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It's easy to fire shots at the Head of Recruitment, who was also responsible for fielding the managerial applications, but Hurst had the final say on signings and I'm sure Artell will this month too.

Eastwood, Eisa, Gnahoua, Pyke are all players Hurst had worked with previously. Mullarkey is someone we went after last January when the Head of Recruitment had been here 5 minutes, and Danny Rose is a great player at this level that every manager should want in their team. Charles Vernam had been on the cards for a number of transfer windows dating back to before the Head of Recruitment was here. Vernam on a 3 year deal does seem insane though given his injury record.

Rodgers has a lot of games under his belt at a higher level, so I do think he will come good once he gets some confidence back. Conteh is a promising prospect, and both of these are potentially recommendations from the Head of Recruitment.

Looking from the outside in, I think most of our signings haven't been recommendations of the Head of Recruitment.

Quoted from Yoda

Who are you ginny the fishy police.

One thing he is not, is a garbage spouting idiot, unlike some people on here.

Quoted from 123614

One thing he is not, is a garbage spouting idiot, unlike some people on here.

Ha its someone else's turn 🤣

Big town obviously if you don’t know who the head of recruitment is.

If it helps I think he also is responsible for the purchase of Scotch Eggs and ensuring we get BCorp status them being the priority before finding us a decent centre back.

Hope that saves everyone the trouble of slagging yet another member of staff off.

Yoda, enough is enough, you keep starting threads that are actually a load of bollox!..
Yes, we got dicked by Walsall, but that's no reason to keep spouting tripe and blocking up the forum!!..
And for what its worth, Joe Hutchison ls widely respected, Lincoln built have their squad on his input, and by all accounts Hurst pretty much ignored him as the messiah always "new best" and scouting with your eyes is better than using a data led approach!..yep, Hurst signed a crock of shite that Artell now has to get a tune of!!..

Calm down fishies just wondered who he is never heard him mentioned.

Yoda is a troll who seems to enjoy the attention they get by making random cynical or critical posts.

They need either blocking or ignoring.

Yoda is just a troll, so don't get worked up by anything that he/she/it posts. Actually, might as well use the modern 'them' so we don't have to specify a gender. I suspect this would irritate them, which can't be bad.

You don't get a negative approval rating of close to 3,000 without putting in a disturbing amount of effort to post divisive bullshite.

Surprised at the number of gold stars people have apparently awarded them, but I suppose it is perfectly possible that they have got one or two other sock puppet accounts set up to upvote themselves.

Remember, don't feed the trolls.

Quoted from Yoda

Who are you ginny the fishy police.

Just a happy clapper. Same old same old . do not question the regime or the narrative

Quoted from male private Nale

Just a happy clapper. Same old same old . do not question the regime or the narrative

Just go to the paper and slag the fans off like you? flipping snake

Quoted from Hagrid

Just go to the paper and slag the fans off like you? flipping snake

Genuine question; do we have reasonable confidence that our friend male private here is in fact our former “stadium manager” Nick Dale, as opposed someone who has merely attempted a clever, topical play on words and instead merely ended up with a synonym for “pènis” as their moniker?

Quoted from Yoda

We keep hearing about a stats guy and two people involved in recruitment if so who are they.?
Did PH have a say on recruitement it was is purely the stats team.
I find it hard to think PH signed so many poor players, if it was purely the head of recruitement doesn’t he have questions to answer.

Instead of posting yet another dumb as intercourse thread on here why not simply go onto the official Grimsby Town website and click on this link containing a list of club employees to find out the answer:

Yet again another, totally unfair in my opinion, pop at Joe Hutchinson.

Firstly, it isn’t the blokes job to go and sign who he wants and just give them to the manager. He will draw up lists and options within the framework he will have been given by the manager and present those to the them. Speaking to agents, finding who might be available etc etc

Presumably his role is then to recruit them within the budget and deal with agents etc once the Manager has given a go ahead, as it takes that side off his plate also. Quite often PH and Artel have said “I need to check with Joe where we are” so think that’s a fair assumption

Of the players brought in. Pyke, Wilson and Rose you’d argue are a success. Despite a couple of niggly injuries to two of them, they’ve all scored goals at a decent per game ratio. Remember when we were all losing our excrement about signing a striker that scores goals - we signed three and one of which in Rose is better than anything we’ve had for years.

Mullarkey and Rodgers - the jury definitley still out on them, if getting a little close to returning a verdict.

Conteh - has had some poor form and been inconsistent. But he’s just turned 21 and has shown lots of promise. As PH said he didn’t know of him and this was Joe’s suggestion - if it comes good that’s a big chance of earning some serious money.

Vernam - been here before and was on the cards for a while well before Joe. Injury early on so no chance to judge

Eisa - done ok and scored goals so a decent addition?

Ghanoua - worked with PH before and signed after a trial so hardly strikes as an enforced addition.

So all in all the issue generally lies with established players who were here last season, some senior pros, not performing. Maher, Waterfall, Holohan, Khan, Clifton all having poor seasons. Let’s not just take the easy route of looking to just have a pop at someone when actually the reality of the facts don’t really support that.

Quoted from Poojah

Genuine question; do we have reasonable confidence that our friend male private here is in fact our former “stadium manager” Nick Dale, as opposed someone who has merely attempted a clever, topical play on words and instead merely ended up with a synonym for “pènis” as their moniker?

I think this is the real Nick ‘pint of bitter please’ Dale - making an absolutely undignified gonk of himself with every post, or a really clever parody account.

Quoted from Yoda

Who are you ginny the fishy police.

I'm quite pleased by the irony of you getting a bit wound up at my post, when you clearly start threads and make posts aimed at winding people up.

If you lack the emotional intelligence to have your contributions challenged, then maybe a public forum isn't the medium for you.

I don’t know what the answer is but it’s clear that some of the players have quality. We can be very good as we have seen……..

Last week a few getting excited after Salford, this week we're all doomed. Artell been here 5 mins and said would be ups and downs.

Quoted from Mikey_345

Of the players brought in. Pyke, Wilson and Rose you’d argue are a success. Despite a couple of niggly injuries to two of them, they’ve all scored goals at a decent per game ratio. Remember when we were all losing our excrement about signing a striker that scores goals - we signed three and one of which in Rose is better than anything we’ve had for years.

