Hurst v Holloway (In the dugout)

I’ve looked at some stats based upon the number of games Hurst and Holloway stood in the dugout.

There’s a couple of games neither were present, and to be fair to Hurst, until he started to bring in his own players and that was complete by end of Jan, he was saddled with Holloway’s dross.

Holloway:
Played 19
Goals For 17
Goals Against 32
GD -15

Hurst:
Played 12
Goals For 5
Goals Against 15
GD -10

As I’ve said, Hurst was saddled with Holloway’s players for much of January, early on suffering a couple of 3 nils whilst getting to know his team. Arguably that gives him a -6 goal disadvantage so to speak

If you look at Hursts last 9 games, he’s never lost by more than a single goal.

But there’s no doubt that goals have dried up.

I know Hurst now has an analyist on board. It must be jumping off the page that the problem is that we DO NOT create enough clear goal scoring opportunities when we have the ball.

Getting that sorted is our one and only hope of performing the great escape, assuming Barrow, Colchester and Port Vale can get back to their consistent bad form, which they may well do.

Add to the above that Holloway’s team ineptitude was also at its height when being knocked out of the FA Cup with a 3-1 embarrassment v Dagenham and Redbridge

Now we have the defence sorted we only need one goal to win.

Quoted from chrissy

Now we have the defence sorted we only need one goal to win.

Win every game 1-0 and you walk the league!

(Pedant alert: Hurst has had 13 games now, not 12)

At this point its pretty irrelevant comparing goal difference. The only stat that matters is points gained.

Sadly, we get zero points for a 1-0 loss just the same as a 0-3 loss. Of course I get that it's better to not be losing games by bigger margins, but we're still not winning games. And it worries me that Hurst's points per game ratio of 0.54 is worse than Holloways ratio (this season only) of 1 point per game.

Holloway’s PPG might have been even better if he’d not completely fuckedup pre-season. He could have then runaway with a better cushion to keep us out of the bottom two.

Quoted from Fillipe Noche

I’ve looked at some stats based upon the number of games Hurst and Holloway stood in the dugout.

There’s a couple of games neither were present, and to be fair to Hurst, until he started to bring in his own players and that was complete by end of Jan, he was saddled with Holloway’s dross.

Holloway:
Played 19
Goals For 17
Goals Against 32
GD -15

Hurst:
Played 12
Goals For 5
Goals Against 15
GD -10

As I’ve said, Hurst was saddled with Holloway’s players for much of January, early on suffering a couple of 3 nils whilst getting to know his team. Arguably that gives him a -6 goal disadvantage so to speak

If you look at Hursts last 9 games, he’s never lost by more than a single goal.

But there’s no doubt that goals have dried up.

I know Hurst now has an analyist on board. It must be jumping off the page that the problem is that we DO NOT create enough clear goal scoring opportunities when we have the ball.

Getting that sorted is our one and only hope of performing the great escape, assuming Barrow, Colchester and Port Vale can get back to their consistent bad form, which they may well do.

Add to the above that Holloway’s team ineptitude was also at its height when being knocked out of the FA Cup with a 3-1 embarrassment v Dagenham and Redbridge

Pretty sure that an analyst isnt needed to work that one out.

Quoted from moosey_club

Pretty sure that an analyst isnt needed to work that one out.

It’s not like the regime to misunderstand what modern sports coaching and management is about.

Fenty probably thought a strength and conditioning coach is to do with hair products.

When you are in a lifeboat, having escaped the Titanic, it matters not a jot why the Titanic sank.  Whether an iceberg or rocks.  The outcome is the same.

I don't really blame Hurst for not going all gung-ho attacking, as I think we'd quickly be back to getting pasted by big scores. The main thing that frustrates me is we don't seem to have any pre-thought out / practiced routines on attacking set pieces. I get the distinct impression ther are no set routines and its all off the cuff and badly executed. If you're struggling for goals from open play, then at the very least make yourself dangerous from set plays.

Quoted from Tommy

(Pedant alert: Hurst has had 13 games now, not 12)

At this point its pretty irrelevant comparing goal difference. The only stat that matters is points gained.

