Crazy world……..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67146769

I thought they were doing ok……obviously not !

Wonder if the Cowleys are lined up?

UTM

They seem to have got a bit becalmed in mid table (lower mid table) but that hardly seems a reason to fire them.

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

They seem to have got a bit becalmed in mid table (lower mid table) but that hardly seems a reason to fire them.

Probably the data showed they were actually doing much worse than the actual table.

Madness. Also really interesting that the assistant was Danny Butterfield - I’ll admit I had no idea!

they seemed to have been a bit quick with the trigger finger. Results aren't that bad. Perhaps some of our many Gimp lurkers could illuminate us

Evidently big fall out behind the scenes last Friday, followed by 1-0 home defeat and Manager critical of player who got sent off were the final three straws but understand he’s been under pressure for a while allegedly because of the quality of his coaching and I believe they are are about as entertaining and effective in front og goal as us.

Quoted from forza ivano

they seemed to have been a bit quick with the trigger finger. Results aren't that bad. Perhaps some of our many Gimp lurkers could illuminate us

Someone on the Scunny thread suggests all is not well behind the scenes.

Ed. I wrote this before the post above appeared.

Quoted from Heisenberg

Madness. Also really interesting that the assistant was Danny Butterfield - I’ll admit I had no idea!

Had a really good chat with him about it in the summer. Living down here, there’s loads of Gimps about so was getting the lowdown. He was very complimentary about our signings, especially Ross and Conteh and also said his heart was always at GTFC. Seems a decent lad.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

Probably the data showed they were actually doing much worse than the actual table.

It’s exactly that. The data showed that they’d had the fewest touches in the opposition penalty box out of all the teams. Amazingly they’d had fewer than Cheltenham who have only managed one goal.

Quoted from mariner91

It’s exactly that. The data showed that they’d had the fewest touches in the opposition penalty box out of all the teams. Amazingly they’d had fewer than Cheltenham who have only managed one goal.

Do we have any idea how we stack up on that front? Gut instinct says it can’t make great reading, but it’d be interesting if that’s not actually the case.

Rose has loads of touches in the opposition box as he wins so many flick-ons. Unfortunately, nobody around him in recent games to benefit.

Quoted from mariner91

It’s exactly that. The data showed that they’d had the fewest touches in the opposition penalty box out of all the teams. Amazingly they’d had fewer than Cheltenham who have only managed one goal.

I think, or hope you are pulling my leg but nothing would surprise me.

They will be doing away with league tables soon and you will get promoted or relegated on the strength of how many touches you have in the opposition box.

The Cowley's, who some Lincoln fans would like back, are completely stats and numbers driven, and Danny Cowley once said that football should be seen as science. They demand a minimum amount of crosses per game for instance.

Doesn't matter how many times you diss stats Lew, the use of them is widespread.

Quoted from ginnywings

The Cowley's, who some Lincoln fans would like back, are completely stats and numbers driven, and Danny Cowley once said that football should be seen as science. They demand a minimum amount of crosses per game for instance.

Doesn't matter how many times you diss stats Lew, the use of them is widespread.

Is that why they keep getting the sack?

Lots of managers ask for lots of crosses,  Hurst asks for lots of tracking back. It's just a managers preference.

Data has never ever won any team a football match.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

Is that why they keep getting the sack?

Lots of managers ask for lots of crosses,  Hurst asks for lots of tracking back. It's just a managers preference.

Data has never ever won any team a football match.

Only because he was too busy filming Star Trek.

Quoted from ginnywings

Only because he was too busy filming Star Trek.

Genius 😂

Quoted from RonMariner

Genius 😂

Yes it was a great riposte.  I should have put statistics and foxed him.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

I think, or hope you are pulling my leg but nothing would surprise me.

They will be doing away with league tables soon and you will get promoted or relegated on the strength of how many touches you have in the opposition box.

I’m actually not. A friend of mine co-hosts the Stacey West podcast and I saw some of the stats he posted yesterday. They rank 22nd for possession and expected goals, had the fewest corners and crosses in to the box in the league as well as a host of other stats where they’ve performed very poorly. All of it adds up to indicate that perhaps they’re in a slightly false league position currently and are likely to continue their descent down the league unless something changed.

On its own it’s not enough to fire someone but I believe they’ve also had a very boring and uninspiring style which has been difficult to watch (sounds familiar) and it’s obviously led them to decide that change is needed.

Surely it's better to have two crosses in a game and score from one of them.

Than put ten crosses in and not score at all.

It's a simple game and two much thought is put in by some managers.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

Yes it was a great riposte.  I should have put statistics and foxed him.

