Posted by: KingstonMariner, June 15, 2021, 10:31pm
Surprise surprise.
This time the Met. Inquiry ruled that the corrupt practices still go on and weren’t just 30-odd years ago. I thought Cressida male private* was a good appointment originally (in spite of the De Menezes killing) but she’s gotta go now.
Inquiry into Daniel Morgan’s murder in 1987 by the way. The murder scene wasn’t even searched! The guy was found with an axe in his head.
As an aside, an inquest in 1988 ruled it was an unlawful killing.
* and that’s got to beat Icey’s half-time homosexual as an example of the profanity checker gone mad.
Posted by: ska face, June 15, 2021, 10:35pm; Reply: 1
The deeper story is astounding and shows how deep into the heart of the British state that this corruption lies. This video is a decent little overview. Fùcking revolting, they all want putting against the wall.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, June 15, 2021, 10:38pm; Reply: 2
Frauds of the World linked to the rozzers involved too.
Posted by: MarinerWY, June 15, 2021, 10:42pm; Reply: 3
The Met need disbanding. They should of been disbanded years ago. Can have debates about the wider role of the police force, but even (especially?) those sympathetic to the police service must want the Met disbanding, it's rotten to its core.
Stephen Lawrence Jean Charles de Menzes Ian Tomlinson Daniel Morgan
To name a few. Not to mention their role in the Miners Strike and spying on environmental groups.
Corrupt and rotten to the core, if it was a school administration it would have been declared unfit years ago and another authority brought in to reform it.
Posted by: Manchester Mariner, June 15, 2021, 10:45pm; Reply: 4
Maybe Line Of Duty was actually a documentary.
Posted by: Rick12, June 16, 2021, 7:01am; Reply: 5
This time the Met. Inquiry ruled that the corrupt practices still go on and weren’t just 30-odd years ago. .
This story surprised me a bit and I was saddened to hear of it. Hope things get cleaned up. Discredits those in the Metropolitan police who were trying to do a tough job at that time in what is often a very difficult environment/situations. I know the BBC done a very poignant drama based on a true story on the Metropolitan police just recently in red white and blue .About a young black man who joins to try to change things for the better .
Posted by: KingstonMariner, June 16, 2021, 9:31am; Reply: 6
This story surprised me a bit and I was saddened to hear of it. Hope things get cleaned up. Discredits those in the Metropolitan police who were trying to do a tough job at that time in what is often a very difficult environment/situations. I know the BBC done a very poignant drama based on a true story on the Metropolitan police just recently in red white and blue .About a young black man who joins to try to change things for the better .
I think you’re sugar-coating it a bit with the ‘trying to do a tough job’ line. They’ve been banged to rights by an independent panel, appointed and presented in Parliament by a government not renowned for being anti-police.
At the very least it was incompetence in the handling of the investigation into the murder and at worst corrupt policing. Then got years senior leadership have been obstructing the investigations into the investigation including that conducted by the panel. We’re not talking about the bad old days. We’re talking about senior officers hiding things recently.
The police’s job wouldn’t be so tough if they acted with integrity.
Posted by: Rick12, June 16, 2021, 12:55pm; Reply: 7
Regardless of how you treat some people whilst in uniform though be it army/ police some don't like authority and resent being told what to do.
Unfortunately, the problem started decades ago with what at the time people known as 'do gooders'. A copper clipped a yob and it was accepted. Now it's police brutality. I am NOT saying it was right all the time but a copper knew his patch, who were thieves, drunks, and troublemakers.
Without going into many details law order was kept and don't forget that the police prosecuted ALL, not the cps who only prosecute 100% of cases where they will get a prosecution for figures. Again moving forward we have the defence solicitor who says 'my client had a deprived background etc.'
Moving forward again we had the disappearance of the local bobby, the copper who both you and your parents grew up with, the copper who knew his patch. Now we have the cavalry who come charging into a situation, lead by promotion seeking superiors who pretend to want the best for a community; until they leave and then a new superior takes over. This person knows nothing about an area and tweaks things to police their way.
We then have chief chief constables who when they get the job, then say they cannot police because of lack of funds. These highly intelligent policemen take on a job knowing they cannot deliver the policing the public expect !!!!!!!!!.
Lastly, we have the politicians who bring out new criminal laws but fail to pass sentences that will deter the criminals. They also fail to build new jails to house the criminals or replace the old ones, not to mention the pressures they put on the judiciary not to send villains to jail.
Sorry to all for my rant but in my opinion the whole system is not fit for purpose and is totally corrupt. We are now left with a situation that the police do little because it is against the perpetrator's rights, or totally overreact.
It doesn't mean we have to accept police brutality or corruption.
Posted by: Rick12, June 16, 2021, 2:06pm; Reply: 9
Unfortunately, the problem started decades ago with what at the time people known as 'do gooders'. A copper clipped a yob and it was accepted. Now it's police brutality. I am NOT saying it was right all the time but a copper knew his patch, who were thieves, drunks, and troublemakers.
Without going into many details law order was kept and don't forget that the police prosecuted ALL, not the cps who only prosecute 100% of cases where they will get a prosecution for figures. Again moving forward we have the defence solicitor who says 'my client had a deprived background
I like your sentiments DB. Certainly in this country some things are a bit soft and things could be hardened.