Sadly, we get zero points for a 1-0 loss just the same as a 0-3 loss. Of course I get that it's better to not be losing games by bigger margins, but we're still not winning games. And it worries me that Hurst's points per game ratio of 0.54 is worse than Holloways ratio (this season only) of 1 point per game.

I didn’t include the first game as it was practically on the day he joined

Holloway only stayed to make lots of money when the fraudster was rumbled he did a runner and left us in the poo let's just be thankful we still have a club even though PH is having a tough time I wouldn't want media seeking Kuss  back even if he saved us abs W

Quoted from Fillipe Noche

I didn’t include the first game as it was practically on the day he joined

I get fed up of excuses.

Quoted from TownSNAFU5

When you are in a lifeboat, having escaped the Titanic, it matters not a jot why the Titanic sank.  Whether an iceberg or rocks.  The outcome is the same.

You have lost me......seagulls, trawlers etc.

Quoted from TownSNAFU5

When you are in a lifeboat, having escaped the Titanic, it matters not a jot why the Titanic sank.  Whether an iceberg or rocks.  The outcome is the same.

I can be deep but this is Barry White bass-baritoning from the bottom of the Mariana Trench.

Quoted from Knut Anders Fosters Voles

I can be deep but this is Barry White bass-baritoning from the bottom of the Mariana Trench.

As deep as JF's pockets......



if only he didnt have such short arms  

Quoted from Knut Anders Fosters Voles

I can be deep but this is Barry White bass-baritoning from the bottom of the Mariana Trench.

I can just imagine the scenario as Holloway steps up to the oche in the training room.....

Luke Waterfall - Boss, can I pick your brains?

IH - Can't it wait, after this quick game of round the clock I am meeting Fenty and a pal of his at a Travelodge on the M62.

LW - Well I have run my musings by young Pollock and the lesser spotted Scannell and I still remain troubled.

IH - Spit it out, the 2 for 1 offer on mains finishes at 2pm and it is my turn to buy Fenty lunch. Plus I have got a scam going with a big plate. (IH pats his lap top case and grins knowingly)

Dave Moore - Boss. Hanson has managed to complete a 4 minute mile for the 5th day running!

IH - Make him do it again.

LW - If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

IH - Fu**ed if I know. I will ask the Quest production team on Saturday.

LW - I thought we were playing Bradford on Saturday?

IH - I can spin more than one plate Luke! (IH gives him a manic smile and doffs his cloth cap)

Personally I have started judging Hurst's results/team/performance after the 17 day gap caused by several postponements.

So I've excused him the first 7 matches he had (W0 D2 L5 F2 A11 GD-9 Pts2) as he was working with and sorting out the dross that Holloway left him and bringing in new players.

Since the gap we've had 7 matches and seen...
W1 D3 L3 F4 A6 GD-2 Pts6

That might not seem particularly good, but he's trebled the league points achieved, doubled the goals we score & nearly halved the goals we concede in those 7 matches compared the previous 7 matches when he was working with the shite left to him.

I'm not happy we are where we are in the league, but Hurst is turning it around. Sadly it's probably not going to be enough to get us out of the bottom 2 by 5PM on 8th May, but he's doing a good job under very difficult circumstances and I think he's earned the right to be manager next season.

We know from experience that Hurst (given time) can assemble a proper team (rather than 11 individuals) and if he is given the resources I think he might well lead us straight back up next season should we be relegated this season.

Look how well Hurst did last time with only him, deputy Doig and a GK coach as first team coaching staff. This time he'll have a Strength & Conditioning coach & the newly appointed Performance Analyst. We are set-up like a proper professional football club now.

That's looking at it through incredibly rose-tinted glasses Golly IMO.

Excuse Hurst of his first 7 games in charge and not judge him on them? Surely he was brought in for his ability to manage the team as well as bring his own players in. He did worse with Holloways players than the much-criticised Holloway did.

Forgive me for not celebrating the fact that Hurst has trebled his own pitiful points total from his first half a dozen games, as it's still a poor return and we still don't look capable of taking 3 points off anyone.

I know he got us promoted 5/6 years ago but I honestly can't believe so many fans are unwilling to criticise or admit Hursts failings just because they were a fan of his in his previous spell here.

Quoted from Tommy

That's looking at it through incredibly rose-tinted glasses Golly IMO.