I'd argue that starting the season with just 3 strikers in the squad is a real failing, especially as only Rose can really do the job of leading the line. Pyke seems to do better from wide positions, but we would have been royally screwed had Rose picked up even a medium-term injury before now.

Other than Rose, I've not been enormously impressed with any of the other signings, though they've all had their good games on occasion.

I'm not claiming that the lack of numbers up top is the fault of the recruitment guy, incidentally. The buck stops with the manager/head coach and Hurst really made a pig's ear of the summer's transfer window.

Quoted from Poojah

Genuine question; do we have reasonable confidence that our friend male private here is in fact our former “stadium manager” Nick Dale, as opposed someone who has merely attempted a clever, topical play on words and instead merely ended up with a synonym for “pènis” as their moniker?

I can tell you for a fact it is not Nick Dale. He has no interest in anything GTFC since he left. I do think it is another ex employee though mentioning no names

Quoted from Mikey_345

Yet again another, totally unfair in my opinion, pop at Joe Hutchinson.

Firstly, it isn’t the blokes job to go and sign who he wants and just give them to the manager. He will draw up lists and options within the framework he will have been given by the manager and present those to the them. Speaking to agents, finding who might be available etc etc

Presumably his role is then to recruit them within the budget and deal with agents etc once the Manager has given a go ahead, as it takes that side off his plate also. Quite often PH and Artel have said “I need to check with Joe where we are” so think that’s a fair assumption

Of the players brought in. Pyke, Wilson and Rose you’d argue are a success. Despite a couple of niggly injuries to two of them, they’ve all scored goals at a decent per game ratio. Remember when we were all losing our excrement about signing a striker that scores goals - we signed three and one of which in Rose is better than anything we’ve had for years.

Mullarkey and Rodgers - the jury definitley still out on them, if getting a little close to returning a verdict.

Conteh - has had some poor form and been inconsistent. But he’s just turned 21 and has shown lots of promise. As PH said he didn’t know of him and this was Joe’s suggestion - if it comes good that’s a big chance of earning some serious money.

Vernam - been here before and was on the cards for a while well before Joe. Injury early on so no chance to judge

Eisa - done ok and scored goals so a decent addition?

Ghanoua - worked with PH before and signed after a trial so hardly strikes as an enforced addition.

So all in all the issue generally lies with established players who were here last season, some senior pros, not performing. Maher, Waterfall, Holohan, Khan, Clifton all having poor seasons. Let’s not just take the easy route of looking to just have a pop at someone when actually the reality of the facts don’t really support that.

Firstly, if many you mentioned are so good why are we in the excrement yet again?

As regards Waterfall, Khan and probably Holohan, they haven't played that many games.

Quoted from Rob_in_Grimsby

I can tell you for a fact it is not Nick Dale. He has no interest in anything GTFC since he left. I do think it is another ex employee though mentioning no names

I'm surprised that so many dummies on here actually thought he was.

My thoughts on the players and our form is.

Artell is a deep thinker and maybe the players have a bit of trouble trying to get their heads round what he wants.

When they get it right we have the Salford result and when they are a bit confused of what he wants in the next game we get the Walsall result.

So I am hoping in a few weeks they will be more comfortable with what David demands from them which will vary from week to week. and we will show more consistency and better results.

Here is hoping. 8)

Quoted from arryarryarry

Firstly, if many you mentioned are so good why are we in the excrement yet again?

As regards Waterfall, Khan and probably Holohan, they haven't played that many games.

Well… I think I only said a couple had been ok and 1/2 look good so far - not sure what is debatable about that? But feel free to say where you disagree.

As for why are we so excrement, the back four is a big issue.

Also, if you’re not performing - not playing much is usually what follows..

Quoted from Bristol Mariner

Last week a few getting excited after Salford, this week we're all doomed. Artell been here 5 mins and said would be ups and downs.

This is exactly the point.

We were pretty good against a poor Salford, played pretty well for most of the first half against Walsall then made a couple of catastrophic mistakes. It was like letting air out of a balloon.

We’ve got a 10 day window to clear our heads, hopefully sign some players and move on again. I’ve no idea whether we signed who Joe Hutchinson recommended in the summer window but that window won’t look great on his CV, I’m pretty sure we will release those not good enough to play the system and recruit those who can.

There'a a certain ex-gtfc employee with a penchant for conducting cliched interviews in close proximity to noisy lawnmowers who absolutely loves to create fake accounts for trolling purposes and has been previously caught out on twitter doing so. Really wouldn't be surprised if one or more of the pro-fenty anti-1878 troll accounts on here belong to him.

Quoted from Maringer

I'd argue that starting the season with just 3 strikers in the squad is a real failing, especially as only Rose can really do the job of leading the line. Pyke seems to do better from wide positions, but we would have been royally screwed had Rose picked up even a medium-term injury before now.

Other than Rose, I've not been enormously impressed with any of the other signings, though they've all had their good games on occasion.

I'm not claiming that the lack of numbers up top is the fault of the recruitment guy, incidentally. The buck stops with the manager/head coach and Hurst really made a pig's ear of the summer's transfer window.

Yeah esp when one of those three strikers (Pyke) isn't even a striker, he's a wide attacker. Wilson seems more of a super sub type, doesn't seem suited to 90 minutes or seem to offer a great deal other than a goal. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing for a striker and I think he's a valid member of a squad, but not as the number 2 backup striker.

Even more bizarre when we had a striker in the building in orsi, who whilst not the best wasn't the worst either and was certainly better as a lone centre forward than Pyke. So odd that we let him walk and didnt sign anybody to replace him, presumably a deal fell through at the last minute, but managers have to live and die by those decisions and it was certainly one that cost Hurst. We can only thank our lucky stars Rose hasn't been injured or else we'd probably be in or about the bottom spots, he is essential for us and irreplaceable by anyone in the squad.

If Rose gets injured we are down
Pyke and Wilson are ok but they like an injury.

Is Yoda really dumb, or a troll account of a regular here who is too chicken excrement to actually speak their opinion because they care about their internet reputation so much that they hide behind an alt?

They're certainly the first two of your suggestions and lack the intelligence to think about the third.

