Unbelievable decision to award a penalty against Rico Lewis for his finger brushing against the face of an opponent as he headed a ball away.
What has this game come to.  Was it a clear and obvious error?  

Especially when minutes earlier Maguire pushes over an opponent which to be fair looked a penalty yet VAR was happy with that.

Quoted from 141269

Unbelievable decision to award a penalty against Rico Lewis for his finger brushing against the face of an opponent as he headed a ball away.
What has this game come to.  Was it a clear and obvious error?  

Especially when minutes earlier Maguire pushes over an opener which to be fair looked a penalty yet VAR was happy with that.

I've always detested VAR but it is just getting more and more ridiculous as time goes on. No referee in the world gives that penalty in real time. If you look at it often enough in ultra slow motion you convince yourself that the gentle brush of the face with a finger whilst jumping, has turned into a full frontal assault.

I’m all for improving the game using technology.
However I think that VAR should be suspended until officials find out how to use it.

Too many incompetent decisions taking too long at present.

It's funny because Maguire blatantly fouled one of their players in the box earlier in the match but it wasn't give. Make it up as they go along.

The ref would fit in nicely in L2 tbf.

I just wish England would speed it up a bit , too much sideways and backwards movement.

Grealish, annoys me he never cuts in and has a shot he has got the ability to do it but he passes it back instead of driving into the box and getting us a pen or even scoring a goal himself.

We need Kane on now.

Maybe VAR is not the problem, it could be the match officials and those in the VAR studio, who are also current match officials who may be incompetent.Think FIFA, EUFA or the premiership are looking at having specialist VAR people in the studio.

This ref is shocking , how do they get to this level

It would take VAR 10mins.to show that we are shite

Dreadful performance by the ref. Some inexplicable decisions.

But that doesn’t excuse a pathetic and boring display by England. Aweful.

Apart from the odd 5th round cup tie I’m not sure what purpose it serves.

I don’t get the phrase “clear & obvious error” refs are meant to give what they see, if they don’t see it then it’s not given this has been the platform for over 100 years.

One of the brilliant things about football used to be that it was the save at all levels now it’s turning into 2 different games.

It’s completely random. The Lewis decision was farcical. The point of VAR was to remove errors but now we have the worst of all worlds a game that gets delayed, the joy of goals ruined for what?

I know it's been said before, but why doesn't football follow rugby and cricket where the ref and the crowd can follow the process on the big screens with the discussion heared over the speakers. It seems to work fine for them so why can't football follow their example?

Problem because of the money involved in football compared to other sports.
A wrong decision could have major financial implications.

Plus decisions are debated four days afterwards by various ex players, referees etc...

In rugby & cricket the decision gets made, everyone accepts it & you never hear about it again.

Quoted from mimma

I know it's been said before, but why doesn't football follow rugby and cricket where the ref and the crowd can follow the process on the big screens with the discussion heared over the speakers. It seems to work fine for them so why can't football follow their example?

How is your Slovakian these days?  ;)

Quoted from 141269

Plus decisions are debated four days afterwards by various ex players, referees etc...

In rugby & cricket the decision gets made, everyone accepts it & you never hear about it again.

Try telling that to Wayne Barnes (ex-RFU ref)

Why did it take them so long to decide Grealish. was offside ?

Both Dublin and myself said within a couple of seconds he is off .

Dublin did not add illegitimate. But I did.

I also apologised to the cat for waking her up.

To me it was a close call who was worse, England or the officials.
Too much of we’re the better team we’ll just show you how good we are by passing it sidewards and backwards most of the match. Think Maguire had more touches of the ball than anyone else. Don’t get it !!

It's called keeping possession, if you think England are bad doing it, then watch Spain.

Quoted from Knut Anders Fosters Voles

Try telling that to Wayne Barnes (ex-RFU ref)

I think the difference there is that the abuse is by mindless fans (idiots) days after the game by social media trolls.  The decision at the time was accepted and there wasn't a huge media frenzy post match.

