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Any racism should be dealt with harshly but why do we need special laws for football fans ?

If someone gave Lenny Henry racist abuse online would he be banned from all comedy gigs and have to report to a police station when there was a gig in Town ?

If someone gave Tiger Woods abuse would they be banned from all golf tournaments ect ect ?

I honestly believe that all people from every section of society should be treated the same but it’s always football fans that get the special treatment

Quoted from grimps

Any racism should be dealt with harshly but why do we need special laws for football fans ?

If someone gave Lenny Henry racist abuse online would he be banned from all comedy gigs and have to report to a police station when there was a gig in Town ?

If someone gave Tiger Woods abuse would they be banned from all golf tournaments ect ect ?

I honestly believe that all people from every section of society should be treated the same but it’s always football fans that get the special treatment

It appears that the government will make laws for anything, including the quite amusing protester in Parliament Square.

No issue with people receiving some sort of consequence for being a flipping twit but I’d have to agree and say why do football fans suffer, what seems to be additional sanctions on top, a double sanction if you will…

I’ve seen many a moron send horrific stuff to musicians, are they banned from gigs. Other sports too…this obsession with bans for football fans is tiresome to some extent, especially when it happens in no other sector…

What about snapping childrens flags or sexist videos? Can we retrospectively ban and fine £200k.

Quoted from Bristol Mariner

What about snapping childrens flags or sexist videos? Can we retrospectively ban and fine £200k.

What about tax evasion?

Quoted from aldi_01

What about tax evasion?

Personality/people skills evasion

They should replace custodial sentences with mandatory attendance of Scunny games.

Quoted from GrimRob

They should replace custodial sentences with mandatory attendance of Scunny games.

I think you'll find that is in breach of their human rights

We are sleepwalking into a state controlled dystopian world. this isn't for race crimes.... it is for hate crimes which is widely open to interpretation.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

It appears that the government will make laws for anything, including the quite amusing protester in Parliament Square.

Bear in mind that the 'noisy protest' law is so loosely defined (and deliberately so) that it can be incredibly draconian and can be used in all sorts of minor instances which would normally be legal protests. Legal pickets, for example? If a police officer decides they are being too 'disruptive', they can be carted off, so it has potentially strike-breaking potential. Does anybody trust that every police officer in the country will use their discretion correctly and not misuse this law? I certainly don't.

Football has always been an easy target for politicians to make an exception of in society. Bullying really. Hard for football to fight back.

Quoted from TownSNAFU5

Football has always been an easy target for politicians to make an exception of in society. Bullying really. Hard for football to fight back.

It’s easier to take the passport from a suspected football hooligan than a Suspected terrorist.

Quoted from Maringer

Bear in mind that the 'noisy protest' law is so loosely defined (and deliberately so) that it can be incredibly draconian and can be used in all sorts of minor instances which would normally be legal protests. Legal pickets, for example? If a police officer decides they are being too 'disruptive', they can be carted off, so it has potentially strike-breaking potential. Does anybody trust that every police officer in the country will use their discretion correctly and not misuse this law? I certainly don't.

Tories essentially introducing laws to stop protests ir union strike type behaviour, where on earth have we seen that before?

Quoted from aldi_01

Tories essentially introducing laws to stop protests ir union strike type behaviour, where on earth have we seen that before?

Let's not kid ourselves.. Labour here would do the same, it's happening with the Liberals and Labour in Australia, the Liberals in Canada, the Democrats in the US, virtually every incumbent government, left or right in the EU and many others around the world. They've all had their taste of communistic control during Covid and have the appetite for more contol of the human race any which way they can. These interpretive laws are to protect themselves so they can use force if we aren't compliant enough..

If you think there's going to be the same freedoms in the future that we've had in the past.. you're sleepwalking..

Quoted from Bigdog

If you think there's going to be the same freedoms in the future that we've had in the past.. you're sleepwalking..

