Didn't see that coming....

https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/ice-factory-theatre-plan-moves-5570363

(will delete if it's been mentioned elsewhere on here)

Kwackers

Quoted from golfer

Kwackers

Made me Twitch........


(That's a reference for older viewers!)

Can't believe they have found somebody daft enough to actually pay money for it.  Can't see how a theatre or whatever will make any money there, especially since you have to get through the gatehouse to access it.

Good luck to Schutes for having a go.

Think you are wrong there mimma. I think a venue of that type for various forms of the arts would be most welcome and would be well frequented.

As ever, time will tell

I am glad he is not involved with GTFC anymore

Quoted from golfer

I am glad he is not involved with GTFC anymore

Based on what?

Quoted from golfer

I am glad he is not involved with GTFC anymore

Don’t be surprised if he is involved with the club again in some capacity at some point.

That's the new fanzone!  They're gonna make a station rihgt outside the ground and run trains to it.

To be honest this failed used car salesman is wanting his docks development and will do anything to upset the apple cart that is Grimsby Town to do so. He did so before and will do so again.

Quoted from exiledmeggie

To be honest this failed used car salesman is wanting his docks development and will do anything to upset the apple cart that is Grimsby Town to do so. He did so before and will do so again.

bloody hell has he poked your mrs??

anything that regenerates the current eyesore of the Ice Factory can only be a good thing for this town

Quoted from exiledmeggie

To be honest this failed used car salesman is wanting his docks development and will do anything to upset the apple cart that is Grimsby Town to do so. He did so before and will do so again.

Guess you've never failed at anything in life?

Really hope he manages to pull this off. Will be a massive boost for the town.

Quoted from exiledmeggie

To be honest this failed used car salesman is wanting his docks development and will do anything to upset the apple cart that is Grimsby Town to do so. He did so before and will do so again.

Yet he's a millionaire...

At least Dave Moore will have plenty of ice for treatments once he gets the machines renewed.  ;D

Cold sponge or ice bath..... your choice , guys !!

Good luck to the dock security if 1000 plus people go to artistic or musical events !!

Quoted from Grimsby2012

Yet he's a millionaire...

If he was really serious, he would had used his money last May and bought Grimsby Town, planned the new stadium and be digging the foundations. He has not.

This is not about regeneration of Grimsby, but who gets in the trough of the regeneration money!

Quoted from exiledmeggie

If he was really serious, he would had used his money last May and bought Grimsby Town, planned the new stadium and be digging the foundations. He has not.

This is not about regeneration of Grimsby, but who gets in the trough of the regeneration money!

Alright John, you not tired of making up new accounts on here?

Quoted from exiledmeggie

If he was really serious, he would had used his money last May and bought Grimsby Town, planned the new stadium and be digging the foundations. He has not.

This is not about regeneration of Grimsby, but who gets in the trough of the regeneration money!

You clearly have no clue about how long it takes to identify sites, confirm feasibility, develop designs, line up finance, get planning permission, consult and refine designs, procure and build a stadium.

Apologies if I’ve missed any major steps. But do chip in with further insightful comments.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

You clearly have no clue about how long it takes to identify sites, confirm feasibility, develop designs, line up finance, get planning permission, consult and refine designs, procure and build a stadium.

Apologies if I’ve missed any major steps. But do chip in with further insightful comments.

Get all the ducks in a row

I am not convinced this place can be turned into anything without a shed load of taxpayers cash. And once done it has to pay for itself in this pretend historic Kasbah quarter. It has to attract custom from long distances. The question I would be thinking about is whether Mr Shutes is in for the long haul of trying to keep the income flowing enough or is he just acting as a middleman developer ready to sell on his share at the appropriate point. So here is the snag in this sort of public  funding, it is for pump priming not for maintenance. I have no doubt it will look good and will receive the customary smiley PR pics in the GT. Long term the council could have a millstone round its neck.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

I am not convinced this place can be turned into anything without a shed load of taxpayers cash. And once done it has to pay for itself in this pretend historic Kasbah quarter. It has to attract custom from long distances. The question I would be thinking about is whether Mr Shutes is in for the long haul of trying to keep the income flowing enough or is he just acting as a middleman developer ready to sell on his share at the appropriate point. So here is the snag in this sort of public  funding, it is for pump priming not for maintenance. I have no doubt it will look good and will receive the customary smiley PR pics in the GT. Long term the council could have a millstone round its neck.

