Split League 2 North and South

Idea being floated in Mail on Sunday (I don't read it but a friend does!)

Would take teams from National League plus one to replace Bury.

Think we would have some better away matches and avoid dreary southern trips, but presumably only two places for promotion to League 1. Possibly one via playoffs.

Also we have a lot of Exciles who would miss out on games

Could be a case of newspapers wanting to fill space rather than a credible proposal

2 up 1 down from each division to match the current system.

It would certainly save on costs for clubs and should increase revenue too but would probably lower the standard

Town do have a lot of exiles but we don't get any money from people who only attend away games. We would get more money from extra away fans at BP though.

I suspect it’s just a nasty rag trying to fill column inches and justify their existence.

Can’t really see it being a good idea, there’s no need to do it.

Is this MOS that slagged off nurses for making a video, accusing them of neglecting patients, dancing Instead? Anything to sell a piece of poor quality bog paper. Don't believe anything these lazy journalists make up.

Quoted from 140067

Is this MOS that slagged off nurses for making a video, accusing them of neglecting patients, dancing Instead? Anything to sell a piece of poor quality bog paper. Don't believe anything these lazy journalists make up.

No it is one of a number of news outlets reporting suggestions that some or all the leagues could be split north and south.

Try having a proper look before hurting your finger bashing the keyboard in disgust.

Whatever you feel about this, I think there is a significant chance of it happening, maybe for a limited time?, say two seasons?

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

No it is one of a number of news outlets reporting suggestions that some or all the leagues could be split north and south.

Try having a proper look before hurting your finger bashing the keyboard in disgust.

Aww bless, xx

Quoted from lee65

Whatever you feel about this, I think there is a significant chance of it happening, maybe for a limited time?, say two seasons?

Then what 12 down from each North and South ?

I can see clubs jumping at that  

Quoted from 140067

Aww bless, xx

That's OK, just looking out for those less fortunate.

Quoted from IlkleyMariner

Idea being floated in Mail on Sunday (I don't read it but a friend does!)

Would take teams from National League plus one to replace Bury.

Think we would have some better away matches and avoid dreary southern trips, but presumably only two places for promotion to League 1. Possibly one via playoffs.

Also we have a lot of Exciles who would miss out on games

Could be a case of newspapers wanting to fill space rather than a credible proposal

Can't see it happening, and If spectators are allowed next season it will be a gradual process, so
I'd be surprised if away fans are allowed next season anyway, as travel restrictions of some sort may still be in place.

We all know the National League is a much better standard than it once was and I think it would be a great idea.

I would like to see 2 up from each division automatically and then play-offs with a North v South final. Obviously that would mean 5 down from League 1.

Also 2 down from each division so that the National League North and South aren't deprived of the play-offs.

Wouldn't be surprised to see a Premier League 1 and 2 come about.. How much TV money etc the lower leagues get then I'm not sure

Quoted from IlkleyMariner

Idea being floated in Mail on Sunday (I don't read it but a friend does!)

Would take teams from National League plus one to replace Bury.

Think we would have some better away matches and avoid dreary southern trips, but presumably only two places for promotion to League 1. Possibly one via playoffs.

Also we have a lot of Exciles who would miss out on games

Could be a case of newspapers wanting to fill space rather than a credible proposal

Is that me getting 6 red crosses or the idea. It's not my idea, just saying.

The problem is with the teams that are relegated. What happens if they are all northern clubs? Do they all get relegated to the northern league making it bigger while the southern league ends up smaller? This is why Town have played in both 3rd. Div north and south.

Travel is a lot easier than when we last  had north and south 3rd. Divisions.

Leave it alone I say. If teams can't afford to travel it's because they are in financial trouble, and that is not down to travelling costs but down to mismanagement.

Feels like a solution looking for a problem. Leave it be as is.

I cannot see how we can have a next season without paying fans . where will the money come from to run the clubs and pay wages .Without a jab for it  most contact sport will be finished

I find the regulations in Germany baffling. You can tackle, man mark, get close to your man and essentially play football as it should be...subs can’t sit next to each other and they can’t shake hands...odd.

I don’t think splitting the division is as easy as people assume and let’s be realistic, if the EFL decided to do that we all know that they’d make the numbers up or readjust it to accommodate B teams because they’d be dazzled with the promise of additional money etc like they were for the Checkatrade and literally never materialised.

Just leave well alone...some of our best away games since being back in the league have been southern away days...

Felt as if something like this has been on the cards for a while.

Not saying I agree or disagree with it either way (I can see merits and faults on both sides of the argument) but purely and simply from a common sense perspective, this is the natural route for football at our level to take.

Once we eventually come out of this situation, the world is going to be a different place - included in that is football.  The economy will be in an even worse position than normal and I also think there's going to be greater scrutiny on travel (as much as I hate the lockdown situation, the improvement in the pollution levels is a positive).  Can we really justify Plymouth playing away at Carlisle and vice-versa?

