Just an aside.

How full was BP looking (home end) last night considering they said it was likely to have been a sell out?

How many empty seats could be seen?

I know on here several STH said they didnt go, and didnt release their tickets so there obviously would be some seats showing as empty

Quite a few empties in the main stand towards the away end

At least a couple of hundred empty in the pontoon.

lots empty back of the main

Quoted from Hagrid

lots empty back of the main

They were all sold out in the Main on the ticket portal three hours before kick off

On the stream there looked to be lots of empty seats in the main stand

Loads of people will have sacked it off having looked out the window.

Only the odd few seats empty in the Upper, Pontoon end.

I was rather geeky yesterday and did a little counting....

Based on there seems to be disagreements on the actual capacity of the various stands I went and did a little Maths using venue toolbox for seats and figured out what we open up for sale. Anyone equally as nerdy please feel free to check my work as it could be very error prone!

Upper Smiths (Blocks A, B, C, E) = 1800 - Block D greyed out.
Lower Smiths (Blocks D & B) = 413 - Given there's no posts or restricted, I trust the OS 826 stated capacity
Pontoon (Blocks A-F) = 1807
Main Stand (Blocks A-H) = 2422
Osmond (Blocks A & B) = 550

Total = 7405. This is less block D of the Upper which will obviously add some extra.

Tickets available as of 1800 yesterday when I was looking = 15 in Osmond, 10 in the main (7 of which were restricted) and 1 in the Pontoon. So a total of 26.

Obviously it won't always transpire that that's how many people are in the ground, but if that isn't considered sell out then I don't know what is. How long that continues is any persons guess, but it's an interesting thought as to what determines to 1878 when BP is no longer big enough.

In theory, if we have the actual support to a degree of only 26 saleable seats on a Tuesday night against Carlisle, does that not demonstrate that the audience is out there to justify greater investment in the improvement/expansion of BP or a new stadium?

As many have mentioned before, it's a great position to be in if not throwing certain problems we need to learn and adapt to having not really been in this position before.

I think the big issue there Chris is that the number of seats sold isn't, at the minute, represented by the number of bums on seats. To be honest it never completely will be either.

There's hundreds of season ticket holders who won't get to every game, especially midweek games.  But at the minute we don't have a system that's either good enough nor enough of an incentive to get the majority of people to put those seats back on sale.

I'm gonna guesstimate here a bit but I reckon there was probably a good 400-500 seats last night that were never going to be occupied, sold to a season ticket holder but never put back into the sale system.  That needs addressing.  It follows on from another thread that you've got empty seats with decent views yet people are only left with restricted seats to purchase.  

I'm of the firm belief and in full agreement with you that we're in need of development and expansion of our capacity.  But the real evidence of it when we've consistently got a lack of empty seats at games. Otherwise it's a bit of a false economy.  I know the argument is that a sold seat is money in the coffers, but by ignoring the fall-off rate we're limited our potential to grow beyond this 8,000/9,000 ceiling.

Half a dozen empty in a row next to me in the middle of the Upper and quite a few empty dotted around up there.

Quoted from diehardmariner

I think the big issue there Chris is that the number of seats sold isn't, at the minute, represented by the number of bums on seats. To be honest it never completely will be either.

There's hundreds of season ticket holders who won't get to every game, especially midweek games.  But at the minute we don't have a system that's either good enough nor enough of an incentive to get the majority of people to put those seats back on sale.

I'm gonna guesstimate here a bit but I reckon there was probably a good 400-500 seats last night that were never going to be occupied, sold to a season ticket holder but never put back into the sale system.  That needs addressing.  It follows on from another thread that you've got empty seats with decent views yet people are only left with restricted seats to purchase.  

I'm of the firm belief and in full agreement with you that we're in need of development and expansion of our capacity.  But the real evidence of it when we've consistently got a lack of empty seats at games. Otherwise it's a bit of a false economy.  I know the argument is that a sold seat is money in the coffers, but by ignoring the fall-off rate we're limited our potential to grow beyond this 8,000/9,000 ceiling.

Absolutely, there will always be STH who can't make games and people who buy tickets only for things to change last minute and I'm sure everyone would accept that as a fact whether we were in BP or a brand new 50,000 shiny stadium.

But for me it's not necessarily about money in the coffers, it's the fact that people have bought the tickets. Whether they turn up is irrelevant, all bar 26 seats were purchased, demonstrating that we have an audience of people seemingly wanting to come and support GTFC. I wasn't one of them last night but ordinarily I would have been and with others possibly on holiday there's potential that - with better weather included - the demand could outstrip the supply.

