment as he's currently the head of coaching and player development. I'm not sure if the rumour is true but i'm pretty sure he grew up in the area.

He is a GRIMSBY man and played for GRIMSBY Boys about 10 years after my husband did and he is 75 now.

So that makes him  in his 60's now so can not see him being a manager for the first time at his age.

Quoted from chrissy

He is a GRIMSBY man and played for GRIMSBY Boys about 10 years after my husband did and he is 75 now.

So that makes him  in his 60's now so can not see him being a manager for the first time at his age.

Wasn't speaking about being a manager mate, more fulfilling the head of football role. It's the role he held at Ipswich for some time.

Quoted from Mikey_345

As for backroom staff - I think we fail to realise sometimes our staff is unusually large compared to some L2 clubs. I remember the Fenty days when a manager turned up just with his assistant and off they went (glad we’ve progressed).

Interesting comment that.

In the past when did we sack an assistant manager ?

For that matter, I seem to remember various back room staff around the place well before 1878.  

Ben Mortlock.
Steve Croudson or another when he had a spell at Lincoln
Ben David
Greg Howard
Various analysts came and went

But don’t spoil a narrative with facts

Quoted from LocalLadGTFC

I don't know if this is true, but i'm sure he grew up in Grimsby? Maybe Jason knows him personally but a mate of mine is also an Ipswich fan and says he'd be a great appointment as he's currently the head of coaching and player development. I'm not sure if the rumour is true but i'm pretty sure he grew up in the area.

He did think he was a town junior n left for Ipswich in the mid 70s.been at Ipswich for 25 years, so would be a helluva wrench for him. Interesting tho,  given the only other gossip/rumour concerns a director of footballer rather than manager.

Quoted from LocalLadGTFC

I don't know if this is true, but i'm sure he grew up in Grimsby? Maybe Jason knows him personally but a mate of mine is also an Ipswich fan and says he'd be a great appointment as he's currently the head of coaching and player development. I'm not sure if the rumour is true but i'm pretty sure he grew up in the area.

Born in Coventry according to Wiki, that said loads of football experience and oddly enough caretaker before PH arrived at Portman, wouldn’t it be bizarre if PH had but him on 1878s radar?

The good thing is that there are many more Coaches than there are Managers, so there could well be some very good Coaches from Premier League teams, or their Under 21's, who might be interested in becoming a Head Coach

At the end of the day, it's just a title, a label. They will be in charge of the team be it as a manager or head coach. Don't think there is a difference.

Quoted from mimma

At the end of the day, it's just a title, a label. They will be in charge of the team be it as a manager or head coach. Don't think there is a difference.

It’s not though is it. A manager assumes wider control and responsibilities including recruitment, budgets and other personnel. The head coach more often than not reports to a technical director or a director of football, as is part of a much wider decision-making process regarding recruitment and structure of a club. A head coach is brought in to suit the existing philosophy in regard to personnel and playing style. A manager is responsible for shaping that.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Born in Coventry according to Wiki, that said loads of football experience and oddly enough caretaker before PH arrived at Portman, wouldn’t it be bizarre if PH had but him on 1878s radar?

He grew up in Grimsby and played at Clee Juniors at the same time as me, which makes him about 64. No doubt he has done very well in youth development and coaching generally but I just cannot see him moving at his age.

Widely reported that Paul Hurst was given 100% control for all first-team footballing matters.

So in effect he was (nearly) a Director of Football/Head Coach/Manager all rolled into one.

Perhaps the owners have decided that's too much for one individual, and are planning accordingly. Think I'd agree.

As I understand the role, the idea is that the DoF remains in place as the Head Coaches come and go.
No reason (that I can see) why this couldn't work provided the owners have 100% faith in the DoF.
But what seems to happen more often is that when the Head Coach gets fired, the DoF who was responsible for the appointment
gets the bullet too.

In which case the DoF simply becomes the fall-guy for the owners when things turn sour.
"It's not our fault the Head Coach was a serial loser, the DoF appointed him..." (and hope no-one asks who appointed the DoF).

I give credit to Jason and Andrew for being prepared to try different ideas.