Still trying to decide whether this is a thread about Joe Hutchinson or Yoda TBH, so clearly the latter had to a degree achieved the result he no doubt desired.

I share the same view as some posters in that I assume Joe's role is based upon a brief from the manager to search for players that may be available and fit the brief, research targets both in terms of performance but also personality then presents his findings to PH/DA to see if they tick the box. It would be unrealistic to think he does not have some engagement with agents but to what degree I'm not sure.

If you search the interview the club we site did with Conteh when he joined you get an idea of Joe's value in that he seemed to build a relationship with Conteh (and no doubt his agent) ahead of PH getting too involved, something a manager working in isolation to recruit probably wouldn't have the time to do, but also in the case of Conteh it appeared really helped in making GTFC an attractive proposition.

In addition to the above if Joe has started to build a relationship with a target it really helps in terms of understanding how to engage the individual, the key word being "individual" as he may need a different approach for each player, possibly again something that a manager may not have time to do.

Some posters seem to believe that Joe signs player and gives them to the manager to utilise or that in the summer PH went off and signed his own players and just ignored Joe, both theories are complete nonsense and just suit the narrative of people who want to have a dig as we're not storming the league.

Joe Hutchinson cannot be held accountable for Mullarkey and Andrews seemingly jogging back whilst Waterfall tries to prevent the first Walsall goal on Monday or the various examples of nobody tracking opposition runners from midfield or the numerous defensive errors this term, the accountability for that and more importantly fixing that sits with the Manager/Head Coach who actually signed the players.

I don't know Joe are in reality what he does but I'm sure having someone in that role adds value, especially at a time (Jan window) when the manager and his coaches need to spend as much time on the training pitch as possible fixing the issues that are holding us back.

If we weren't in a bit of a scary position then this might be an interesting topic but proximity to the trap door is clearly impacting emotions on a lot of these threads.

There's a lot to try and unpack for the club around whats going wrong at the moment. How we are recruiting and who's involved with this aspect of the club has clearly not worked in the way hoped, why that is I think they need to look at in great depth.

Looking at the players they seem reasonable enough signings at face value, however it doesn't appear to be turning out like that. Perhaps they have some common underlying deficiencies that the stats haven't shown up possibly because these attributes have been masked by other strengths of team mates at previous clubs.

Given the amount we appear to have invested in staffing you would not imagine its a fitness issue and with all the data we now have access to this must be fairly easy to rule in or out.

We clearly have a soft centre, perhaps we need to get a sports psychologist in to work with them.

I don't know but there's clearly some root cause and the club need to get to the heart of it pretty quickly.

Quoted from Swansea_Mariner

If we weren't in a bit of a scary position then this might be an interesting topic but proximity to the trap door is clearly impacting emotions on a lot of these threads.

There's a lot to try and unpack for the club around whats going wrong at the moment. How we are recruiting and who's involved with this aspect of the club has clearly not worked in the way hoped, why that is I think they need to look at in great depth.

Looking at the players they seem reasonable enough signings at face value, however it doesn't appear to be turning out like that. Perhaps they have some common underlying deficiencies that the stats haven't shown up possibly because these attributes have been masked by other strengths of team mates at previous clubs.

Given the amount we appear to have invested in staffing you would not imagine its a fitness issue and with all the data we now have access to this must be fairly easy to rule in or out.

We clearly have a soft centre, perhaps we need to get a sports psychologist in to work with them.

I don't know but there's clearly some root cause and the club need to get to the heart of it pretty quickly.

It's the same principle as when you sign say a 20 goal striker who when he plays for you can't hit a barn door.

Everything is different. Teammates are different, the manager is different, the environment and everything else is different, and it might even be at a different level.

Football is too subjective to take data seriously; what it takes to put a competitive team together is very complex, often intuitive and is so influenced by money and outside factors.

Yes I know data is here to stay as there is a huge industry built on the back of it and it can useful in certain areas. People say it is successful for certain clubs but most aren't, and those that are usually have a lot of other things going in their favour.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

It's the same principle as when you sign say a 20 goal striker who when he plays for you can't hit a barn door.

Everything is different. Teammates are different, the manager is different, the environment and everything else is different, and it might even be at a different level.

Football is too subjective to take data seriously; what it takes to put a competitive team together is very complex, often intuitive and is so influenced by money and outside factors.

Yes I know data is here to stay as there is a huge industry built on the back of it and it can useful in certain areas. People say it is successful for certain clubs but most aren't, and those that are usually have a lot of other things going in their favour.

And all those factors are relevant, and some can be easier measured, and improved when putting metrics on them. Such as how players behave with different team mates around. Gut feel and impulse is important to know what weighting you put on different factors, but if you have a hunch and you can put data on it, you can remove bias. Ultimately you cannot put gut feel on the average speed of running back for Conteh (just picking a random example here) in the last 15 minutes of the half when winning, drawing or losing. Certain things can come to light that you'd never think of. Some players are very good at conserving energy to stay on the pitch, and you need to know when to get people off, have a word, and be certain people are giving 95-100% and not 80% between 65-80 minute. When you're watching 11 players, you cannot see the average distance of a player away from the player with the ball and see if people's off the ball movement changes based on the result. How about for every player those metrics on an evening or day, or when they've played 2 games in a week or 1, or when you rest them 3 in 4 games or 2 in 4 games. You may feel some go anonymous, but you may have some surprises when the data comes in.

Hell, Arsene Wenger used to get a urine sample to see hydration levels and how people looked after themselves off the pitch. Obviously we're not at that level. I get that you hate data, and don't think it's everything, and I agree, but putting numbers on stuff really gives you a lot more information to confirm your hunches, or realised you're biasing it because of what you see in training or on a match day. Maybe learn new stuff like how even your fastest players can slack off but don't look it, because they're faster than everyone else.

You get a data scientist and plenty of data and they can throw data at the manager they never even considered or prepare metrics the manager requests.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

It's the same principle as when you sign say a 20 goal striker who when he plays for you can't hit a barn door.

Everything is different. Teammates are different, the manager is different, the environment and everything else is different, and it might even be at a different level.

Football is too subjective to take data seriously; what it takes to put a competitive team together is very complex, often intuitive and is so influenced by money and outside factors.