Having said that I do feel you need the right sort of person in the police / army/ teachers even to make a difference. Someone with a good heart can make all the difference. Sometimes people get through the recruitment process and are not a right fit for the job. Herein for me is where the problem lies.
Posted by: ska face, June 16, 2021, 2:06pm; Reply: 10
Just absolute incoherent babbling shíte. There’s a generation of people who seem to think that crime has been invented in the last 30 years, and that’s only because Dixon of Dock Green isn’t allowed to mete out corporal punishment when he fancies it.
Come and join us in the millennium please.
Posted by: Rick12, June 16, 2021, 2:14pm; Reply: 11
Just absolute incoherent babbling shíte. There’s a generation of people who seem to think that crime has been invented in the last 30 years, and that’s only because Dixon of Dock Green isn’t allowed to mete out corporal punishment when he fancies it.
Come and join us in the millennium please.
I think DB has a point though Skaface. In some countries particularly in the middle east and from English people that have lived out there they say this country is a bit soft. Crime tends to be lower out there as people know there less likely to get a slap on the wrist. Muggings for instance are dealt with by beatings both from the public and police . Bit extreme I know but serves the point that without discipline alongside other things some people will never change.
Posted by: ska face, June 16, 2021, 3:24pm; Reply: 12
Yes, despite the endless reams of evidence and studies that show precisely the opposite is true. We live in a profoundly sick society, and some people just can’t think of anything other than more violence, more punishment, more punitive measures, more bullying.
Then when presented with evidence of INSTITUTIONAL corruption in the police, apologists like yourself want to put it down to a few individuals.
Just absolute incoherent babbling shíte. There’s a generation of people who seem to think that crime has been invented in the last 30 years, and that’s only because Dixon of Dock Green isn’t allowed to mete out corporal punishment when he fancies it.
Come and join us in the millennium please.
Having struggled to make any sense of your babbling post I don't really know what point you are trying to make.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, June 16, 2021, 4:25pm; Reply: 14
I like your sentiments DB. Certainly in this country some things are a bit soft and things could be hardened.
Having said that I do feel you need the right sort of person in the police / army/ teachers even to make a difference. Someone with a good heart can make all the difference. Sometimes people get through the recruitment process and are not a right fit for the job. Herein for me is where the problem lies.
The problem isn’t the people being recruited per se, it’s the people doing the recruitment and their attitudes that need to be looked at first. And the people who train them and inculcate the attitudes. And the senior leaders who cover up and protect the bad eggs. In short it’s culture.
The problem isn’t the people being recruited per se, it’s the people doing the recruitment and their attitudes that need to be looked at first. And the people who train them and inculcate the attitudes. And the senior leaders who cover up and protect the bad eggs. In short it’s culture.
I totally agree. At one time the police had integrity and were respected by the public. Somewhere along the line dogooders in the police managed to ditch the integrity and now wonder why the public don't respect the police.
What the public do respect are law and order, it's just the way it's carried out that's the problem.
Posted by: codcheeky, June 16, 2021, 6:08pm; Reply: 16
I totally agree. At one time the police had integrity and were respected by the public. Somewhere along the line dogooders in the police managed to ditch the integrity and now wonder why the public don't respect the police.
What the public do respect are law and order, it's just the way it's carried out that's the problem.
I think you have a rosy view of the past that didn’t exist. Police violence without any sanction especially against children is and always has been wrong. There is a us and them culture in the police, a body that investigates itself and invariably dismisses complaints or pays out large sums of public money without accepting blame. Despite this report it will be business as usual
Posted by: Rick12, June 16, 2021, 8:10pm; Reply: 17
Yes, despite the endless reams of evidence and studies that show precisely the opposite is true. We live in a profoundly sick society, and some people just can’t think of anything other than more violence, more punishment, more punitive measures, more bullying.
Then when presented with evidence of INSTITUTIONAL corruption in the police, apologists like yourself want to put it down to a few individuals.
Depends what studies you read . You need to look at the overall picture. Research shows as well that some individuals due to their genetic make up need more discipline than others otherwise they became wild. This is why you get feral youths. No love or discipline in the home coupled alongside a difficult nature is a recipe for disaster. Likewise you only need to read the likes of Nigel Benn the boxers autobiography and others which further cement this view. Had they not received tough love from their parents they would have gone even more of the boil. But yes I agree with you discipline or punishment is not the only thing needed but love and care as well.
As for the police yes there has been major problems and I have to accept that but that doesn't detract from the greater proportion of police that I feel that do a very tough job to their best of ability.
Depends what studies you read . You need to look at the overall picture. Research shows as well that some individuals due to their genetic make up need more discipline than others otherwise they became wild.
Find me 1 (one) study which shows this. Ideally one that isn’t from the Journal of Race Science.
Posted by: Rick12, June 16, 2021, 8:18pm; Reply: 19
The problem isn’t the people being recruited per se, it’s the people doing the recruitment and their attitudes that need to be looked at first. And the people who train them and inculcate the attitudes. And the senior leaders who cover up and protect the bad eggs. In short it’s culture.