We badly need an electoral pact at the next election between Labour/LibDems/Greens to boot out the Tories and implement a proper proportional representation electoral scheme. They can repeal all these ridiculous laws giving ministers Henry VIII powers while they are at it. It shouldn't be possible for the government to bypass Parliament and make it up as they go along which is what some of these laws effectively enable.

An electoral pact is what we need, but will it happen? Unfortunately, I tend to doubt it.

Quoted from Maringer

We badly need an electoral pact at the next election between Labour/LibDems/Greens to boot out the Tories and implement a proper proportional representation electoral scheme. They can repeal all these ridiculous laws giving ministers Henry VIII powers while they are at it. It shouldn't be possible for the government to bypass Parliament and make it up as they go along which is what some of these laws effectively enable.

An electoral pact is what we need, but will it happen? Unfortunately, I tend to doubt it.

We're at a point in history when it doesn't matter which party is in charge of our country.. None of our politicians can be trusted and none of them are worth our vote..Everyone needs to wake up to the fact that they hate us.. all of them..

The internet was/is a great freedom giving tool for Joe Public, but eventually it's going to be used to enslave us..

We live in a divided society, forced apart by divisive politicians that deliberately say outrageous things, so that the opposition have to say equally outrageous things to counterbalance it.

Anyone who makes sense in the middle is simply lost or drowned out.

That's why there's more friction and more hate. At least, that's how it feels. It takes just a few seconds browsing Twitter before I see an argument where two people are at polar opposites over a topic that needs reasoned debate, not outrageous opinions given at increased frequency until someone gives up or backs down.

Middle ground is hard to achieve. You're now in a situation where the government is on this floating island, on some power trip, with people who buy into this idea that we still hold sway in a world in which we're becoming increasingly small and ever more irrelevant, while the rest of Britain looks on in dismay, struggling to get its act together in a way that will rectify the problem because it lacks leadership.

Gone off on one there but yeah, football fans are treated differently.

Quoted from RichMariner

We live in a divided society, forced apart by divisive politicians that deliberately say outrageous things, so that the opposition have to say equally outrageous things to counterbalance it.

Anyone who makes sense in the middle is simply lost or drowned out.

That's why there's more friction and more hate. At least, that's how it feels. It takes just a few seconds browsing Twitter before I see an argument where two people are at polar opposites over a topic that needs reasoned debate, not outrageous opinions given at increased frequency until someone gives up or backs down.

Middle ground is hard to achieve. You're now in a situation where the government is on this floating island, on some power trip, with people who buy into this idea that we still hold sway in a world in which we're becoming increasingly small and ever more irrelevant, while the rest of Britain looks on in dismay, struggling to get its act together in a way that will rectify the problem because it lacks leadership.

Gone off on one there but yeah, football fans are treated differently.

Gone off on one mate but you’ve squarely head the nail on the head. 👍🏼

So if I had a “ friend” who typed on a message board that Lincoln supporters were six fingered etc, then the police would be round to do my “ friend “ for hate crime, but if my “ friends” house was burgled then all the police would do is give him an incident number.

Quoted from GYinScuntland

So now we can't even type that Lincoln are six fingered, carrot crunching sister fiddlers?
Asking for a friend of course.

You can't be done if you are factual :)

Quoted from aldi_01

Tories essentially introducing laws to stop protests ir union strike type behaviour, where on earth have we seen that before?

Most of the football banning laws , taking away of passports ect were introduced in 2000 under Tony Blair .
They only have to suspect that their is intent to cause trouble for a passport to be taken away and the person have to report on match days ect .
Really it’s the only law we’re someone receives quite harsh punishment and no crime has been committed .
They had is sewn up as legal aid isn’t available as the punishment doesn’t include prison which makes it impossible for most fans accused to be able to afford to defend themselves.

They wouldn’t have dared introducing a law like that against any other section of society.