I know we have had a bit of back and forth on this subject, but as much as I recognise the extensive use of stats in the modern game, I think it is one of the reasons that football has become boring and robotic, especially in the lower leagues.

Players are now extremely fit and well drilled, but not a lot of them have much in the way of skill and flair, or any unpredictability.

Maybe they should be looking at Hurst as their next manager.

Did wonders in League One at Shrewsbury, avoiding relegation and then getting them in the play-offs.

Of course we would want compensation.

Football is data driven, and if you get it right, you see results and positive outcomes, that’s a fact.

Lincoln fans are an odd bunch; they gained so many new fans under Cowley that some simply don’t know success without them and have struggled ever since they left. Then you have those that have been there all along that saw it was time for them to go and were happy with Appleton.

There’s definitely more to this and talking to a Lincoln STH, he’s of the opinion that a fallout and what not is likely to have happened. Kennedy opey called out a player the other week (justified by all accounts) and it’s gone down like a cold cup of sick, poor precious players I guess.

It’s hard to see what their ambition is given they’ve gradually just descended into a mediocre bottom half club since their failed playoff attempt. In truth, I don’t think they’d have the cash or perhaps even desire to be a championship club but, if their data is telling them they’re on a slippery slope into League 2 you can see why they’ve pulled the trigger…

With all the recent sackings they’re also probably nursing a semi on regarding the return of Cowley and have done it to get in their first before someone no doubt tempts them back into work…

Remember’Sir’ Alan Buckley?

He was lambasted for leaving for West Brom, then lauded as a returning hero.

The time is right for a return of the brothers, who I’m sure would’ve learned from their spells at Huddersfield & Pompey. Imps have a competitive squad in a league with no real stand out teams. 3 strikers due back from injury in Walker, House & Vale (on loan from Blackburn) an exciting period awaits.

Quoted from NorfolkImp

Remember’Sir’ Alan Buckley?

He was lambasted for leaving for West Brom, then lauded as a returning hero.

The time is right for a return of the brothers, who I’m sure would’ve learned from their spells at Huddersfield & Pompey. Imps have a competitive squad in a league with no real stand out teams. 3 strikers due back from injury in Walker, House & Vale (on loan from Blackburn) an exciting period awaits.

I know they were successful for you but their style of play is so anti football, its a huge change from what you've had these last few years surely?

Quoted from mariner91

I’m actually not. A friend of mine co-hosts the Stacey West podcast and I saw some of the stats he posted yesterday. They rank 22nd for possession and expected goals, had the fewest corners and crosses in to the box in the league as well as a host of other stats where they’ve performed very poorly. All of it adds up to indicate that perhaps they’re in a slightly false league position currently and are likely to continue their descent down the league unless something changed.

On its own it’s not enough to fire someone but I believe they’ve also had a very boring and uninspiring style which has been difficult to watch (sounds familiar) and it’s obviously led them to decide that change is needed.

Outperforming based on stats then . Signs of a together unit. Isn’t that a plus.

Quoted from promotion plaice

Maybe they should be looking at Hurst as their next manager.

Did wonders in League One at Shrewsbury, avoiding relegation and then getting them in the play-offs.

Of course we would want compensation.

We or they?

I don't think it has come as a huge surprise, when MK probably had the biggest player budget in our history and we have struggled of late. A caveat to that is that we are missing nearly our entire forward line - Which has not helped, but they will be back shortly over the coming weeks.

However, with very ambitious investors I can understand why he has been sacked as they do think we should be performing better than we are, and MK's style was very conservative and was potentially having an effect on the crowds. Everything off the pitch is geared towards high end league 1/Lower end championship so in that respect he is failing, and that has cost him I think.

I think it was the right thing to do, but I wouldn't want Danny and Nicky, and I don't think we will go down that route - I personally think we may go for Nathan Jones.

Quoted from HerveJosse

Outperforming based on stats then . Signs of a together unit. Isn’t that a plus.

Lies, damn lies and statistics. They can be framed any way you choose really but Lincoln's board obviously decided it was a negative.

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

They seem to have got a bit becalmed in mid table (lower mid table) but that hardly seems a reason to fire them.

The only thing with League 1 it has 4 places down, which is a big trapdoor, compared to League 2 smaller trapdoor of 2 places. Indeed League 2 is unique where it has 4 up and only 2 down.

I wonder if in the US Soccer system, where there is no UP or DOWN, Managers/Coaches are sacked as often as in England /UK?