I've absolutely no idea how it would be arranged and I guess relegation and promotion would be a nightmare to figure out.  But what I can see happening is that the Premier League more or less implodes because of it's own selfish interests, be it clubs wanting to preserve their status in the top flight or other clubs and the league wanting to finish the season to ensure TV money is secured.  Either way, it's about to blow up which will pave the way for the top 6 to basically leave and join a European Super League, which will generate them more money.

Minus the big boys, our domestic game will look very different and I think it will also open the door for a British league system that's regionalised in a similar pyramid style to the non-league.  

Step 2 of non-league already has this system and it was, as some here may remember if they are knocking on a bit like me, the normal format in the football league from 1921 to 1958. Town were founder members of the Third Division North which came a year later than the Third Division South which was created after WW1 mainly from the Southern League and there were complaints about the bias towards southern clubs. The regional idea was kept mainly because of the travel time and costs for small clubs when travel was almost all by rail.

Town were champions in 1956 and Scunthorpe were the last champions in 1958. Town were relegated from Div 2 in 1957-58 and played in the newly formed Third Division in 1958-9.

Personally I can't see anything much wrong in the idea of regional leagues, it is cheaper for clubs and it does mean easier travel for fans plus more derby matches. But there has to be a good number of good quality sides  and some games outside of the region for variety.

Personally, I hate the idea of regionalised divisions as high up as the FL.

But if that's what's needed in these times then so be it, I suppose.

makes no difference, we are winning any league we are in....next time it starts

Interesting re regions, can see sense in Lg1 & 2 joining together as north/south but National league? what do we gain financially playing Bromley, Solihull, Chorley, Fylde or Harrogate at home with their big away followings

I just think we’re more likely to see the introduction of B teams rather than the promotion of conference sides.

Financially I can’t see it being anymore cost effective regionalising it.

I appreciate the environmental debate but I’m not sure Plymouth Carlisle twice a season is the issue here. It just seems, as already mentioned a problem to a solution. Travel costs/long away games are not the reason the likes of Macclesfield, bury, Bolton etc are on their bottom...

Quoted from Madeleymariner

Interesting re regions, can see sense in Lg1 & 2 joining together as north/south but National league? what do we gain financially playing Bromley, Solihull, Chorley, Fylde or Harrogate at home with their big away followings

Think you need to check your map  

Quoted from mimma

The problem is with the teams that are relegated. What happens if they are all northern clubs? Do they all get relegated to the northern league making it bigger while the southern league ends up smaller? This is why Town have played in both 3rd. Div north and south.

Travel is a lot easier than when we last  had north and south 3rd. Divisions.

Leave it alone I say. If teams can't afford to travel it's because they are in financial trouble, and that is not down to travelling costs but down to mismanagement.

A number of leagues are currently split north and south and they seem to manage OK. There will be times when a club that looks as though they should be in the northern section but end up playing in the southern section or vice versa and some clubs drift between the two. The Northern Premier League had north and south sections and now east and west.

However if League 2 was split with League 1 not so and League 2 included some from the National League then that would make it harder to get promoted if only 2 teams went up from each section.

Quoted from Abdul19

Personally, I hate the idea of regionalised divisions as high up as the FL.

But if that's what's needed in these times then so be it, I suppose.

Even without the virus issue I have changed my opinion on this in recent years mostly since the stupid all seater rules that have cost ridiculous and unnecessary  amounts. The costs for clubs to even exist nowadays is beyond what most can achieve through the gate and local sponsorship. If we want to keep local (proper) football alive then we need to do something apart from a begging bowl to the PL. This could be one way forward.

Wonder how big a part travel costs play in our budget. I don’t think they’re listed in the notes to the accounts. I have a gut feeling that any savings would get swallowed up by player wages and I suspect we’d lose sponsorship money through not having a national profile.

The big issue cost wise seems to be player wages. The desire to succeed on the pitch is the thing that drives unsustainable finances. Find a way to control player wages and I think you have the solution.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

Wonder how big a part travel costs play in our budget. I don’t think they’re listed in the notes to the accounts. I have a gut feeling that any savings would get swallowed up by player wages and I suspect we’d lose sponsorship money through not having a national profile.

The big issue cost wise seems to be player wages. The desire to succeed on the pitch is the thing that drives unsustainable finances. Find a way to control player wages and I think you have the solution.

The other issue is gates isn't it? There are more local derbies and more likelihood of away fans traveling the shorter distances. This could be better economically and lead to better atmospheres than some of those games with 25 away fans rattling round the Osmond Corner?

I don't know, just speculating Kingston.