Good points Kingston. I think police like the army are making inroads for the better. I know for one there was more bullying/racism before in the 1970s. The Welsh guards for one were a close knit unit and didn't like anyone of colour being in their unit in the military. Thankfully things have changed from before but like anything there is always room for improvement not just with racism but bullying in all its forms.
Posted by: Rick12, June 16, 2021, 8:28pm; Reply: 20
Find me 1 (one) study which shows this. Ideally one that isn’t from the Journal of Race Science.
I think you need to get in the real world Skaface. There's some good to you but my God have you a lot to learn. Some of your sentiments are not with it. This is real life with all its pain and hardship and good as well. I don't know whether you have lived in a bubble but try talking to more people and realise a leftist agenda like yours don't have all the answers.
As for the research it was when I was studying for a crime module some years back . It was over 5 years ago but the research was a book on crime and children and the research I cited came from animal studies within the book which related animal temperaments to that of humans.Some animals are more wilder by nature like some humans and need corresponding discipline.
As for the research it was when I was studying for a crime module some years back . It was over 5 years ago but the research was a book on crime and children and the research I cited came from animal studies within the book which related animal temperaments to that of humans.Some animals are more wilder by nature like some humans and need corresponding discipline.
This may surprise you, but I remain unconvinced despite this compelling argument.
Posted by: DB, June 16, 2021, 9:35pm; Reply: 23
Well Ska you said:-
Come and join us in the millennium please
I asked:-
Having struggled to make any sense of your babbling post I don't really know what point you are trying to make.
You didn't answer.
We all have differing opinions of, past, present, and future but I would like your answer, please.
Posted by: Rodley Mariner, June 16, 2021, 9:44pm; Reply: 24
Rick12 have you genuinely just suggested certain races need a greater level of discipline than others? You go any recollection of which races it referred to? Gonna hedge a bit that I could guess which race it said didn't need more......
Posted by: Rick12, June 16, 2021, 10:12pm; Reply: 25
Rick12 have you genuinely just suggested certain races need a greater level of discipline than others? You go any recollection of which races it referred to? Gonna hedge a bit that I could guess which race it said didn't need more......
It applies to all races Rodley. At the end of the day people are people. As for the research in question it didn't specify any race in particular but rather looked at things from a general perspective.
Posted by: Rick12, June 16, 2021, 10:16pm; Reply: 26
This may surprise you, but I remain unconvinced despite this compelling argument.
That's OK but from dealing with difficult children in the classroom to dealing with young offenders I can vouch that the research stands true. I don't know if your aware of the background to those that killed young Jamie Bulger back in 1993. Very deprived backgrounds alongside innate problematic behaviour.
Posted by: Rodley Mariner, June 16, 2021, 10:30pm; Reply: 27
It applies to all races Rodley. At the end of the day people are people. As for the research in question it didn't specify any race in particular but rather looked at things from a general perspective.
It's just a bit confusing because you posted that the study said some people needed greater levels of discipline because of their genetic make-up?
Posted by: Rick12, June 16, 2021, 10:36pm; Reply: 28
That's OK but from dealing with difficult children in the classroom to dealing with young offenders I can vouch that the research stands true. I don't know if your aware of the background to those that killed young Jamie Bulger back in 1993. Very deprived backgrounds alongside innate problematic behaviour.
How much do you know about the, ahem, genetic makeup of your “difficult children” in classrooms or young offenders? And what element of the Bulger killers’ genetic makeup predisposed them to carrying out the act?
Posted by: Rick12, June 16, 2021, 10:53pm; Reply: 32
How much do you know about the, ahem, genetic makeup of your “difficult children” in classrooms or young offenders? And what element of the Bulger killers’ genetic makeup predisposed them to carrying out the act?
From talking to their parents. From a early age eg 3 years old some had difficult characters and were taken to child psychologists where amongst others behavioural problems were diagnosed eg conduct disorder which means naturally occurring aggressive streaks and anti social behavior.
As for the Bulger killers particularly Robert Thompson there was some underlying problems there eg lack of emotion for one when interviewed by detectives whereas Jon Venables the other accomplice showed visible signs of distress. Added to that Thompsons background was a lot more problematic than Venables.
Posted by: mariner91, June 16, 2021, 10:54pm; Reply: 33
Who wouldn't want our country to be more like that bastion of freedom and rights Saudi Arabia?
I think it stems from the wife telling what to do for the last 43 years. :B
I solved that problem quite easily. I turn my hearing aids down! 8)
Posted by: DB, June 17, 2021, 7:50am; Reply: 35
Interesting article in the news today about the Met having to reinstate ( if that's the correct word ) a police officer because they got it all wrong. Having read the BBC article it looks like bullying and corruption are still there.
Yes, despite the endless reams of evidence and studies that show precisely the opposite is true. We live in a profoundly sick society, and some people just can’t think of anything other than more violence, more punishment, more punitive measures, more bullying.
Then when presented with evidence of INSTITUTIONAL corruption in the police, apologists like yourself want to put it down to a few individuals.
