Apparently we have appealed relegation which has been backed by Southend will be heard on 10th June.

I'm not very hopeful

https://www.echo-news.co.uk/sport/19285345.southend-united-chairman-ron-martin-feels-unfair-teams-relegated-league-two/?ref=rss

That’s some serious straw clutching...

Nah, we were rubbish all season, we deserve to go down to be honest. And if by some miracle we stayed up we’d have no right to call the likes of Stevenage who fortuitously stayed up themselves.

We was crap and deserved to go down football wise,, But its the shambles of a league set up that is the problem

How come our new owners didn’t mention this or did they . did I miss it ?

Suspect this was submitted prior to them taking over. Fenty in his final interview mentioned how we’re in the conference ‘as things stand’, so they probably submitted it.

But do we really want to be that team who stayed up in that way? If we were on the other end of it and were Torquay or a Sutton, we’d feel cheated - it’s not their fault that there’s no relegation. Let’s just accept we’re in the conference and earn our way back the right way.

Not at all surprised about this, although not optimistic about success. There certainly have been some goings on at National League levels which need to be scrutinised

Grimbsy.....

It seems it was our idea. Something I saw yesterday was a comment along the lines of we are in the NL “as it stands”

🤔🤔🤔

This is desperate in the extreme. I am not a fan of it at all. We were awful and the league table doesn’t lie. We got what we deserved and we must take it on the chin and accept it, not look for a loop hole to escape it.

The integrity of football has been discussed at length over recent weeks and this is simply not right.

Agree on the pitch we deserve to be regelated, I know these are are difficult circumstances.

But to be relegated, to a league thats not really a competition this season, smaller clubs having to furloughed players, clubs being threaten to play, is wrong. The National League is penalising 16 clubs with fines and points deductions.
Without relegation from the National league, it breaks its own rules.

Below are just a few statements from clubs struggling, being forced to carry on or penalised, due to Covid-19.

Statement from Barnets Chairman

"In January, the government suddenly withdrew its very generous grant support which was the only thing propping up most Clubs. A vote was called by the NL whether to end the season and the government introduced a loan backed survival fund in return for Clubs to finish the season. The North and South Clubs decided to end the season anyway whilst the NL Clubs voted to continue subject to receiving these government loans to cover their losses.[/b] The proposed loans were against the NL rules so in order for these to be considered the League agreed to extinguish relegation as it would not be fair for a Club without a loan to be relegated playing against teams propped up by the government funding."

"Today our results are not important as the outcome will be the same whether we are 8th or 24th. What really matters is that we properly use this time to plan and put everything in place for a big push next season".

Statement from Dover

"Dover Athletic to appeal after National League expunges their season for failing to fulfil fixtures during pandemic

Dover say they have been "hung out to dry" by the National League after they were one of 16 teams across three divisions punished for failing to fulfil fixtures this season due to the financial impact of coronavirus

By Lyall Thomas

Friday 26 March 2021 22:49, UK

The National League received £10m from the DCMS to allow the season to start back in October, but that has now run out

Dover Athletic say they have been "hung out to dry" by the National League after their season was expunged for failing to fulfil their fixtures amid the coronavirus pandemic.

The division's bottom side, who have only played 15 times this season compared to at least 25 by the rest, will play no further part in the current campaign and have seen their results wiped out.

They have also been handed a 12-point deduction to start with next season and a £40,000 fine for being in breach of league rules.

These are the findings of an independent panel commissioned by the League, who have also handed suspended points penalties to 16 clubs in tier two for not fulfilling fixtures, as well as punishing Kings Lynn and Southport for breaching coronavirus protocols.

Dover and the others were deemed to have not had "just cause" to miss fixtures since the turn of the year, after the cessation of grants led to a financial crisis at numerous clubs.

The Kent club have told Sky Sports News they will appeal to the Football Association, and have also confirmed they are seeking legal advice.

Dover's owner and chairman Jim Parmenter told SSN: "We believe we demonstrated just cause, backed up by lawyers and insolvency practitioners, but I don't think the league has taken that into account and they haven't explained why they have deemed us not to have just cause.

"We have been hung out to dry and made an example of to the rest of the league with this draconian punishment. They are trying to implement a rule book that is not designed to deal with issues like a pandemic.

"We've stuck our necks out while there are seven or eight other clubs in a similar situation scared stiff of the type of action the league has taken against us.

"We have demonstrated we cannot afford to continue, nor finance a loan, so how does issuing us with a £40,000 fine help football?"

The National League's statement said: "The panel had regard to financial information provided by Dover Athletic and fully respected the responsibility of the club's directors under company law. However, the panel also had to consider the integrity of the competition and the actions of Dover in relation to the other 22 Clubs that continue to incur much costs as they fulfill their fixtures.

"In view of the current financial situation and in order to reflect the approach taken in other cases of breaches of rule 8.39, the independent panel reduced the initial fine by 20 per cent to £40,000."

Dulwich Hamlet were one of the National League South clubs to have been given a suspended points deduction and a fine for failing to complete fixtures in a season that has already been declared null and void, and the club said on Twitter: "Well, we're not quite sure what to say about this one.