I presume the council won’t be allowed to send a bean on it unless income streams are assessed as being robust. The money is from central government and the Treasury isn’t just going to file it out without checking. If Treasury says no then it’s Shutes’ loss.

I’d imagine similar concerns were expressed about the redevelopment of that Liverpool dock area and the creation of the Liverpool Tate.

Surely this is a positive for the town, and shows some forward thinking and believe that it can work.

There is a local condition called Grimsbyitis whereby people dismiss and complain about anything positive or changes for the better and in the next breath moan about the town going backwards, I myself was infected with this in years gone by and still have the odd symptoms now and again but am getting better at managing it.

Lets hope Shutes pulls this off and it is a catylist for further interest and investments in Grimsby.

Untrustworthy bullshitter who is only in it for himself

The area needed investment decades ago. You’ve only got to take a trip over the bridge to see what they’ve done with and around Hull marina to see what’s possible, albeit probably on a smaller scale. Large parts of the docks are derelict and prime development land, and with a combination of the council dragging their heels and general ineptitude, it takes developers like Mr Shutes to kick start these regenerations.

Imagine the docks with bars, restaurants, entertainment, hotels, apartments and retail with a community football stadium at the heart of it. It would completely transform this town. Sadly things like that don’t happen in Grimsby.

Quoted from golfer

Untrustworthy bullshitter who is only in it for himself

Bring back honest John!

I can see it now, Tommy Turgoose is Hamlet on opening night of the new theatre of national importance.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

I presume the council won’t be allowed to send a bean on it unless income streams are assessed as being robust. The money is from central government and the Treasury isn’t just going to file it out without checking. If Treasury says no then it’s Shutes’ loss.

I’d imagine similar concerns were expressed about the redevelopment of that Liverpool dock area and the creation of the Liverpool Tate.

The Liverpool and Hull investments coincided with “City of Culture” status and funding from the EU. Better to compare with places like Doncaster that got gallons to pour down the drain despite being in a good position for custom.

I know it sounds negative but something like this needs nailing down. There will be lots of suggested uses apart from a theatre/cinema. Cafe culture, coffee bars, some retail units, wedding venue etc. Can the area support more of these? Has this place got more to offer than a one-off experience? We saw this problem with the hype over the Fishing Heritage Centre 30 years ago..

I agree with you about Shutes, he does not seem to be someone who would run with a risky plan …… but you never know. Like I say, it needs nailing down or it will start to smell of something like May. My personal preference was always that Shutes would redevelop the Freemo area but there may not be as many grants for that.

I only have 2 word to say on this “non football”.

At the end of the day, something is better than nothing. Some complain about the use of taxpayers' money but forget that the taxpayer had made many grants all over the country on various projects.

If you look at the positives, the Ice House will be saved. Shutes has made positive contact with ABP and presumably will have a working relationship. Shutes and 1878 are also known to each other and Shutes want to build a new Stadium on the docks.

Grant money, beit regeneration or some other name, may be found in the future for a stadium on the docks. This may not the preferred site for some but you have to follow the money if you want a new stadium. This will be needed once we get back into the league, next season.

Knock the f#cker down.

Quoted from moosey_club

I can see it now, Tommy Turgoose is Hamlet helmet on opening night of the new theatre of national importance.

That's a cutting first post FS.  :)

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

The Liverpool and Hull investments coincided with “City of Culture” status and funding from the EU. Better to compare with places like Doncaster that got gallons to pour down the drain despite being in a good position for custom.

I know it sounds negative but something like this needs nailing down. There will be lots of suggested uses apart from a theatre/cinema. Cafe culture, coffee bars, some retail units, wedding venue etc. Can the area support more of these? Has this place got more to offer than a one-off experience? We saw this problem with the hype over the Fishing Heritage Centre 30 years ago..

I agree with you about Shutes, he does not seem to be someone who would run with a risky plan …… but you never know. Like I say, it needs nailing down or it will start to smell of something like May. My personal preference was always that Shutes would redevelop the Freemo area but there may not be as many grants for that.