Another example which a few on here will be able to vouch for was Euro 2000.
Around 900 England fans were arrested then deported from Brussels the day before the first game with Germany .
Nearly all was totally innocent including myself and around 20 others from Grimsby .
We was held in a Belgium jail for 4 days then flown back to Standstead airport on a Belgium Air Force plane with out ever seeing a solicitor or anyone from the embassy .
Most of us had bags , passports, cars , money ect in hotels still in Brussels.
Now if any government in Europe had done the same thing with any other section of society without any due process there would have been hell on .
Nobody from the Labour government at the time , Human rights groups or civil liberty campaigner ect gave a toss about English working class men and it seems to me they still don’t

I think more came in under the tories after Luton/Millwall, Hysel and Hillsbrough

Came in in 1989 under the tories
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/football-related-offences-and-football-banning-orders

Quoted from Roast Em Bobby

I think more came in under the tories after Luton/Millwall, Hysel and Hillsbrough

Came in in 1989 under the tories
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/football-related-offences-and-football-banning-orders

The act was amended by Labour in 2000 to allow banning orders to be issued on the suspicion of local police.
Looking at the dates on that Wiki page below the law came in as a reaction to the Euro 2000 arrest , most of whole were innocent anyway .
Euro 2000 was played in June and the law passed in the July four weeks later .
This wouldn’t have been able to happen to any other section of society
Basically the police became the judge and the jury

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_(Disorder)_Act_2000

Quoted from grimps

Most of the football banning laws , taking away of passports ect were introduced in 2000 under Tony Blair .
They only have to suspect that their is intent to cause trouble for a passport to be taken away and the person have to report on match days ect .
Really it’s the only law we’re someone receives quite harsh punishment and no crime has been committed .
They had is sewn up as legal aid isn’t available as the punishment doesn’t include prison which makes it impossible for most fans accused to be able to afford to defend themselves.

They wouldn’t have dared introducing a law like that against any other section of society.

Another example which a few on here will be able to vouch for was Euro 2000.
Around 900 England fans were arrested then deported from Brussels the day before the first game with Germany .
Nearly all was totally innocent including myself and around 20 others from Grimsby .
We was held in a Belgium jail for 4 days then flown back to Standstead airport on a Belgium Air Force plane with out ever seeing a solicitor or anyone from the embassy .
Most of us had bags , passports, cars , money ect in hotels still in Brussels.
Now if any government in Europe had done the same thing with any other section of society without any due process there would have been hell on .
Nobody from the Labour government at the time , Human rights groups or civil liberty campaigner ect gave a toss about English working class men and it seems to me they still don’t

Don’t disagree but my point was more about the increased law changing and lowers to bypass systems to push things through to benefit government.

Banning orders are questionable and I’m assuming that the lack of real longitudinal study in their effectiveness probably suggests they’re not effective else police forces and government would be ramming it down our necks.

Those sweeping approaches aren’t just used here or against English fans. A good friend received a ban over in Italy on his way back from Crotone, there’d been some disorder…on arrogant back at verona station the police just took them all and banned them…no questions…

It’s just bizarre that people seemingly accept it and I guess the narsative is so against football fans that nobody challenges it.

Yeah lads that’s right. Let’s portray the party we didn’t vote for as treating football fans the worst. !!

It doesn’t fecking matter which party is in. Football fans will always have no rights.
Stop trying to score political points and for once unite against a common enemy.
Politicians that are so far removed from real life on the terraces that they don’t give a fat rats @rse about the vast majority of law abiding, decent people that follow football.

So you are guilty till proved innocent.

Quoted Text

It doesn’t fecking matter which party is in. Football fans will always have no rights.
Stop trying to score political points and for once unite against a common enemy.
Politicians that are so far removed from real life on the terraces that they don’t give a fat rats @rse about the vast majority of law abiding, decent people that follow football.

This. Blair introduced some incredibly draconian laws and wider civil liberties infringements. Boris' government is currently doing very similar. Its a vote winner, sadly, as it appeals to Middle England (where both parties try and appeal to the swing voters) who buy in to the portrayal of football fans as knuckle-dragging thugs.

Replace 'football fans' with 'young people' and the same is true, which Blair especially tapped into.