Quoted from ginnywings

The Cowley's, who some Lincoln fans would like back, are completely stats and numbers driven, and Danny Cowley once said that football should be seen as science. They demand a minimum amount of crosses per game for instance.

Doesn't matter how many times you diss stats Lew, the use of them is widespread.

Ah the future, as our grandkids sit around a nuclear log look-alike brazer in the Ye Olde Hurst Bar, drinking No Alcohol "Beer" as per ICI Chemical Works, they discuss Grimsby Metropolitan and Urban Community FC V Boston Vegan Socialist Combine FC match.
Did you see our Right Wing Flyer, he put in 2.735 crosses in per Quark. That's nothing our Front Person tracked back 33.8794 meters per MHz, and thats the best in the Combined NSEW Grouping ever since Stats took over. Must have been boring for our Grandparents to shout at people called Slade, Bignot and Holloway, now we push a button, it takes 3 days for a committee of Sensitivity and Specificity software to make sure nobody is upset. Mind you I can't understand why, we don't have a manager as a programme run by 21st Group Data Analysis does that, as it does all the football in the world.

Here's to the future.

Quoted from GrimPol

The only thing with League 1 it has 4 places down, which is a big trapdoor, compared to League 2 smaller trapdoor of 2 places. Indeed League 2 is unique where it has 4 up and only 2 down.

Somewhat frustrating though isn’t it that we’ve become far more adept at getting out of it the “hard way” than the statistically easier way. I swear if we end up in another relegation battle this season I’m going to blow my brains out before it has run its course.

Quoted from Hagrid

I know they were successful for you but their style of play is so anti football, its a huge change from what you've had these last few years surely?

Anti-football is very harsh, especially for lower league level … they made watching The Imps an occasion, not many have managed that over the decades. I watched Notts County attempt to play like Pep, but were trounced by Clough Jnrs’ Stags last weekend.

Kennedy literally bottled it after winning 6-3 away at Bristol Rovers last season, and quickly resorted to 5 at the back with 2 defensively minded midfielders in front of them … it’s been painful viewing ever since, I’m amazed we are still averaging 8k tbh.

Well I’m obviously surrounded by, and spend many hours drinking and golfing, with Chimps and I don’t know anyone who want the Cowleys back. I think once they had the much more positive and attractive football played under Appleton they were thankful for everything the Cowley’s achieved with them but were pleased they had moved on.

Have the Board forgiven them for the money they spent without approval? Not sure their return is likely but would please me if they continue to suffer watching crap football just like us.

Quoted from NorfolkImp

Anti-football is very harsh, especially for lower league level … they made watching The Imps an occasion, not many have managed that over the decades. I watched Notts County attempt to play like Pep, but were trounced by Clough Jnrs’ Stags last weekend.

Kennedy literally bottled it after winning 6-3 away at Bristol Rovers last season, and quickly resorted to 5 at the back with 2 defensively minded midfielders in front of them … it’s been painful viewing ever since, I’m amazed we are still averaging 8k tbh.

Painful viewing eh? Try 9 years of Hurstball 500 games and about 20 that you'd class as a decent watch especially at home. Fans these days are probably way more demanding but give them some entertainment or they will eventually move on.

Quoted from Lincoln Mariner 56

Well I’m obviously surrounded by, and spend many hours drinking and golfing, with Chimps and I don’t know anyone who want the Cowleys back. I think once they had the much more positive and attractive football played under Appleton they were thankful for everything the Cowley’s achieved with them but were pleased they had moved on.

Have the Board forgiven them for the money they spent without approval? Not sure their return is likely but would please me if they continue to suffer watching crap football just like us.

Whilst on the pitch we have not moved on too far from the Cowley's, I think off the pitch we have, with investment and infrastructure - I personally think we have outgrown them - Whilst I will always appreciate what they have done, I think we need to look at up and coming managers and continue moving forward. A day earlier we could have got Gateshead's manager, though some rumours now about Notts County manager.

Quoted from nealeardleyscrossing

Whilst on the pitch we have not moved on too far from the Cowley's, I think off the pitch we have, with investment and infrastructure - I personally think we have outgrown them - Whilst I will always appreciate what they have done, I think we need to look at up and coming managers and continue moving forward. A day earlier we could have got Gateshead's manager, though some rumours now about Notts County manager.

Think that was my point Appleton initially moved you forward in both playing style and results but Kennedy appears to have given you a great defensive set up but very little going forwards, however, as mentioned above been very unlucky with injuries to forward players this season which won’t have helped. Anyway, I need you back in a league us, as was the norm for my first forty years living here so that I can get by smug look back on when hearing about Lincoln’s woes!!!