"DHFC have been fined £8,000 and given a suspended eight-point deduction for failure to fulfil fixtures when the funded stopped and we were awaiting the decision to null and void the season. Thanks, Vanarama National League."

The League statement continued: "Given the extremely unusual circumstances that have affected football at all levels and the financial pressures the absence of spectators has brought to bear on clubs, the panel expressed its sympathy with the clubs' predicament.

"However, the panel believes it must also take regard of the fact that the majority of clubs continued to fulfil fixtures and incur much costs until the League ended on February 19."

Bath City were another club fined and issued a suspended points penalty and they said they are "disappointed to learn of the verdict handed out by the National League... and the fact that it has seen fit to hand out fines at a time when we and other clubs are fighting for survival in the face of the financial impacts of Covid-19."

King's Lynn  take on the National League

King's Lynn boss on National League crisis: “Why are we playing for the sake of Notts County or Torquay to go up?
By Greg Plummer -
greg.plummer@iliffepublishing.co.uk
Published: 06:00, 24 February 2021

Ian Culverhouse has slammed the National League and accused them of 'holding a gun to the heads' of clubs by forcing unfair financial pressure on them.

The King's Lynn Town boss believes the governing body is wrong to threaten club's who can't continue their campaigns with demotion.

Lynn could be the next club to shut up shop because of the severe financial implications of playing matches behind closed doors.

Dover Athletic called time on their season a week ago and are already facing FA charges for failing to fulfil fixtures – a retribution which could lead to heavy fines, a points deduction or demotion.

The Linnets could be the next ones in the dock if they follow suit after Saturday’s home game against Weymouth and Culverhouse feels the punishments are unjust as the club fights for its very survival.

“I think it would be an absolute disgrace if they punish teams in that way,” he said following the 5-1 home thrashing of Barnet on Tuesday night.

“They are holding a gun to the heads of clubs – it is not fair. If clubs can’t continue then why are you doing that? You’re threatening them with demotion? That’s poor, very poor.”

“At the moment it seems like they are trying to make us play for the promotion and that’s not fair on the people that can’t.

“Why are we playing for the sake of Notts County or Torquay to go up? I don’t get it. I think the communication between the league and the clubs is poor.”[b]

Step one clubs voted to continue the campaign last week and club owner Stephen Cleeve admitted that he might be forced to shut the club with no fans – and very little income – coming through the turnstiles.

Relegation from and promotion to non-league's top flight is set to be scrapped – leaving the door open for sides towards the top to battle it out for a place in the English Football League.

Culverhouse used Lynn's blank Saturday to discuss the critical situation with his players before watching them turn on the style with their best performance of the season against the Bees.

“We had a chat when we were in on Saturday and we just said, ‘let’s control what we can control’," he revealed.

"We can control things out on the pitch, that is what we are in charge of. We can’t control all the other stuff. We’ll let them get on with it and what will be, will be.

"But like I have said before, it is very hard for a single owner to keep putting his hand in his pocket when he has no income coming in and the thing we have to bear in mind is this football club has to survive.

“We have been down this road before and it took us a long time to come back and now we have got to make sure we secure the future of this football club.

“We need to be thinking along those lines rather than can we carry it on. It is important we look after this football club."

Wealdstone -  Update from chairman - 22/2/21

"I wanted to provide an update to fans on the current playing and financial situation given the continued uncertainty and the decision for the National League to continue.

As recently communicated, the club has now gone almost 2 months without any meaningful revenue whilst continuing to incur a full level of operating costs and we have applied to the DCMS for funding however unless this is in the form of a grant the club is facing some extremely difficult decisions to protect our financial viability.

We firmly believe that companies should only take loans either to fund working capital or because the loan is part of a pathway to future profitability. Taking a loan to cover operating costs without the reasonable expectation of future profits to make repayments is not considered an appropriate course of action by the Board, and is arguably reckless.

The club appears to have 3 main options regarding the remainder of the season.

1. Continue the season with the current playing squad, funded by incurring substantial loans which will have a highly damaging impact on the financial position of the club.

2. Explore furloughing the entire first team squad and field a team made up of players available at little or no cost to the club. Under this scenario, we will continue to incur costs relating to training, pitch maintenance, away travel, hosting matches etc. however our overall cost base will be reduced

3. Seek permission from the National League not to fulfil our remaining fixtures on the basis of protecting the future of one of its member clubs. To even consider this we would require clear guidance from the National League as to any consequences of this approach.

We understand that a number of other clubs are contemplating options 2 & 3 however as a proud club and founder member of the National League in its original guise of the Alliance Premier League, options 2 and 3 are hugely unpalatable to us, however unlike option 1, they do not risk the future of the club in its current form. Options 2 and 3 also clearly impact the sporting integrity of non-league footballs top tier, especially if this approach is taken by a number of clubs.

Regrettably we have already had to furloughed a small number of players simply because we cannot continue to maintain a full playing squad with little or no income. The consequence of operating without what we consider to be an appropriate squad size means that the use of rotation to protect our players becomes much harder and puts our players at risk of injury and fatigue.