Quoted from grimps

The act was amended by Labour in 2000 to allow banning orders to be issued on the suspicion of local police.
Looking at the dates on that Wiki page below the law came in as a reaction to the Euro 2000 arrest , most of whole were innocent anyway .
Euro 2000 was played in June and the law passed in the July four weeks later .
This wouldn’t have been able to happen to any other section of society
Basically the police became the judge and the jury

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_(Disorder)_Act_2000

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say but your comment earlier about football banning orders allowing the Police to take away a passport is slightly misleading. They were allowed to do so in relation to a football match being played, so a person could be stopped from travelling to (say) Germany when England were playing in Germany. It didn't stop you taking your kids on holiday to Tenerife.
It also had to be related to an existing football related issue ie you had to have form. Someone who had never been convicted of a football related crime could travel to Germany for that game with no issues.

Your experience of being deported from Brussels (I think you said) sounds like total misuse of this power.

Quoted from aldi_01

Don’t disagree but my point was more about the increased law changing and lowers to bypass systems to push things through to benefit government.

Banning orders are questionable and I’m assuming that the lack of real longitudinal study in their effectiveness probably suggests they’re not effective else police forces and government would be ramming it down our necks.

Those sweeping approaches aren’t just used here or against English fans. A good friend received a ban over in Italy on his way back from Crotone, there’d been some disorder…on arrogant back at verona station the police just took them all and banned them…no questions…

It’s just bizarre that people seemingly accept it and I guess the narsative is so against football fans that nobody challenges it.

Getting laws passed against football fans is an easy thing to do in Parliament, there’s unlikely to be any opposition from any party .
The example I gave of the current law shows that they managed to get a law taking away civil liberties from 1000s of people less than 4 weeks after the event which caused a he act to be put before Parliament.
Now for any MP getting a law passed is a badge of honour , for any Home Secretary getting a law passed and looking tough on crime is a golden opportunity.

I was reading today that police want to bring in random drug and alcohol tests for football fans which could result in banning orders , passports removed ect .
If this is the case then it flipping stinks as again this wouldn’t ever happen against any other section of society

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say but your comment earlier about football banning orders allowing the Police to take away a passport is slightly misleading. They were allowed to do so in relation to a football match being played, so a person could be stopped from travelling to (say) Germany when England were playing in Germany. It didn't stop you taking your kids on holiday to Tenerife.
It also had to be related to an existing football related issue ie you had to have form. Someone who had never been convicted of a football related crime could travel to Germany for that game with no issues.

Your experience of being deported from Brussels (I think you said) sounds like total misuse of this power.

If England are playing in a month long tournament then you passport would be taken ( or actually handed in) for the whole month .
to get it to go on Holliday somewhere else you would need agreement from a court , which again would cost money and time getting

I can’t remember the exact number of days for one off games but it’s probably 2-3 days before a game which is pretty restrictive for planning family holidays.

And a ban and restrictions can be made without an actual previous conviction , the police can make their case and apply on their suspicions only .
Obviously they’d have to provide some evidence of this but with no legal aid available and people needing to take time off work ect it became easier and cheaper for the accused fan to accept it

Quoted from Bigdog

We're at a point in history when it doesn't matter which party is in charge of our country.. None of our politicians can be trusted and none of them are worth our vote..Everyone needs to wake up to the fact that they hate us.. all of them..

The internet was/is a great freedom giving tool for Joe Public, but eventually it's going to be used to enslave us..

Absolute nonsense...there are excellent M.P. s in all parties. Most of what M.P.s do for their constituents goes on behind the scenes in offices up and down the country.

Quoted from grimps

If England are playing in a month long tournament then you passport would be taken ( or actually handed in) for the whole month and to get it to go on Holliday somewhere else you would need agreement from a court , which again would cost money and time getting

I can’t remember the exact number of days for one off games but it’s probably 2-3 days before a game which is pretty restrictive for planning family holidays

You're right on both accounts. But there had (has) to be a reason for it, you had to have been convicted of a football related crime or something like being banned from your club or have been deported previously for a football related 'crime'. It's not just a random process of stopping any football fan from travelling.