More kneeling and rainbow boot laces required😂
Posted by: MarinerWY, June 18, 2021, 2:30pm; Reply: 37
I think you need to get in the real world Skaface. There's some good to you but my God have you a lot to learn. Some of your sentiments are not with it. This is real life with all its pain and hardship and good as well. I don't know whether you have lived in a bubble but try talking to more people and realise a leftist agenda like yours and yes Iam a green party member as well don't have all the answers.
As for the research it was when I was studying for a crime module some years back . It was over 5 years ago but the research was a book on crime and children and the research I cited came from animal studies within the book which related animal temperaments to that of humans.Some animals are more wilder by nature like some humans and need corresponding discipline.
Hahahaha This is comedy gold, keep it up
Posted by: MarinerWY, June 18, 2021, 2:33pm; Reply: 38
That's OK but from dealing with difficult children in the classroom to dealing with young offenders I can vouch that the research stands true. I don't know if your aware of the background to those that killed young Jamie Bulger back in 1993. Very deprived backgrounds alongside innate problematic behaviour.
Traumatic and abusive upbringings can cause lack of empathy, poor emotional regulation and cycles of abuse.
That's nurture, not genetics.
Posted by: MarinerWY, June 18, 2021, 2:39pm; Reply: 39
I totally agree. At one time the police had integrity and were respected by the public. Somewhere along the line dogooders in the police managed to ditch the integrity and now wonder why the public don't respect the police.
Can you give us some dates on this era please? Corruption in the Met was rife in the 60's and 70s, Soho porn shops all paid dues to CID to stay open and were subject to showy raids to keep appearances of enforcement. A Chief Superintendant was brought in who famously said "my aim is for the Met to catch more criminals than we employ". The BBC series Bent Coppers covers this era.
So, that was the 60s and 70s, certainly not the era of 'dogooders' and definitely the era of unchecked casual police violence.
Posted by: Rick12, June 18, 2021, 3:09pm; Reply: 40
Traumatic and abusive upbringings can cause lack of empathy, poor emotional regulation and cycles of abuse.
That's nurture, not genetics.
Some children have malfunctioning parts of their brain though which don't allow for much empathy. You add a very deprived background into the mix and it's a recipe for disaster. Having said that a lot of love can help such children and minimise these offsets to some degree.
Posted by: Rick12, June 18, 2021, 3:52pm; Reply: 41
You sure. Your laughter at my comment reflects a mindset that looks at things through blinkered eyes and who still has more to learn about the world as we all do. It reflects badly on you. Life is a never ending learning curve as it is for all of us.
I've come to that thought process by witnessing painful life experiences both through and what's happened to myself and others.Get more life experiences among those who have suffered and you may change your tune. Leftists policies are not the be all and end all of everything. Open your mind and look at the deeper picture.
If you can't keep things constructive go back to a hole and stay there until you come out with a bit of love that helps others. Iam sure there is some there with you as there is with everyone. Bring it out more as it's always the stronger force.
Can you give us some dates on this era please? Corruption in the Met was rife in the 60's and 70s, Soho porn shops all paid dues to CID to stay open and were subject to showy raids to keep appearances of enforcement. A Chief Superintendant was brought in who famously said "my aim is for the Met to catch more criminals than we employ". The BBC series Bent Coppers covers this era.
So, that was the 60s and 70s, certainly not the era of 'dogooders' and definitely the era of unchecked casual police violence.
I was thinking of the 50's and country bobby's, born within 10/15 miles of their beat As for the 60's/70's corruption was rife in many aspects of life, not just the met. Poulson in Leeds comes to mind quickly.
You sure. Your laughter at my comment reflects a mindset that looks at things through blinkered eyes and who still has more to learn about the world as we all do. It reflects badly on you. Life is a never ending learning curve as it is for all of us.
I've come to that thought process by witnessing painful life experiences both through and what's happened to myself and others.Get more life experiences among those who have suffered and you may change your tune. Leftists policies are not the be all and end all of everything. Open your mind and look at the deeper picture.
If you can't keep things constructive go back to a hole and stay there until you come out with a bit of love that helps others. Iam sure there is some there with you as there is with everyone. Bring it out more as it's always the stronger force.
Excellent post Rick which gets you a gold star.
We all agree with free speech which is everybody's right in a democracy. The problem is that some lowlife sticks their head out of their rat hole has a quick look round and then believe they know everything about everything without experiencing any life at all.
They then come on here intent with getting a few green ticks not having the faintest clue about the meaning or understanding of their words.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, June 18, 2021, 7:46pm; Reply: 44
Rick, can you cite the research that you’re talking about?
Posted by: Rick12, June 18, 2021, 9:00pm; Reply: 45
Rick, can you cite the research that you’re talking about?
Kingston Ive stated before but it was a while back that I done my degree. The research as noted came from a book on crime and children and looked at differing facets of why some children end up commiting crime . I can't quote the research as I threw away all my notes . Psychology wasn't really my thing but the crime module was my favourite and I took it to it like a duck to water. Mainly because I've lived in London most of my life and seen a fair bit of bad stuff happened to my friends and also stuff that happened to me from an early age through no fault of my own.
For the record as you know I don't think there is pure evil to anyone and there is a good to everyone however small even psychopaths.
In the end good will always prevail. Of that Iam convinced.