Quoted from Poojah

Somewhat frustrating though isn’t it that we’ve become far more adept at getting out of it the “hard way” than the statistically easier way. I swear if we end up in another relegation battle this season I’m going to blow my brains out before it has run its course.

I understand and feel your pain. However, it might push you off your psychological trauma cliff edge, if we do (Trigger warning) go down and Scunny (Trigger warning) go up, we will (Trigger warning) play each other in the National, I " What the hell am I doing here" league. Brrrrrrrr
Now where did I leave my anxiety tablets?

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

Data has never ever won any team a football match.

Do you want to tell Brentford & Brighton that? 2 clubs that we consistently outperformed and who are now light years ahead of us on and off the pitch.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

Is that why they keep getting the sack?

Lots of managers ask for lots of crosses,  Hurst asks for lots of tracking back. It's just a managers preference.

Data has never ever won any team a football match.

Maybe the use of data has never actually won a football match but it could highlight why you aren't winning games. Statistics and data are indicaters, not the answer to a problem on their own but are very useful in specifically identifying problem areas.

Quoted from rancido

Maybe the use of data has never actually won a football match but it could highlight why you aren't winning games. Statistics and data are indicaters, not the answer to a problem on their own but are very useful in specifically identifying problem areas.

I can't be arsed to go through it all again but retrospective data has no impact on the next match because all the conditions of the next match are different.

Analysts can pinpoint problem areas (as can the average fan to be fair) but solving it is another thing altogether. Hurst knows our problems but 13 games in we are getting worse so therefore the statistical analysis has counted for nothing. A new more attacking manager might have this team playing better but is that data led or just football sense?

As far as I can see on the playing side we are paying money to learn what Hurst already knows but as yet can't fix.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

Do you want to tell Brentford & Brighton that? 2 clubs that we consistently outperformed and who are now light years ahead of us on and off the pitch.

They all use data yet that is 2 out of 92 .

I am all in favour of a great scouting network, whether that be contacts or from a data base which these 2 have used successfully, but the main reasons for their meteoric rise though is the standard of the managers, the coaches, and certainly in Brightons case huge investment. Data in isolation is worthless.

I think the £400million that Tony Bloom has invested in Brighton and the £100million+ that Matthew Benham has invested in Brighton are probably key data points to pick up on.

I think there's a dull obsession with pointless numbers on the game at the minute.  I use the term numbers because that's all it is, a series of numbers in some sort of order.  The correct use of that data can be used as information which in turn becomes an asset, for some clubs that's a major advantage.  

My favourite example of largely pointless data is when defensive midfielders are always at the top of the number of passes per game and/or pass completion rate.   The number of simple and easy passes they make each game, more often than not under no pressure, should mean that's the case.  They're always going to have higher stats than someone who's trying difficult passes.

But behind the scenes there's a lot of incredible benefits to real information and intelligence.  We don't get to see the bulk of that. Match of the Day isn't displaying the kind of stuff that analysts in the background get to see.  Micah Richards is not trained in data science, but clubs have people who are and can turn those numbers into an advantage over their opponents.  Or at least they can give the manager the option of having that advantage.

The use of data, stats, information (whatever you want to call it) is increasing in the game. It would be foolish to think football can ever be as simple again as 4-4-2 and getting crosses into the box, it's a long, long time since that was the case.  Even supposed football dinosaurs like John Beck were heavily driven by data.  Beck and other long ball merchants of the late 80's and early 90's recognised that the win margins at set-pieces were higher, so they tailored their sides to benefit from that.  They loaded their deck with physical players who dominated in the air, offset against their lesser ability on the deck, but knowing that risk and calculating it.

But the beauty of the game is that it's not all done on a spreadsheet.  There are far too many variables for it to ever be that simple.  Few clubs have managed to successfully adopt the Moneyball approach because football is a completely different game to baseball.  The nature of baseball is that it's in individual and defined passages of play.  How well does the player pitch, bat or field.  The reliance on other factors and members of the team is limited.  There will always be that instinct or feel for the game that both players and managers either succeed or fail in.

I don't know what Hurst's approach to the game is, he's mentioned numbers before but I don't know how invested he is in it.  Regards his feel for the game, I often think he's watched a different game to me but I think he's got a good sense for noticing when the balance of power is shifting, hence his penchant for bringing on a more defensive minded player.  However, I feel he lacks the instinct to see when the game is there to be won.  But then I'm a fan in the stands and he's a bloke who's made a career of football management.