Yes I know data is here to stay as there is a huge industry built on the back of it and it can useful in certain areas. People say it is successful for certain clubs but most aren't, and those that are usually have a lot of other things going in their favour.

The Purveyors Data Services, of will take the kudos when your team does well, but its your fault if the team does badly as your not using the data right. Theres a thread running about Snake Oil, it should be attached to the Dat people.

[quote=120845]Still trying to decide whether this is a thread about Joe Hutchinson or Yoda TBH, so clearly the latter had to a degree achieved the result he no doubt desired.

Joe Hutchinson cannot be held accountable for Mullarkey and Andrews seemingly jogging back whilst Waterfall tries to prevent the first Walsall goal on Monday or the various examples of nobody tracking opposition runners from midfield or the numerous defensive errors this term, the accountability for that and more importantly fixing that sits with the Manager/Head Coach who actually signed the players.

Waterfall never got near the Walsall player as he was slow, but yes Mullarkey & Andrews only jogged back. DA can (hopefully) "motivate" Mullarkey & Andrews and others to step up and react quicker, but Waterfall has serious problems in that he is slow, and if we press up the field he will be passed time and again. I wouldn't be surprised if its his last match, but Rodgers doesn't fill me with any hope as his positioning is terrible. Not good.

Quoted from GrimPol

The Purveyors Data Services, of will take the kudos when your team does well, but its your fault if the team does badly as your not using the data right. Theres a thread running about Snake Oil, it should be attached to the Dat people.

Said this before on another thread, I’m a data analyst (different industry) - I show trends and information to advise my leaders who make the decisions.  It’s entirely up to them whether to heed that advice or even take different conclusions from what I’ve shown.  Data is a tool to help make informed decisions, nothing more.

The leaders take full credit based on making the decisions and carry the can if making the wrong ones (as much as any leaders take responsibility!).  The only time I’d be held accountable is if I showed something incorrect or made an unjustified leap in my recommendations.

Bashing data is daft to me, it’s literally just information, surely it’s better to have more facts when making an informed decision than less.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Still trying to decide whether this is a thread about Joe Hutchinson or Yoda TBH, so clearly the latter had to a degree achieved the result he no doubt desired.

I share the same view as some posters in that I assume Joe's role is based upon a brief from the manager to search for players that may be available and fit the brief, research targets both in terms of performance but also personality then presents his findings to PH/DA to see if they tick the box. It would be unrealistic to think he does not have some engagement with agents but to what degree I'm not sure.

If you search the interview the club we site did with Conteh when he joined you get an idea of Joe's value in that he seemed to build a relationship with Conteh (and no doubt his agent) ahead of PH getting too involved, something a manager working in isolation to recruit probably wouldn't have the time to do, but also in the case of Conteh it appeared really helped in making GTFC an attractive proposition.

In addition to the above if Joe has started to build a relationship with a target it really helps in terms of understanding how to engage the individual, the key word being "individual" as he may need a different approach for each player, possibly again something that a manager may not have time to do.

Some posters seem to believe that Joe signs player and gives them to the manager to utilise or that in the summer PH went off and signed his own players and just ignored Joe, both theories are complete nonsense and just suit the narrative of people who want to have a dig as we're not storming the league.

Joe Hutchinson cannot be held accountable for Mullarkey and Andrews seemingly jogging back whilst Waterfall tries to prevent the first Walsall goal on Monday or the various examples of nobody tracking opposition runners from midfield or the numerous defensive errors this term, the accountability for that and more importantly fixing that sits with the Manager/Head Coach who actually signed the players.

I don't know Joe are in reality what he does but I'm sure having someone in that role adds value, especially at a time (Jan window) when the manager and his coaches need to spend as much time on the training pitch as possible fixing the issues that are holding us back.

A player is rarely going to sign because somebody talks to them nicely who they'll have no interaction with once they've signed. There's loads of stories of players only signing because the manager went out of their way to get them, it shows they're wanted. But a nobody from the office isn't going to make the difference.

If the data says this player doesn't try hard to get back or doesn't put as much effort in when the going gets tough, then it is the guy that recommended him's fault.

Quoted from AncientExiledMariner

And all those factors are relevant, and some can be easier measured, and improved when putting metrics on them. Such as how players behave with different team mates around. Gut feel and impulse is important to know what weighting you put on different factors, but if you have a hunch and you can put data on it, you can remove bias. Ultimately you cannot put gut feel on the average speed of running back for Conteh (just picking a random example here) in the last 15 minutes of the half when winning, drawing or losing. Certain things can come to light that you'd never think of. Some players are very good at conserving energy to stay on the pitch, and you need to know when to get people off, have a word, and be certain people are giving 95-100% and not 80% between 65-80 minute. When you're watching 11 players, you cannot see the average distance of a player away from the player with the ball and see if people's off the ball movement changes based on the result. How about for every player those metrics on an evening or day, or when they've played 2 games in a week or 1, or when you rest them 3 in 4 games or 2 in 4 games. You may feel some go anonymous, but you may have some surprises when the data comes in.

Hell, Arsene Wenger used to get a urine sample to see hydration levels and how people looked after themselves off the pitch. Obviously we're not at that level. I get that you hate data, and don't think it's everything, and I agree, but putting numbers on stuff really gives you a lot more information to confirm your hunches, or realised you're biasing it because of what you see in training or on a match day. Maybe learn new stuff like how even your fastest players can slack off but don't look it, because they're faster than everyone else.

You get a data scientist and plenty of data and they can throw data at the manager they never even considered or prepare metrics the manager requests.

I believe every club has a data analyst. It is guaranteed that each one will come to a different conclusion given the same data set, and I can also guarantee that GTFC wont have the best data analyst with all due respect to him. A wrong conclusion can cause havoc.

All clubs are following the cult of "data led decisions" for managers and players alike, but managers are hired and discarded at an alarming rate because it just doesn't work. That is because there are so many moving parts, so many disparities, so many false conclusions drawn and so much data that doesn't transfer from circumstance to circumstance.

It's the same in signing players, led by the data. Different clubs get different results because the circumstances are so different.

Good luck to those who live by it,but it is certainly not a panacea.

