- Print Topic - Archive

Quoted from LocalLadGTFC

Tweet 1757883897361105343 will appear here...

Accounts from 22/23 shows them losing 4 million without any upgrades to the infrastructure and they don't even own the ground. This is the sort of thing we're competing with just in L2... the fact stuff like this is allowed to happen is a joke. An independent regulator is needed and fast before we lose more clubs.

It's up to them if they want to take the risk. You will never get a level playing field so you run a club in accordance with your finances and philosophy I guess.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

It's up to them if they want to take the risk. You will never get a level playing field so you run a club in accordance with your finances and philosophy I guess.

I mean it's not really up to the fans of the club is it. It's up to some bloke that really doesn't care about the fortunes of Crawley Town or it's fans trying to make money and will eventually leave them in the excrement. These owners really don't give a toss about the clubs.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/feb/15/salary-cap-leagues-competitive-reduce-agents-influence

Stockwood's latest piece in the Guardian on this topic,

Colchester , Crawley and Leyton Orient all posting big big losses in the last couple of weeks .

Just to try and compete or get out of league 2

I don't mind so much if someone puts the money in as a hobby or whatever and won't let the club go when they have finished , it's more the Crawley/Scunthorpe scenario when the club/and, or stadium is leveraged against loads of debt which will leave the club eventually in a mess or worse .

That's why although on the pitch it's bad atm I struggle to be too harsh on Stockwood & Pettit as they are at least trying their best to run the club the right way . Unfortunately the right way does not always mean success .

Quoted from Mappers

Colchester , Crawley and Leyton Orient all posting big big losses in the last couple of weeks .

Just to try and compete or get out of league 2

I don't mind so much if someone puts the money in as a hobby or whatever and won't let the club go when they have finished , it's more the Crawley/Scunthorpe scenario when the club/and, or stadium is leveraged against loads of debt which will leave the club eventually in a mess or worse .

That's why although on the pitch it's bad atm I struggle to be too harsh on Stockwood & Pettit as they are at least trying their best to run the club the right way . Unfortunately the right way does not always mean success .

True pumping millions into a lower league club doesn’t necessarily guarantee success.

Off the top of my head Mansfield have spent loads over the last few years, in fact I think it’s the owners wife who’s in charge, so yes they’re looking good at the moment, and if they get promotion then it’s spend on another level in league 1, and I don’t believe there attendances are larger then ours.

I agree with salary cap but I seem to remember when it was proposed in the National League there was much hand wringing on here. We're well down the table in this division wage bill wise but were quite high up in the NL. Most fans will want whatever favours their club.

Quoted from Gaffer58

Off the top of my head Mansfield have spent loads over the last few years, in fact I think it’s the owners wife who’s in charge, so yes they’re looking good at the moment, and if they get promotion then it’s spend on another level in league 1, and I don’t believe there attendances are larger then ours.

Stockport too. Their wealthy owner pumps loads in I’d imagine without checking they are at similar levels to Wrexham.

4million to get to mid table in L2. Crazy. What is the point?

This kind of thing just distorts the division. So many clubs are vanity projects for the super rich these days that there is little chance of a club trying to manage its finances sensibly being able to compete.

It’s worse the higher up the leagues you go. I think I read that more than half of the clubs have been in admin at one time or another, some several times. But they never learn. Even teams in the prem with the fantastic amounts of cash that they get thrown at them manage to lose vast fortunes.

It’s why the days of Town being a force in the Championship as we were in the eighties and nineties are well and truly gone. Unless one of us wins the euro lottery.

Quoted from GrimRob

I agree with salary cap but I seem to remember when it was proposed in the National League there was much hand wringing on here. We're well down the table in this division wage bill wise but were quite high up in the NL. Most fans will want whatever favours their club.

Not going to happen. The clubs voted for it, then the ones that didn't want a cap challenged in court and it got ruled illegal. A football regulator won't be able to change the law. The only way would be to enforce the ffp or something like that which caps expenditure rather than individual payments. Technically already exists but being able to opt out is obscene

If they have harsher punishments for administration, it may at least punish teams not living within their means. If they overtake us, they'll be back down before they know it. While I don't like fans getting punished, it feels like we're getting punished for supporting a sustainable football club.

Quoted from pen penfras

Not going to happen. The clubs voted for it, then the ones that didn't want a cap challenged in court and it got ruled illegal. A football regulator won't be able to change the law. The only way would be to enforce the ffp or something like that which caps expenditure rather than individual payments. Technically already exists but being able to opt out is obscene

Not a problem with owners putting money into clubs and spending freely, registering as debt against the club is only going one way and the FA wonder why clubs are going pot.