Both Hull and Liverpools investments started years  before any city of culture status was awarded, what they did have in common were forward thinking councils and investors who grabbed and pushed for everything they could get their hands on, the initial small investments generated more interest in the cities and more investment, Hull is a very very different place now to when I worked there in the late 80s and 90s.
Grimsby is only now starting the process of modernisation and investment which can only succeed if all of us get behind the plans and ideas and see some real positive changes around our town.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

I only have 2 word to say on this “non football”.

I would say it’s very much GTFC related because all the access issues of the Fish Dock 3 site will be done as part of the Ice House redevelopment potentially saving GTFC a small fortune.

And re: all the Shutes hating…

He started the takeover as a solo project. Because of that Stockwood and Pettit both came forward independently offering their services and were introduced.

Without Shutes there would have been no takeover. Without Shutes Stockwood and Pettit wouldn’t have even met. Whatever Stockwood and Pettit achieve as GTFC custodians we have Shutes to thank for getting the ball rolling. Fact!

But where are the Ice House Gang going to meet now? Is Shutes going to buy up Park Street so the PSM have somewhere to go with their zimmer frames. Apologies if you are too young to remember the early 70s!

Quoted from Total Hawsehole

But where are the Ice House Gang going to meet now? Is Shutes going to buy up Park Street so the PSM have somewhere to go with their zimmer frames. Apologies if you are too young to remember the early 70s!

As an East Marsh lad who grew up in the 70s this made me smile.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

I would say it’s very much GTFC related because all the access issues of the Fish Dock 3 site will be done as part of the Ice House redevelopment potentially saving GTFC a small fortune.

If we relocate to the docks I take it?

Quoted from Azimuth

Surely this is a positive for the town, and shows some forward thinking and believe that it can work.

There is a local condition called Grimsbyitis whereby people dismiss and complain about anything positive or changes for the better and in the next breath moan about the town going backwards, I myself was infected with this in years gone by and still have the odd symptoms now and again but am getting better at managing it.

Lets hope Shutes pulls this off and it is a catylist for further interest and investments in Grimsby.

I moved away from Grimsby 18 years ago, half my life ago now - Christ, I can’t even believe it’s that long.

I couldn’t be prouder of where I’m from, where I was born - anyone who knows me where I live now knows I’m a Grimsby lad and a Town fan through and through. I don’t know if if it’s a Grimsby thing, but I wear it on my sleeve. Virtually every small talk conversation begins with “So how are Grimsby doing?”. Of course, that’s a bit of a conversation killer in recent times.

But if we focus Grimsby specifically (and not Meggies, which is in slightly better fettle), I can think of literally no tangible improvement in the area in terms of amenities since I left home. Without a doubt it’s gone backwards. When I left the town you could have a night out in Lloyds, Yates’s, Walkabout, Chicago Rock. All of those places are gone now, and replaced by nothing of significance.

Freshney Place was only 10 years out of date. Nothing has changed there since, other than the closing of its former flagship stores - Woolworths, Virgin, BHS, Binns. Even the tiles on the floor are either the same as the ones as I remember seeing when I would be reluctantly forced shopping with my mum as a toddler, or replaced by the cheapest, nastiest vinyl. It’s a jungle of pound shops and empty units. It’s now 28 years out of date.

Christ, when I grew up we had a cinema. It was a shíthole with only three screens, no leg room and an often treacherous walk home if you went at night, but at least there was one. The Town is missing some of the very basics of modern living.

I’ve lived in and spent time in some proper crap towns in my life, particularly in the north east. Hartlepool looks like something out of an apocalypse movie for the most part, but at least the marina has been regenerated into something worthy of visiting for a meal or a night out.

It has a Nando’s, Pizza Hut and a Frankie & Bennie’s. I’m not suggesting that chain restaurants are the epitome of modern dining experience, they are quite the opposite, but they are a signal that big business has taken notice of the area. Beyond fast food, we don’t have anything of that ilk anymore, do we?

The area has so much potential. The cost of living is so agreeable and Cleethorpes in the summer is absolutely wonderful and massively underrated - I never appreciated what a great place it was until I moved away.

But the state of Grimsby today saddens me - it needs a lot of investment. I don’t know much of Tom Shutes or his motives, but I don’t understand the instant dismissal of any proposal which stands to turn a part of the town which has laid derelict for decades into something of genuine value to the community.