Quoted from GrimPol

[quote=120845]Still trying to decide whether this is a thread about Joe Hutchinson or Yoda TBH, so clearly the latter had to a degree achieved the result he no doubt desired.

Joe Hutchinson cannot be held accountable for Mullarkey and Andrews seemingly jogging back whilst Waterfall tries to prevent the first Walsall goal on Monday or the various examples of nobody tracking opposition runners from midfield or the numerous defensive errors this term, the accountability for that and more importantly fixing that sits with the Manager/Head Coach who actually signed the players.

Waterfall never got near the Walsall player as he was slow, but yes Mullarkey & Andrews only jogged back. DA can (hopefully) "motivate" Mullarkey & Andrews and others to step up and react quicker, but Waterfall has serious problems in that he is slow, and if we press up the field he will be passed time and again. I wouldn't be surprised if its his last match, but Rodgers doesn't fill me with any hope as his positioning is terrible. Not good.

I feel too many on here are using Waterfall (and Amos at times) as a scapegoat for the poor performances. I'm pretty sure data will show we have lost more games without them on the field. It's just too convenient to say they are slow when in fact they haven't had hardly any game time to substantiate such criticism. The biggest factor regarding our poor defensive record IMHO is that for long periods in the match, our full backs are too far up the pitch and leaving us wide open to attacks down the wings. Our playing system is easily sussed out by the opposition and all you need is more players to take on the remaining two centre-backs in our defence to cause problems. In short, town are not up to playing this way of playing out competently. Too much square passing across the backline invites pressure which has been abundantly clear by the amount of soft goals against us once disposessed. Irrespective of data or pedigree most of the new signings simply have not gelled sufficiently to form a consistently competitive team. Call me old fashioned but employing a centre-half figure in front of the two centre-backs to break up attacks would do wonders to bolster our defence if we continue with the wing-back scenario.

In the Buckley days if a full back Macca went on the attack a midfielder used to drop in his empty space.
Also with all these player stats you see it in the prem making short sideways passes to get there pass percentages up no one risks a longer pass.

Quoted from Yoda

We keep hearing about a stats guy and two people involved in recruitment if so who are they.?
Did PH have a say on recruitement it was is purely the stats team.
I find it hard to think PH signed so many poor players, if it was purely the head of recruitement doesn’t he have questions to answer.

Isn’t the current problem that the players were recruited to play a certain style of football under PH, which is very different to how DA wants us to play, which naturally requires certain attributes that perhaps were not all that important in the style PH originally signed them for?

Quoted from jamesgtfc

It's easy to fire shots at the Head of Recruitment, who was also responsible for fielding the managerial applications, but Hurst had the final say on signings and I'm sure Artell will this month too.

Eastwood, Eisa, Gnahoua, Pyke are all players Hurst had worked with previously. Mullarkey is someone we went after last January when the Head of Recruitment had been here 5 minutes, and Danny Rose is a great player at this level that every manager should want in their team. Charles Vernam had been on the cards for a number of transfer windows dating back to before the Head of Recruitment was here. Vernam on a 3 year deal does seem insane though given his injury record.

Rodgers has a lot of games under his belt at a higher level, so I do think he will come good once he gets some confidence back. Conteh is a promising prospect, and both of these are potentially recommendations from the Head of Recruitment.

Looking from the outside in, I think most of our signings haven't been recommendations of the Head of Recruitment.

This!

Also if I remember correctly the only player we signed that Paul was not overly aware of, so suggested by Joe was Conteh!

Quoted from pen penfras

But a nobody from the office isn't going to make the difference.

I hope you don't manage people.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

I believe every club has a data analyst. It is guaranteed that each one will come to a different conclusion given the same data set, and I can also guarantee that GTFC wont have the best data analyst with all due respect to him. A wrong conclusion can cause havoc.

All clubs are following the cult of "data led decisions" for managers and players alike, but managers are hired and discarded at an alarming rate because it just doesn't work. That is because there are so many moving parts, so many disparities, so many false conclusions drawn and so much data that doesn't transfer from circumstance to circumstance.

It's the same in signing players, led by the data. Different clubs get different results because the circumstances are so different.

Good luck to those who live by it,but it is certainly not a panacea.

Bit in bold, I'm not sure how you can "guarantee" the competency of the data analyst. I work with data everyday, sometimes I choose to base my decisions on what it tells me, sometimes I go with a decision based upon a few decades experience and sometimes just gut feel. I would suspect a coach or manager takes a similar approach. Data doesn't give you the conclusion but it certainly helps with identifying one and signposting options.

Regardless of the sector data if collated properly via suitable resource is valuable as it's is evidence based, it helps inform decisions. Like I suspect everyone on here I'm not an expert in sports data but I'd be relatively confident the data and the analyst add value to GTFC.

Quoted from pen penfras

A player is rarely going to sign because somebody talks to them nicely who they'll have no interaction with once they've signed. There's loads of stories of players only signing because the manager went out of their way to get them, it shows they're wanted. But a nobody from the office isn't going to make the difference.

If the data says this player doesn't try hard to get back or doesn't put as much effort in when the going gets tough, then it is the guy that recommended him's fault.

Did you actually read what I posted? Like I observed last week you're still in your fixed mind set.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Bit in bold, I'm not sure how you can "guarantee" the competency of the data analyst. I work with data everyday, sometimes I choose to base my decisions on what it tells me, sometimes I go with a decision based upon a few decades experience and sometimes just gut feel. I would suspect a coach or manager takes a similar approach. Data doesn't give you the conclusion but it certainly helps with identifying one and signposting options.

Regardless of the sector data if collated properly via suitable resource is valuable as it's is evidence based, it helps inform decisions. Like I suspect everyone on here I'm not an expert in sports data but I'd be relatively confident the data and the analyst add value to GTFC.

This isn't my quote but my feelings on data in football can be summed up thus:-

"Football Data is like a bikini. It shows an awful lot but hides the most important bits - the context."

This is the most important thing for me, the context of any data which is why things often go awry because a thousand and one things contribute to the data in football. A good example is how a player can be great at one club and look like a competition winner at others.

The manager and the analyst try to give the data the context but everything in football is so subjective and depends on so many moving parts it is a very difficult job, and so so easy to come to the wrong conclusion which I suppose is why so many clubs continue to struggle despite the having the data to help them.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

This isn't my quote but my feelings on data in football can be summed up thus:-

"Football Data is like a bikini. It shows an awful lot but hides the most important bits - the context."