UTM

Sorry Davmariner, I have to disagree.
When Fergie was manager of Man. Utd he had complete control over everything, but was the manager, not coach.
All clubs have a structure where there is someone in overall charge of the team, coaches and players, and usually will have an assistant.
DOF is different.  That is someone co-opted onto the board with a detailed knowledge of the game, ex player for example. Football boards are made up of businessmen with money with no knowledge of football so the DOF is vital for the board to be able to make proper disisions when it comes to running a football club.

Personally, don’t like the DoF/Head Coach model but would be ok with it if it works.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

I mentioned the other day that Hurst is the least qualified manager for the incremtal improvement approach which has been mentioned many times, and the approach you have just outlined would seem to suit their philosophy much better.

For all his strengths,  PH did not have a set style and all his many signings were not brought in to enhance any particular format,  and the current squad typifies a team brought together but not knowing really how they are expected to play.

The owners will not want to decide what style of play to adopt, and will want to leave that to a football man who can then get a head coach who also believes in that way of playing so it does make more sense and will start to give the club a much needed identity.

If that is their approach I am all for it but a big downside to it is sometimes egos get in the way but I am sure they will be a clear differention of who is in control of what from the outset.

Where within a managers CV does it have any reference to how good they are/have been on incremental improvement? How do you quantify incremental improvement? How on earth do you arrive at PH being the least qualified?

Any manager that gets employed at any club will want to win games. That's it. There's a recognition that it is highly unlikely that you won't, each division is competitive in it's own right by design and you won't win everything, you just aim to win as many as you can, nothing we don't already know. At no club do the owners or managers say "we'd like you to only win this many this season, and then next season we want this many wins and the season after we want this many wins so we can showcase incremental improvement".

In my eyes, incremental improvement has nothing to do with the points on the board, it's to do with the culture and ethos - mainly on the playing side - but of the club as a whole.

If you look back to Newell and the urine artists he had in and the way we played, referencing the Paul Linwood podcast feature where he outright admitted that players didn't care, to the Bignot era when players didn't like him then you can see how a poor culture does nothing to encourage a belief that you will progress and can readily contribute to a decline in on-pitch performance as a result of poor standards.

PH Mk1 had us improving year on year. At no point in his first 5/6 years could you say that his playing staff take their foot off, that he coasted or that we saw a decline in standards, he constantly pushed for more and if the rumours are to be believed then it was JF not supporting his desire to keep progressing that caused him to move to Shrewsbury. How you viewed the football is open to individuals but as a club overall, PH halted the decline and built some foundations that provided the platform for us to go forwards rather than continue backwards.

After he left, slowly but surely different managers changed and those foundations were eroded. When he came back we were all over the place and although he couldn't save us, he again built foundations very quickly alongside 1878 that helped us achieve promotion at the first time of asking and then progress us to our highest place finish in years and an FA Cup quarter final. Whether you liked PH in either spell for his football, I don't think it can be argued that his ship was a tight one and he at the very least brought stability to a club that has sailed stormy seas for much of the last 20 years.

Everything mentioned above - in my opinion - is proven by the fact that we're all sat here now recognising that the team we have is capable of much more. The stability and foundations he has provided have effectively proven to be his own sword to fall on. We believe we should be challenging much higher, some even of the belief for play-offs as a result of the improvements PH has made. To say that PH is the least qualified for incremental improvement completely ignores the fact that he has pushed our ceiling of expectation higher than any point in the last 20 years, if that isn't incremental improvement then I'm not sure what is.

Edit: Quarter final not semi final - confusing reality with dreams.

Quoted from mimma

Sorry Davmariner, I have to disagree.
When Fergie was manager of Man. Utd he had complete control over everything, but was the manager, not coach.
All clubs have a structure where there is someone in overall charge of the team, coaches and players, and usually will have an assistant.
DOF is different.  That is someone co-opted onto the board with a detailed knowledge of the game, ex player for example. Football boards are made up of businessmen with money with no knowledge of football so the DOF is vital for the board to be able to make proper disisions when it comes to running a football club.

I think the issue with any club operating at L1 or below, and especially much smaller clubs like ourselves if you place all of your eggs in one basket then every time you change the manager if it isn't working then you effectively start from scratch every time.

Imagine if Fergie didn't win that infamous FA Cup tie, what would have happened to United then? Completely unknown. In modern times I don't believe there is, or ever will be another one of him. Someone who dictates the level of control at any club based on the success he has delivered.