I have a mate who travels to every England game away. A decent, law abiding bloke who loves football and watching England. Never had a problem. And he has been in the ground when there have been disturbances, but he has kept himself out of them.

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

You're right on both accounts. But there had (has) to be a reason for it, you had to have been convicted of a football related crime or something like being banned from your club or have been deported previously for a football related 'crime'. It's not just a random process of stopping any football fan from travelling.

I have a mate who travels to every England game away. A decent, law abiding bloke who loves football and watching England. Never had a problem. And he has been in the ground when there have been disturbances, but he has kept himself out of them.

I’m sure most of the fans that the law was used against probably deserved banning ect but it still doesn’t make it right that the police can decide who has a passport taken away , banned from areas of his own Town and using public transport ect without the accused really having a chance of defending themselves .
I’ll say it again that this wouldn’t happen against any other section of society 😀

Arrested and banned for offending someone,oh well it beats solving crimes for a living,There is no place in this world for racism in any shape or form
but this is very very dangerous ground,only have to think back too last season when someone very clearly shouted fat and some SJW misheard it and started screaming racist,imagine if the PC police had these powers then,match vlogs used as evidence in the old bailey,the looneys have taken over the asylum.

Quoted from grimps

I’m sure most of the fans that the law was used against probably deserved banning ect but it still doesn’t make it right that the police can decide who has a passport taken away , banned from areas of his own Town and using public transport ect without the accused really having a chance of defending themselves .
I’ll say it again that this wouldn’t happen against any other section of society 😀

I think you are either naive or ignorant if you think they only bring in laws like this to treat football fans badly. They've brought loads of laws in to target specific groups - asylum seekers, peaceful protesters, pickets, ethnic minorities, and- even people putting on raves in fields, and it's predominantly been the tories behind all of these things. Withdrawing from the Human Rights Act is the next part of the process.

how does this sort those being racist / abusive online not in the country. i heard some that abused the England players (Saka etc) a) weren't even English b) Weren't based in England

Quoted from Gaffer58

So if I had a “ friend” who typed on a message board that Lincoln supporters were six fingered etc, then the police would be round to do my “ friend “ for hate crime, but if my “ friends” house was burgled then all the police would do is give him an incident number.

Yes

I absolutely hate this type of policy which is entirely based around getting a press release out to the Daily Mail and the Torygraph. The problem with this is that it not only costs the taxpayer in terms of administration and policing, It will engender more hatred and do nothing tackle people's racism and bigotry.

A much better approach is that rather than prosecuting people, you divert them onto an anti-racism course or session. Give people the opportunity to have their views challenged. If they refuse, fine stick a banning order on them. But I suspect forcing people to confront the damage their actions cause will in the long-run do much more good than macho Daily Mail garbage than these banning orders.

However, this is a fluffy Liberal viewpoint and the chances of the Tories doing anything sensible is next to nil.

Worst Government in living memory , they are pathetic

Isn’t don’t send hate speech or be a racist the answer.

Quoted from RexFannies

Isn’t don’t send hate speech or be a racist the answer.

The sentiment is there but again, the debate is also about the fact football fans are treated significantly differently to other sports/music fans…

Quoted from aldi_01

The sentiment is there but again, the debate is also about the fact football fans are treated significantly differently to other sports/music fans…

Maybe football has it right and others have it wrong. The debate seems to be of the opinion that football should relax their stance when actually other industries should be tougher.

Quoted from Bigdog

Let's not kid ourselves.. Labour here would do the same, it's happening with the Liberals and Labour in Australia, the Liberals in Canada, the Democrats in the US, virtually every incumbent government, left or right in the EU and many others around the world. They've all had their taste of communistic control during Covid and have the appetite for more contol of the human race any which way they can. These interpretive laws are to protect themselves so they can use force if we aren't compliant enough..

If you think there's going to be the same freedoms in the future that we've had in the past.. you're sleepwalking..

Best post I've seen on here for a long time.