Posted by: Rick12, June 18, 2021, 9:11pm; Reply: 46
We all agree with free speech which is everybody's right in a democracy. The problem is that some lowlife sticks their head out of their rat hole has a quick look round and then believe they know everything about everything without experiencing any life at all.
They then come on here intent with getting a few green ticks not having the faintest clue about the meaning or understanding of their words.
Thanks DB. Much love to you.
Posted by: MarinerWY, June 19, 2021, 5:13am; Reply: 47
I've come to that thought process by witnessing painful life experiences both through and what's happened to myself and others.Get more life experiences among those who have suffered and you may change your tune. Leftists policies are not the be all and end all of everything. Open your mind and look at the deeper picture.
If you can't keep things constructive go back to a hole and stay there until you come out with a bit of love that helps others. Iam sure there is some there with you as there is with everyone. Bring it out more as it's always the stronger force.
You have no idea about my life experiences or my qualifications to talk about the criminal justice system, youth offending or child development.
It would also appear that 'leftists' are living rent free in your head.
I'd also suggest you link to research you quote, particularly if it's claims are as bold as those.
Posted by: MarinerWY, June 19, 2021, 5:19am; Reply: 48
We all agree with free speech which is everybody's right in a democracy. The problem is that some lowlife sticks their head out of their rat hole has a quick look round and then believe they know everything about everything without experiencing any life at all.
They then come on here intent with getting a few green ticks not having the faintest clue about the meaning or understanding of their words.
Lowlife? For posting on a forum? Bit of a snowflake are we?
Posted by: Rick12, June 19, 2021, 7:35am; Reply: 49
You have no idea about my life experiences or my qualifications to talk about the criminal justice system, youth offending or child development.
It would also appear that 'leftists' are living rent free in your head.
I'd also suggest you link to research you quote, particularly if it's claims are as bold as those.
I appreciate that I dont know you or what you have been through in life but as stated Ive been directly involved in youth offending through my work and also have studied child development as part of my degree in Psychology.
As for leftists living rent free in my head I try to listen to all sides eg left and right as all have something valuable to contribute which affects the benefit of the whole.
As for the research again as noted had I been doing my degree 6 years earlier I could have given you it. But psychology is not really my passion .Its more nature ,reading and boxing. I only came into Psychology by default through life experiences beyond my control.
Posted by: aldi_01, June 19, 2021, 8:47am; Reply: 50
Rick, can you cite the research that you’re talking about?
Depends if you want contemporary or wider than that.
Treisman, Bomber, Cooper, Perry are a few of the more contemporary researchers…Treisman is a close friend of myself and my wife, much of her work is centred on trauma informed practice, ensuring the environment is safe to thrive be it school or home.
Earlier researchers, empirical folk include Ainsworth, Visser, Bowlby.
Colley, Rae, Brooks et al have all written books on Social Emotional Mental Health in children, therapeutic approaches, trauma, attachment, self harm and suicide and so forth.
There’s also stuff by Alfie Kohn which takes a humanistic approach to behaviour, looking beyond what we see…
Most of these featured throughout my Masters and continue to support and inform my practice as well as our policies and procedures at school. They go a long way to inform my PhD research too…
Posted by: MarinerWY, June 19, 2021, 1:38pm; Reply: 51
Depends if you want contemporary or wider than that.
Treisman, Bomber, Cooper, Perry are a few of the more contemporary researchers…Treisman is a close friend of myself and my wife, much of her work is centred on trauma informed practice, ensuring the environment is safe to thrive be it school or home.
Earlier researchers, empirical folk include Ainsworth, Visser, Bowlby.
Colley, Rae, Brooks et al have all written books on Social Emotional Mental Health in children, therapeutic approaches, trauma, attachment, self harm and suicide and so forth.
There’s also stuff by Alfie Kohn which takes a humanistic approach to behaviour, looking beyond what we see…
Most of these featured throughout my Masters and continue to support and inform my practice as well as our policies and procedures at school. They go a long way to inform my PhD research too…
Familiar with a couple of those, especially Bowlby and Perry, and stuff around both attachment theory & trauma informed practice.
Research shows as well that some individuals due to their genetic make up need more discipline than others otherwise they became wild.
Out of interest, does any of that research substantiate Rick's claims that people have a pre-determined need to different levels of discipline based on their genetic make-up? Those that I do recognise of your list are very much based around nurture, stress indicators, positive attachment, modeling regulation of emotions and cycles of neglect and trauma - which I would put firmly under the nurture category. I'd also be surprised if any studies which played greater weight on nature predetermined things then followed with a need to lesser/greater 'discipline based on that person's genetics.
Posted by: Rick12, June 19, 2021, 4:47pm; Reply: 52
Out of interest, does any of that research substantiate Rick's claims that people have a pre-determined need to different levels of discipline based on their genetic make-up? Those that I do recognise of your list are very much based around nurture, stress indicators, positive attachment, modeling regulation of emotions and cycles of neglect and trauma - which I would put firmly under the nurture category. I'd also be surprised if any studies which played greater weight on nature predetermined things then followed with a need to lesser/greater 'discipline based on that person's genetics.