I can see why 1878 would go down the DOF route. When they talk about long term planning and with Joe Hutchison and the data aspects we've brought to the club, it's clear that our recruitment and our model will be similar to that of Peterborough or any other club who unearth gem players, benefit from their talents whilst here and then sell for profit.

If you give a manager 100% control, if it doesn't work out then everything gets recycled and he'll inevitably want to bring his own players in and we constantly go round in circles. The idea of DOF and Head Coach is that a team will be responsible for identifying an ethos of how we play (within reason - I doubt it will dictate every fine detail of HOW it must be done), and they'll sign players that fit the profile. I've said before it looks like we're trying to be more expansive and possession based, perhaps this is by design of the hierarchy and is the friction in how it hasn't quite worked?

The Head Coach has the responsibility to then work with the players he's provided with and nurture them into a successful team. If he does, brilliant everyones happy. If he doesn't then a new coach is sought but the consistency of the long term plan is held by the DOF and the recruitment team.

I'd believe that there will be a high level of involvement between the two, there's no benefit to being mutually exclusive so I'd bet that a lot of things are worked on together but again, that long term consistency that you can't guarantee with a manager you can achieve with a DOF.

This is the thing with 'improvement'.  It means different things to different people.

Are we talking the number of fans coming through the gates, the style of football, the quality of the players, the league position, the bank balance, the general feel and atmosphere at the club?

Some of those you can measure very easily with numbers, others are much more difficult and why consultants will charge a very large fee to give you a metric of such (often still open to much ambiguity).

If we are are looking at the number of fans coming to watch us and indeed the bank balance, then Hurst has definitely played a huge part in moving us on a notch or two.  League position wise...as much as I like Hurst I'm genuinely not sure you can argue he has.  I do believe he was on a hiding to nothing when he first came back but we're in a very similar league position to where he picked us up from.

In his first spell I would say it was more a case of us consistently knocking at the door and eventually we fell through it rather than getting better year on year.  In a bizarre way and despite having two quality strikers that season, I felt the side that actually got promoted was the lesser of the ones from the two seasons before it.  14/15 was the team that I felt really should have gone up of all of them.

In his defence, incremental improvement wasn't the remit in his first spell.  It was all about promotion with no future planning at all.   I'm not gonna slate the guy for not improving us year on year because his margin for movement was so slim and the focus was heavily aligned to getting us out that godforsaken league.

To my mind he's had 3 opportunities to move us on a level, player wise.

Summer of 2016 - He failed.  His recruitment weakened us.  Of course his hands were tied, Fenty interfering in deals for Amond and Arnold, not getting an increased budget etc. etc.  But considering we lost the likes of Amond, Arnold, Clay, Toto and replaced them Vernon, Chambers, Berrett and Boyce is a huge downgrade.

Summer of 2022 - He failed.  The failure was lesser so here but to my eyes we definitely didn't upgrade from the side that got us promoted.  Fox out for Hunt (?) hasn't worked out.  I still don't think we've properly replaced Sousa as a winger who can carry play for 30/40 yards upfield, we didn't get an effective targetman in so were left with a spent force in Ryan Taylor.

Summer of 2023 - Individually, without question.  Collectively, no.  Certainly not when reflecting how he's used them.  Mullarkey, Rodgers, Conteh, Eisa, Rose, I think Wilson too are all improvements on what we've had with attributes we've lacked.  But that they couldn't effectively play together in a Hurst way has to go down as a downgrade.  If the side that started against Doncaster 2 days ago started against the side that played Doncaster 7 months ago, I know which side is winning.  That's not down to individual ability, it's about the cohesion of the unit, their collective knowledge of the job at hand and their ability to work together.

I think what we will be able to do in the future, with the wonderful benefit of hindsight is say that Hurst significantly and consistently improved what the club is overall.  3 years ago we were a laughing stock and clubs were recalling loan players because of bad feedback from young lads just left to struggle on their own in bedsits with crap training.  Today we've got a reputation as a club that looks after young players and develops them.  There's a reason Hull loaned us Harvey Cartwright, it's because we did a good job with Andy Smith for two consecutive season.  There's a reason Luton were happy to loan John McAtee back to us, because word gets round that we look after players.  There's a reason Hurst has been able to attract a seemingly higher calibre of player this summer, because our reputation as a football club has improved.  