Promotion and relegation could be an issue in keeping a balance of North and South but it still has to be better than Hartlepool at Exeter. It just has to be assessed each season as they do now and as they did in the Olden Days!

If it's league one and two being put together in a regional league I can just about accept that.. League two with National league no way thanks

All this talk of regionalism has mainly come about because of this pandemic. The FA is sat on a fortune that it has creamed off clubs so why can't it step in and give some back to the clubs from where it came to help them out?

As mentioned above does anyone know what sort of figure out of our budget we are talking about? Clubs like Plymouth,Exeter, and Carlisle that will have high travel costs compared to say Walsall. They are the ones to benefit the most.

Quoted from mimma

All this talk of regionalism has mainly come about because of this pandemic. The FA is sat on a fortune that it has creamed off clubs so why can't it step in and give some back to the clubs from where it came to help them out?

As mentioned above does anyone know what sort of figure out of our budget we are talking about? Clubs like Plymouth,Exeter, and Carlisle that will have high travel costs compared to say Walsall. They are the ones to benefit the most.

I don't disagree about the FA but the regional issue has been around a while as clubs have been struggling with the budgets like Macc and Bury etc., it goes along with a return to part time too which really could be a possibility for some perhaps?

I’m not sure travel costs and the like are what send clubs like bury and Macclesfield to the wall.

I understand it’s not cheap and I know when Portsmouth we’re going to excrement they were still having overnight stays, using planes etc to travel to games, even as they plummeted down the leagues, that’s irresponsible. In terms of Bury and the likes I’d imagine it’s the over spend on wages and the owners taking more out than goes in essentially.

I am not interested in any other club only how it would effect Grimsby.

At the moment we have to travel to Plymouth have an overnight stop and get nothing from the game money wise that is just one of a few long trips.

When we take hundreds or thousands to an away game we get nothing money wise again.

So when we play out home games would we get a bigger gate meaning more money if we played Plymouth or Harrogate ?

Not sure what would be best we need an accountant to do the figures and tell us.

They had Div 3 North and South in the olden days. What was the reason for changing to the current structure?

I’d argue that we’re likely to get more away fans with Exeter and Plymouth in our league than someone like Harrogate, Barrow etc...so if that’s a concern then I’d suggest we keep it as is.

I appreciate town take large followings in recent years and we don’t get the same in return but that’s similar for most clubs.

A fair few of our exiled fans would miss out on a fair few games too. I know the other year when they calibrated the north and south divisions lower down the pyramid some clubs got stung because of how they’d calculated the numbers and drawn the line etc.

Just leave it alone...there’s nothing wrong with it as is...

You could have a regionalised League 2 with 12 teams, everyone plays each other 4 times. I'm not advocating for that but it would be better than combining league 2 with the conference.

Quoted from grimsby pete

When we take hundreds or thousands to an away game we get nothing money wise again.

Not strictly true - we get a small percentage (5?) of tickets sold via our ticket office.

Going back 60 years.

Back to the "good old days" eh Der Heil?

Didn't work then (which is why they got rid of it), won't work now.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

The other issue is gates isn't it? There are more local derbies and more likelihood of away fans traveling the shorter distances. This could be better economically and lead to better atmospheres than some of those games with 25 away fans rattling round the Osmond Corner?

I don't know, just speculating Kingston.

Promotion and relegation could be an issue in keeping a balance of North and South but it still has to be better than Hartlepool at Exeter. It just has to be assessed each season as they do now and as they did in the Olden Days!

We’re all speculating RRFC.

The attendances might creep up a bit, depending on who is in our division. I can’t imagine the likes of Harrogate or Southport bringing many. Pools, Chesterfield, Notts etc would.

Longer term it might weaken the ties that many exiles and descendants have for the club if they’re not in the northern area not actually having recently enjoyed the experience of being at the match in person. It might not mean much in terms of money though. Who knows.

League Two and Conference merge a complete no go for me, for every lost Orient or Plymouth we'd gain a Fylde or Harrogate, but at best, if it was a League One / League Two regionalised set up, what about promotion? Champions go up from both North and South plus the winners of a play-off system where the North and South winners play at Wembley for the remaining third promotion spot? The Championship aren't going to offer more relegation places. A year or two of local derbies then stagnation and boredom will set in with fans having wanderlust dreams of rural Devon, Sussex and Gloucestershire and meeting up with exiles. Even when you look at best case scenarios, regional leagues in the EFL aren't going to work and club travel costs are a complete red herring accounting for way less than 5% of club overheads as it stands and regional potential savings accounting for less than 1%..

The EFL should stop tinkering with anything and everything whenever they get the chance and put forward a stronger case to the Premier League for a higher percentage share of TV money, and at the same time, clamp down harder on FFP rule breakers..

Quoted from TownSNAFU5

They had Div 3 North and South in the olden days. What was the reason for changing to the current structure?