Mariner from what I remember the information from the book on crime and children and aggressive traits centred more on boys. Due to having more testosterone levels boys tended to be a lot more active and adventurous than girls. Likewise the animals that were cited were dog's. Some dogs are naturally more aggressive than others likewise with some boys. Firm discipline is required to keep them under control like with some children. Its why boxing for one is a great leveller. Great energy is used up in training both mental and physical which means people that engage in the sport are less likely to commit crime. Its a positive outlet.
Edit. Link below that I found goes someway to showing the various reasons for violent behaviour in children.
Depends if you want contemporary or wider than that.
Treisman, Bomber, Cooper, Perry are a few of the more contemporary researchers…Treisman is a close friend of myself and my wife, much of her work is centred on trauma informed practice, ensuring the environment is safe to thrive be it school or home.
Earlier researchers, empirical folk include Ainsworth, Visser, Bowlby.
Colley, Rae, Brooks et al have all written books on Social Emotional Mental Health in children, therapeutic approaches, trauma, attachment, self harm and suicide and so forth.
There’s also stuff by Alfie Kohn which takes a humanistic approach to behaviour, looking beyond what we see…
Most of these featured throughout my Masters and continue to support and inform my practice as well as our policies and procedures at school. They go a long way to inform my PhD research too…
And does any of that back up what Rick was claiming? Obviously citing specifics would be more convincing.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, June 21, 2021, 12:40am; Reply: 55
I appreciate that I dont know you or what you have been through in life but as stated Ive been directly involved in youth offending through my work and also have studied child development as part of my degree in Psychology.
As for leftists living rent free in my head I try to listen to all sides eg left and right as all have something valuable to contribute which affects the benefit of the whole.
As for the research again as noted had I been doing my degree 6 years earlier I could have given you it. But psychology is not really my passion .Its more nature ,reading and boxing. I only came into Psychology by default through life experiences beyond my control.
To be honest mate, a disinterested reader could be forgiven for thinking you’re a fraud.
You claim not to be interested in psychology and cannot therefore remember where you ‘read’ the research that you refer to, yet you make big claims about human behaviour. HOW MUCH MORE PSYCHOLOGICAL CAN YOU GET than human behaviour?
Posted by: Rick12, June 21, 2021, 5:34am; Reply: 56
To be honest mate, a disinterested reader could be forgiven for thinking you’re a fraud.
You claim not to be interested in psychology and cannot therefore remember where you ‘read’ the research that you refer to, yet you make big claims about human behaviour. HOW MUCH MORE PSYCHOLOGICAL CAN YOU GET than human behaviour?
Kingston Iam sad and surprised you think like that. Your going around in circles. You need to realise that situations in life sometimes push us in directions we don't want to go. Without going into specifics as noted I have suffered from acute problems which changed my trajectory. I've already told you this. I don't want to air my life history on a open forum. Even talking to people face to face I can't reveal everything as things hurt to much. Likewise I've realised you can't trust noone in life fully as none is pure.
As for the research the information came from a book from the crime section in the university library in case your wondering. Iam not Einstein and can't remember every specific bit of research I cited as part of my degree of which there were many ( 18 modules and well over 100 references which includes books and journals).
Posted by: codcheeky, June 21, 2021, 2:58pm; Reply: 57
Kingston Iam sad and surprised you think like that. Your going around in circles. You need to realise that situations in life sometimes push us in directions we don't want to go. Without going into specifics as noted I have suffered from acute problems which changed my trajectory. I've already told you this. I don't want to air my life history on a open forum. Even talking to people face to face I can't reveal everything as things hurt to much. Likewise I've realised you can't trust noone in life fully as none is pure.
As for the research the information came from a book from the crime section in the university library in case your wondering. Iam not Einstein and can't remember every specific bit of research I cited as part of my degree of which there were many ( 18 modules and well over 100 references which includes books and journals).
There are many experts as you say and not all of them say the same thing, indeed some are quite happy for a controversial view to give them publicity and notoriety . If you cannot remember the author of someone you wish to use in your argument it is perhaps not a surprise that people question it’s validity. It does on the surface appear to be a pretty bold statement of suggested racial stereotypes
Posted by: Rick12, June 21, 2021, 3:15pm; Reply: 58
There are many experts as you say and not all of them say the same thing, indeed some are quite happy for a controversial view to give them publicity and notoriety . If you cannot remember the author of someone you wish to use in your argument it is perhaps not a surprise that people question it’s validity. It does on the surface appear to be a pretty bold statement of suggested racial stereotypes
Codcheeky some fair points but I can swear on my family's life the research was legitimate. Aren't you assuming things as well and possibly stereotyping me just because Iam pro army and police ?. Most people I feel in both services are good people who are trying to an essential job in often very difficult circumstances. As for on the surface appearing to be a bold statement of racial stereotypes I find that difficult to understand. No way did the book pinpoint any races in particular but was an attempt as noted to understand crime and children from various angles both biologically and from an environmental one as well.