Decision making in the current environment is incredibly difficult, and at times, feels almost impossible given the lack of clarity and the changing landscape. Having returned to the National League for the first time in 32 years this season, one of our principal aims was to ensure we maintained our status for next season. We are awaiting clarification as to what impact the decision to null and void the National League North and South divisions will have in relation to relegation from the top division.

...Both new  and old owners ,all  failed to mention an appeal is in place  , think it should have been declared. Makes us look daft .. wouldn’t back the appeal

Why not, I think we have a case.

We should just show them a picture of our old manager (Holloway) and they'll probably promote us to the Championship out of sympathy.

I'd imagine this is the reason Philip Day is hanging around. His legal background and the fact that he's probably been leading on this up to now.

whilst we maybe have a case, its cluching at straws


We went down as deserved. Would i be grateful if a repireve was granted? of course, but we are where we are by our own decisions

Promote, don't relegate. 26 team league 2 for one season and 21 team conference to start their season later given that it extends into June this season. Can't see it but...

I have been expecting this for months, I suspect the new owners have done some due-diligence, and taken legal advice, which I would personally expect them to do in the interests of the club.  If nothing else some light needs to be shined on the whole National League scandal, and lets be honest there has been no comment from the EFL to date, which I think shows a complete lack of leadership from them.  This will at least force a conversation.

Prior to this, the club clearly wouldn't have acknowledged this in public, as it doesn't show much confidence in the Team and the Manager.

Ultimately we have been terrible this year as a football club, but there are wider considerations around the league we are to be relegated into, which appears to be as badly administered as how our club has been.  You could say a perfect match... However its the fans that suffer as we know.

There was no detail in the newspaper article, however I would envisage, there will be an angle to this, more then it is "simply unfair".  Glad to see we are taking the lead on something that is important and asking relevant questions.

Quite right too. The EFL should have stepped in the minute relegation was scrapped from the NL which has made a mockery of that league this year. Surely the EFL has a duty of care to its members?

They should find a clever way of promoting the NL teams whilst at the same time not relegating teams from the EFL till we get normality back.

Can't we have two extra teams in league 2 next season, then have 3 down in subsequent seasons till it rebalances?

As much as I would love us to retain our place in the league it all feels wrong, we were one of the two worst clubs in the division and if we hadn’t been in the bottom two and any other had been trying this I think we would be complaining it’s not right.

It's a bit of double edged sword.

NL wants promotion without relegation. They announced this without FA approval, which is something that is needed.

EFL says if you're not having relegation, then why should we. How can the FA approve it for you but not for us.

But then L2 wants promotion without relegation, which is the same thing they're saying NL shouldn't have. I guess the big difference is that L2 and L1 are both part of the same organisation.

I think the EFL guidelines of not relegating teams without a guaranteed league to play in is the more realistic path. If Covid has another wave and fans aren't allowed in, there's no money and more teams will be unable to play, hence we don't have a guaranteed league to play in.

Quoted from Grimsbynewhope

As much as I would love us to retain our place in the league it all feels wrong, we were one of the two worst clubs in the division and if we hadn’t been in the bottom two and any other had been trying this I think we would be complaining it’s not right.

Nobody is doubting we deserve to go down on the pitch, but this is about the league below changing their rules halfway through the season and making their season a mockery. Clubs should not be taking our place in the EFL that have achieved promotion by playing teams who did not give a hoot if they won or lost because they could not be relegated.

It will no doubt be rejected,  but a huge stink should have been made as soon as the NL stopped relegation.  

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

Quite right too. The EFL should have stepped in the minute relegation was scrapped from the NL which has made a mockery of that league this year. Surely the EFL has a duty of care to its members?

They should find a clever way of promoting the NL teams whilst at the same time not relegating teams from the EFL till we get normality back.

Can't we have two extra teams in league 2 next season, then have 3 down in subsequent seasons till it rebalances?

In theory you could, although a 26 team league would equate to a 50 game season which I’m not sure has been done anywhere else in the world before. There’s the argument that an additional two home games would be advantageous for financially starved League Two clubs, but it is a relatively thin argument and would of course have an inverse effect on the National League.

As others have said, this is very much clutching at straws. However, surely we are duty bound to at least have a go? These are exceptional circumstances, the National League is a financial basket case and only last season Stevenage were reprieved from relegation, so precedents exist.

Personally, I think this has a <5% chance of succeeding, but on the assumption it’s not going to cost us tens of thousands to find out it seems only right that we give it a go.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

Nobody is doubting we deserve to go down on the pitch, but this is about the league below changing their rules halfway through the season and making their season a mockery. Clubs should not be taking our place in the EFL that have achieved promotion by playing teams who did not give a hoot if they won or lost because they could not be relegated.

It will no doubt be rejected,  but a huge stink should have been made as soon as the NL stopped relegation.  

That's the big problem that I see. Why didn't the clubs complain about this straight away? I guess they didn't know clubs were going to furlough their players and carry on playing, but it seems like a desperate last attempt.