Quoted from RonMariner

It’s why the days of Town being a force in the Championship as we were in the eighties and nineties are well and truly gone. Unless one of us wins the euro lottery.

If I win the euro lottery, I'll be rebuilding the Winter Gardens first and then we'll see what's left over for Town

Quoted from Theimperialcoroner

Stockport too. Their wealthy owner pumps loads in I’d imagine without checking they are at similar levels to Wrexham.

Stockport lost 70k every week trying to get out of the conference, although it DID work.

We, of course, did it on a relative shoestring, but now it’s showing as (according to some figures I was shown today) we have a bottom 5 budget in this division.

It’s all conjecture, but probably not far off.

Crawley, though, are a madcap football club. I wish we were already safe like them, however….

Quoted from Heisenberg

Stockport lost 70k every week trying to get out of the conference, although it DID work.

We, of course, did it on a relative shoestring, but now it’s showing as (according to some figures I was shown today) we have a bottom 5 budget in this division.

It’s all conjecture, but probably not far off.

Crawley, though, are a madcap football club. I wish we were already safe like them, however….

Those figures off some random twitter account you mean? Or was it from a source with some credibility like Kieran Maguire?

Quoted from Balthazar Bullitt

Those figures off some random twitter account you mean? Or was it from a source with some credibility like Kieran Maguire?

Definitely not Maguire, I’ll admit that, but I was one of those early season that was pretty sure there were LOTS of big spenders this season and we’d finish bottom half as we couldn’t compete. I didn’t quite foresee THIS, though.

You’re right in that the numbers could be nonsense, and I very much doubt that ANYONE has access to accurate figures for all 24 teams’ wages, but if we’re run sustainably, we’re small fry in this division this year, no doubt.

Quoted from Heisenberg

Stockport lost 70k every week trying to get out of the conference, although it DID work.

We, of course, did it on a relative shoestring, but now it’s showing as (according to some figures I was shown today) we have a bottom 5 budget in this division.

It’s all conjecture, but probably not far off.

Crawley, though, are a madcap football club. I wish we were already safe like them, however….

It can't be bottom 5. We're definitely spending more than when Fenty was in charge and we were 11th highest spenders in Jolley's season. I know there are more big spenders than usual, but not that many more.

Quoted from pen penfras

It can't be bottom 5. We're definitely spending more than when Fenty was in charge and we were 11th highest spenders in Jolley's season. I know there are more big spenders than usual, but not that many more.

There's not that much between 11th and 20th. The top 10 are in a different league though. We're way off the pace. It's going to take an exceptional season to even get close to the playoffs. Big spenders will just be replaced by other big spenders.

Quoted from pen penfras

It can't be bottom 5. We're definitely spending more than when Fenty was in charge and we were 11th highest spenders in Jolley's season. I know there are more big spenders than usual, but not that many more.

You can only speculate but I would think we sit roughly in the lower middle  , there's one's that definitely spend less on wages  - Accrington ,Morecambe , Sutton ,Barrow  and Newport  .

Then there is probably : us , Tranmere , Walsall ,Crewe , Swindon ,Afc Wimbledon ; maybe  Bradford , who even with their big crowds run a tight ship .

All clubs with relatively decent fanbases but not bankrolled .

So I would say anywhere between  13th and 19th is reality .

The hope must be if we stay up the big spenders leave and are replaced with lesser financed clubs - Cheltenham , Burton etc and then one NL minnow which could help make us more competetive budget wise you would hope .

Quoted from Gaffer58

Off the top of my head Mansfield have spent loads over the last few years, in fact I think it’s the owners wife who’s in charge, so yes they’re looking good at the moment, and if they get promotion then it’s spend on another level in league 1, and I don’t believe there attendances are larger then ours.

I will be interested to see how Mansfield & Stockport go about it if they do go up - their owners are wealthy but not billionaires - will they be willing to throw 10 million quid at it year after year to try and get to The Champ , or even could they ?

You are talking another level up with 4 or 5 teams who get 20-30k weekly with investment on top of that (something that neither are capable of in terms of capacity or fanbase ) . Then a mid table that consists of Lincoln and the like that need to lose 3 or 4 million to stay in the mid pack .

This is why the new deal is so important to lower league clubs however is it close to be agreed by premiershite clubs.It has a form of wage cap im told re income ,sponsorship,redistribution of earned income( sponsorship ,cup money etc etc).Last time a wage cap we nearly went up and competed very well.with bigger clubs* plus we had brennan johnson and morgan rodgers! We are ready for it but are town ? Despite what you may think we are not paying massive wages but are well regarded looking after players,on and off the field.This is where you compete with clubs but you need desperately to find other income streams !