Quoted from gtfc_chris

Where within a managers CV does it have any reference to how good they are/have been on incremental improvement? How do you quantify incremental improvement? How on earth do you arrive at PH being the least qualified?

Any manager that gets employed at any club will want to win games. That's it. There's a recognition that it is highly unlikely that you won't, each division is competitive in it's own right by design and you won't win everything, you just aim to win as many as you can, nothing we don't already know. At no club do the owners or managers say "we'd like you to only win this many this season, and then next season we want this many wins and the season after we want this many wins so we can showcase incremental improvement".

In my eyes, incremental improvement has nothing to do with the points on the board, it's to do with the culture and ethos - mainly on the playing side - but of the club as a whole.

If you look back to Newell and the urine artists he had in and the way we played, referencing the Paul Linwood podcast feature where he outright admitted that players didn't care, to the Bignot era when players didn't like him then you can see how a poor culture does nothing to encourage a belief that you will progress and can readily contribute to a decline in on-pitch performance as a result of poor standards.

PH Mk1 had us improving year on year. At no point in his first 5/6 years could you say that his playing staff take their foot off, that he coasted or that we saw a decline in standards, he constantly pushed for more and if the rumours are to be believed then it was JF not supporting his desire to keep progressing that caused him to move to Shrewsbury. How you viewed the football is open to individuals but as a club overall, PH halted the decline and built some foundations that provided the platform for us to go forwards rather than continue backwards.

After he left, slowly but surely different managers changed and those foundations were eroded. When he came back we were all over the place and although he couldn't save us, he again built foundations very quickly alongside 1878 that helped us achieve promotion at the first time of asking and then progress us to our highest place finish in years and an FA Cup quarter final. Whether you liked PH in either spell for his football, I don't think it can be argued that his ship was a tight one and he at the very least brought stability to a club that has sailed stormy seas for much of the last 20 years.

Everything mentioned above - in my opinion - is proven by the fact that we're all sat here now recognising that the team we have is capable of much more. The stability and foundations he has provided have effectively proven to be his own sword to fall on. We believe we should be challenging much higher, some even of the belief for play-offs as a result of the improvements PH has made. To say that PH is the least qualified for incremental improvement completely ignores the fact that he has pushed our ceiling of expectation higher than any point in the last 20 years, if that isn't incremental improvement then I'm not sure what is.

Edit: Quarter final not semi final - confusing reality with dreams.

I read incremental improvements to mean the club as a whole by the owners, and on the playing side by a manager who would gradually improve the squad in terms of quality and the teams method of playing.

I said PH was least qualified because his method of operating is to keep bringing in and then discarding a huge number of players rather than making incremental improvement, say by coaching what seems to be decent players when they were brought in.

Had he stayed we would have started the process again in January.

This is one reason why he was sacked - there have been no incremental improvements on the playing side despite increased budgets. They will try to circumvent this problem in future by bringing in a head coach who without shed loads of money will produce incremental improvements in the team, and importantly existing players. If indeed that is their plan. That's the way I've interpreted it anyway.

With regards the term Head Coach, I'm absolutely certain it's not a case of semantics.  

1878 are always well measured and very articulate in what they say.  They could have issued a statement with no mention of Head Coach or Manager at all, just saying that in the interm Ben Davies and Shaun Pearson are in charge.  No-one would have batted an eyelid at that.

It's very deliberate and the start of a new way of working, albeit as someone else has said Hurst was effectively the DoF anyway with complete control.   If someone does have that oversight and total remit, it makes sense that they're not the coach of the side too.  As with this situation of Hurst leaving, all his ideas and his thoughts leave with him when he goes.  If it's a culture we're trying to build, it has to be more than the guy who's picking the 11 on a Saturday.

Instead of calling it incremental improvement I would call it ambition. Fenty had a distinct lack of it, whereas now we have it. The only going holding us back is finance

There has been no mention of Debbie Cook in this thread.

Does she think PH was too stretched in his wide role? Did some of his signings not fit a longer term plan? Did she see a consistent and well defined playing style? Did PH allow lack of performance go unchecked and his only approach was work harder…….

