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Quoted from DB

Another letter in the Guardian from Jason. Click on if you want to read it.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/feb/01/business-and-football-unique-nature-of-sport-rule-unto-itself

I read that this morning, and I think the conclusion was you cannot "overlay" standard succesful business practice onto a football club, as the industry is so unique. I would have thought that obvious myself but it will be interesting to see if he changes his approach to anything in the months ahead.

I agree that he does seem to be presenting the obvious, just in a slightly academic manner. That football as an industry (which of course it never started as) is different from your average industry out there isn’t really news.

Presenting the blindingly obvious as if it’s some kind of earth-shattering insight is, by and large, what most of the media around football is based on. We’re just as guilty of it as fans sometimes!

Always worth a read when it’s from someone genuinely embedded in the game.

Does this mean that B Corp isnt particularly relevent or useful in the Football "industry"?
I ask because Jason talks about the practice of selling players against their will, and the transfer of contracts for fees, I would assume this goes against the grain of everything B Corp status stands for.

As usual, a very interesting read but I'm surprised that, as a fan, he hadn't worked this out before.

I’d rather read the Lords Prayer backwards

Quoted from Azimuth

Does this mean that B Corp isnt particularly relevent or useful in the Football "industry"?
I ask because Jason talks about the practice of selling players against their will, and the transfer of contracts for fees, I would assume this goes against the grain of everything B Corp status stands for.

Have GTFC (whose owners want to become a B Corp) tried to sell any players against their will? Nope.

The B Corp thing is partially about treating staff and customers fairly regardless of the industry. Why would one company behaving badly (as many do), mean that others in the same industry couldn't behave in a better manner? Just because we're trying to get B Corp status, doesn't mean that other football clubs have to do the same.

Quoted from It Bites

I’d rather read the Lords Prayer backwards

In Japanese...........................

.............................in a dark room

.................................................................with hundreds of poisonous snakes

...............................................................................................................and a uzi 9mm pointed at your head with a movement sensor on it?

Quoted from WayneBurnettsJockstrap

In Japanese...........................

.............................in a dark room

.................................................................with hundreds of poisonous snakes

...............................................................................................................and a uzi 9mm pointed at your head with a movement sensor on it?

Absolutely

Great, I was only thinking this morning it's a while since we've had a debate on what B Corp actually is and how we can use a made up understanding of what it is to bash the club with.

A football club isn't a business, not really. It is in that they have accounts and shareholders but normal businesses don't have fans. The closest thing is maybe a pop band, but even then people transfer their loyalty between bands and support many bands at once. Or cars, most people have just one at a time, but not many people swear allegiance to Mercedes for life!

The extraordinary thing is if you look at the league tables from 100 years ago it's largely the same names as you see today and even the big clubs then are largely biggish now. Nothing else is like it, even bands are usually soon forgotten when their founders either die or disband. Or sectors with long-standing firms like banks/car manufacturers/newpapers/fashion/luxury brands.

Imagine losing a title by such fine margins!

Quoted Text

In the final match of the season, Cardiff faced Birmingham in the reverse fixture at St Andrew's while Huddersfield hosted Nottingham Forest. A win for Cardiff would guarantee the club its first title regardless of Huddersfield's result while a draw would leave Huddersfield needing to win by three goals to win the title on goal average.[33] Cardiff's match remained goalless for 70 minutes when the side were awarded a penalty after a goal-bound header from Gill was blocked on the line by the hand of Birmingham defender Eli Ashurst. Regular penalty taker Jack Evans had suffered misses in previous months and Gill was reluctant to take responsibility.[39] Top scorer Len Davies instead stepped up to take the penalty, the first senior attempt in his career,[40] but he sent a tame effort at the opposition goalkeeper who saved comfortably. Despite the miss, Cardiff were still on course to win the league title as Huddersfield led Forest by a single goal. However, in the final 20 minutes, Huddersfield scored a further two goals to win the match 3–0 and overtake Cardiff to win the title on goal average by 0.024 of a goal. The result remains the narrowest margin of victory ever recorded in the top tier of English football.[41][42][43] It was also the first time the championship had ever been decided by the method of goal average.[44]

Love this end note though

Quoted Text

In the dressing room at the end of the match, the Cardiff players signed a congratulatory telegram that was sent to Huddersfield.[39]

Here we go with the Bash B Corps again, FFS, does it really matter?

Quoted from GrimRob

100 years ago

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100 years ago

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Size: 42.84 KB

Buirnley, the reporter must have had a pint or two.

Quoted from DB

Buirnley, the reporter must have had a pint or two.

We’d only have known if grimbsy had been in that league

Quoted from DB

Buirnley, the reporter must have had a pint or two.