I don't understand why the EFL took such a passive stance on this at the start. Their job is to represent the league club's interests and they should have said in the build up to the vote that it wasn't a fair situation so promotion would have to be considered. I bet the vote would have turned out differently had NL clubs known the potential of no promotion was on the table.

Quoted from pen penfras

That's the big problem that I see. Why didn't the clubs complain about this straight away? I guess they didn't know clubs were going to furlough their players and carry on playing, but it seems like a desperate last attempt.

I don't understand why the EFL took such a passive stance on this at the start. Their job is to represent the league club's interests and they should have said in the build up to the vote that it wasn't a fair situation so promotion would have to be considered. I bet the vote would have turned out differently had NL clubs known the potential of no promotion was on the table.

It hardly inspires confidence in your Team and Manager and secondly that seems a bit proactive for Mr Fenty... to be fair "no win no fee" services are sometimes swamped with cases ;-)

The NL knew during the season what the rules were (no relegation).   It is difficult to argue successfully, I think, to change the rules retrospectively.   Of course Grimsby and Southend have a strong vested interest.

The appeal would have had more weight if the majority of EFL clubs had voted for "no relegation" earlier in the season.  (I know technically the season is not quite over).

Maybe on a lighter note, if Man United were so influential in setting up the EPL, they might also use their considerable influence to support this appeal.  After all, to have your ground record held by a NL club once is an embarrassment.   To have it happen twice is well........................

One (tenuous) argument could be that why should the EFL sent 2 of its clubs down to NL when the NL are not relegating clubs?  This is manifestly unfair and inconsistent.  Against nature justice and fair play.

The impact of Covid has been devastating and unforeseen. Why not just write-off the season for Div 2 and NL clubs are start afresh?   NL clubs have nearly all voted for this option.  

Legally maybe you could argue other points that address unfairness, even on a completely different tack:
That Grimsby and Southend have an unfair advantage for next season.  We have a longer summer break to rest players, more time to prepare for next season and able to recruit at an earlier stage, and knowing our budget and what division we will be in.  We will have more funding that the majority of clubs, who nearly bankrupted themselves just to keep playing.

I hope we all enjoyed our one and a bit days of not being a total joke club.

And why is our destiny based on a vote that we were not even involved in.

The NL is a complete shambles and has lost its integrity.

We were by some margin the worst team in the league and deserve to go down.

I don't know how you reconcile these two facts.

Quoted from Poojah

However, surely we are duty bound to at least have a go? These are exceptional circumstances, the National League is a financial basket case and only last season Stevenage were reprieved from relegation, so precedents exist.

Personally, I think this has a <5% chance of succeeding, but on the assumption it’s not going to cost us tens of thousands to find out it seems only right that we give it a go.

Completely agree with this. Whichever clubs finished as the bottom two in this weirdest of years were bound to question the legitimacy of relegation. I don't think anybody is really expecting anything to come of it but if you were in Stockwood/Petitt's shoes of course you'd at least ask the question.

While I can understand the reasoning for exploring the issue, I can't pretend to agree with it. We can have all the concerns we want about the governance of the National League. But they don't alter the fact we have not been good enough to preserve Football League status over the course of a season.

Ron Martin argues that it is "unfair" to relegate us and Southend on the basis that there is no relegation from the National League. That seems a reasonable argument at face value, but it overlooks two key issues. First, a majority of National League North and South clubs voted to void their seasons (a decision which has since been ratified by the FA). At the point that vote was taken, less than half of their fixtures had been completed. If it is unfair to relegate teams from League 2 to the National League, then surely it would be an absolute travesty to relegate teams from the National League to divisions below where so few fixtures were completed.

Second, this is a very different situation from the one a year ago. Leaving aside the points deductions which ultimately relegated Macclesfield, relegation from League 2 was only on hold for as long as it took to resolve the questions of whether the National League would be voided or adopt a PPG model and whether or not promotion and relegation issues could be decided. There is no such issue this time around and, therefore, I don't think an appeal would have a remote possibility of succeeding.

I see that Mr Stockwood has made a comment on the matter to the Telegraph this morning which suggests that he and Mr Pettit were aware the issue was being explored, but that they don't expect anything to come of it. I think that is the most sensible way to approach it.

There’s not one of us who would not accept staying in the league, however stinky in the way it might happen.

What would happen to us if we go down but because of the shambles and litigation the National League goes bust halfway through the season? We would be left with no league to play in and no chance of getting back into the league.

Quoted from Theimperialcoroner

There’s not one of us who would not accept staying in the league, however stinky in the way it might happen.

Actually you're wrong.
If its a case of us or them then I say we should rightfullly go down.
Iie if Torquay win the NL they come up, we go down. If there is a way we can stay up without them being effected then I say YES PLEASE!

Quoted from lukeo

Actually you're wrong.
If its a case of us or them then I say we should rightfullly go down.
Iie if Torquay win the NL they come up, we go down. If there is a way we can stay up without them being effected then I say YES PLEASE!

There's absolutely no way that any scenario here can end without promotion from the National League. Club's voted to continue and accrue costs on the basis that they could be promoted; reneging on that would rightly and vehemently be challenged legally, with a successful outcome I would imagine. But no one's going to play that card.