Comparing it to Englands abysmal cricket performance of late. Their only response seems to be to bash the ball harder, not better?

I could be very wrong here, so correct me if I am.  Do we not have someone who sits on the board as an advisor who was/is one of the best Director of Football in the World.  I don't remember his name now, but I believe he may have had some connections with Saudi FA and Chelsea.

Quoted from 123614

I could be very wrong here, so correct me if I am.  Do we not have someone who sits on the board as an advisor who was/is one of the best Director of Football in the World.  I don't remember his name now, but I believe he may have had some connections with Saudi FA and Chelsea.

Gareth Jennings who, since joining the board, has helpfully updated his Wikipedia page:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gareth_Jennings

So do we not have one half of the DoF/Head Coach already sitting at a table at Blundell Park?

Get the luck then any system, managment combination can work.

Don’t get the luck (rub) then all is rubbished, players and managment alike.

Big test for the N/O’s. I do not envy them as they have set themselves up to potentially fail with all the blurb. Profesional investors/values/data etc.

Nothing to reinvent in this lottery of club ownership.

All fine lines at the end of the day.

We are a keeper off have being in the mix in all fairness!! IMHO

Hurst needed the window to put it right, and I suspect true to form, if given time, then he would have got it right.

Quoted from 123614

So do we not have one half of the DoF/Head Coach already sitting at the table at Blundell Park?

No, hes moved way on from that! But he is probably one of the foremost experts in world football on that role, which, some other bits n pieces, lead me to think we ate going down that road

Quoted from forza ivano

No, he's moved way on from that! But he is probably one of the foremost experts in world football on that role, which, some other bits n pieces, lead me to think we ate going down that road

So he would be available to give advice maybe, something that I believe he sits on the Board for, but this time advice on a DoF and a Head Coach as opposed to players?  I can't imagine him being part of the club and not having his massive knowledge tapped in the coming weeks.  Maybe he has already been asked of his opinions, I guess we will never know.

I think we will know BAWB and we'll certainly feel it in the coming weeks and months.

Put it this way, I see it that 1878 have seen something they like but have absolutely no clue how to go about it, nor should they have any idea.  Jennings and/or his colleagues will have floated an approach, a philosophy, a culture that he/they have been involved with before and implemented successfully elsewhere.  1878 have gobbled that line up and invited Twenty First Group in to install that approach here.

Jennings was probably so good at doing that Sporting Director type role that he's gone above it now, he's more the King Maker than the King itself.  With his experience, he can now help others put that model into place.  He doesn't need day-to-day handle on it because he can cherry pick the bits that he needs to be involved with, groom others to do the stuff that don't challenge him and therefore spread himself across more than one business.

It's consultancy 101.  We can mask it up however we like it, but we've got consultants in to shape the future direction of the club.

Quoted from IlkleyMariner

There has been no mention of Debbie Cook in this thread.

Does she think PH was too stretched in his wide role? Did some of his signings not fit a longer term plan? Did she see a consistent and well defined playing style? Did PH allow lack of performance go unchecked and his only approach was work harder…….

Comparing it to Englands abysmal cricket performance of late. Their only response seems to be to bash the ball harder, not better?

I would think if Debbie had anything to say about Hurst she would have voiced her opinions to the board and only to the board.

Quoted from diehardmariner

I think we will know BAWB and we'll certainly feel it in the coming weeks and months.

Put it this way, I see it that 1878 have seen something they like but have absolutely no clue how to go about it, nor should they have any idea.  Jennings and/or his colleagues will have floated an approach, a philosophy, a culture that he/they have been involved with before and implemented successfully elsewhere.  1878 have gobbled that line up and invited Twenty First Group in to install that approach here.

Jennings was probably so good at doing that Sporting Director type role that he's gone above it now, he's more the King Maker than the King itself.  With his experience, he can now help others put that model into place.  He doesn't need day-to-day handle on it because he can cherry pick the bits that he needs to be involved with, groom others to do the stuff that don't challenge him and therefore spread himself across more than one business.

It's consultancy 101.  We can mask it up however we like it, but we've got consultants in to shape the future direction of the club.

Exactly my thoughts.gold star!