Excuse Hurst of his first 7 games in charge and not judge him on them? Surely he was brought in for his ability to manage the team as well as bring his own players in. He did worse with Holloways players than the much-criticised Holloway did.

Forgive me for not celebrating the fact that Hurst has trebled his own pitiful points total from his first half a dozen games, as it's still a poor return and we still don't look capable of taking 3 points off anyone.

I know he got us promoted 5/6 years ago but I honestly can't believe so many fans are unwilling to criticise or admit Hursts failings just because they were a fan of his in his previous spell here.

Spot on Tommy. I don't get the blind allegiance some people have to him with all the evidence stacking up.

Quoted from Tommy

I know he got us promoted 5/6 years ago but I honestly can't believe so many fans are unwilling to criticise or admit Hursts failings just because they were a fan of his in his previous spell here.

I was far from a huge fan of his for his previous spell. I called for him to be replaced after the Gateshead play-off defeat and after the Bristol Rovers final defeat. And I would have done the same if we had not finally got promoted in 2016.

When you consider what he ultimately achieved working under Fenty's penny pinching regime he did a great job even if it was frustrating that it took him 5 attempts to win promotion. With more resources at his disposal and a full summer to build his squad I have faith that he will build a good squad and be successful next season which ever level we are playing at.

Let's make no mistake it about, Hurst's return hasn't been good enough.  

But he inherited an absolute shower of shite with very little to work with in terms of budget.  It says everything that there are no Holloway signings involved anymore with the exception of Morais and fleetingly Jackson, who'll likely have further involvement now.

The other players who Hurst uses but didn't bring in (McKeown, Hendrie, Hewitt, Clifton and Hanson) were all here pre-Holloway.

One of Hurst's first acts was to offload a lot of those signings made by Holloway.  Those that remained such as Scannell and Williams have pretty much been frozen out.

The first thing that springs to my mind is that there's something at play far bigger than on-pitch performances.  It smacks of the situation 11 years ago, Neil Woods inherited Mike Newell's squad that was completely unprofessional and he had to a) offload the deadwood/bad apples b) bring in a new team mid-season c) make that team gel and d) fight a relegation battle.

Under Woods it got worse before it got better and it's the same this time round. Hurst just had less time to make an impact and I suspect a lesser budget to play with (purely judging on where he's brought in a lot of his signings from).

I've wanted Hurst to be braver sooner than he has.  I was fuming at his decision at Carlisle to invite pressure when we were comfortable.  I don't think he's perfect and I think it a lot of other clubs he would have been the shown the door by now, be that fair or not.  But the situation he inherited is a joke.  He came in with the expectation to turn the Titanic with a dinghy.  Holloway's stats are weighted by the first few months of the season were no-one was up to speed really, it was a bit of a free-for-all and our lack of a decent pre-season/solid recruitment wasn't as much of a hinderance.  Mid-October onwards, everyone else got their excrement together and we got left behind.  Yes, Holloway left and we were outside the relegation places. But that slide had started.  Scunthorpe at home aside, the last two months under Holloway we looked absolutely disjointed and clueless.

Don't under estimate the mess that charlatan left behind.

For us going down this season i will not and dont blame Hurst or even Holloway depsite the way he left.

I blame this fully on Fenty  As with Slade MK2 i think Holloway was told to cut costs and get the wages right down hence we lost some decent players.  Holloway probably thought he could build out of very little money and scoured the lower leagues and loans for someething apporaching decent players, most were not decent or not ready for the step up.
They told us the budget was virtually used up.

Come Christmas Holloway decides to leave in dubious circumstances as the team is virtually the worst in the league.
Hurst comes in and now they decide there is plenty of cash left in the pot to go out and sign another complete team of players.

How can this be when we was close to budget first time round???    

This is Fentys doing and its not the first time as we see with Slade cutting budget.

Buy cheap buy twice.

We are down i think, hope Fenty never calls himself a supporter ever again and hope he is never welcome back to the ground once the sale has gone through. Hope he gives the shares back to the trust but i dont think he will as he seems greedy power mad nasty piece of work!

Quoted from Fillipe Noche

I’ve looked at some stats based upon the number of games Hurst and Holloway stood in the dugout.