This is the most important thing for me, the context of any data which is why things often go awry because a thousand and one things contribute to the data in football. A good example is how a player can be great at one club and look like a competition winner at others.

The manager and the analyst try to give the data the context but everything in football is so subjective and depends on so many moving parts it is a very difficult job, and so so easy to come to the wrong conclusion which I suppose so many clubs continue to struggle despite the having the data to help them.

Agree TBH, sadly I don't think data can measure desire & hunger.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Agree TBH, sadly I don't think data can measure desire & hunger.

It can. Because when you say "desire and hunger", you don't mean a feeling, you are referring to behaviour that comes afterward such as effort and workload when you're up or down, how close they get to other players etc. How close to their max speed they are. Distance they run in different situations. You can measure it all.

I have desire and hunger to be a great footballer, but the metrics would look pretty shite for me.

You'll get elements of desire and hunger from stats but I think most of that will come from the analysts notes from reviewing game footage i.e we've all seen the Justin Whittles and Mark Lever's of the game stick their head on a ball that looked downright impossible or dangerous to win.

A Note for Stranger in the Park

[quote=120845]Still trying to decide whether this is a thread about Joe Hutchinson or Yoda TBH, so clearly the latter had to a degree achieved the result he no doubt desired.

Joe Hutchinson cannot be held accountable for Mullarkey and Andrews seemingly jogging back whilst Waterfall tries to prevent the first Walsall goal on Monday or the various examples of nobody tracking opposition runners from midfield or the numerous defensive errors this term, the accountability for that and more importantly fixing that sits with the Manager/Head Coach who actually signed the players.

Waterfall never got near the Walsall player as he was slow, but yes Mullarkey & Andrews only jogged back. DA can (hopefully) "motivate" Mullarkey & Andrews and others to step up and react quicker, but Waterfall has serious problems in that he is slow, and if we press up the field he will be passed time and again. I wouldn't be surprised if its his last match, but Rodgers doesn't fill me with any hope as his positioning is terrible. Not good.
............................................................................................................................................................
The above is what you quoted that I wrote ( see Jan 4 2024 12.24 am) when in fact the bold is what I wrote, and someone else wrote the other. I would appreciate you not mixing quotes and making out that I wrote them. My thanks in advance.

Quoted from AncientExiledMariner

It can. Because when you say "desire and hunger", you don't mean a feeling, you are referring to behaviour that comes afterward such as effort and workload when you're up or down, how close they get to other players etc. How close to their max speed they are. Distance they run in different situations. You can measure it all.

I have desire and hunger to be a great footballer, but the metrics would look pretty shite for me.

So is DA playing out from the back because the Data says A) It's the right thing to do B) The players recruited by using Data can play out from the back because the individual metrics for the players say they can cope?

Quoted from AncientExiledMariner

It can. Because when you say "desire and hunger", you don't mean a feeling, you are referring to behaviour that comes afterward such as effort and workload when you're up or down, how close they get to other players etc. How close to their max speed they are. Distance they run in different situations. You can measure it all.

I have desire and hunger to be a great footballer, but the metrics would look pretty shite for me.

But there are so many reasons for any player to be playing less than 100%.

Yes you can measure it but it is the context that matters, both good and bad. Perhaps the opposition has run him ragged. He might have run himself into the ground. He might have taken a slight knock. He might have had a better offer and is looking forward to that.

It could be his teammates whose lax play have made him run far more than he needed to, hence him being tired.

You can measure it and come to a conclusion but unless you have studied in detail every possible scenario and combination of reasons it still won't be right. Its a mugs game

Notts County have lost 10 games this season. just one less than us and are in the play-offs, were as Mansfield have drawn 10 games, one more than us are in the top three. The other two teams Barrow & Wimbledon that have drawn the same amount of games as us and are in the play-offs, fine margins.

The frankly stupid idea of playing out from the back is really our only option at the moment, no matter how bad we are at it, because in the good old days where the keeper would hoof it up the pitch at every given opportunity, there were one of two players who could actually jump higher than their ankles to get a flick on to a mobile player up front, are long gone. Yes we have the mobile frontman but the "important" players in the middle of the pitch are incapable.

Quoted from WayneBurnettsJockstrap

The frankly stupid idea of playing out from the back is really our only option at the moment, no matter how bad we are at it, because in the good old days where the keeper would hoof it up the pitch at every given opportunity, there were one of two players who could actually jump higher than their ankles to get a flick on to a mobile player up front, are long gone. Yes we have the mobile frontman but the "important" players in the middle of the pitch are incapable.

I took in Scarborough v Hereford, two teams that were in the play-off places before kick off. I've been impressed with Ryan Whiteley (on loan at Scarborough from York) every time I've seen him and his distribution for the Scarborough first was unreal. He played a similar ball a couple of times that almost sent a winger through.

The winger, Harry Green, is 22 and from Stockton-on-Tees like our own Kieran Green. Ex Middlesbrough youth player and 10 goals in 18 NLN appearances this season.

Here are the goals, I wish our keepers could distribute like this:

Tweet 1743902842950201597 will appear here...

Why are most managers trying to play the Pep way, its works for him as he has the best players in the world to play that way.

If you look back at every game played in the Premiershit and the EFL for the last five years to see how many goals have been conceded from playing out from the back, compared to five years before. I bet they is a massive % increase on the number of goals conceded.

It depends on how quickly you play out from the back as to how successful you are.

I am all for utilising all the tools available to the manager, but I would rather have Neil Warnock over a team of data analyst.

However its the way the modern game has gone, I am a dinosaur living in a modern era, trying to adapt.

Var is killing football, before to long the game will be so clincal robots will be refreeing the game.

Are we in danger of settling on an easy and convenient topic to blame, when in reality it isn’t?

Against Walsall I’m not sure any of the goals we conceded are as a result of ‘playing out from the back’. Perhaps we may have lost possession however that isn’t unique to us what does seem to be thought is our inability to defend certain situations. Like Waterfall for the first goal - his pace has nothing to do with our style or for the second us not been able to get back goal side quick enough (midfield second goal on Saturday and also at Mansfield) are bigger issues.