I’d love nothing more than to see place where I was born and was brought up fulfil its massive potential.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

The Liverpool and Hull investments coincided with “City of Culture” status and funding from the EU. Better to compare with places like Doncaster that got gallons to pour down the drain despite being in a good position for custom.

I know it sounds negative but something like this needs nailing down. There will be lots of suggested uses apart from a theatre/cinema. Cafe culture, coffee bars, some retail units, wedding venue etc. Can the area support more of these? Has this place got more to offer than a one-off experience? We saw this problem with the hype over the Fishing Heritage Centre 30 years ago..

I agree with you about Shutes, he does not seem to be someone who would run with a risky plan …… but you never know. Like I say, it needs nailing down or it will start to smell of something like May. My personal preference was always that Shutes would redevelop the Freemo area but there may not be as many grants for that.

The source of the funding doesn’t matter whether it’s from UK government or the EU. The plan either stacks up or it doesn’t. I hope it does stack up.

There won’t be loads of different uses. The man is planning to build a theatre. It has a wider interest than a fishing museum. But hey, if you’re coming to Grimsby to the theatre, why not stay overnight. There’s an interesting museum about the town’s historic industry, that explains why all this old machinery was here. On the way there, there’s a nice brewery taproom which has got a really diverse range of ales. Actually you can also pop down the road and have a nice walk by the coast and stop off at a traditional fish and chip shop. The people are friendly too. Not fake customer service, just genuine welcoming people.

Who knows what other spin-off things will pop up around the ‘kasbah’ that’ll be worth visiting.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

The source of the funding doesn’t matter whether it’s from UK government or the EU. The plan either stacks up or it doesn’t. I hope it does stack up.

There won’t be loads of different uses. The man is planning to build a theatre. It has a wider interest than a fishing museum. But hey, if you’re coming to Grimsby to the theatre, why not stay overnight. There’s an interesting museum about the town’s historic industry, that explains why all this old machinery was here. On the way there, there’s a nice brewery taproom which has got a really diverse range of ales. Actually you can also pop down the road and have a nice walk by the coast and stop off at a traditional fish and chip shop. The people are friendly too. Not fake customer service, just genuine welcoming people.

Who knows what other spin-off things will pop up around the ‘kasbah’ that’ll be worth visiting.

I like optimists. ;)

Quoted from Azimuth

Both Hull and Liverpools investments started years  before any city of culture status was awarded, what they did have in common were forward thinking councils and investors who grabbed and pushed for everything they could get their hands on, the initial small investments generated more interest in the cities and more investment, Hull is a very very different place now to when I worked there in the late 80s and 90s.
Grimsby is only now starting the process of modernisation and investment which can only succeed if all of us get behind the plans and ideas and see some real positive changes around our town.

Quite so. I did a series of photo essays on the Hull docks redevelopment. The money came from the telephone sale and the good fortune of having the deputy PM as an MP. Having said that , the marina has looked impressive from the start as did Princes Quay but the latter was always destined to either fail or cause other shopping areas to fail or both. To be honest Hull may be very different but  it is a moot point if Hull is actually a better place. But as you say a lot depends on local support and the amount of hinterland population.

Quoted from Total Hawsehole

But where are the Ice House Gang going to meet now? Is Shutes going to buy up Park Street so the PSM have somewhere to go with their zimmer frames. Apologies if you are too young to remember the early 70s!

Isnt the IceHouse completely different to the Ice Factory?

Quoted from Poojah

I moved away from Grimsby 18 years ago, half my life ago now - Christ, I can’t even believe it’s that long.

I couldn’t be prouder of where I’m from, where I was born - anyone who knows me where I live now knows I’m a Grimsby lad and a Town fan through and through. I don’t know if if it’s a Grimsby thing, but I wear it on my sleeve. Virtually every small talk conversation begins with “So how are Grimsby doing?”. Of course, that’s a bit of a conversation killer in recent times.

But if we focus Grimsby specifically (and not Meggies, which is in slightly better fettle), I can think of literally no tangible improvement in the area in terms of amenities since I left home. Without a doubt it’s gone backwards. When I left the town you could have a night out in Lloyds, Yates’s, Walkabout, Chicago Rock. All of those places are gone now, and replaced by nothing of significance.