Posted by: Rick12, June 21, 2021, 3:37pm; Reply: 59
It does on the surface appear to be a pretty bold statement of suggested racial stereotypes
Incidentally I know what it's like to be stereotyped and how frustrating and angry this can make one feel. I had a tattoo for example when younger and hate it. I had it done in my teens when I was disturbed as I was going through a lot of stuff. Iam in the process of looking at getting it removed .When some see you in the swimming pool or at the sea you can tell your being judged negativley. You want to put them in my shoes from day one and then judge me. Some people don't have a clue about life. I've heard similar from homeless people who are on the streets due to suffering a breakdown eg loosing a child which depresses them and then can't cope and loose their job and house. Some on the street I've read from Salvation army pamphlets are judged negativley and all they want is a bit of love and kindness . Wish more people in life showed this as thus the world would be a far more beautiful place.
Incidentally I know what it's like to be stereotyped and how frustrating and angry this can make one feel. I had a tattoo for example when younger and hate it. I had it done in my teens when I was disturbed as I was going through a lot of stuff. Iam in the process of looking at getting it removed .When some see you in the swimming pool or at the sea you can tell your being judged negativley. You want to put them in my shoes from day one and then judge me. Some people don't have a clue about life. I've heard similar from homeless people who are on the streets due to suffering a breakdown eg loosing a child which depresses them and then can't cope and loose their job and house. Some on the street I've read from Salvation army pamphlets are judged negativley and all they want is a bit of love and kindness . Wish more people in life showed this as thus the world would be a far more beautiful place.
A truthful post earns you a gold star. I failed to see why you got any red crosses.
Posted by: Rick12, June 21, 2021, 7:45pm; Reply: 61
A truthful post earns you a gold star. I failed to see why you got any red crosses. B.
DB thanks once again. God bless your soul my friend.
Posted by: DB, June 21, 2021, 7:54pm; Reply: 62
As many know I believe in Jesus Christ and to that end I know many scriptures. I have read what has been posted about Rick and the information he has gleaned over time in pursuit of his degree.
I am fortunate that I can refer to my Holy Bible if somebody wants chapter and verse. Unfortunately for Rick, as he explains, he has seen volumes of books whose titles may now evade him. It does not mean that what he posts is not accurate.
On a personal note, I obtained a Goods Vehicle Operators Licence several years ago. To pass I had to know how to transport animals, dangerous goods, heavy earth moving equipment, bulk liquids including hazardous liquids etc. Do I remember any of it now in detail?, no but I do remember bits and pieces and that is what Rick remembers. The bits to help us understand his posts.
Posted by: ska face, June 23, 2021, 12:52pm; Reply: 63
Tweet 1407652650930343940 will appear here...
So, did this man kill Dalian Atkinson because he’s not wired up right, had a bad upbringing, or because he is in a position to do so with an underlying culture which deems this kind of action par for the course?
Posted by: Rick12, June 23, 2021, 2:38pm; Reply: 64
So, did this man kill Dalian Atkinson because he’s not wired up right, had a bad upbringing, or because he is in a position to do so with an underlying culture which deems this kind of action par for the course?
Because Ska face admittedly some police do abuse their authority . Its the same in any walk of life eg you get bad apples .Ive seen it myself when I worked in a special needs school as a volunteer. One teacher in particular had very little empathy and was cold . Police is a difficult job though as stated . Your constantly dealing with law breakers and have to know when to use appropriate force which restrains and defends oneself.
Someone told me about this story today which further highlights the difficult job police put themselves under. 2 suspected drug dealers held down a policeperson trying to make a arrest and tried to cut his throat. Shows how dangerous the job is.
Incidentally I was in Sheffield yesterday in the town centre and there were a fair amount of homeless/drugs people in the city centre which surprised me. I saw police making a arrest on one such individual who tried to run away from them. To be fair to them they dealt with the incident well.
Posted by: ska face, June 23, 2021, 4:28pm; Reply: 65
You might get a bit further if you finish the ‘bad apples’ idiom. It isn’t “there are a few bad apples, the rest are still really good”.
You might get a bit further if you finish the ‘bad apples’ idiom. It isn’t “there are a few bad apples, the rest are still really good”.
I have been a supporter of the police in the past but my support has been eroded for many reasons. So to that end I would amend your above idiom to 'there are a few good apples but the rest are rotten'.
Posted by: Rick12, June 23, 2021, 10:21pm; Reply: 67
You might get a bit further if you finish the ‘bad apples’ idiom. It isn’t “there are a few bad apples, the rest are still really good”.
Yes you nearly took the words out of my mouth. I would like to believe most police are good and some really good. Perhaps if you feel so concerned about the police why not try joining up and make a difference. As a young adult Ive had a fair few encounters with the police both here and abroad and some are very decent people . I admit you do get some that abuse their authority though and Ive been a victim of that as well.
Yes you nearly took the words out of my mouth. I would like to believe most police are good and some really good. Perhaps if you feel so concerned about the police why not try joining up and make a difference. As a young adult Ive had a fair few encounters with the police both here and abroad and some are very decent people . I admit you do get some that abuse their authority though and Ive been a victim of that as well.
Surprised and saddened to hear that DB.
I do believe in law and order, it's just the way it's managed.
The Dalian Atkinson trial doesn't help matters either. To cut a story short I met a policeman's brother in law (ex-car salesman), who told me he joined the police for a reliable wage and pension. He asked him what he did when trouble broke out 'always make sure I'm at the back of the queue'. Destroys your faith in them a little.