Quoted from diehardmariner

I think we will know BAWB and we'll certainly feel it in the coming weeks and months.

Put it this way, I see it that 1878 have seen something they like but have absolutely no clue how to go about it, nor should they have any idea.  Jennings and/or his colleagues will have floated an approach, a philosophy, a culture that he/they have been involved with before and implemented successfully elsewhere.  1878 have gobbled that line up and invited Twenty First Group in to install that approach here.

Jennings was probably so good at doing that Sporting Director type role that he's gone above it now, he's more the King Maker than the King itself.  With his experience, he can now help others put that model into place.  He doesn't need day-to-day handle on it because he can cherry pick the bits that he needs to be involved with, groom others to do the stuff that don't challenge him and therefore spread himself across more than one business.

It's consultancy 101.  We can mask it up however we like it, but we've got consultants in to shape the future direction of the club.

Consultants ask you the time and then tell you what the time is, the abundantly obvious. If that the way to be, then 1878 will need to reach deep in their pockets.

Quoted from GibMariner

Consultants ask you the time and then tell you what the time is, the abundantly obvious. If that the way to be, then 1878 will need to reach deep in their pockets.

I don't disagree with your view of consultants but it has to be a good thing that the future of the club is being shaped and that a strategy is being considered by thoughtful people thinking beyond the immediate short term.

Previous managerial appointments were based on who was cheapest and would work in an environment of penny pinching mediocrity.

I've seen consultancy done well and I've seen it done badly.  I don't think 1878 will suffer fools from fancy presentations and slick suits.

I think the time analogy isn't the worst one, more often than not the answer is already in-house but the existing structure doesn't know how to get it out/what to do with it.  A common criticism of consultants is that they don't tell you anything you don't already know, so why did you ask them in the first place then?  That you've come to the same answer as them but haven't done anything with it probably indicates that the problem is closer to home than you think.  

If we, as a club, or any business for that matter bring in consultants with a wide and ambiguous remit I pretty much guarantee that we'll get a wide and ambiguous finding that tells us obvious stuff but with no real direction on how to address it.  

However, I expect the remit to Twenty First Group is quite specific with a desired and measurable output and we'll therefore be bringing people in to help us do something different to make that improvement.  Good consultants are expensive, but if used right they're a good investment. Really good consultants help you identify problems and come up with your own solutions, so you don't have to use them again.

Quoted from GibMariner

Consultants ask you the time and then tell you what the time is, the abundantly obvious. If that the way to be, then 1878 will need to reach deep in their pockets.

The quote should be "A consultant will ask to borrow your watch, tell you what the time is, then charge you an extortionate fee for the information". I know - I was that soldier!

Quoted from forza ivano

No, hes moved way on from that! But he is probably one of the foremost experts in world football on that role, which, some other bits n pieces, lead me to think we ate going down that road

Is he? Consulting roles at Wales, New Zealand and now UAE hardly shout foremost expert in world football, but he wouldn't be here if he was.

He's been academy director at some good clubs, but not sure what that role really does.

If he's not getting paid for being here, then it's a steal. But if we're paying for consultancy then I highly doubt it's cheap or value for money.

I get that we're trying to be forward thinking and different to other teams at this level, but I feel like this is going to be a very expensive experiment that could go very wrong if it doesn't reap rewards quickly.

Disappointed that nobody from the club was willing to go on Radio Humberside and explain the reasoning behind this new change in direction.

Fans are quite rightly concerned because we get relegated to non-league for the third time in our history if this goes wrong.

Quoted from pen penfras

If he's not getting paid for being here, then it's a steal. But if we're paying for consultancy then I highly doubt it's cheap or value for money.

I get that we're trying to be forward thinking and different to other teams at this level, but I feel like this is going to be a very expensive experiment that could go very wrong if it doesn't reap rewards quickly.

He is doing the role on a voluntary basis. He spoke extensively about his history and role at the club during an interview with Radio Humberside. If I remember rightly he had got to a point in his career where he wanted to give something back and work with, what he believed, to be an up and coming club and with owners who shared his philosophy and values. He stated that he is doing the role out of a want to do the right thing, for the right reasons.

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

I don't disagree with your view of consultants but it has to be a good thing that the future of the club is being shaped and that a strategy is being considered by thoughtful people thinking beyond the immediate short term.