Quoted from David Frazer

This is why the new deal is so important to lower league clubs however is it close to be agreed by premiershite clubs.It has a form of wage cap im told re income ,sponsorship,redistribution of earned income( sponsorship ,cup money etc etc).Last time a wage cap we nearly went up and competed very well.with bigger clubs* plus we had brennan johnson and morgan rodgers! We are ready for it but are town ? Despite what you may think we are not paying massive wages but are well regarded looking after players,on and off the field.This is where you compete with clubs but you need desperately to find other income streams !

I do think Lincoln are one of the better run clubs , I listened to an interview with your CEO who effectively said without the investment you would have a bottom third budget .

I would hope we are ready and that it happens

But much like now would be concerned that the 'wrong un ' clubs will find various loopholes to gain an advantage still .

Time will tell I guess

Having read the postings above I decided to pick one of these sites and see what they said. I randomly came up with "Salary Sport". I dont know how accurate they are and have rounded up the figures for the players wage bills which are in £millions.
Here is the League table:
Wrexham...........5.2
MK Dons...........4.0
Stockport...........3.7
Bradford............3.6
Mansfield..........3.4
FGR..................3.4
Gillingham.........3.2
Colchester.........2.9
Salford..............2.8
Doncaster.........2.5
Notts County....2.4
Sutton..............2.2
Wimbledon......2.1
Harrogate.........2.0
Tranmere.........2.0
Walsall.............1.9
Swindon...........1.9
Grimsby............1.9
Barrow..............1.8
Crawley.............1.7
Morecambe.......1.5
Crewe................1.5
Accrington.........1.5
Newport.............!.4

It doesn't include transfer fees paid which was also part of the same budget I would have thought

Quoted from Wedidntdidwe

It doesn't include transfer fees paid which was also part of the same budget I would have thought

I wonder what the effect of adding transfer fees would make?
A selling club would generate income. But may sell because they cant pay enough in wages to keep the player
A buying club would do the opposite. and is likely to be paying higher wages.

Quoted from Balthazar Bullitt

If I win the euro lottery, I'll be rebuilding the Winter Gardens first and then we'll see what's left over for Town

I’ll go halves if you commit to reinstalling the Beer Festival with the mad announcer, and the Bags Ball.

Quoted from trickeymickey

Having read the postings above I decided to pick one of these sites and see what they said. I randomly came up with "Salary Sport". I dont know how accurate they are and have rounded up the figures for the players wage bills which are in £millions.
Here is the League table:
Wrexham...........5.2
MK Dons...........4.0
Stockport...........3.7
Bradford............3.6
Mansfield..........3.4
FGR..................3.4
Gillingham.........3.2
Colchester.........2.9
Salford..............2.8
Doncaster.........2.5
Notts County....2.4
Sutton..............2.2
Wimbledon......2.1
Harrogate.........2.0
Tranmere.........2.0
Walsall.............1.9
Swindon...........1.9
Grimsby............1.9
Barrow..............1.8
Crawley.............1.7
Morecambe.......1.5
Crewe................1.5
Accrington.........1.5
Newport.............!.4

I think that's well off in terms of figures some might be right , was it for last season ?

Turnover for us in our promotion season was 4.45million in the NL .

Crowds have grown , an extra million for promotion to the EFL and a million + through our FA cup run - when the accounts are released for 22/23 (last year it was the end of Feb , so maybe soon) I would expect a big increase in turnover to around 6 million , potentially over 6.5 million.

I would add an extra million onto player wage expenditure for us at least, this season to around 2.7 million + . Last season it was probably under 2.5 million .

Quoted from JK47

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/feb/15/salary-cap-leagues-competitive-reduce-agents-influence

Stockwood's latest piece in the Guardian on this topic,

Agents are destroying the game, £280m in 2023 taken out of the football straight into their pockets, what benefits do they bring to football. apart from sorting out contracts for thick footballers.

Quoted from Balthazar Bullitt

If I win the euro lottery, I'll be rebuilding the Winter Gardens first and then we'll see what's left over for Town

That was on my list if I won the euro lottery along with a yearly donation to St Andrews hospice and Once upon a wish and a brand new disabled coach with all travelled expenses covered.

Tweet 1758397626817421654 will appear here...

Andy Holt Accrington Chairman doesn't seem too pleased about the potential football regulator deal that's been offered.

Quoted from Mappers

Tweet 1758397626817421654 will appear here...