The acid test for me will come in the winter months. Will we still see the same need to open the Osmond or will gates taper off as the weather deteriorates? Hence the wonder whether 1878 will be looking at a full season of data before making decisions on what to do, or will they look at the fact we're effectively selling out (by virtue of no tickets available - not how many actually turn up) and judging that unlike years gone by the support for the Club is sufficient enough to take a step forward in future planning ground improvements (large scale - not minor repairs like replacing broken seats) or even ground moves.

Much as there are seems to be some little issues with tickets and how/when they become available, so long as we learn quickly then it's a great problem to have. Getting those things ironed out making it a smoother process will aid in keeping people coming.

Quoted from diehardmariner

I think the big issue there Chris is that the number of seats sold isn't, at the minute, represented by the number of bums on seats. To be honest it never completely will be either.

There's hundreds of season ticket holders who won't get to every game, especially midweek games.  But at the minute we don't have a system that's either good enough nor enough of an incentive to get the majority of people to put those seats back on sale.

I'm gonna guesstimate here a bit but I reckon there was probably a good 400-500 seats last night that were never going to be occupied, sold to a season ticket holder but never put back into the sale system.  That needs addressing.  It follows on from another thread that you've got empty seats with decent views yet people are only left with restricted seats to purchase.  

I'm of the firm belief and in full agreement with you that we're in need of development and expansion of our capacity.  But the real evidence of it when we've consistently got a lack of empty seats at games. Otherwise it's a bit of a false economy.  I know the argument is that a sold seat is money in the coffers, but by ignoring the fall-off rate we're limited our potential to grow beyond this 8,000/9,000 ceiling.

A sell out is when there are no tickets left for anyone to buy. That is where we are now . Irrelevant whether season ticket holders turn up or not . If there are no tickets left for it chase and you can’t get one it’s irrelevant to you that there are some empty seats in the ground.

It’d be nice to get numbers on any resales just for transparency also, but going back to something mentioned earlier in thread - the powers that be do need to look at the 1878 membership issue, ie paying money but then getting left with seats with limited views, whilst others can purchase later get better option. Surely the point of a membership is to be considered favourably..particularly as those whom are members presumably have a lot of outgoings due to location? I’d imagine most travel to watch home games, never mind away. Maybe it’s something the club could look at and revisit..?

Of course it's relevant.

By deeming it irrelevant the club are closing shop on anything other than the 1000 or so seats in the home end that don't have a reserved sticker on them.

Even a 10% no-show rate equates to over 500 tickets, with a resale value as low as £10 that's a potential additional income stream of £5k, not to mention any additional purchases.

How many times do people find that they can't get a ticket (despite seats sitting empty during the game) before they give up trying and find something else to do with their time/money?

Quoted from diehardmariner

Of course it's relevant.

By deeming it irrelevant the club are closing shop on anything other than the 1000 or so seats in the home end that don't have a reserved sticker on them.

Even a 10% no-show rate equates to over 500 tickets, with a resale value as low as £10 that's a potential additional income stream of £5k, not to mention any additional purchases.

How many times do people find that they can't get a ticket (despite seats sitting empty during the game) before they give up trying and find something else to do with their time/money?

The answer is for the club to provide more seats not selling the same ones twice. You will never get more then a small percentage of the non attendees to release them for resale when there is no direct incentive to do so.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Of course it's relevant.

By deeming it irrelevant the club are closing shop on anything other than the 1000 or so seats in the home end that don't have a reserved sticker on them.

Even a 10% no-show rate equates to over 500 tickets, with a resale value as low as £10 that's a potential additional income stream of £5k, not to mention any additional purchases.

How many times do people find that they can't get a ticket (despite seats sitting empty during the game) before they give up trying and find something else to do with their time/money?

So you're looking at it from the perspective that determination of a sell-out is that every seat has a bum on it?

It has a degree of logic to it but to fulfil that criterion would be nigh on impossible!! If a STH only figures they can't attend a game in the morning, does that STH need to declare it, get it up for re-sale and then be sold to factor into a positive data count?

If 100 STH hand back their seats, but only as singles dotted around the Upper (for example), how many people will take them up as singles if you're looking at either a family, group of friends or couple wanting to attend. We've seen that seats do sell as singles, but what we can't quantify in this scenario is how many people have not bought tickets because they can't get a group of 2/3/4 together? We're proving we can sell tickets with what happens to be available without any known data on how many have not purchased owing to limitations of availability. It could be minimal, it could be quite considerable.

The attendance and number of tickets sold gives us the no-show data but the definition of sell out has to come from the availability of tickets surely...?

This isn’t rocket science and it needs sorting asap - other clubs have schemes up and running including Lincoln. We need it more than other clubs though - that is because a significant number of seats at BP are simply not fit for purpose. This is the No. 1 priority for Trust to raise with GTFC.