Previous managerial appointments were based on who was cheapest and would work in an environment of penny pinching mediocrity.

Evidence for that. Although that fits the narrative again.

Has any manager ever complained about the budget.

Has any manager been denied brining players in the Jan window.

Just saying.

Quoted from GibMariner

Evidence for that. Although that fits the narrative again.

Has any manager ever complained about the budget.

Has any manager been denied brining players in the Jan window.

Just saying.

Jolley got caught moaning about the budget on the secret recording. Hurst left previously because he was denied basic back room staff - don’t think we even had a fitness coach during his last spell. There are countless stories from ex-players, everyone from John McDermott to Rob Jones & Martin Gritton has mentioned how the previous owners needled them & chipped away either just to save a few measly quid or took advantage of individuals’ circumstances. The stories of Fenty’s penny pinching are well documented by Cod Almighty - everything from him trying to reuse ice from a local cold store in the players’ ice baths to driving around Cheapside in a digger to save a few quid.  

This will be the first appointment not made by Fenty in going on two decades. Thank Christ.

Quoted from ska face

Jolley got caught moaning about the budget on the secret recording. Hurst left previously because he was denied basic back room staff - don’t think we even had a fitness coach during his last spell. There are countless stories from ex-players, everyone from John McDermott to Rob Jones & Martin Gritton has mentioned how the previous owners needled them & chipped away either just to save a few measly quid or took advantage of individuals’ circumstances. The stories of Fenty’s penny pinching are well documented by Cod Almighty - everything from him trying to reuse ice from a local cold store in the players’ ice baths to driving around Cheapside in a digger to save a few quid.  

This will be the first appointment not made by Fenty in going on two decades. Thank Christ.

We lost our top goalscorer from the NL because we wouldn't offer him 50 extra quid...  

Quoted from WOZOFGRIMSBY

Mate of mine Is an Ipswich fan and the rumours over there are that we’ve had a conversation club to club about the availability of Brian klug

As I say, just rumours. No knowledgeable source or anything just am guessing, the fishy equivalent in east anglia

Or mor likely about Mark Kennedy who was Klugs assistant.

Quoted from GibMariner

Evidence for that. Although that fits the narrative again.

Has any manager ever complained about the budget.

Has any manager been denied brining players in the Jan window.

Just saying.

It was literally the reason Hurst left for Shrewsbury the first time.

Quoted from GibMariner

Evidence for that. Although that fits the narrative again.

Has any manager ever complained about the budget.

Has any manager been denied brining players in the Jan window.

Just saying.

You been living under a rock?..
Jolley worked for 6 months for free, he then got caught absolutely slating the state of his playing budget, in a foul moth rant.
We lost Amond due Fenty changing the terms of his contract, one player turned round his csr on the way to sign after Fenty called him and reneged on a deal.

Quoted from LocalLadGTFC

We lost our top goalscorer from the NL because we wouldn't offer him 50 extra quid...  

Lost Arnold for same reason, only it was £15 a week he wanted, to cover his extra fuel costs,

Quoted from pen penfras

Is he? Consulting roles at Wales, New Zealand and now UAE hardly shout foremost expert in world football, but he wouldn't be here if he was.

He's been academy director at some good clubs, but not sure what that role really does.

If he's not getting paid for being here, then it's a steal. But if we're paying for consultancy then I highly doubt it's cheap or value for money.

I get that we're trying to be forward thinking and different to other teams at this level, but I feel like this is going to be a very expensive experiment that could go very wrong if it doesn't reap rewards quickly.

Oh dear Pen.if you're going to quote me, then at least have the decency to quote me properly. You somehow missed out the words ' world authority ON THAT ROLE'. And I think, having been for over 2 years, FIFAs head of technical leadership , that it's not an unjustifiable claim. I suspect it would be difficult to find anyone with more all round knowledge of what the role entails, how it works well, why it doesnt work  plus how a structure is established and what sort of people make good technical directors
As someone else said hes a part time unpaid director, so hes hardly a drag on resources. Perhaps you think wed be better off without him, n maybe 1878 should consult JSF ,with his extensive knowledge  and success in appointing managers?