The level of protection top flight referees in football have to have is unreal, police escort to and from the ground, club officials escorting them off the pitch etc...

Just sailed through another qualifying campaign unbeaten, current world #3, probably the most exciting young player in the world in our ranks, a captain who is absolutely obilterating Bundesliga, Euro finalists last time round and clear progression being made under a manager that's harnessed a togetherness in the squad we've not seen since 1990. But yes let's focus on drawing with North Macedonia in a dead rubber.

Quoted from mimma

It's called keeping possession, if you think England are bad doing it, then watch Spain.

I understand keeping possession, but then there’s what you do with it. We’ve just played 2 teams we should be beating, one of them comfortably. We didn’t have a shot on target against Malta until the 63rd minute. So what’s the point in keeping possession if there’s no end product, play for a 0-0 draw ??

I think VAR should be used sparingly not for every sodding decision. Why not adopt the system in cricket where each team is allowed a set number of appeals, say one each half. Then we would get a maximum four var checks a game.

Quoted from RonMariner

I think VAR should be used sparingly not for every sodding decision. Why not adopt the system in cricket where each team is allowed a set number of appeals, say one each half. Then we would get a maximum four var checks a game.

Great point Ron. I would prefer it to be scrapped but that won't happen, so we have to find a sensible way forward.

Like a lot of well meaning interventions VAR has unleashed unintended consequences which is starting to ruin the game as a spectacle. The people on VAR duty seem desperate to find something to give them a purpose; refs don't seem to have the courage to apply common sense and you have to wonder about the integrity of the game when you see some decisions.

For those who say it is not VAR which is at fault it is the people who run it, that will never end will it? Decisions in football are just too subjective to have a definitive correct decision in far too many cases.

Cricket has a natural stop/start nature though. With football, when would the appeal go in? When the ball goes out of play? But then the ball might not go out of play for 5 minutes.

Quoted from Abdul19

Cricket has a natural stop/start nature though. With football, when would the appeal go in? When the ball goes out of play? But then the ball might not go out of play for 5 minutes.

Many var incidents concern whether or not a player is offside when the game is stopped as the ball is in the net. It’s true that the game continues for a while concerning penalty  checks, but that is true under the current system too, and the game is brought back if a penalty is awarded.
Not perfect I know, but less disruptive than the situation we have now.

Quoted from Abdul19

Cricket has a natural stop/start nature though. With football, when would the appeal go in? When the ball goes out of play? But then the ball might not go out of play for 5 minutes.

It could lead to all sorts of skulduggery.

The only problem with VAR. is the time it takes to make a decision not the amount of times it is used in a game.

Clear and obvious mistake is the term they say but don't use that when looking at the  offside and then come up with decision that puts a players toe or elbow offside.

Just take one look at the move and if it's not clear and obvious play on. It's not rocket science.

Thinking on this a bit more, the point of VAR was supposed to be the elimination of major mistakes such as the Lampard ‘goal’ against Germany.

Given that it’s pretty unusual to have two errors of that magnitude in a single game, the number of appeals could be limited to one per game for each team. Then we would have a maximum of 2 VAR delays per game. If teams used their appeal frivolously, it would be their loss if they then were not able to challenge a truly dodgy decision later on. It’s why in cricket teams often decide not to review decisions if they don’t think it’s likely to succeed. They don’t want to waste their limited appeals.

Quoted from RonMariner

Thinking on this a bit more, the point of VAR was supposed to be the elimination of major mistakes such as the Lampard ‘goal’ against Germany.

Given that it’s pretty unusual to have two errors of that magnitude in a single game, the number of appeals could be limited to one per game for each team. Then we would have a maximum of 2 VAR delays per game. If teams used their appeal frivolously, it would be their loss if they then were not able to challenge a truly dodgy decision later on. It’s why in cricket teams often decide not to review decisions if they don’t think it’s likely to succeed. They don’t want to waste their limited appeals.

All you needed for that was goalline technology.

We all knew it would happen. Authorities now looking at increasing the scope of VAR to include free kicks, second yellows and corners.