With regards Lincoln and especially the Cowley's, if that was the case I think it would be a terrible appointment.  They did a great job there, no doubt about it.  But they offered something at the time that was ahead of the curve.  At the fifth and fourth tier, few clubs were doing what they did with the data science based approach, the use of sports science, it was all new stuff and incredibly advantageous at those levels.  By the time they went to Huddersfield and later Portsmouth, it either wasn't as advantageous at those levels or everyone else had caught up.  Now the methods they used are common practice across all four divisions, certainly at the level Lincoln are at.  Tactically I don't think they're up to it to cut it without a distinct advantage.

Nathan Jones would be a very interesting appointment.  He would eat himself if he got the chance, but I think he's a very good coach.  Don't be fooled by his record at Stoke (a club no-one has succeeded at in a long, long time - to the point that something is just fundamentally flawed there) and Southampton which was a poisoned chalice which only his ego led him to take.  I understand that one of the issues with Kennedy at Lincoln is that the board just couldn't see the progression, they couldn't see where Kennedy was trying to take them and they could perhaps tolerate blips if they had sight of the bigger picture.  Jones, if given time, would definitely fit in with that approach.

Quoted from diehardmariner

I think the £400million that Tony Bloom has invested in Brighton and the £100million+ that Matthew Benham has invested in Brighton are probably key data points to pick up on.

There’s no doubting that without Tony Bloom and his massive bags of cash, Brighton would still be kicking around in a repurposed athletics track somewhere between League Two and the Championship. However, they have a 5 year negative net spend of £134m - that is, they’ve spent £134m less on inbound transfers than they’ve made in departing player sales.

That is absolutely not the norm. Prior to their relegation last season, Leeds had accrued a £183m deficit in the preceding 5 years and Southampton £200m. £200m ffs! They were absolutely awful, and not just against us.

At the top table, Chelsea are in excess of £700m. £0.7bn - it’s an astonishingly large amount of money, and yet they still finished 6 places below Brighton last season and are below them again this season, despite taking their manager and several of their players.

Brighton have turned a profit on transfer fees, lost their manager, several key players plus almost their entire back room team, including their head of recruitment, and yet still get better. People, be it players or coaching staff, continuously leave, and they simply replace them something even better. Again, that is not the norm.

These people are mere variables. The constant is the people at the very top, Tony Bloom and Paul Barber, and the system that they have in place. Good systems, powered by unique and insightful data, interrogated and interpreted in novel ways, can provide competitive advantages. As they have for Brighton. As they once did for the Oakland A’s.

Data for data’s sake won’t add value. Executed in the right way though, of course it can have a significant part to play. The evidence is out there. I find it baffling this argument is still ongoing.

Quoted from Poojah

There’s no doubting that without Tony Bloom and his massive bags of cash, Brighton would still be kicking around in a repurposed athletics track somewhere between League Two and the Championship. However, they have a 5 year negative net spend of £134m - that is, they’ve spent £134m less on inbound transfers than they’ve made in departing player sales.

That is absolutely not the norm. Prior to their relegation last season, Leeds had accrued a £183m deficit in the preceding 5 years and Southampton £200m. £200m ffs! They were absolutely awful, and not just against us.

At the top table, Chelsea are in excess of £700m. £0.7bn - it’s an astonishingly large amount of money, and yet they still finished 6 places below Brighton last season and are below them again this season, despite taking their manager and several of their players.

Brighton have turned a profit on transfer fees, lost their manager, several key players plus almost their entire back room team, including their head of recruitment, and yet still get better. People, be it players or coaching staff, continuously leave, and they simply replace them something even better. Again, that is not the norm.

These people are mere variables. The constant is the people at the very top, Tony Bloom and Paul Barber, and the system that they have in place. Good systems, powered by unique and insightful data, interrogated and interpreted in novel ways, can provide competitive advantages. As they have for Brighton. As they once did for the Oakland A’s.

Data for data’s sake won’t add value. Executed in the right way though, of course it can have a significant part to play. The evidence is out there. I find it baffling this argument is still ongoing.

I think we are having the argument because some fans think we are going to be the next Brighton because we've employed a data analyst, or getting involved with the 21st group.

Whichever way you cut it both Brentford and Brighton have enjoyed investment which is off the scale. Hundreds of millions pounds of investment which I agree they have put to very good use in the quality of their transfers particularly in getting unknown talent and good for them.

I appreciate you have got to start somewhere but I think we should concentrate on getting our house in order rather than spending too much time on post match data.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

I think we are having the argument because some fans think we are going to be the next Brighton because we've employed a data analyst, or getting involved with the 21st group.