Just out of curiosity ....if the away end was full .....and all home tickets where sold ......then 2000 season ticket holders couldn't make it and all made their seats available for resale ......and everyone sold .......would the club declare a 11k attendance for a 9k capacity crowd stadium ..........?

Adding additional capacity is required. For me, it's not about todays income, it's about 5, 10, 20 years time. My availability is limited and if I can't take my kids on the rare occasions I can go, who can blame them if they don't support Town in 10 years time?

The kids can't go with grandparents as there isn't a single season ticket available near them. It's a great problem for the club to have but they also need to think about keeping those interested who can't go as often as others.

Quoted from Brazilnut

Just out of curiosity ....if the away end was full .....and all home tickets where sold ......then 2000 season ticket holders couldn't make it and all made their seats available for resale ......and everyone sold .......would the club declare a 11k attendance for a 9k capacity crowd stadium ..........?

No.

The match attendance is how many go through the turnstiles on the day, not how many tickets are sold.

We have had several "sell outs" last season and this, yet we haven't hit an 8000 on the day attendance yet. 7900 against Stockport being the peak last season.

Quoted from gtfc_chris

So you're looking at it from the perspective that determination of a sell-out is that every seat has a bum on it?

It has a degree of logic to it but to fulfil that criterion would be nigh on impossible!! If a STH only figures they can't attend a game in the morning, does that STH need to declare it, get it up for re-sale and then be sold to factor into a positive data count?

If 100 STH hand back their seats, but only as singles dotted around the Upper (for example), how many people will take them up as singles if you're looking at either a family, group of friends or couple wanting to attend. We've seen that seats do sell as singles, but what we can't quantify in this scenario is how many people have not bought tickets because they can't get a group of 2/3/4 together? We're proving we can sell tickets with what happens to be available without any known data on how many have not purchased owing to limitations of availability. It could be minimal, it could be quite considerable.

The attendance and number of tickets sold gives us the no-show data but the definition of sell out has to come from the availability of tickets surely...?

I'm in complete agreement.  I'm not overly interested, truth be told, in if we sell-out or not (by which ever definition gets used for that).  I just want us to be maximising every single avenue for increased revenue and fans getting to watch the club.

You'll get very little argument from me about increasing capacity, I'm all for it.  But for that to happen there needs to be strong justification for it.  

In theory, this isn't one I'm subscribing to either, there's let's say there's an average of 400 seats that are unoccupied every game because ST holders can't attend.  We need to make sure that we're not building a temp stand in the corner because there's 300 people each game who are met with the Sold Out sign at the ticket office doors.  The easier and cheaper solution is to make sure those 300 can slot into the 400 seats that would otherwise be unoccupied.

Once we get to that point where we don't have empty seats on a matchday, or a very small number, over a sustained period then any argument against expansion is null and void.

I'm of the opinion that we should look to expand regardless.  The options at BP mean we're hemmed in.  There's little room for people to flex with where they sit, seats that are available are generally of poor quality, there's little option to sit in groups...For me it would be better to have a 10,000 capacity with 8,500 getting a decent view and able to sit with their mates than 8,500 hemmed in with some in crap seats and miles from their mates/families.

Quoted from HerveJosse

The answer is for the club to provide more seats not selling the same ones twice. You will never get more then a small percentage of the non attendees to release them for resale when there is no direct incentive to do so.

I'm not disagreeing with providing more seats. But we haven't got them (yet).

So surely the push should be on a system that looks to resell the tickets of non-attending ST holders and provides an incentive to do so?

Quoted from diehardmariner

I'm not disagreeing with providing more seats. But we haven't got them (yet).

So surely the push should be on a system that looks to resell the tickets of non-attending ST holders and provides an incentive to do so?

Agreed.

An amount of money (£5 say?) off next years season ticket for each time you release your seat.

Quoted from diehardmariner

I'm not disagreeing with providing more seats. But we haven't got them (yet).

So surely the push should be on a system that looks to resell the tickets of non-attending ST holders and provides an incentive to do so?

I suspect the apparent large number of season ticket holders maybe 500 a game not attending the first two games is simply because it’s August that’s less then 10 percent of season ticket holders and surely 10 percent are away on holiday at any point in time in August . Yes have a resale programme and publicise it but it’s not an answer to the shortage of capacity we now face. We have barely got started yet in reestablishing ourselves in League 2 and it’s going to be a sell out for every match  so if our ambitious is to go higher then how can the need for greater capacity not be recognised as the No 1 issue.

Quoted from HerveJosse

The answer is for the club to provide more seats not selling the same ones twice. You will never get more then a small percentage of the non attendees to release them for resale when there is no direct incentive to do so.