Andy Holt Accrington Chairman doesn't seem too pleased about the potential football regulator deal that's been offered.

Entirely as expected, unfortunately.

I don't have any faith that the next government which will be in place later this year would do anything different, either.

Expect a further round of consulation, with the can kicked down the road and the Premier clubs getting whatever they want at the end of it.

I think what the last couple of decades have taught us — or what it ought to have taught us — is that we, as fans of a lower league club, need to shift our expectations.

Not saying I'm happy about it, but in order to survive and have a club to support long term, we need to kiss goodbye to any hopes and dreams of playing in the Championship again, because that's clearly not possible without outside resource, and that invites greater threat of debt, and it's not sustainable in the long run.

Our ambition should be to simply compete as well as we can at whatever level we find ourselves at. Clearly, we need to be doing better than 21st in the fourth division, so by no means am I accepting mediocrity.

I'm just saying that while Mansfield, Stockport and the like are enjoying some reasonable level of success, for now, where will they be in 5-10 years if/when their funding changes?

Do their current owners have a succession plan, or is it based solely on the hope that they will be in a higher division, earning larger incomes, when they decide to step away? Because that's a big risk too, especially as more and more clubs are finding investors to fund a push up the leagues.

Not every financially backed club is going to make it up the leagues. Some will fail, and then what? I'd love to know what it's cost Salford to be where they are today.

Don't get me wrong, there are clubs like Accrington and Morecambe who have shown what's possible without outsider investment and to just be a well run club. We can move up the league and make it into L1, but it's going to take a monumental effort.

Football has changed massively since the turn of the century. Being in the fourth division shouldn't be seen as the failure it felt like when we dropped into it in 2004. The finances 20 years on are totally different. I'm also saying we shouldn't be grateful... just that, let's acknowledge the changes that have occurred and adjust what our reasonable expectations should be in this vastly different football landscape.

Quoted from RichMariner

I think what the last couple of decades have taught us — or what it ought to have taught us — is that we, as fans of a lower league club, need to shift our expectations.

Not saying I'm happy about it, but in order to survive and have a club to support long term, we need to kiss goodbye to any hopes and dreams of playing in the Championship again, because that's clearly not possible without outside resource, and that invites greater threat of debt, and it's not sustainable in the long run.

Our ambition should be to simply compete as well as we can at whatever level we find ourselves at. Clearly, we need to be doing better than 21st in the fourth division, so by no means am I accepting mediocrity.

I'm just saying that while Mansfield, Stockport and the like are enjoying some reasonable level of success, for now, where will they be in 5-10 years if/when their funding changes?

Do their current owners have a succession plan, or is it based solely on the hope that they will be in a higher division, earning larger incomes, when they decide to step away? Because that's a big risk too, especially as more and more clubs are finding investors to fund a push up the leagues.

Not every financially backed club is going to make it up the leagues. Some will fail, and then what? I'd love to know what it's cost Salford to be where they are today.

Don't get me wrong, there are clubs like Accrington and Morecambe who have shown what's possible without outsider investment and to just be a well run club. We can move up the league and make it into L1, but it's going to take a monumental effort.

Football has changed massively since the turn of the century. Being in the fourth division shouldn't be seen as the failure it felt like when we dropped into it in 2004. The finances 20 years on are totally different. I'm also saying we shouldn't be grateful... just that, let's acknowledge the changes that have occurred and adjust what our reasonable expectations should be in this vastly different football landscape.

Pretty much what I think .

I think a reasonable expectation is bottom 3rd of league 1 at best without big outside investment . Reaching even that would be good going imo .

Stockport,Mansfield , Wrexham and MK Dons go up FGR go down with 4 minnows down from league 1 and a small nl club with Chesterfield would make the landscape easier on paper at least next season - providing we stay up.

Even if we got promoted to League One it would be an immense challenge to survive. 4 go down as well it would only be a matter of time. Until we get a new stadium and the extra revenue streams it brings then we're going to be League 2 at best.

Quoted from GrimRob

Even if we got promoted to League One it would be an immense challenge to survive. 4 go down as well it would only be a matter of time. Until we get a new stadium and the extra revenue streams it brings then we're going to be League 2 at best.

Exactly this. As Andy Holt has said for years, running a football club can only be sustained by the very wealthy or some good fortune in player development.

Yes, a new stadium would help if you didn’t accrue massive debt building it. At least a new stadium would generate additional income unlike a new training ground.

Tweet 1758561768152920090 will appear here...