The only argument to be had is that it is unjust to relegate clubs into a division which has issues over both its stability and integrity, given that there is to be no relegation for clubs in that league this season. It's a very thin argument, and one I don't expect to be successful, but in the highly unlikely event that it were come to pass it would be effectively 'victimless'. Except, perhaps, for whoever finishes third bottom over the course of the next two seasons, which is one area where the proposed 'solution' already starts to unravel.

Quoted from marinerdazza

The NL is a complete shambles and has lost its integrity.

We were by some margin the worst team in the league and deserve to go down.

I don't know how you reconcile these two facts.

This is the problem, in a nutshell. Just because we're challenging the EFL and NL, and asking the question, it doesn't mean we're claiming that we don't deserve to go down. I'm sure both Grimsby and Southend will hold their hands up and say, based on football results, we are the two worst clubs and so deserve to finish 23rd and 24th.

But do we deserve to be relegated into a division that has potentially broken its own rules, and whose integrity has been called into serious question? That's the argument.

I don't like the idea of us staying up on a technicality, or whatever you want to call it, and be known like Stevenage as benefiting from a reprieve. I don't think any of us are comfortable with that.

But let's say we are successful, and that means Torquay, Sutton or whoever can't come up. Those clubs, and their fans, shouldn't be directing any frustration at us and Southend; it should be 100% at the competition, which allowed a situation to evolve that should never have happened. It's all on the NL board (and maybe a bit on the EFL, who should have sought more clarity at what it would mean for the bottom two of the 72.

Anyway, let me reiterate - I don't feel entirely comfortable about the idea of benefiting from this appeal, and I fully acknowledge that we deserve to be relegated on results.

Best case scenario - we win the case, stay up, but feel a bit awkward about it.

Worst case - we lose the case, start next season in the NL, which is still governed by idiots.

Nah - it won't happen.
Safend & Us were the 2 worst teams over the season.
Bite the bullet & accept the situation - fair & square.
Start now to prepare for next season in the NL with the feel good factor most of us now have.

Embaressing!

They need to tell us what's going on here. It this is a result of the old regime, fair enough. If it's the new owners though, they need to explain this decision surely? We don't even know if this is true yet, do we?

This problem started months ago by us and the NL. Our problem was we failed to get enough points to stay up and on merit should go down under a normal situation.

The NL problem was and still is they started to run a two-tier National League when they announced no relegation. There became no incentive, whatsoever, for teams in the lower half to perform well on the pitch. Win or lose they were going nowhere and became bullied by the NL board to fulfil the fixture list.

Teams at the top have spent to try to get promotion and you have to wonder what their finances will be like next year if they don't get promoted. The NL this year is a mockery of bad governance and the FA should tell them that. Likewise, the EFL should also get to grips with the NL and tell them no promotion this year you bend your own rules too much.

I'm on the fence with this one.

I see both sides of the arugments.

We have been poor most of the season. We are lucky to have the finances to compete in the National League as opposed to a lot of clubs down there.

On the other side, it can be seen as unfair for NL to have no relegations yet allow promotions.

Again, the counter arguement to that would be that promotions from league to should also be banned...

However. It should be based on whether a club finantially depends on staying up, to which we do not... Currently...

The only issue i have would be that of furloughing players so they could bring other players in. I know Chesterfield have done this but am unsure how many other clubs have (EFL or NL). It seems wrong to be able to do this (similar to making someone redundant and then employing someone else to do the same job).
Then theres the vote of no confidence by the NL clubs themselves and how that pans out.
What a strange old season its been

No issue with relegation on merit, come to terms with the fact we're looking at second spell in the fifth tier.

But I do have an issue with going into a league that won't be able to guarantee we've got fixtures to play.  The NL, through their own incompetence, have put clubs in a position where they're even more financially vulnerable.  Clubs were on their bottom at the beginning of this season and the NL went about saddling them with more financial burden, against their will.  They then held the gun to the heads of these teams to complete fixtures.  

That league will start with at most 23 teams next season.  I would be very confident that there will be at least one of those sides that goes to the wall within 12 months, such is the financial peril they're in.  I'm also realistic to expect that we're going to see further spikes in infection rates, arguably sooner rather than later.  The country has opened up and will continue to open up facilities that are frequented (in the majority) by people who have not had yet even their first vaccine.  A spike is inevitable.  With another spike comes further restrictions.  

Further restrictions means fans will be shut out from games again.    No fans means even more financial hardship for teams at the level without a TV deal and/or a fan base capable of supporting it by other means.  The National League is in ruin.

The Football League has a duty to make sure that anyone relegated from their league goes into a league that can guarantee a spot in a proper league.   The only thing the Conference could offer us and Southend as a guarantee is protection on our income should their season not complete.  Financially I don't think they're in a position to do that.  Don't be surprised if the legal challenge put to the EFL sees us (and Southend) remain in this league.  

Equally so a very strong challenge will be put to the EFL and NL by those teams who have won promotion.  There will be no justifiable grounds for denying entry so the FL will have to admit too.  