Freshney Place was only 10 years out of date. Nothing has changed there since, other than the closing of its former flagship stores - Woolworths, Virgin, BHS, Binns. Even the tiles on the floor are either the same as the ones as I remember seeing when I would be reluctantly forced shopping with my mum as a toddler, or replaced by the cheapest, nastiest vinyl. It’s a jungle of pound shops and empty units. It’s now 28 years out of date.

Christ, when I grew up we had a cinema. It was a shíthole with only three screens, no leg room and an often treacherous walk home if you went at night, but at least there was one. The Town is missing some of the very basics of modern living.

I’ve lived in and spent time in some proper crap towns in my life, particularly in the north east. Hartlepool looks like something out of an apocalypse movie for the most part, but at least the marina has been regenerated into something worthy of visiting for a meal or a night out.

It has a Nando’s, Pizza Hut and a Frankie & Bennie’s. I’m not suggesting that chain restaurants are the epitome of modern dining experience, they are quite the opposite, but they are a signal that big business has taken notice of the area. Beyond fast food, we don’t have anything of that ilk anymore, do we?

The area has so much potential. The cost of living is so agreeable and Cleethorpes in the summer is absolutely wonderful and massively underrated - I never appreciated what a great place it was until I moved away.

But the state of Grimsby today saddens me - it needs a lot of investment. I don’t know much of Tom Shutes or his motives, but I don’t understand the instant dismissal of any proposal which stands to turn a part of the town which has laid derelict for decades into something of genuine value to the community.

I’d love nothing more than to see place where I was born and was brought up fulfil its massive potential.

*Rose tinted glasses*

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

I like optimists. ;)

Being an optimist might set you up for disappointment, but you have a lot more fun on the way. And if it makes people give something a go, it might actually make a positive difference.  I know how I’d prefer to live my life.

Miserable leading up to the inevitable disappointment, or happy leading up to the inevitable disappointment.

Quoted from Poojah

I moved away from Grimsby 18 years ago, half my life ago now - Christ, I can’t even believe it’s that long.

I couldn’t be prouder of where I’m from, where I was born - anyone who knows me where I live now knows I’m a Grimsby lad and a Town fan through and through. I don’t know if if it’s a Grimsby thing, but I wear it on my sleeve. Virtually every small talk conversation begins with “So how are Grimsby doing?”. Of course, that’s a bit of a conversation killer in recent times.

But if we focus Grimsby specifically (and not Meggies, which is in slightly better fettle), I can think of literally no tangible improvement in the area in terms of amenities since I left home. Without a doubt it’s gone backwards. When I left the town you could have a night out in Lloyds, Yates’s, Walkabout, Chicago Rock. All of those places are gone now, and I

Rose tinted specs, the pubs mentioned had a glory year, maybe two....but they all closed for a reason,.......too many drug users and mini drug dealers
Being pretty much at my prime in those years the Riverhead definitely became the place to go to.....massively impacted on Cleethorpes and stole the custom of the traditional Meggies circuit...but didnt last long.

Quoted from moosey_club

Rose tinted specs, the pubs mentioned had a glory year, maybe two....but they all closed for a reason,.......too many drug users and mini drug dealers
Being pretty much at my prime in those years the Riverhead definitely became the place to go to.....massively impacted on Cleethorpes and stole the custom of the traditional Meggies circuit...but didnt last long.

I was never really a drinker but if and when I went out back then you'd do the riverhead then catch the free midnight train to clee

Quoted from moosey_club

Rose tinted specs, the pubs mentioned had a glory year, maybe two....but they all closed for a reason,.......too many drug users and mini drug dealers
Being pretty much at my prime in those years the Riverhead definitely became the place to go to.....massively impacted on Cleethorpes and stole the custom of the traditional Meggies circuit...but didnt last long.

The drug dealers weren’t necessarily the problem, the council saw easy rent and the pubs almost set themselves up to compete with meggies which was foolish. They were large chain pubs serving naff ale. That has a shelf life and aside from walkabout still having some high street prominence elsewhere, the others dwindled. Working with community groups at the time, underage drinking was causing a bigger issue too.