When football got (re) invented in 1992 or whenever it was, the game in this country was taken out of the doldrums and booted through its ar5e into the 20th century in record time. Chairman were most often than not local businessmen that had done well and wanted to put back something into their community, or wave their tackle about at. Then came along the Russian oligarchs, the Americans and finally the Middle Eastern businessmen and the community feel went by the wayside.

In came day-trippers and bloggers wanting nothing more than their egotistical foreheads rubbed via likes and followers. Out went the every day bloke that wanted to spend some time with his mates or family because no longer could they afford the biweekly home match cost of upwards of £200 just to watch some blokes that were earning £20k plus a week not even giving a fu(k and wearing gloves because it was only 14c.

We have now, a couple of blokes that take the welfare of our club seriously and are sticking to the rules. Not everyone is going to like what they say or do, that’s patently obvious, but, I somehow can’t foresee us ending up like that sprawling mass of hysteria down the m180.

Quoted from trickeymickey

Having read the postings above I decided to pick one of these sites and see what they said. I randomly came up with "Salary Sport". I dont know how accurate they are and have rounded up the figures for the players wage bills which are in £millions.

I guess Donny, Gillingham and Wimbledon would be propped up abit due to parachute payments with relegation from League One, although I've not checked how much it is to be honest. Crewe as well, and I'm surprised if their salary is that low.

Quoted from Mappers

Pretty much what I think .

I think a reasonable expectation is bottom 3rd of league 1 at best without big outside investment . Reaching even that would be good going imo .

Stockport,Mansfield , Wrexham and MK Dons go up FGR go down with 4 minnows down from league 1 and a small nl club with Chesterfield would make the landscape easier on paper at least next season - providing we stay up.

Based upon where we are there’s no way league one can be deceived as a “reasonable expectation”.

I’m not sure how that’s justifiable.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Based upon where we are there’s no way league one can be deceived as a “reasonable expectation”.

I’m not sure how that’s justifiable.

The grim reality is that it’s becoming less and less possible to ‘punch above your weight’. It costs a lot of money to even stand still.

Barrow are just below us in the salary table (shown above). They could get automatic promotion this season. They also play good football so are clearly managed well on limited resources.

I agree though with other posters that we would struggle to survive in Div 1 without new funding over a sustained period.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Based upon where we are there’s no way league one can be deceived as a “reasonable expectation”.

I’m not sure how that’s justifiable.

Burton, Cheltenham ,Wycombe , Stevenage , Exeter and Cambridge .

Barrow Crewe and Harrogate are giving it a good go this season on limited resource to get out of league 2 .

It's not easy but far from impossible .

Quoted from TownSNAFU5

Barrow are just below us in the salary table (shown above). They could get automatic promotion this season. They also play good football so are clearly managed well on limited resources.

The problem is though is it's easy to pluck counterexamples but in general money buys success and lack of it buys struggling. It's possible to buck the trend but I suspect even dabbling with promotion is only going to happen occasionally. Normally by February it's all over. Any half decent player we have is normally flogged within a season. We have no chance to develop a settled squad.

The professional game has grown. There are 5 professional leagues now and many full time clubs lower down. We're still playing at a good level it's just the game is more popular and the interest has mushroomed. Depressing as recalibration is l think its the reality we face.

Quoted from Mappers

Burton, Cheltenham ,Wycombe , Stevenage , Exeter and Cambridge .

Barrow Crewe and Harrogate are giving it a good go this season on limited resource to get out of league 2 .

It's not easy but far from impossible .

Like I say based upon where we are now.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Like I say based upon where we are now.

Well based on where we are now I'm more worried about going to Tamworth next season so get your point

Quoted from Mappers

Colchester , Crawley and Leyton Orient all posting big big losses in the last couple of weeks .

Just to try and compete or get out of league 2

I don't mind so much if someone puts the money in as a hobby or whatever and won't let the club go when they have finished , it's more the Crawley/Scunthorpe scenario when the club/and, or stadium is leveraged against loads of debt which will leave the club eventually in a mess or worse .

That's why although on the pitch it's bad atm I struggle to be too harsh on Stockwood & Pettit as they are at least trying their best to run the club the right way . Unfortunately the right way does not always mean success .

For now. Maybe we are ahead of the curve.

Things often look very bleak and people think we will never re capture past glories, but it most certainly can be done.

When we used to beat Luton on a regular basis as recently as our non league days they must have felt similarly that their fortunes would never change. I do remember their fans being rather arrogant and wanted/needed/expected things to improve because rightly they thought their club better than non-league. Look at them now!

I think often the first step is the hardest so probably with not as much money as some but more shrewdness we can take that first step and then things might start to look different.

Back to reality though - we simply have to survive this season.