I wouldn't at all be surprised to see the aforementioned 26 team league next season.  For the embarrassment this may cause initially, I think once we see the National League implode relatively early we may well be grateful this route was taken...

I'm sure Stevenage are really dead embarrassed about finishing 23rd and not getting relegated last season.

Basically: yes, we deserve to be relegated, and if that's what happens then i'm fine with it, but if we get to stay up via some legal nonsense then cool, excellent, lovely stuff.

The vitriol on here if this was a premier league club trying this would be off the chart.

‘Greed!’ ‘no integrity’, ‘bullies’, ‘who do they think they are?’ etc etc...

How quick some are to adjust their moral compass when they, as an extension of the club stand to benefit.

Poor form in my book!

Quoted from Sandford1981

The vitriol on here if this was a premier league club trying this would be off the chart.

‘Greed!’ ‘no integrity’, ‘bullies’, ‘who do they think they are?’ etc etc...

How quick some are to adjust their moral compass when they, as an extension of the club stand to benefit.

Poor form in my book!

"No integrity" are you referring to the NL?  Not sure how you can compare this situation with the Premier League.. :-/

We're down because over 46 games split between two managers we just haven't been good enough , would we really be proud of ourselves staying up this way , not for me i'd rather hit the ground running nxt season with a massive advantage on our main rivals who's season runs well into june , don't want to hear any excuses whatsoever top 3 & challenging for xmas or cheeerrrioo

I'm surprised this didn't crop up around the time that the NL vote happened.  Surely we would have had broader support from other clubs in the lower half of L2, instead of now being realistically one of just 2 clubs who have any appetite to take this further?  Doesn't look good that we're taking this action only after we know that we're a net loser; it's unlikely to make us any friends, that's for sure.

The one question I would be asking is: can the National League guarantee funding for the completion of next season's fixtures should matches need to be completed behind closed doors again?  If not, I would be arguing that it would be improper to admit us to a league that can provide no assurances of a full season of funding, which would be against the EFL's rules.  In any event, I can't see this going anywhere and I can't wait to wake up next season, with a new GTFC, pretending that this wretched soiled nappy of a year never happened.

Quoted from Azimuth

Embaressing!

Apart from your spelling, why do you think that?

This is a legal matter or should be. The NL are the ones who are at fault - they have changed the rules of the competition part way through a season. Whoever gets promotion from that division will have benefited from playing sides who knew win lose or draw they would not get relegated, whilst we have had to fight for every single point.

It is well worth an appeal.

anybody heard  what fine and point deduction Man Utd have had by not fulfilling a league fixture on the scheduled date, also  pitch invasion etc.
whether  you agree with the fans action or not , they still broke the rules. How quite the premiership/ FA  have been  on this. one law for.........

Quoted from MarshMariner

"No integrity" are you referring to the NL?  Not sure how you can compare this situation with the Premier League.. :-/

A lack of integrity is a lack of integrity irrespective of context but, I’m surmising with confidence that the reaction on here would be indignation in judgement of others trying to do the same as we are.

My view is that its not right for that reason.

I understand others will be perfectly happy to accept favour no matter how it comes but it’s not for me.

I think it's the wrong argument. We should be pushing for 3 up 3 down in League 2, not 4 up and 2 down. The National League is now a League 3 in all but name, the League should expand to absorb it, and have a 96 team FL.

Shame it wasn't 3 down this year otherwise Scunny would probably have joined us on the subterranean journey.

Quoted from Sandford1981

A lack of integrity is a lack of integrity irrespective of context but, I’m surmising with confidence that the reaction on here would be indignation in judgement of others trying to do the same as we are.

My view is that its not right for that reason.

I understand others will be perfectly happy to accept favour no matter how it comes but it’s not for me.

I understand your reservations about this, but I think DHM expressed the situation very well in his two posts above.

In short, the legal challenge would be that the FL have a covenant not to relegate teams if there isn’t a viable league for those clubs to play in. This comes from the agreement with the non-League organisation to have automatic relegation and promotion.

The NL on their side also have an obligation to provide a guaranteed, viable competition. They might not be able to fulfill this obligation.

The shaky financial situation of NL clubs means that they are much less resilient to a new shock, be it third/4th wave of Covid19, some new virus or something else.

Then there are the genuine question marks over the fitness of the NL board to run the competition given the way they handled communications regarding the government assistance.

Quoted from GrimRob

I think it's the wrong argument. We should be pushing for 3 up 3 down in League 2, not 4 up and 2 down. The National League is now a League 3 in all but name, the League should expand to absorb it, and have a 96 team FL.

Shame it wasn't 3 down this year otherwise Scunny would probably have joined us on the subterranean journey.

That's a great idea, but where's the extra TV money for L3 going to come from? L2 clubs get around £475,000 a season.

And are the PL going to expand their solidarity payments to cover another division?

Quoted from MarinerDevil

I'm surprised this didn't crop up around the time that the NL vote happened.  Surely we would have had broader support from other clubs in the lower half of L2, instead of now being realistically one of just 2 clubs who have any appetite to take this further?  Doesn't look good that we're taking this action only after we know that we're a net loser; it's unlikely to make us any friends, that's for sure.