Quoted from GibMariner

Get the luck then any system, managment combination can work.

Don’t get the luck (rub) then all is rubbished, players and managment alike.

Big test for the N/O’s. I do not envy them as they have set themselves up to potentially fail with all the blurb. Profesional investors/values/data etc.

Nothing to reinvent in this lottery of club ownership.

All fine lines at the end of the day.

We are a keeper off have being in the mix in all fairness!! IMHO

Hurst needed the window to put it right, and I suspect true to form, if given time, then he would have got it right.

So are you saying he spent one of our biggest player budgets on players that aren't good enough so he would have had the January window to spend more cash on replacing the players he brought in in the summer?

Plus I think we need more than just another goalkeeper.

Quoted from jamesgtfc

Disappointed that nobody from the club was willing to go on Radio Humberside and explain the reasoning behind this new change in direction.

Fans are quite rightly concerned because we get relegated to non-league for the third time in our history if this goes wrong.

I know what you're saying but I'm kinda glad they didn't rock up to give their say.

It'll be an unpopular opinion but I'm a little tired of hearing Stockwood give his thoughts on every little matter at the club, Debbie Cook too to a lesser degree.  Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the transparency and I think he's an incredibly articulate and generally just a decent bloke within that a good listen for the majority of it.  But there's often not a lot extra he can say and it feels like as a fanbase we're just desperate to hear from him in the hope he drops something in that we're not aware of.

I think the interviews with him are less now and I imagine that's intentional.  The poor bloke must be tired of coming out with the same lines to the same questions every few months.

I get that this is a big issue and in some ways a monumental moment for the club.  But I prefer them keeping everything quiet, trusting what they're doing and then having a say on it once it's done and dusted.  I've downloaded the show and will listen to it later, but I imagine most of it will just be noise like we've got on here. Opinions, hopes and fears etc.  Not sure what else Stockwood (or anyone else from the club) could add to what they've already said.

With regards the decision and worry that if we get it wrong we could be relegated, well that's the risk regardless.  What I would say is that in the last decade and a bit we've become a boom and bust side, yo-yo-ing between tiers 4 and 5.  Perhaps stability that comes from a different approach might go some way to addressing that.

Quoted from GibMariner

Evidence for that. Although that fits the narrative again.

Has any manager ever complained about the budget.

Has any manager been denied brining players in the Jan window.

Just saying.

Scott, we aint got no f money

Quoted from arryarryarry

So are you saying he spent one of our biggest player budgets on players that aren't good enough so he would have had the January window to spend more cash on replacing the players he brought in in the summer?

Plus I think we need more than just another goalkeeper.

Having a fresh set of eyes on the squad, and the new manager bringing in his own favoured signings could work in our favour..

I wonder if 1878 regretted giving Hurst as much control as they did in his contract, and this could be why they may be opting for a DOF and Head Coach this time round.

Quoted from Northbank Mariner

You been living under a rock?..
Jolley worked for 6 months for free, he then got caught absolutely slating the state of his playing budget, in a foul moth rant.
We lost Amond due Fenty changing the terms of his contract, one player turned round his csr on the way to sign after Fenty called him and reneged on a deal.

Have you got a link to that rant ? I have always wanted to listen again for amusement - wasn't it something like 'Rob straightone is a fekin sharp shooter , you (Dean or Tondeur )) and Burns are fekin a disgrace ' or something like that , along with loads of other expletives ?

My favourite is still Rob Scott asking a big lad at the front of The Ponny to 'put his hand in his pocket and buy another pie then , cos we ain't got no fekin money !' Golden

Quoted from Mappers

Have you got a link to that rant ? I have always wanted to listen again for amusement - wasn't it something like 'Rob straightone is a fekin sharp shooter , you (Dean or Tondeur )) and Burns are fekin a disgrace ' or something like that , along with loads of other expletives ?

My favourite is still Rob Scott asking a big lad at the front of The Ponny to 'put his hand in his pocket and buy another pie then , cos we ain't got no fekin money !' Golden

"If you dont likle it don't F-in come"

Quoted from WayneBurnettsJockstrap

I wonder if 1878 regretted giving Hurst as much control as they did in his contract, and this could be why they may be opting for a DOF and Head Coach this time round.

He actually said they were not going the DOF route.