I very much remember Shaun Pearsons words at the fans forum where, and I’m summarising here, he said the times they went long against FGR resulted in more entries into our box than when we kept possession.

Most teams these days like to keep possession of the ball and that has worked well since Artell has come in in my opinion. We’ve created more and looked threatening further forwards.

The obvious issue we have is defenders that for large parts can’t defend. Against Walsall we conceded; a goal through waterfall getting beaten, not clearing properly then not getting back quick enough for the second ball, carved open straight through the middle, a penalty, a corner and a goal on the break. Most of those you look at defenders and don’t say “should have got rid of it” or “stop fannying around with it” I’d argue you say “just defend properly”

We can say what we like I suppose, this is the way we’re going as are a lot of teams and I’m not against it and with decentish defenders there’s no reason it can’t work. Players have to make the right decisions at the right times though and I wonder if we have enough ‘clever’ players - a point I think DA has made.

I’ve lost count of the times I’ve seen people moan about going long, or having no identity. I’ve a lot of criticisms of the team this season however one I dont have anymore is about identity and plan - you can see what they’re trying to do we are just a few short from been able to do it. This window and the summer has to be to get more players in that can do that, especially defenders. Put two decent centre halves in this team and I’d argue it improves massively overnight..

Quoted from The Yard Dog

Why are most managers trying to play the Pep way, its works for him as he has the best players in the world to play that way.

If you look back at every game played in the Premiershit and the EFL for the last five years to see how many goals have been conceded from playing out from the back, compared to five years before. I bet they is a massive % increase on the number of goals conceded.

It depends on how quickly you play out from the back as to how successful you are.

I am all for utilising all the tools available to the manager, but I would rather have Neil Warnock over a team of data analyst.

However its the way the modern game has gone, I am a dinosaur living in a modern era, trying to adapt.

Var is killing football, before to long the game will be so clincal robots will be refreeing the game.

Case in point, Newcastle second goal.

Quoted from WayneBurnettsJockstrap

The frankly stupid idea of playing out from the back is really our only option at the moment, no matter how bad we are at it, because in the good old days where the keeper would hoof it up the pitch at every given opportunity, there were one of two players who could actually jump higher than their ankles to get a flick on to a mobile player up front, are long gone. Yes we have the mobile frontman but the "important" players in the middle of the pitch are incapable.

Newcastles 2nd goal ( Saturday FA cup match) came from Sunderlands poor attempt at playing from the back. Its as if the players are "following orders" whatever the situation is and cannot make a decision to play safe and kick it into touch if need be.

Quoted from GrimPol

Newcastles 2nd goal ( Saturday FA cup match) came from Sunderlands poor attempt at playing from the back. Its as if the players are "following orders" whatever the situation is and cannot make a decision to play safe and kick it into touch if need be.

We all want to see passing football but I’m not sure I find two defenders nervously stood either side of the keeper when we get a goal kick funny or annoying.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

We all want to see passing football but I’m not sure I find two defenders nervously stood either side of the keeper when we get a goal kick funny or annoying.

Which team in League 2 is a "master" of this system? Or do we need to look at the Premier League to see it working as it should?

Quoted from HertsGTFC

We all want to see passing football but I’m not sure I find two defenders nervously stood either side of the keeper when we get a goal kick funny or annoying.

I don't recall a Buckley team doing this regularly. Back then, the ball had to leave the box admittedly, but I'm sure goal kicks were more often than not long and then we looked to play from there. I would be much more comfortable with a more no nonsense approach in our defensive third, and then look to play it about a bit more.

I have no problem with a short goal kick when it's on, but when it is almost always the chosen option, you become very vulnerable. At this level, pitches aren't carpets so the ball isn't as predictable as it is in the higher leagues.

Quoted from jamesgtfc

I don't recall a Buckley team doing this regularly. Back then, the ball had to leave the box admittedly, but I'm sure goal kicks were more often than not long and then we looked to play from there. I would be much more comfortable with a more no nonsense approach in our defensive third, and then look to play it about a bit more.

I have no problem with a short goal kick when it's on, but when it is almost always the chosen option, you become very vulnerable. At this level, pitches aren't carpets so the ball isn't as predictable as it is in the higher leagues.

Agree mate, mixing it up a bit would be interesting rather than every goal kick being like an American football play.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

We all want to see passing football but I’m not sure I find two defenders nervously stood either side of the keeper when we get a goal kick funny or annoying.

I agree with that. The bigger point for me is that if you don’t have players who are decent at:

Controlling the ball
Passing
Moving quickly into space
Anticipating
Positioning themselves correctly
Being physically and athletically competent

Then playing out from the back is likely to add to your problems. In my opinion we’re not good at any of the above; that’s why we are in a mess and why we need better players.

Quoted from chaos33

I agree with that. The bigger point for me is that if you don’t have players who are decent at:

Controlling the ball
Passing
Moving quickly into space
Anticipating
Positioning themselves correctly
Being physically and athletically competent

Then playing out from the back is likely to add to your problems. In my opinion we’re not good at any of the above; that’s why we are in a mess and why we need better players.

In fairness if you’re not good at any of those things you’ll be in trouble regardless of how you set up to play.

That’s a strong point. But fannying about with it at the back is likely to compound your problems with conceding goals.

Quoted from chaos33

I agree with that. The bigger point for me is that if you don’t have players who are decent at:

Controlling the ball
Passing
Moving quickly into space
Anticipating
Positioning themselves correctly
Being physically and athletically competent

Then playing out from the back is likely to add to your problems. In my opinion we’re not good at any of the above; that’s why we are in a mess and why we need better players.

Or at the very least be pragmatic until we’ve no chance of getting sucked into a relegation battle then work on the style bit in the pre season.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Or at the very least be pragmatic until we’ve no chance of getting sucked into a relegation battle then work on the style bit in the pre season.

Yeah I would agree.

We could always go back to the scintillating football of Paul Hurst. We weren't winning many hoofing it up the pitch, and the entertainment was next to nil. Football is supposed to be entertaining, and one of the reasons Artell was brought in was to try and achieve this. There will be bumps in the road along the way. Playing out from the back is much more entertaining than seeing the ball sailing through the air and hoping the centre forward can do something with it.