Once you go down this route of trying to eliminate mistakes altogether, you are on a slippery slope to destroying the game completely at the top level. Imagine if a defender never made a mistake or a striker never missed a sitter? A game played by people needs mistakes to thrive, including honest refereeing mistakes.

I hope Premier league fans (real fans like us whose clubs happen to be in the top league) will show their disgust at the ruination of the game and make some sort of stand. Yes they don't need fans money but half empty stadia would devalue the product.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

We all knew it would happen. Authorities now looking at increasing the scope of VAR to include free kicks, second yellows and corners.

Once you go down this route of trying to eliminate mistakes altogether, you are on a slippery slope to destroying the game completely at the top level. Imagine if a defender never made a mistake or a striker never missed a sitter? A game played by people needs mistakes to thrive, including honest refereeing mistakes.

I hope Premier league fans (real fans like us whose clubs happen to be in the top league) will show their disgust at the ruination of the game and make some sort of stand. Yes they don't need fans money but half empty stadia would devalue the product.

From a purist's point of view it's not good for the game but I bet the media love it - 'another controversial VAR decision' keeps Jamie Carragher and Gary Neville spouting cobblers for hours, gives the papers and websites great headlines and that's before the managers have said something stupid that gets them fined and banned from the touchline etc

If you're Sky and TNT it must be the gift that keeps on giving.

It won't be going away any time soon.

The VAR tentacles will continue to seek new ways to justify their existence. For me, it’s ruining the game. We used to have real time decisions, and accepted that some may be wrong. Now we have delayed decisions, and still they are wrong.

Once you give VAR throw ins, corners etc, the game as a spectacle will be finished. Goal line technology is the only one we need, and I just wish VAR was never brought in.

Quoted from blundellpork

The VAR tentacles will continue to seek new ways to justify their existence. For me, it’s ruining the game. We used to have real time decisions, and accepted that some may be wrong. Now we have delayed decisions, and still they are wrong.

Once you give VAR throw ins, corners etc, the game as a spectacle will be finished. Goal line technology is the only one we need, and I just wish VAR was never brought in.

It's always the law of unintended consequences isn't it?

On face value, bringing something into the game that tries to eliminate obvious errors sounds a good thing, but then all the nuances of every decision start to emerge. In a way these current discussions are the obvious progression of the train of events they have started. If a corner is wrongly given, then why should a goal be scored from it? But, 10 minutes earlier a throw in was wrongly given which of course changes the course of everything that followed and on and on it goes and nobody is happy.

These quangos won't change though. They will go further and further down the rabbit hole until the game has gone.

Pandora's Box, innit.

The issue is VAR was brought in to overturn clear and obvious errors but it's being used for everything.

But VAR is getting it wrong, or referees aren't being strong enough to stick to their original decision.

The Wolves v Fulham game last night.  The first Fulham penalty.  The Wolves player clearly gets a touch but as his foot goes to be planted he catches the toe of the Fulham player and down he goes.
It's inevitable that after kicking a ball your leg carries on its trajectory.  That's all that happened there. Or are players supposed to stab at the ball as they kick it and withdraw their leg immediately in case it contacts the opponent.

The people making the decisions can’t possibly have played football at any level . Whilst I don’t like many of the pundits , they are all ex footballers and can clearly see how utterly stupid most VAR decisions are.

Whilst anti VAR I do love the fact it effects all the football I am not really interested in and hardly occurs in my normal football diet.
The fact it enrages top flight fans, managers and players in particular I find funny as fck. One of the influences of bringing in VAR was top level players diving around and feigning injury so self inflicted for many.
However one of the biggest flaws is the 2-3 frame by frame replays the refs get shown pitchside as a review...that constant play-rewind which really doesn't show the whole context or natural movement.

I’m absolutely against this. It would be terrible for football. Stopping the game every three f***ing minutes to acquire another fallible opinion on a thrown in. No thanks. I like the drama and controversy and emotional spontaneity of football. I don’t want to stop the game 58 times over 90 minutes and hang about for some bod looking at a tv playback while everyone stands about like d1cks. I’m happy to accept that there’ll be some mistakes and marginal calls and sometimes that’ll fall your way, and sometimes not. Throw VAR in the bin.