The one question I would be asking is: can the National League guarantee funding for the completion of next season's fixtures should matches need to be completed behind closed doors again?  If not, I would be arguing that it would be improper to admit us to a league that can provide no assurances of a full season of funding, which would be against the EFL's rules.  In any event, I can't see this going anywhere and I can't wait to wake up next season, with a new GTFC, pretending that this wretched soiled nappy of a year never happened.

This is the issue.

Quoted from DocDock

Nah, we were rubbish all season, we deserve to go down to be honest. And if by some miracle we stayed up we’d have no right to call the likes of Stevenage who fortuitously stayed up themselves.

Absolutely.


If true and if it fails we will be the laughing stock not only of the EFL but the National League.

It will all pan out  with after Town finish bottom .....  arguments will be made and the following compromise  will be announced

Due to 1 club  refusing to fulfil fixtures in the the NL then 1 promotion place will be rescinded

But  the EFL could not justify failing to reward the Champions of the NL

So Southend stay up  and Town go down  !!!


Thats a Town Life

Quoted from KingstonMariner

I understand your reservations about this, but I think DHM expressed the situation very well in his two posts above.

In short, the legal challenge would be that the FL have a covenant not to relegate teams if there isn’t a viable league for those clubs to play in. This comes from the agreement with the non-League organisation to have automatic relegation and promotion.

The NL on their side also have an obligation to provide a guaranteed, viable competition. They might not be able to fulfill this obligation.

The shaky financial situation of NL clubs means that they are much less resilient to a new shock, be it third/4th wave of Covid19, some new virus or something else.

Then there are the genuine question marks over the fitness of the NL board to run the competition given the way they handled communications regarding the government assistance.

Looks like they are doing it this season so why not next when hopefully there wont be the problems all teams have had due to covid?

The simple fact is two managers have failed to keep us in the EFL, we deserve to go down as do two teams in the NL deserve to be promoted.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

I understand your reservations about this, but I think DHM expressed the situation very well in his two posts above.

In short, the legal challenge would be that the FL have a covenant not to relegate teams if there isn’t a viable league for those clubs to play in. This comes from the agreement with the non-League organisation to have automatic relegation and promotion.

The NL on their side also have an obligation to provide a guaranteed, viable competition. They might not be able to fulfill this obligation.

The shaky financial situation of NL clubs means that they are much less resilient to a new shock, be it third/4th wave of Covid19, some new virus or something else.

Then there are the genuine question marks over the fitness of the NL board to run the competition given the way they handled communications regarding the government assistance.

You’re working on the misconception I don’t understand the points raised. I do and as ever they’re more eloquently put than I could manage.
I just don’t agree with it, however you or anyone else dress it up.

Quoted from Sandford1981

You’re working on the misconception I don’t understand the points raised. I do and as ever they’re more eloquently put than I could manage.
I just don’t agree with it, however you or anyone else dress it up.

It’s not dressing it up.

Quoted from arryarryarry

Looks like they are doing it this season so why not next when hopefully there wont be the problems all teams have had due to covid?

The simple fact is two managers have failed to keep us in the EFL, we deserve to go down as do two teams in the NL deserve to be promoted.

Because the clubs in that division have been saddled with a load more debt. It won’t take much of a shock to bring the whole pack of cards down.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

Because the clubs in that division have been saddled with a load more debt. It won’t take much of a shock to bring the whole pack of cards down.

No one else to blame if we end up there. That's what you get for being a crap team.

Quoted from arryarryarry

No one else to blame if we end up there. That's what you get for being a crap team.

it is our fault 100%

but i dont blame the club for asking, explains why nodding dog Day is still here

No-one else to blame for relegation, I agree.

But we're not talking about relegation are we.  We're talking, in this instance, about having a league to go into.  A league that can actually ensure it gets completed.  

Make no mistake, the Conference and everything below it is absolutely teetering on the brink at present.  It's a neither a secure or safe league to be in.  If we're in that league and it completely collapses in October, December, February, at any point, we're absolutely screwed.  That's it.  We've no league to play in.  Even a curtailed season because too many clubs can't complete fixtures leaves us screwed.  

If you think we're going to be challenging relegation this season, whoever finishes 23rd/24th next season will damn well be contesting going into a league that will see a third of the teams give up during the season, another third playing youth team players because that's all they can afford and the further third clawing to get out the god forsaken place.  

Quoted from arryarryarry

No one else to blame if we end up there. That's what you get for being a crap team.

It’s not about blame. It’s about whether there is a secure league to go into.

Quoted from fishcake63

We're down because over 46 games split between two managers we just haven't been good enough , would we really be proud of ourselves staying up this way , not for me i'd rather hit the ground running nxt season with a massive advantage on our main rivals who's season runs well into june , don't want to hear any excuses whatsoever top 3 & challenging for xmas or cheeerrrioo

I have no problem being relegated, what I do have a problem is how the National League has been run, during Covid-19.