Whichever way you cut it both Brentford and Brighton have enjoyed investment which is off the scale. Hundreds of millions pounds of investment which I agree they have put to very good use in the quality of their transfers particularly in getting unknown talent and good for them.

I appreciate you have got to start somewhere but I think we should concentrate on getting our house in order rather than spending too much time on post match data.

Well, that’s a different argument altogether. Our recent investment in data analytics isn’t about creating the kind of competitive enjoyment that Brighton enjoy, it’s about not having the kind of competitive disadvantage that has been allowed to open up while clubs around us moved on (not the fault of the current board, I might add).

I don’t know the secrets of the proprietary system Brighton leverage; evidently no one outside of the inner circle of the club’s top brass does. But it ultimately stems from Bloom’s own predictive gambling data company, where it was able to be developed in the environs of a multi-billion pound turnover business, and accordingly, was able to benefit from appropriate investment which probably runs into the hundreds of millions over time (because it has its own direct payback model). That’s what makes it unique. That’s why others can’t copy what Brighton have done. Even Chelsea can’t pump hundreds of millions into developing proprietary technologies; that’s not their modus operandi.

All that said, the notion that having some kind of data analytics capability should be better than having none, seems reasonable. The logic goes that coming into this summer, we had a more settled squad, a significantly bigger budget, AND new and improved ways in which to identify targets and make better recruitment and strategic decisions; the cumulative effect of these advantages, over last season if not the competition, should be tangible improvements in the playing side.

Based only on the evidence we have seen so far, that litmus test has been failed. We are not tangibly better than last season. That is clear. That leads me to just three possible conclusions:

1. We simply haven’t used the data platform
2. The platform, or the staff using it, aren’t very good
3. It’s all working perfectly, we just haven’t seen the fruits of its labour yet

Personally, scenario 3 feels very unlikely at this juncture, however I’ve been very wrong before and I’ll be very wrong again. But whether we’re using it or not, our performances and results so far this season suggest multiple points of failure. As such, it’s rather difficult to pinpoint precisely where things are going wrong and to what extent.

It’s a little bit early to jump to conclusions on anything, for me.

There's good and valid points from both Poojah and Lew here.

There is absolutely a case of the superb use of data when you look at Brighton, but it goes deeper than just data.  It's an overarching ethos that goes well beyond that of using data more effectively.  Bloom himself has made his money by a) making intelligent and information led decisions but also b) holding his nerve and striking when it's right rather than when everyone else (read that as the market or the fans) think it's right to do so.  I know it's a bit cliche but when we went there in March the whole club just felt 'right'.  You can see why people would buy into it. There's a reason people will go there in the first place to give their skills, also why people are able to further develop their skills whilst at the club.

That they continue to buy and sell at a profit, manage to develop on and off the field staff continuously and still flourish is fantastic.  I've long found myself not enjoying the Premier League.  Brighton are the exception in that, they're a joy to watch.  

But for all this, it doesn't happen without that mass investment first.  Yes. they've used their wealth far better than Chelsea (the complete other extreme of how to not run a football club) but my point largely was that the Bloom money has given them the platform to let that approach and ethos flourish.  As with Brentford.  Which is the point that I think Lew's making.  There needs to be a solid base for these advantages to flourish and, arguably more importantly, something to get them going in the first place (investment).

When anyone talks about continuous improvement in sport it's often David Brailsford and Team Sky/GB that gets rolled out as an example.  Without question, so many 1% improvements were sought in every single area.  Individually, nothing at all.  Collectively, huge inroads.  None of it happens without the huge investment though (I'll leave it to someone else to make further suggestions, especially regards Team Sky).  There's having that data that's insightful and then having the ability to do something with it.  I don't think we've got the investment, infrastructure or reach to make significant inroads with data alone.  Again, not saying that means we shouldn't be using it. We absolutely should.

I also agree with Lew that I think perhaps expectations have become heightened because we've employed someone in this capacity.  All this has done to my eyes is brought us in line with everyone else. Once more, it doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do or a step in the right direction.   I've said before how I used to cringe in the Conference when part-time teams would rock up with a bigger backroom set-up than us, players all wearing GPS Vests, staff with iPad's in the managers ear with insight all game.  We had Dave Moore with a bucket and sponge.   I'm delighted we're going down the right path, at long last.

But I do think for clubs of our size, now that everyone is on a similarish playing field when it comes to this type of thing, the advantages are slimmer and slimmer.  Not too dissimilar to the Peterborough model from a few years ago, finding that talent in non-league who you can sign for £50k and sell for £2million a couple of years later.  Fantastic at the time, before long everyone employed a non-league scout and that particular advantage dried up.  It also dragged the market value up too, which is why you've got Conference clubs putting £1million price tags on players.