Newcastle robbed, never a penalty, feel for the players gave their all, only to be robbed in the 96 min.

If I was the players, refused to play if VAR is in operation, until the law makers change the law back to deliberate handball and the muppets operating VAR systems.

VAR operators are ruining football, every goal being checked as well as those incorrect decisions, there's also a strong argument to say VAR is negatively impacting the viewing experience inside the stadiums. Supporters watching on television have access to multiple slow-motion replays and camera angles, meaning they can quickly reach a conclusion over whether they believe a decision to be correct.

Quoted from The Yard Dog

Newcastle robbed, never a penalty, feel for the players gave their all, only to be robbed in the 96 min.

If I was the players, refused to play if VAR is in operation, until the law makers change the law back to deliberate handball and the muppets operating VAR systems.

VAR operators are ruining football, every goal being checked as well as those incorrect decisions, there's also a strong argument to say VAR is negatively impacting the viewing experience inside the stadiums. Supporters watching on television have access to multiple slow-motion replays and camera angles, meaning they can quickly reach a conclusion over whether they believe a decision to be correct.

VAR sucks.

Has anyone considered whether the amount of additional time now being played could impact refereeing decisions?

Referees do more running and will obviously get more tired.

Tired people tend to make poorer decisions - often taking the easiest option.

The decision in the Newcastle-PSG match (96th minute, except it wasn't as the 1st half exceeded 45 minutes) was diabolical.
Yet according to the BBC "The game was being officiated by one of the world's best referees".

I'VE GOT IT!
We need to implement another system to spot "clear and obvious errors" by the VAR official.
Just a quick check after every VAR decision is made. Would only take a couple of extra minutes...  ::)

Newcastle robbed.

Meh. Can't be too bothered when one petro-state team beats another petro-state team, regardless of the rights or wrongs of a refereeing decision.

That young lad playing in central midfield looks like a prospect, however. Very calm and collected in such a high-pressure game playing against a 'big team'.

Quoted from Abdul19

Pandora's Box, innit.

Except without any hope at the end

Re Newcastle.  The referee looking at the monitor viewing a still shot of the ball glancing the arm of the defender.

No context whatsoever that it hit his chest first, then spun up to hit the arm. Short of cutting his arms off he has no chance of avoiding that.

The ref has a full stadium baying for a penalty and is under intolerable pressure and the still shot gives him the get out clause to give it.

What a bloody mess they've made of the game at that level.

How far do you go back with VAR?
You can eventually get back to the butterfly in Brazil flapping its wings. Ludicrous waste of time. It’s supposed to be a game of entertainment. But then money shows its ugly head.

Newcastle were perfectly happy with contentious VAR decisions a few weeks ago when it helped them beat Arsenal..... I think your luck evens out over a season tbh.  

Quoted from OddShapedBalls

Newcastle were perfectly happy with contentious VAR decisions a few weeks ago when it helped them beat Arsenal..... I think your luck evens out over a season tbh.  

That's why we as neutral football fans can state our opinions without fear or favour on the abomination that is VAR.

Your luck evened out with refereeing decisions so we should have left it at that.

Quoted from OddShapedBalls

Newcastle were perfectly happy with contentious VAR decisions a few weeks ago when it helped them beat Arsenal..... I think your luck evens out over a season tbh.  

Luck probably does even itself out over the season which is why VAR should never have been introduced. You can forgive a ref or linesman making an error during the action of a game but if they disrupt the game, ruin the spectacle and spontaneity of watching but they're still making errors then you have to say what's the point? Goal line technology works because it's instant, doesn't interrupt the flow of the game and is a definite yes or no. They told us VAR would only be used for clear and obvious errors but here we are with just as many, if not more errors once it's been introduced, some of which are literally being caused by it's use. Get rid of it. Lots of us said it would be shite and we've been proved absolutely spot on with that one.