There’s a couple of games neither were present, and to be fair to Hurst, until he started to bring in his own players and that was complete by end of Jan, he was saddled with Holloway’s dross.
Holloway:
Played 19
Goals For 17
Goals Against 32
GD -15

Hurst:
Played 12
Goals For 5
Goals Against 15
GD -10

As I’ve said, Hurst was saddled with Holloway’s players for much of January, early on suffering a couple of 3 nils whilst getting to know his team. Arguably that gives him a -6 goal disadvantage so to speak

If you look at Hursts last 9 games, he’s never lost by more than a single goal.

But there’s no doubt that goals have dried up.

I know Hurst now has an analyist on board. It must be jumping off the page that the problem is that we DO NOT create enough clear goal scoring opportunities when we have the ball.

Getting that sorted is our one and only hope of performing the great escape, assuming Barrow, Colchester and Port Vale can get back to their consistent bad form, which they may well do.

Add to the above that Holloway’s team ineptitude was also at its height when being knocked out of the FA Cup with a 3-1 embarrassment v Dagenham and Redbridge

Whilst I was never a fan of Holloway or most of his signings, at least his dross wasn't bottom of the league 8 points adrift.

I was a fan of Holloway, but it was clear that the trajectory was downwards this season. The guy had lost his marbles.

I think a lot can be read into the now relatively settled starting 11 we have. Just one Holloway signing tells you all you need to know about his recruitment. But also look at Macca, Hendrie, Hewitt, Clifton.....they all look back to form and look like the good players I for one always thought they were. As well as his awful recruitment, I think as a coach Holloway was useless.

At the same time, the fact that Hurst signings like Payne and Adams can't get a game tells you that many brought in during January were far from first choice signings.

last 6 games Hurst's record better than Holloways, last 10 games they are equal (although Hurst's is now superior if you include the Dagenham embarrassment)

inconvenient stats for several voiceferous posters who've been notably quiet over the last 12-15 hours

I was always of the opinion that January would be about recruitment, February about getting the team to gel and March would be the month that we started to see better results and that's what has broadly happened.

Unfortunately during this period, we slipped even further into trouble and we now have a monumental task on our hands. Was hoping we would have picked up a few more points here and there while we improved, but it has been slim pickings. The other unfortunate thing is the 4 drawn games we have had before the win last night. Can't help think about all the points going begging that we couldn't quite grasp. The late sickener against Carlisle, the two chances that came back off the woodwork and some of the reffing decisions for and against.

I don't think anyone can now deny that we are a much more competitive and organised unit than we were under Hollowhead, but I fear it's come too late.

I think PH has done exactly what we thought he would, but we just hoped he had done it sooner. We are now a lot harder to beat but I think the task to transform us was way beyond what even we thought it was. It's taken longer than hoped because we were an absolute basket case under IH.

As stated before, I'm not the biggest fan of PH and his pragmatic approach, but if you could pick someone to put us back together and steady the ship, he fits the bill for me. I think whatever happens this season, he should be given the chance to build on what he has already implemented and if he is here next season, then I would be fine with that. I think he will be anyway, despite what anyone thinks.

Looking at the 4 draws, they would all have been decent results 10 games ago but with time running out, I didn't even celebrate the Williams equaliser v Mansfield.

Five undefeated

In a season when Hurst hadn’t inherited a relegation situation off the muppet Holloway, a 5 game undefeated run would be getting plaudits.

There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Hurst is doing a good job and a significantly better job than Kermit Holloway,

I knew Holloway was a wrong un when he ordered coffee with his fish and chips instead of tea

Quoted from Fillipe Noche

Five undefeated

In a season when Hurst hadn’t inherited a relegation situation off the muppet Holloway, a 5 game undefeated run would be getting plaudits.

There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Hurst is doing a good job and a significantly better job than Kermit Holloway,

I knew Holloway was a wrong un when he ordered coffee with his fish and chips instead of tea

Don’t bite. Anybody. Especially you DB.

Quoted from Fillipe Noche

Five undefeated

In a season when Hurst hadn’t inherited a relegation situation off the muppet Holloway, a 5 game undefeated run would be getting plaudits.