We simply must change the narrative around Blundell Park, because for season after season, the results and the football on display has been shockingly bad under several managers.

Our constant troubles are highlighted by the disgraceful stat that of the last 21 seasons in the Football League, we have finished with a negative goal difference in 19 of them. Since we returned to the league in 2016, our goal difference is -93, and if you take it back to 2004, it is -145. I think that sinks the notion that we have been anything other than sh1te for 20 years, yet some cling onto a style of play that has brought nothing but relegation dogfights.

Now I don't know about anyone else, but I am about sick to death of boring, negative, losing football under manager after manager, season after season, and Artell is trying to address that by changing the whole ethos. I hope to god he achieves it because I don't think I can take many more seasons of dross, and will start finding something more enjoyable to do on a weekend if it carries on.

I, and others, have been nothing but patient, waiting for things to change around the club, and I will give Artell time too, especially as he is trying to change things. If this doesn't work, then I think my patience will finally run out.

Quoted from ginnywings

We could always go back to the scintillating football of Paul Hurst. We weren't winning many hoofing it up the pitch, and the entertainment was next to nil. Football is supposed to be entertaining, and one of the reasons Artell was brought in was to try and achieve this. There will be bumps in the road along the way. Playing out from the back is much more entertaining than seeing the ball sailing through the air and hoping the centre forward can do something with it.

We simply must change the narrative around Blundell Park, because for season after season, the results and the football on display has been shockingly bad under several managers.

Our constant troubles are highlighted by the disgraceful stat that of the last 21 seasons in the Football League, we have finished with a negative goal difference in 19 of them. Since we returned to to the league in 2016, our goal difference is -93, and if you take it back to 2004, it is -145. I think that sinks the notion that we have been anything other sh1te for 20 years, yet some cling onto a style of play that has brought nothing but relegation dogfights.

Now I don't know about anyone else, but I am about sick to death of boring, negative, losing football under manager after manager, season after season, and Artell is trying to address that by changing the whole ethos. I hope to god he achieves it because I don't think I can take many more seasons of dross, and will start finding something more enjoyable to do on a weekend if it carries on.

I, and others, have been nothing but patient, waiting for things to change around the club, and I will give Artell time too, especially as he is trying to change things. If this doesn't work, then I think my patience will finally run out.

As always mate, a compelling post.

Quoted from ginnywings

We could always go back to the scintillating football of Paul Hurst. We weren't winning many hoofing it up the pitch, and the entertainment was next to nil. Football is supposed to be entertaining, and one of the reasons Artell was brought in was to try and achieve this. There will be bumps in the road along the way. Playing out from the back is much more entertaining than seeing the ball sailing through the air and hoping the centre forward can do something with it.

We simply must change the narrative around Blundell Park, because for season after season, the results and the football on display has been shockingly bad under several managers.

Our constant troubles are highlighted by the disgraceful stat that of the last 21 seasons in the Football League, we have finished with a negative goal difference in 19 of them. Since we returned to the league in 2016, our goal difference is -93, and if you take it back to 2004, it is -145. I think that sinks the notion that we have been anything other than sh1te for 20 years, yet some cling onto a style of play that has brought nothing but relegation dogfights.

Now I don't know about anyone else, but I am about sick to death of boring, negative, losing football under manager after manager, season after season, and Artell is trying to address that by changing the whole ethos. I hope to god he achieves it because I don't think I can take many more seasons of dross, and will start finding something more enjoyable to do on a weekend if it carries on.

I, and others, have been nothing but patient, waiting for things to change around the club, and I will give Artell time too, especially as he is trying to change things. If this doesn't work, then I think my patience will finally run out.

Totally this.

For years, the entertaining games have been a rarity, Artell spent 5 years at Crewe, he surely needs more than 5 weeks to impose his methods on someone else’s players.

Quoted from ginnywings

We could always go back to the scintillating football of Paul Hurst. We weren't winning many hoofing it up the pitch, and the entertainment was next to nil. Football is supposed to be entertaining, and one of the reasons Artell was brought in was to try and achieve this. There will be bumps in the road along the way. Playing out from the back is much more entertaining than seeing the ball sailing through the air and hoping the centre forward can do something with it.

We simply must change the narrative around Blundell Park, because for season after season, the results and the football on display has been shockingly bad under several managers.

Our constant troubles are highlighted by the disgraceful stat that of the last 21 seasons in the Football League, we have finished with a negative goal difference in 19 of them. Since we returned to the league in 2016, our goal difference is -93, and if you take it back to 2004, it is -145. I think that sinks the notion that we have been anything other than sh1te for 20 years, yet some cling onto a style of play that has brought nothing but relegation dogfights.

Now I don't know about anyone else, but I am about sick to death of boring, negative, losing football under manager after manager, season after season, and Artell is trying to address that by changing the whole ethos. I hope to god he achieves it because I don't think I can take many more seasons of dross, and will start finding something more enjoyable to do on a weekend if it carries on.

I, and others, have been nothing but patient, waiting for things to change around the club, and I will give Artell time too, especially as he is trying to change things. If this doesn't work, then I think my patience will finally run out.

I don’t disagree TBH, I’m still confident that winning more games will come under Artell.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

I don’t disagree TBH, I’m still confident that winning more games will come under Artell.

I think we’ve seen enough green shoots in Artell’s brief tenure so far to have confidence that we will, but he has also just presided over the club’s heaviest home league defeat since 1947. And this time against Walsall rather than Liverpool. It’s stating the bleeding obvious, but that’s really the kind of result he could have done without at this stage of his reign.

I’m sure it will prove to be an aberration - a once in 77 year result, but he’ll need to avoid many more major hiccups in the coming weeks and months if he wants to keep the fans on board, en masse. That’s just how football, and more specifically Blundell Park, works.

Our leaky bucket of a defence that made our Walsall whooping possible is by no means Artell’s fault, we’ve been shockingly generous at the back for a side assembled by Paul Hurst, virtually all season. That said, it’s absolutely his problem to solve, and I think most would accept some pragmatic 1-0 wins over the course of the next 5 or 6 games. Off the ball, rather than on it, has to be his priority in this brief FA Cup assisted hiatus we are currently in the middle of.