That and many more snippets gradually erodes your faith in them, top it up with Hillsborough, other lies etc. I'm sure there are people in the police who do it because they care for people but I think they are few and far between . I suspect that most are career policemen or in it for the pension.
Posted by: aldi_01, June 26, 2021, 6:42am; Reply: 69
I do believe in law and order, it's just the way it's managed.
The Dalian Atkinson trial doesn't help matters either. To cut a story short I met a policeman's brother in law (ex-car salesman), who told me he joined the police for a reliable wage and pension. He asked him what he did when trouble broke out 'always make sure I'm at the back of the queue'. Destroys your faith in them a little.
That and many more snippets gradually erodes your faith in them, top it up with Hillsborough, other lies etc. I'm sure there are people in the police who do it because they care for people but I think they are few and far between . I suspect that most are career policemen or in it for the pension.
The back of the queue comment is interesting; a colleague at work had an extremely successful career in the police but chose to leave becauee of careerists and folk joining up merely for a steady wage and pension rather than making a difference. He was caught out by the back of the queue types and was left exposed…he left.
He speaks fondly of his time in the police but often makes a quick sarcastic comment if there are stories etc in newspapers. He’s a chap with his eyes wide open and he’s certainly seen a fair fee for he bad apples too.
He does also talk about those that don’t hang around at the back and do their job diligently and with dignity. However, he has mentioned a few times those that ‘like a good ruck’…
Posted by: KingstonMariner, June 26, 2021, 9:49am; Reply: 70
Kingston Iam sad and surprised you think like that. Your going around in circles. You need to realise that situations in life sometimes push us in directions we don't want to go. Without going into specifics as noted I have suffered from acute problems which changed my trajectory. I've already told you this. I don't want to air my life history on a open forum. Even talking to people face to face I can't reveal everything as things hurt to much. Likewise I've realised you can't trust noone in life fully as none is pure.
As for the research the information came from a book from the crime section in the university library in case your wondering. Iam not Einstein and can't remember every specific bit of research I cited as part of my degree of which there were many ( 18 modules and well over 100 references which includes books and journals).
I’m not going round in circles! Show me where I am going round in circles.
If I was going to refer to some hypothesis that I believed in, and had strong opinions on, and use the fact I read it in a book once as back-up to my claims, I’d be at least able to remember the name. You’ve got a degree. You’re an intelligent person. It’s 37 years since I graduated and if I want to make a point about something that I strongly feel is true, I’d be able to remember where I read it. Crikey, these days there’s this thing which helps you find out information using a world wide network of computers. Comes in handy when there’s stuff I’m trying to recollect.
Posted by: Rick12, June 26, 2021, 10:09am; Reply: 71
If I was going to refer to some hypothesis that I believed in, and had strong opinions on, and use the fact I read it in a book once as back-up to my claims, I’d be at least able to remember the name. You’ve got a degree. You’re an intelligent person. It’s 37 years since I graduated and if I want to make a point about something that I strongly feel is true, I’d be able to remember where I read it. Crikey, these days there’s this thing which helps you find out information using a world wide network of computers. Comes in handy when there’s stuff I’m trying to recollect.
I've already tried to locate the book using the library's online catalogue but it's not there. Bear in mind that universitys regularly update their stock.
I have been a supporter of the police in the past but my support has been eroded for many reasons. So to that end I would amend your above idiom to 'there are a few good apples but the rest are rotten'.
These two BBC ( not sure how much is truth/fiction) sum my disillusionment with the police.
Thats sad to see DB but wish the media could pick out some of the good stories as well. I was told recently that to get into the police you now need a degree which can be seen as both a good and bad thing. Some people are not naturally academic and have other innate skills eg the ability to deal with people .Likewise doing a degree is quite challenging especially more so if your working at the same time .
What I would say is earlier you made a valid point .Some only go into it for the money and pension whilst others do it because they want to make a genuine difference. Its hard though to get the right people in as some of the stuff they have to deal with is horrible. From what I have been told this includes dealing with hangings and trying to resuscitate people who have just taken their lives, people threating to throw poo at them to name but a few. Added to that the shift and nights they do . Tough job indeed and I wouldnt like to do it.
Thats sad to see DB but wish the media could pick out some of the good stories as well. I was told recently that to get into the police you now need a degree which can be seen as both a good and bad thing. Some people are not naturally academic and have other innate skills eg the ability to deal with people .Likewise doing a degree is quite challenging especially more so if your working at the same time .
What I would say is earlier you made a valid point .Some only go into it for the money and pension whilst others do it because they want to make a genuine difference. Its hard though to get the right people in as some of the stuff they have to deal with is horrible. From what I have been told this includes dealing with hangings and trying to resuscitate people who have just taken their lives, people threating to throw poo at them to name but a few. Added to that the shift and nights they do . Tough job indeed and I wouldnt like to do it.
I agree with many things you say. But the police had total respect from the community, FULL STOP. Over the decades, many, career police moved into the police force to what we have now. Fully armed coppers charging around like the cavalry to deal with a knife suspect.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, July 17, 2021, 6:41pm; Reply: 75