There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Hurst is doing a good job and a significantly better job than Kermit Holloway,

I knew Holloway was a wrong un when he ordered coffee with his fish and chips instead of tea

Did your mate John make a mistake, or did he fail to confide in you on that occasion.?

Just an inconvenient update for some

Hurst & Holloway now have identical records (i've included the Morecambe League cup draw & Dagenham defeat as they were both first team fixtures)

Holloway = played 22 won 5, drawn 5, lost 12 = 20 points
Hurst = played 22 won 4, drawn 8, lost 10 = 20 points

edit:
goals - holloway 19 scored, 35 conceded =  -16
           hurst 16 scored ,25 conceded   =   -9

Quoted from forza ivano

Just an inconvenient update for some

Hurst & Holloway now have identical records (i've included the Morecambe League cup draw & Dagenham defeat as they were both first team fixtures)

Holloway = played 22 won 5, drawn 5, lost 12 = 20 points
Hurst = played 22 won 4, drawn 8, lost 10 = 20 points

You’re not playing the game right. Everyone knows we like to shift the blame on to old cuppy ears...

So Hurst is now doing the same as Holloway who I think we all agree was a disaster! Weird way to make a point Forza🥴

Quoted from psgmariner

So Hurst is now doing the same as Holloway who I think we all agree was a disaster! Weird way to make a point Forza🥴

just balancing things up psg. For several months the usual suspects have taken delight in pointing out that Hurst's record was worse than Holloway.

it's almost as those people don't want Hurst to succeed - once again there has been much less praise coming for yesterday's excellent performance than the brickbats which come when we lose

Quoted from forza ivano

just balancing things up psg. For several months the usual suspects have taken delight in pointing out that Hurst's record was worse than Holloway.

it's almost as those people don't want Hurst to succeed - once again there has been much less praise coming for yesterday's excellent performance than the brickbats which come when we lose

Agreed, has anybody heard from Yoda and the other usual suspects?

Quoted from forza ivano

just balancing things up psg. For several months the usual suspects have taken delight in pointing out that Hurst's record was worse than Holloway.

it's almost as those people don't want Hurst to succeed - once again there has been much less praise coming for yesterday's excellent performance than the brickbats which come when we lose

I’d like to think most people, Hurst fans or otherwise, can see we are a better outfit now (and over the past 8 or 9 games) than at any point this season under Holloway. We’ve arguably been unlucky not to pick up another 3 or 4 points during that period, but that is what it is.

If Hurst made a mistake, it’s that he tried to do too much in January, bringing in virtually a new team of players, some who improved us whilst others didn’t. That meant taking a step backwards to move forwards - one we couldn’t afford.

Seven players who were already here started yesterday’s game, the same number who started against Bolton. In some of Hurst’s early games in charge, that figure was as few as one.

It sounds counter-intuitive based on where we find ourselves, but perhaps our biggest mistake this season was overestimating how bad we were.

I was thinking about the thread title and another thread title 'Imagine', and joined them together in my mind ( small as it is).

We stay up and Holloway gets the Bristol Rovers job. We play them away and win 2 - 1 and the return home game hammer them 6- 0 to get promotion to L1 while the 6th goal makes means their goal difference gets them relegated to the NL.

Bloody good stuff this Red Wine!

Let’s be honest they have both been shocking.

Quoted from Yoda

Let’s be honest they have both been shocking.

Wow.major concession  from Yoda.i know it will hurt, but can you go that extra mile and accept that it was a bloody good win yesterday  given the injuries and non availability that hurst had to cope with?

Quoted from forza ivano

Wow.major concession  from Yoda.i know it will hurt, but can you go that extra mile and accept that it was a bloody good win yesterday  given the injuries and non availability that hurst had to cope with?

You might be waiting a while.

No great win any win is great.
3 more and we have a chance a slim chance

My take on this remains that if you put the Holloway outfit, with him in charge for the duration, through the whole season we would have gone down.

If you let Hurst have the full run at this season, even with the squad he's got now, we would probably finish lower mid-table.  If he had a bit more of the budget that Holloway wasted, we would be pushing into the higher reaches of mid-table but that would be it.  

Quality costs money, we've not had much to spend in January and our marquee signing was a huge disappointment (Payne).