One reason was that only the champions from each league got promoted to Division 2. They hadn’t invented play-offs then. Even Bill Shankley didn’t get us promoted. The other reason was that travel was a lot cheaper and easier in 1958 than it was in 1921 so that problem had gone. The final reason was that it allowed a better competition for the 92 clubs if there was a Div 3 and a Div 4.

The one thing regionalised leagues would do would be to stop the absolutely ridiculous situation we have now where midweek away games tend to be against clubs miles away from home. The Football League have this warped logic that a lot of folk wouldn't go to the game anyway so put it on midweek when it can be nigh on impossible to get back from some games. Three of our last four away games at Carlisle have been midweek ones if I remember rightly?

Quoted from jock dock tower

The one thing regionalised leagues would do would be to stop the absolutely ridiculous situation we have now where midweek away games tend to be against clubs miles away from home. The Football League have this warped logic that a lot of folk wouldn't go to the game anyway so put it on midweek when it can be nigh on impossible to get back from some games. Three of our last four away games at Carlisle have been midweek ones if I remember rightly?

Well Carlisle would still be in the northern league so it wouldn't stop that at all!

The fixtures are computer generated, we’ve had season when midweek games aren’t far away...

I think the travel thing is being over thought. I really don’t see what GTFC would gain from being in a regionalised division, and as said, the playoff system would need a revamp and I’d imagine would lead to possibly even more games.

Surely clubs have to be a bit savvy and think about it. Look at all those times money was wasted opening the Osmond Stand in the conference when teams brought 25 fans...surely we could’ve just used a section of the main stand like so many other clubs do.

If travel costs are an issue then perhaps it’s the way it’s done, like I say, even after being in financial ruin Pompey were still flying to games and staying at plush hotels and the like...don’t moan about having zero cash if you’re flying to games in the midlands...get on a coach like everyone else.

Quoted from aldi_01

The fixtures are computer generated, we’ve had season when midweek games aren’t far away...

I think the travel thing is being over thought. I really don’t see what GTFC would gain from being in a regionalised division, and as said, the playoff system would need a revamp and I’d imagine would lead to possibly even more games.

Surely clubs have to be a bit savvy and think about it. Look at all those times money was wasted opening the Osmond Stand in the conference when teams brought 25 fans...surely we could’ve just used a section of the main stand like so many other clubs do.

If travel costs are an issue then perhaps it’s the way it’s done, like I say, even after being in financial ruin Pompey were still flying to games and staying at plush hotels and the like...don’t moan about having zero cash if you’re flying to games in the midlands...get on a coach like everyone else.

I'm fairly sure that EFL fixtures are not entirely computer generated, they involve a lot of human input too, also with requests from clubs themselves, pairing up with other local clubs on police grounds, and I believe I saw somewhere that the EFL in the past few seasons made sure that clubs had long distance away games midweek to restrict the numbers of fans travelling in poor conditions (or to use that excuse to boost i-Follow income)..

IF regionalisation was brought in, in an effort to cut costs and/or boost gates - which is debatable, the fundamental problem would not be addressed, it would continue and would arguably get worse. Because the additional monies could well end up in players/agents pockets.  
Poorly run clubs are often guilty of irresponsible and unsustainable wage structures - regionalisation does not address that issue.

If cost cutting is an aim, why do we need so many substitutes.  Cutting substitutes to say 3 would enable squad sizes to be reduced.  Homegrown/young quotas could still exist and as a bigger proportion of the squad may even be of benefit.  A reduced squad of 3/4 would be proportionally a big saving.

As an aside a proportion of semi-pros in the short-term at least, may well be part of a squad make up for some clubs.

P.S. I assume agents will do their bit for the good of the game, by reducing their fees..........!!!

I don’t really see how it’s possible to even start planning a new league structure when there’s no idea when clubs will be solvent without the income of fans ? A plan could be made in theory but it’s likely a lot of the National league clubs let alone those in L1&2 could’ve folded .

Quoted from HistonMariner

IF regionalisation was brought in, in an effort to cut costs and/or boost gates - which is debatable, the fundamental problem would not be addressed, it would continue and would arguably get worse. Because the additional monies could well end up in players/agents pockets.  
Poorly run clubs are often guilty of irresponsible and unsustainable wage structures - regionalisation does not address that issue.

If cost cutting is an aim, why do we need so many substitutes.  Cutting substitutes to say 3 would enable squad sizes to be reduced.  Homegrown/young quotas could still exist and as a bigger proportion of the squad may even be of benefit.  A reduced squad of 3/4 would be proportionally a big saving.

As an aside a proportion of semi-pros in the short-term at least, may well be part of a squad make up for some clubs.

P.S. I assume agents will do their bit for the good of the game, by reducing their fees..........!!!