The incentive to do so is being a TRUE supporter of the club. Helping others, by offering a seat which otherwise would not be available so the team could be urged on in the match with extra voices. Some sort of credit/ rebate to the STH but the incentive is helping the club prosper both financially and with more vocal support.

I decide a few days before a game lets go to x match. No decent pair of seats available, instead arrange something else for some point on the Saturday. A season ticket holder deciding on Friday night he can't make it and putting ticket up for resale isn't a lot of use in my case.
I really believe we need to increase capacity quickly, if this is a succesful season then the club wont have been able to get even more new fans in for the future. Almost a Catch 22 need supporters in to show need for increased capacity but cant get more supporters to show it is needed as any non restrictedt view is already sold.

Quoted from Brazilnut

Just out of curiosity ....if the away end was full .....and all home tickets where sold ......then 2000 season ticket holders couldn't make it and all made their seats available for resale ......and everyone sold .......would the club declare a 11k attendance for a 9k capacity crowd stadium ..........?

Pretty sure the attendance announced is people actually through the turnstiles.

Is obsessing over attendance our new thing?

The resale thing makes sense but it’s still very much in its infancy and to be honest, if I were unable to attend I wouldn’t bottom myself with it, I know enough people I could offer it to.

I know the big clubs have cut off points for when you have to decide which makes sense but I guess, for me, if there’s a possibility that I could attend but wouldn’t know until say Friday or Saturday night, again, I would t allow it to be resold.

Perhaps the answer is additional seats and I agree that it’s a great problem to have.

We must’ve had an attendance thread after every game and almost every other day or so it seems.

Quoted from ginnywings

Agreed.

An amount of money (£5 say?) off next years season ticket for each time you release your seat.

I think something like that works, providing it's sold of course.  Then maybe a cap on the number of times you can do it.  Even free pre-season tickets the following summer, programmes, drinks vouchers....anything.  But there has to be an incentive because otherwise people won't do it.  

We can all preach how much we want the club to progress and draw in new blood.  But the likelihood of us going out of our way (regardless of how small the inconvenience is) to put our own ticket up for sale, without us getting the benefit of it, is quite slim.  For the vast majority anyway.

Quoted from HerveJosse

I suspect the apparent large number of season ticket holders maybe 500 a game not attending the first two games is simply because it’s August that’s less then 10 percent of season ticket holders and surely 10 percent are away on holiday at any point in time in August . Yes have a resale programme and publicise it but it’s not an answer to the shortage of capacity we now face. We have barely got started yet in reestablishing ourselves in League 2 and it’s going to be a sell out for every match  so if our ambitious is to go higher then how can the need for greater capacity not be recognised as the No 1 issue.

I saw something either on here or Twitter a few weeks ago that the no-show is usually 10% throughout the year.  Happy to be corrected on that.  Yeah, definitely an attrition rate as it's summer.  But there's always going to be something throughout the season that will impact the conversion of ST's sold to bums on seats.  I dare say even more so this year with the number of people who bought them having got caught up in the sales hype and/or don't want to be missing out on priority access to away and cup games.

It's not the answer to the shortage of capacity, far from it.  The answer will always be for your capacity to outstrip your demand and then have some headspace to play with.  But we don't have that luxury and it doesn't look like we're going to have it anytime soon.  An effective resale scheme is a short-term mitigation and a way of operating the best within your current means.  

I would like to know the costings for some temp stands in the corners and the thought process behind it, or should I say not happening.  I hope it's something that's picked up at some point when Stockwood speaks to Humberside/DN35 Podcast etc.  Everything I've heard or read before seems to hint towards 1878 aren't convinced there's a need for expansion at the minute and that they can operate within the current capacity.  I disagree with this and think we're hemming ourselves in, especially with the number of quite frankly shocking seats that are for sale.  But I'd love to hear their stance on it, considering they're far better qualified to speak on it than I am.

Quoted from aldi_01

Is obsessing over attendance our new thing?

We must’ve had an attendance thread after every game and almost every other day or so it seems.

Sign of growth of the fan base?  I wouldn't say it's an obsession, I would say there's a marked interest in how far this wave can be ridden and there's a genuine concern amongst a fair few that we're running the risk of closing the door on it the growing of the club.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Sign of growth of the fan base?  I wouldn't say it's an obsession, I would say there's a marked interest in how far this wave can be ridden and there's a genuine concern amongst a fair few that we're running the risk of closing the door on it the growing of the club.

Don’t disagree but much like the rumours thread, could we not just have one thread given the content is the same every time?

Probably easier to just not click on the thread in the first place.  ;)

Perhaps the answer is for the owners to go and sit in those seats and watch a few games and then ask themselves do they really feel like those seats are value for money and do they really think that those impinged views do not act as a deterrent to attendance.