I still maintain that you can easily under estimate the absolute shower that Hurst inherited.

To add to this, at the start of the Hurst reign we took a couple of bad beatings, at Port Vale and Scunthorpe. After this we have been pretty solid. Under the half wit we took some absolute batterings.
On a positive note, we have half a team for next season and some time to prepare. Nobody knows better than us the nightmare of the national league but I think a few cards are in our favour next season subject to us having a highly competitive budget.
1.as stated above we will not need a complete fresh start for players
2. By our standards the fan base should be united.There is always the vocal minority but most of us realise that Hurst is not a bad option in the National league
3. We are expertly acquainted with this level, under no delusions and have a manager who knows his way around this. Hopefully with better backing we should really come out fighting.
PS I hope we stay up but I got over this a few weeks ago and so prefer to stay realistic, utm

Quoted from Zmariner

To add to this, at the start of the Hurst reign we took a couple of bad beatings, at Port Vale and Scunthorpe. After this we have been pretty solid. Under the half wit we took some absolute batterings.
On a positive note, we have half a team for next season and some time to prepare. Nobody knows better than us the nightmare of the national league but I think a few cards are in our favour next season subject to us having a highly competitive budget.
1.as stated above we will not need a complete fresh start for players
2. By our standards the fan base should be united.There is always the vocal minority but most of us realise that Hurst is not a bad option in the National league
3. We are expertly acquainted with this level, under no delusions and have a manager who knows his way around this. Hopefully with better backing we should really come out fighting.
PS I hope we stay up but I got over this a few weeks ago and so prefer to stay realistic, utm

Although I am resigned to us going down, there is still that glimmer of hope that we won't. One thing I am sure is that Hurst and most of the squad will give it a good shot. Although the thought of relegation still hurts, especially my pride as a Grimbarian, the spectre of the going non-league doesn't seem as daunting this time around. We have a manager who knows what it takes to get promoted back into the league. Fans point to how it took him 6 seasons to achieve that last time but I feel he was hampered by Shouty and as a solo manager would have achieved it in less. We have the prospect of new owners who appear to have a different philosophy on how the club should be run. We have a large parachute payment which could be used to finance a good recruitment drive in the summer. I am quite confident that with the right approach we get achieve promotion next season. Hull have managed it following a relegation by sticking by their manager and I think we can do the same.

Quoted from rancido

Although I am resigned to us going down, there is still that glimmer of hope that we won't. One thing I am sure is that Hurst and most of the squad will give it a good shot. Although the thought of relegation still hurts, especially my pride as a Grimbarian, the spectre of the going non-league doesn't seem as daunting this time around. We have a manager who knows what it takes to get promoted back into the league. Fans point to how it took him 6 seasons to achieve that last time but I feel he was hampered by Shouty and as a solo manager would have achieved it in less. We have the prospect of new owners who appear to have a different philosophy on how the club should be run. We have a large parachute payment which could be used to finance a good recruitment drive in the summer. I am quite confident that with the right approach we get achieve promotion next season. Hull have managed it following a relegation by sticking by their manager and I think we can do the same.

which it didnt

Quoted from Hagrid

which it didnt

My mistake and thank you for correcting me - 5 seasons and a couple of months ! I haven't worked out the couple or so of months down to the exact days as I didn't want to be so pedantic (and I couldn't be ar*ed !)

nope on his own, 4 seasons

Quoted from Hagrid

nope on his own, 4 seasons

Read my original post! I said that "some fans" said it took him 6 seasons and I did say he had Shouty with him at the beginning. You must learn to read posts completely before making a comment!

Quoted from Hagrid

nope on his own, 4 seasons

Wrong!!! Rob Scott left 6th September 2013 and we were promoted 15th May 2016, which is slightly less than 3 full seasons - 33 calendar months.

I don't think it's fair to count the time he was with Scott, or I don't think it is fair to count the 13-14 season as Scott left in September of that season so Hurst didn't have a full season in sole charge.

In his first full season in charge we made the play off final and lost on penalties.

2nd full season in charge he got us promoted!

Clearly you could be arsed then...

Quoted from Hagrid

Clearly you could be arsed then...

Well I had a spare 5 minutes to check it 😉