We’d only have known if grimbsy had been in that league

Quoted from DB

Buirnley, the reporter must have had a pint or two.

It’s written in local accent.

Quoted from GrimRob

A football club isn't a business, not really. It is in that they have accounts and shareholders but normal businesses don't have fans. The closest thing is maybe a pop band, but even then people transfer their loyalty between bands and support many bands at once. Or cars, most people have just one at a time, but not many people swear allegiance to Mercedes for life!

The extraordinary thing is if you look at the league tables from 100 years ago it's largely the same names as you see today and even the big clubs then are largely biggish now. Nothing else is like it, even bands are usually soon forgotten when their founders either die or disband. Or sectors with long-standing firms like banks/car manufacturers/newpapers/fashion/luxury brands.

Interesting to note that table from 100 years ago is mainly made up of Northern and Midlands teams with a sprinkling of London teams.

Compare that with today's Premier League table which is mainly Midlands and Southern team with the odd sprinkling of Northern teams.

Most likely down to the heavy industry in the North 100 years ago, now most of the money is all congregated in and around London.

Still, at least we have Boris's 'levelling up' campaign to even that out somewhat... oh wait!

Quoted from GrimRob

A football club isn't a business, not really. It is in that they have accounts and shareholders but normal businesses don't have fans. The closest thing is maybe a pop band, but even then people transfer their loyalty between bands and support many bands at once. Or cars, most people have just one at a time, but not many people swear allegiance to Mercedes for life!

The extraordinary thing is if you look at the league tables from 100 years ago it's largely the same names as you see today and even the big clubs then are largely biggish now. Nothing else is like it, even bands are usually soon forgotten when their founders either die or disband. Or sectors with long-standing firms like banks/car manufacturers/newpapers/fashion/luxury brands.

Yeah but some business’s can lose all their customers very quickly by saying the wrong thing , ask Gerald Ratner

Quoted from GrimRob

A football club isn't a business, not really. It is in that they have accounts and shareholders but normal businesses don't have fans. The closest thing is maybe a pop band, but even then people transfer their loyalty between bands and support many bands at once. Or cars, most people have just one at a time, but not many people swear allegiance to Mercedes for life!

The extraordinary thing is if you look at the league tables from 100 years ago it's largely the same names as you see today and even the big clubs then are largely biggish now. Nothing else is like it, even bands are usually soon forgotten when their founders either die or disband. Or sectors with long-standing firms like banks/car manufacturers/newpapers/fashion/luxury brands.

I think that was the point JS was trying to make.

Quoted from Maringer

Have GTFC (whose owners want to become a B Corp) tried to sell any players against their will? Nope.

The B Corp thing is partially about treating staff and customers fairly regardless of the industry. Why would one company behaving badly (as many do), mean that others in the same industry couldn't behave in a better manner? Just because we're trying to get B Corp status, doesn't mean that other football clubs have to do the same.

I wasnt necessarily talking about GTFC which was why I said the football industry.
I dont know if we have ever sold a player against their will but we have certainly released a lot of players, whilst not illegal being the nature of the contracts and game it could be seen as somewhat unfair against the individuals concerned, hence my question.

Quoted from 123614

Here we go with the Bash B Corps again, FFS, does it really matter?

Whos bashing?
I was merely asking if it is relavent to the Football industry given that Jason states in his piece how unique it is compared to a "normal business".

Quoted from Azimuth

I wasnt necessarily talking about GTFC which was why I said the football industry.
I dont know if we have ever sold a player against their will but we have certainly released a lot of players, whilst not illegal being the nature of the contracts and game it could be seen as somewhat unfair against the individuals concerned, hence my question.

What could potentially be deemed as unfair or unethical in settling on a pay-off which is less than what we contractually committed to. Football is a different industry though and ethical standards have to reflect those nuances. If word got around that we always settled in full, I dread to think how many tools would get downed each season.

Quoted from MarinerMal

Interesting to note that table from 100 years ago is mainly made up of Northern and Midlands teams with a sprinkling of London teams.

Compare that with today's Premier League table which is mainly Midlands and Southern team with the odd sprinkling of Northern teams.

Most likely down to the heavy industry in the North 100 years ago, now most of the money is all congregated in and around London.

Still, at least we have Boris's 'levelling up' campaign to even that out somewhat... oh wait!

There are 9 from the North & Midlands and 11 from London and the South now, not a bad split until you look at the map of clubs (see link below). They are concentrated in a line running from the South East to the North West. Bournemouth and Newcastle are literally the only outliers. Bournemouth are likely to get relegated within a year or two as well and probably replaced by an "axis" team.

https://www.thefishy.co.uk/football-grounds.php?table=1

The other English professional leagues cover a much wider area.