There will be another niche advantage that emerges, there always is.  Whilst things are feeling a bit meh at the minute around Town, I'm confident that with the people the club have brought on board (namely the arrangement with Twenty First Group) we're in a great position to benefit from whatever those new advantages are.  We might not be the ones who pioneer them, we don't need to be.  We're not competing at that end of the stick, but we certainly can get ahead of the general curve of everyone else.

Brentford - south west London - very attractive location for investment
Brighton - one of most vibrant cities in UK - very attractive location for investment
Grimsby.... hmmm....

Two excellent posts there, and the point I am indeed making is that you need incredible investment to be able to approach things like Brentford and Brighton,  which they did only once they stabilised and got the best managers and players they could afford when they were in the lower divisions.

Yes it's nice we have caught up and are embracing modern methods including data analysis,  but everybody has it and any advantage is absolutely miniscule,  if that. Even without going into the minutiae of any further data, we are unable to solve any of the problems the naked eye can tell you which obviously the manager and coaching staff must know, with or without data analysis.

On the playing side I reckon data analysis is next to useless, on the player recruitment side it could have some value but only then if you have a manager and coaches to make the most of it. Like so much in football it is a lottery which is actually what makes it so good.

You can find good players without data.  Just takes a lot of leg work for starters.

Colby Bishop is the top scorer for Portsmouth last season and this season.  They are top of Div 1 and probably heading for the Championship.  At age 26, he has scored 28 goals in 58 appearances.  A very good return.

They bought him from Accrington in 2022 after he scored 32 goals in 109 games for them.

Between 2019 and 2022 he scored 28 goals in 49 games for Leamington.

However, in 2017 he played a few games for Boston United.  No one spotted his talent there.  Should he have been on Town’s radar?  Was his undoubted potential for scoring a lot of goals evident there?

(He had previously been released by Notts County at aged 17.  He is local (ish) having been born in Nottingham).

Annoying that he was at Boston and then went onto much better things at other clubs.  A proven goalscorer over the seasons.  A career record of 110 goals in 291 games. At age 26.  

The thing with Bishop is that his record was largely unremarkable until he got to Portsmouth.

His overall record was massively weighted by spells in the Conference North with Worcester and Leamington, either side of a nothing spell at Boston.

At Accrington in League One, he was ok.  Just ok.  1 in 4.  Only at Portsmouth as a professional outfit has he gone onto hit 1 in 2.  

You can argue that Portsmouth might have used data to suggest that if given better service, or better facilities, he would produce the goods.  Or you can argue that their scout just identified him as a good player and would flourish.

Truth is, we'll probably never know.  

Quoted from Poojah

Well, that’s a different argument altogether. Our recent investment in data analytics isn’t about creating the kind of competitive enjoyment that Brighton enjoy, it’s about not having the kind of competitive disadvantage that has been allowed to open up while clubs around us moved on (not the fault of the current board, I might add).

I don’t know the secrets of the proprietary system Brighton leverage; evidently no one outside of the inner circle of the club’s top brass does. But it ultimately stems from Bloom’s own predictive gambling data company, where it was able to be developed in the environs of a multi-billion pound turnover business, and accordingly, was able to benefit from appropriate investment which probably runs into the hundreds of millions over time (because it has its own direct payback model). That’s what makes it unique. That’s why others can’t copy what Brighton have done. Even Chelsea can’t pump hundreds of millions into developing proprietary technologies; that’s not their modus operandi.

All that said, the notion that having some kind of data analytics capability should be better than having none, seems reasonable. The logic goes that coming into this summer, we had a more settled squad, a significantly bigger budget, AND new and improved ways in which to identify targets and make better recruitment and strategic decisions; the cumulative effect of these advantages, over last season if not the competition, should be tangible improvements in the playing side.

Based only on the evidence we have seen so far, that litmus test has been failed. We are not tangibly better than last season. That is clear. That leads me to just three possible conclusions:

1. We simply haven’t used the data platform
2. The platform, or the staff using it, aren’t very good
3. It’s all working perfectly, we just haven’t seen the fruits of its labour yet

Personally, scenario 3 feels very unlikely at this juncture, however I’ve been very wrong before and I’ll be very wrong again. But whether we’re using it or not, our performances and results so far this season suggest multiple points of failure. As such, it’s rather difficult to pinpoint precisely where things are going wrong and to what extent.

It’s a little bit early to jump to conclusions on anything, for me.

I think there is an option 4 which is that the data side is working but the manager and/or coaching staff are unable or unwilling to take advantage of it.