Grimsby has potential but it needs people to think and just do. Towns like Grimsby often have folk who poo poo things based on very little evidence, I always hear, ‘no point, will just get vandalised’ or ‘waste of time, nobody will use it’…negativity doesn’t help.

I spend a bit of time in Hull for various reasons, more so recently, people tell me it’s loads nicer than Grimsby. That isn’t true, they have a small area, similar to what he have but they redeveloped it…that can happen here…

Quoted from Poojah

I moved away from Grimsby 18 years ago, half my life ago now - Christ, I can’t even believe it’s that long.

I couldn’t be prouder of where I’m from, where I was born - anyone who knows me where I live now knows I’m a Grimsby lad and a Town fan through and through. I don’t know if if it’s a Grimsby thing, but I wear it on my sleeve. Virtually every small talk conversation begins with “So how are Grimsby doing?”. Of course, that’s a bit of a conversation killer in recent times.

But if we focus Grimsby specifically (and not Meggies, which is in slightly better fettle), I can think of literally no tangible improvement in the area in terms of amenities since I left home. Without a doubt it’s gone backwards. When I left the town you could have a night out in Lloyds, Yates’s, Walkabout, Chicago Rock. All of those places are gone now, and replaced by nothing of significance.

Freshney Place was only 10 years out of date. Nothing has changed there since, other than the closing of its former flagship stores - Woolworths, Virgin, BHS, Binns. Even the tiles on the floor are either the same as the ones as I remember seeing when I would be reluctantly forced shopping with my mum as a toddler, or replaced by the cheapest, nastiest vinyl. It’s a jungle of pound shops and empty units. It’s now 28 years out of date.

Christ, when I grew up we had a cinema. It was a shíthole with only three screens, no leg room and an often treacherous walk home if you went at night, but at least there was one. The Town is missing some of the very basics of modern living.

I’ve lived in and spent time in some proper crap towns in my life, particularly in the north east. Hartlepool looks like something out of an apocalypse movie for the most part, but at least the marina has been regenerated into something worthy of visiting for a meal or a night out.

It has a Nando’s, Pizza Hut and a Frankie & Bennie’s. I’m not suggesting that chain restaurants are the epitome of modern dining experience, they are quite the opposite, but they are a signal that big business has taken notice of the area. Beyond fast food, we don’t have anything of that ilk anymore, do we?

The area has so much potential. The cost of living is so agreeable and Cleethorpes in the summer is absolutely wonderful and massively underrated - I never appreciated what a great place it was until I moved away.

But the state of Grimsby today saddens me - it needs a lot of investment. I don’t know much of Tom Shutes or his motives, but I don’t understand the instant dismissal of any proposal which stands to turn a part of the town which has laid derelict for decades into something of genuine value to the community.

I’d love nothing more than to see place where I was born and was brought up fulfil its massive potential.

I moved away in 92 but usually back every 2nd weekend. During this time I’ve lived in and worked in a number of places across England inc the aforementioned Hull in the period when the Council sold its biggest asset the telephone company to invest some of the revenue in the City.

Grimsby seems to be one of those places that has been forgotten about despite having a reasonable size resident population that generally live and work in the Town.

I’m not sure what the economic development agenda of Local Government is in the area but it feels like they have zero idea about investing in leisure and hospitality, two sectors that pre COVID where on the move upward as former retail and commercial property space has been made available for development or lease.

For the Town to attract the operators we see in other medium size Town there needs to be locations & infrastructure made available and though it may seem far fetched there are areas in the Town that could be redeveloped to support this.

Like I said this is “non football” and despite Schutes getting some stick on here by some who have an ill informed axe to grind because he bailed out of the consortium at the last minute I think he should be applauded for his insight and ambition, two things that appear to have been in short supply by many who have it within their gift to initiate positive change in the Town.  

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Like I said this is “non football” and despite Schutes getting some stick on here by some who have an ill informed axe to grind because he bailed out of the consortium at the last minute I think he should be applauded for his insight and ambition, two things that appear to have been in short supply by many who have it within their gift to initiate positive change in the Town.  

O.K....think it's time for it to go into "non football" now.

Quoted from aldi_01

Alright John, you not tired of making up new accounts on here?

I think you would had noticed, John has left the building some time back! Long after I joined in!