Quoted from GrimRob

Bournemouth are likely to get relegated within a year or two as well and probably replaced by an "axis" team.
.

Germany or Italy do you think?

Quoted from GrimRob

There are 9 from the North & Midlands and 11 from London and the South now, not a bad split until you look at the map of clubs (see link below). They are concentrated in a line running from the South East to the North West. Bournemouth and Newcastle are literally the only outliers. Bournemouth are likely to get relegated within a year or two as well and probably replaced by an "axis" team.

https://www.thefishy.co.uk/football-grounds.php?table=1

The other English professional leagues cover a much wider area.

Follows the population density map very faithfully. Big clubs are based where lots of people live it seems.
https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:2600/1*7PuOErZ1mOwPRURYEqkhOg.png

Quoted from Azimuth

I wasnt necessarily talking about GTFC which was why I said the football industry.
I dont know if we have ever sold a player against their will but we have certainly released a lot of players, whilst not illegal being the nature of the contracts and game it could be seen as somewhat unfair against the individuals concerned, hence my question.

Yeah, but the thing is that you can only 'release' a player from their contract if they agree to it (and they only usually do this if they have a move lined up). If a player is under contract, you owe them the money stated in the contract and have to pay it by hook or by crook unless a settlement is agreed between both parties.

Unethical behaviour could (and probably does) occur when unscrupulous agents are involved in alliance with unscrupulous owners, but footballers are generally well taken care of with the PFA helping out when required.

Quoted from Azimuth

Does this mean that B Corp isnt particularly relevent or useful in the Football "industry"?
I ask because Jason talks about the practice of selling players against their will, and the transfer of contracts for fees, I would assume this goes against the grain of everything B Corp status stands for.

Probably because you don’t understand it. Or indeed anything.

Quoted from nomorefourfiveone

Follows the population density map very faithfully. Big clubs are based where lots of people live it seems.
https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:2600/1*7PuOErZ1mOwPRURYEqkhOg.png

Good point. So if anything "levelling up" has happened naturally in football.

Quoted from MarinerMal

Interesting to note that table from 100 years ago is mainly made up of Northern and Midlands teams with a sprinkling of London teams.

Compare that with today's Premier League table which is mainly Midlands and Southern team with the odd sprinkling of Northern teams.

Most likely down to the heavy industry in the North 100 years ago, now most of the money is all congregated in and around London.

Still, at least we have Boris's 'levelling up' campaign to even that out somewhat... oh wait!

It’s not really the odd sprinkling though is it? Liverpool, Everton, Man City, Man United, Newcastle, Burnley and Sheffield United are all northern teams.

It's just population centres, really.

Liverpool/Everton can both co-exist because there aren't really any other clubs in the Merseyside area (Tranmere aside, I suppose). Sheffield has its support split between two teams and there are loads of other reasonably-sized local teams in South Yorkshire. Leeds probably ought to do better, although they do also do a fair bit of rugby. Bratfud as much rugby as football. Newcastle, only club in the area (drawing fans from most of Northumberland and Durham). Birmingham split between two clubs with other biggish clubs in the area. Nottingham split between two clubs. Two big clubs in Manchester but the surrounding towns have very much smaller teams.

Burnley are a notable exception at the moment, but it won't be long before they are back out of the PL, I'd have thought.

It's mostly just about catchment and local competition which is always going to limit us as most of our surroundings are water!

Quoted from Maringer

It's just population centres, really.

Liverpool/Everton can both co-exist because there aren't really any other clubs in the Merseyside area (Tranmere aside, I suppose). Sheffield has its support split between two teams and there are loads of other reasonably-sized local teams in South Yorkshire. Leeds probably ought to do better, although they do also do a fair bit of rugby. Bratfud as much rugby as football. Newcastle, only club in the area (drawing fans from most of Northumberland and Durham). Birmingham split between two clubs with other biggish clubs in the area. Nottingham split between two clubs. Two big clubs in Manchester but the surrounding towns have very much smaller teams.

Burnley are a notable exception at the moment, but it won't be long before they are back out of the PL, I'd have thought.

It's mostly just about catchment and local competition which is always going to limit us as most of our surroundings are water!

Because football was created so long ago there are also far too many teams in London than there would be if it were invented today. Really, some of them should have consolidated as other Victorian businesses have through mergers. I think there are about 15 professional football teams in London (maybe a few more if you include non-league). Compare that with Paris, or the USA cities. I think PSG wasn't created until the 1970s and the US clubs are even newer. We have inherited our football sides and cricket counties from the Victorians. Because of the tradition of fan bases, any attempt at merger is greeted with horror.

https://www.myfootygrounds.co.uk/AreaMap.asp?view=ENGLAND

This is a map of all clubs and you can see when zooming in/out the clubs around them (I don't think it shows below LG2).