Ultimately, no matter how good the data side is, they don't take the footballing decisions.

I am not suggesting that this is what is happening, just that it is a possibility that didn't seem to be included in your list.

Quoted from TownSNAFU5

You can find good players without data.  Just takes a lot of leg work for starters.

Colby Bishop is the top scorer for Portsmouth last season and this season.  They are top of Div 1 and probably heading for the Championship.  At age 26, he has scored 28 goals in 58 appearances.  A very good return.

They bought him from Accrington in 2022 after he scored 32 goals in 109 games for them.

Between 2019 and 2022 he scored 28 goals in 49 games for Leamington.

However, in 2017 he played a few games for Boston United.  No one spotted his talent there.  Should he have been on Town’s radar?  Was his undoubted potential for scoring a lot of goals evident there?

(He had previously been released by Notts County at aged 17.  He is local (ish) having been born in Nottingham).

Annoying that he was at Boston and then went onto much better things at other clubs.  A proven goalscorer over the seasons.  A career record of 110 goals in 291 games. At age 26.  

Boston fans I know said that he was absolutely hopeless for them!

Amazing what a change of Manager can do (albeit interim) even if you have 4 first choice forward players missing (House, Walker, Mandriou & Hackett)

22 (TWENTY TWO) shots at goal with 9 (NINE) on target, culminating in a quite scintillating 3-1 over ex-boss Appleton’s Charlton who were unbeaten to this point.

It looked like the players were playing with the shackles off and more entertaining than anything under Mark Kennedy.  ;)

Quoted from NorfolkImp

Amazing what a change of Manager can do (albeit interim) even if you have 4 first choice forward players missing (House, Walker, Mandriou & Hackett)

22 (TWENTY TWO) shots at goal with 9 (NINE) on target, culminating in a quite scintillating 3-1 over ex-boss Appleton’s Charlton who were unbeaten to this point.

It looked like the players were playing with the shackles off and more entertaining than anything under Mark Kennedy.  ;)

We need a bit of that, I tell ya! Things are getting toxic here, we’re all shell-shocked at our slump. Depressing times.

Quoted from NorfolkImp

Amazing what a change of Manager can do (albeit interim) even if you have 4 first choice forward players missing (House, Walker, Mandriou & Hackett)

22 (TWENTY TWO) shots at goal with 9 (NINE) on target, culminating in a quite scintillating 3-1 over ex-boss Appleton’s Charlton who were unbeaten to this point.

It looked like the players were playing with the shackles off and more entertaining than anything under Mark Kennedy.  ;)

This is the context needed to all those GTFC fans asking "who do we replace Hurst with" in defence of not sacking him!..
Sometimes its just a complete change of attitude that makes the difference, not necessarily a tactical masterclass, just letting the players express themselves without fear of retribution.

It has definitely been a complete contrast since Kennedy left, a win away at Fleetwood and then battering an in-form Charlton without your 4 staring forwards is not something I thought would happen. I would be surprised if we stayed with the interim manager but it has put us in a position we should be really with the team we have.

Speaking with someone who watches Grimsby a lot due to his role in Football (Non league scout) - He thinks your midfield is your strongest area by far. I had a chat with him Sunday at my sons football match and he said your back 4 is poor, and lacks pace through the centre - He also suggested that nothing sticks up front - I have no idea if this is true but he has watched you a few times this season.

Quoted from nealeardleyscrossing

It has definitely been a complete contrast since Kennedy left, a win away at Fleetwood and then battering an in-form Charlton without your 4 staring forwards is not something I thought would happen. I would be surprised if we stayed with the interim manager but it has put us in a position we should be really with the team we have.

Speaking with someone who watches Grimsby a lot due to his role in Football (Non league scout) - He thinks your midfield is your strongest area by far. I had a chat with him Sunday at my sons football match and he said your back 4 is poor, and lacks pace through the centre - He also suggested that nothing sticks up front - I have no idea if this is true but he has watched you a few times this season.

Pretty true, We're excrement at the back

Quoted from Hagrid

Pretty true, We're excrement at the back

I find this totally perplexing. Think of all of the solid defensive units we’ve had under Hurst even in the bleak years, the names of players goes on and on and on:

Pearson
Miller
Pond
Thomas
Gowling
Nsiala
Magnay
Townsend
Tait
Collins

Plenty of other honourable mentions too. The above group more or less overlapped over a period of 4 or 5 seasons, and generally speaking were as solid as a rock. Even last season we weren’t horrible.

How did a manager with such solid defensive credentials get things this wrong? I find it hard to understand.