Quoted from GrimRob

Because football was created so long ago there are also far too many teams in London than there would be if it were invented today. Really, some of them should have consolidated as other Victorian businesses have through mergers. I think there are about 15 professional football teams in London (maybe a few more if you include non-league). Compare that with Paris, or the USA cities. I think PSG wasn't created until the 1970s and the US clubs are even newer. We have inherited our football sides and cricket counties from the Victorians. Because of the tradition of fan bases, any attempt at merger is greeted with horror.

Don’t really get that comment about London having to many teams . City of 8/9m so 650k population per club matches any other city in the UK. 400-500k combined average gates at those clubs. If we were like Paris one main club how do you get them all into the
Going further down the League there has been a steady loss of EFL teams in traditional old Northern working class towns with steady or declining populations generally being replaced by teams in more affluent southern towns who have struggled to build up a supporter base because of their lack of history
The old Victorian structure is the bedrock of us having such a succesful league structure.

Yeah, London is fundamentally a city state in all but name. So many people live down there that there are plenty of fans for most of the teams, even with Arsenal and Spurs being the two biggest clubs by some distance these days.

We do have masses of professional clubs and no other European country can really compete with the number which we have (Turkey aside, perhaps). Even in countries like Italy, Germany, Spain and France, the third tier clubs aren't anything as like as substantial as ours. I suppose it is because consolidation or regions had really taken place a lot more before most of the clubs really became established in the early 20th century. Most of ours had been on the go for decades by then.

Quoted from Maringer

Yeah, London is fundamentally a city state in all but name. So many people live down there that there are plenty of fans for most of the teams, even with Arsenal and Spurs being the two biggest clubs by some distance these days.

We do have masses of professional clubs and no other European country can really compete with the number which we have (Turkey aside, perhaps). Even in countries like Italy, Germany, Spain and France, the third tier clubs aren't anything as like as substantial as ours. I suppose it is because consolidation or regions had really taken place a lot more before most of the clubs really became established in the early 20th century. Most of ours had been on the go for decades by then.

Whilst Grimsby is my team I also follow Tottenham and went down to the Brentford game on Wednesday night with my son (£85 a bleeding ticket!!). We caught the 11.33pm train to Leeds home and it was rammed with not enough seats for the passengers with hundreds of Spurs fans on. Whilst a good many alighted at Peterborough I was shocked how many had travelled down from the Newark and Yorkshire areas. Frightening what some of them must have paid in total to attend but demonstrates how disperse a clubs fan base actually is.

Quoted from mariner91

It’s not really the odd sprinkling though is it? Liverpool, Everton, Man City, Man United, Newcastle, Burnley and Sheffield United are all northern teams.

Well there are 7 so probably 'the odd sprinkly' wasn't as accurate as I could have been. However, we could lose 3 of them at the end of the season, leaving just 4 with perhaps only Leeds with a fair chance of replacing one of them as a northern team.

When you compare it to 100 years ago there were 12 teams that made up over half of the League...
Huddersfield, Sunderland, Bolton, Sheff Utd, Blackburn, Newcastle, Man City, Liverpool, Everton, Burnley, Prestion, Middlesborough.

Middleborough were relegated along with Chelsea but were replaced by Leeds United and.... wait for it... Bury!

So the next season had 13 northern teams. So my point about a power shift to the south still stands. Still it wasn't meant as a stunning revelation, just an observation.

Quoted from HerveJosse

Don’t really get that comment about London having to many teams . City of 8/9m so 650k population per club matches any other city in the UK. 400-500k combined average gates at those clubs. If we were like Paris one main club how do you get them all into the
Going further down the League there has been a steady loss of EFL teams in traditional old Northern working class towns with steady or declining populations generally being replaced by teams in more affluent southern towns who have struggled to build up a supporter base because of their lack of history
The old Victorian structure is the bedrock of us having such a succesful league structure.

Considering how much bigger than other cities London is, it should dominate football but rarely has as the talent and support is spread across the capital. If you look at newer sports like basketball/ice hockey/american sports they generally have a team called London. They might have other teams from the home counties as well but there is a designated London team. I suspect that's what football would be like if it was invented today. I am quite happy with the way things are, pleased that the provinces dominate. I wish our neck of the woods punched at a higher weight mind but it might again one day.

Quoted from Azimuth

Does this mean that B Corp isnt particularly relevent or useful in the Football "industry"?
I ask because Jason talks about the practice of selling players against their will, and the transfer of contracts for fees, I would assume this goes against the grain of everything B Corp status stands for.

Hit the nail on the head there, b corp probably great if your selling insurance nt so great when people's livelihoods are on the line