Changing the goal posts during the season, no relegation from National League, but you have promotion, which breaks the National league own rules.

First NL clubs were going to get grants, then that changed to loans, to which some clubs felt was not viable

Some clubs have furlough some of their players, while still playing games, this weakens these teams.

Clubs being threaten with points deduction and fines if they do not fulfil they fixtutres.

Dover have made a stance and stopped playing, but have 12 pts deduction next season plus £40,000 fine

Jim Parmenter - Dover Chairman : “I am in particular disagreement that the executive appears to be encouraging clubs to take large loans to complete the season, as I have said twice at board meetings I believe that the competition rules are being broken by allowing the proposed loans, let alone encouraging them. (Page 155 Appendices 08 of the rule book).

“The league has for ten years insisted that clubs manage their financial affairs prudently and has had great success and received much praise for the results, now that is all to be thrown to the dogs and for what?

“I understand why the bigger, richer clubs with chances of promotion are pushing hard to continue, but in a sense they are asking smaller clubs with no crowds or income who are playing for no reason to take large loans and probably overstretch themselves with dire consequences, to subsidise the larger clubs ambitions. I do not agree with that position.

“The board has very little credibility as an organisation within our clubs and I believe the decision to send letters to clubs who find it difficult to play, threatening sanctions was ill-conceived and will do nothing to unite the competition in what continues to be a very divisive time. Even if the vote is to continue I do not believe that the league will be able to continue in any credible form or with integrity for another five months.

“There are some very good people on the board and I do not seek to criticise individuals, but as a body, I do not believe we have shown strong, relevant leadership. Our governance has descended into chaos and some decisions made by the board seem to change when interpreted by the executive.”

Is this not what all the fuss was about with the European Super League, the integrity of the football pyamid had to be protected.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

It’s not about blame. It’s about whether there is a secure league to go into.

This sums up why we should try to avoid the NL at all costs.

The NL has no integrity, no leadership, and is run on a whim. It misled its members about grants and then bullied clubs into fulfilling games. It failed to take action on clubs that furloughed players and put out weakened teams.

Quoted from Hagrid

it is our fault 100%

but i dont blame the club for asking, explains why nodding dog Day is still here

I like that description.

Firstly yes nobody outside the club during the season can be blamed for relegation.

That said, I’d love this appeal to be successful still, for obvious reasons.

Biggest issue I think the EFL will have with it is this. The basis of the appeal seems to be that nobody is getting relegated from the National League, but they are promoting two clubs. Grimsby and Southend feel that is unfair and compromises the integrity of the competition in the National League....

But by the same token, if the EFL then promotes 3 clubs from EFL2 but doesn’t relegate 2, then aren’t they doing exactly the same thing? Be difficult for the EFL to take any form of high ground wouldn’t it, as 2 wrongs really don’t make a right.

"Than sums up why we should try to avoid the NL at all costs".

The trouble is, it appears that we did not try to avoid the NL at ANY cost.  Certainly not doing basic due diligence checks on Hollowhead was the final nail in the coffin.

We have been in NL before so know exactly how dire it is.  With Covid the risks are much greater.

Prevention is always better than cure.  

Not sure if this has already been proposed but I think it would be fair to allow no relegation this year relegate 3 teams for the following two years while promoting 2 and there on 3 up 3 down

Must admit I’m a bit torn on this at the minute.

However it is an argument I was pushing back in January that would undoubtedly come up whoever gets relegated.l, on one of our many long running NL threads.

For me, there is no harm in simply asking a question. It is for others to decide, not GTFC or Southend.

There is most certainly a valid argument to be had in terms of league integrity.

The EFL have their own rules on relegating clubs out of their structure in to a league with no sporting integrity. So they must rule on that.

So I think that’s the crux of the issue.

Do the EFL believe a NL with scores of furloughed players and volunteers in their place, an arguable breach of their own funding rules and no competition re relegation form enough of a concern regards sporting integrity?

I know my opinion, on balance is probably yes it does. However the EFL are another matter.

In terms of caring if we stay up on a technicality I’d like to think I would care about that. But know I’m probably like most fans and will have forgotten about that in 5 minutes.

The debate about no promotion/relegation within the EFL is abit of a red herring.

League two is part of EFL structure of leagues. So it’s slightly different and not comparable to this situation.  

Even if it was, there was no cancellation of relegation pre the end of the season so there’s no competition argument.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

It’s not about blame. It’s about whether there is a secure league to go into.

Of course it's about blame. We shoudn't have been in this position of facing relegation to the National League.

Imagine for whatever reason they allow us to stay in the FL then us and Southend get promoted to league 1.. Imagine the uproar from other teams 😂

Quoted from arryarryarry

Of course it's about blame. We shoudn't have been in this position of facing relegation to the National League.

No. You’re missing the point about reasons for the appeal. It’s not blaming anyone for our relegation.

Quoted from arryarryarry

Of course it's about blame. We shoudn't have been in this position of facing relegation to the National League.

I think it's two different arguments. I totally agree with you that we should not have been put into this position by Fenty, but this is whether the league we have been relegated to is stable enough.

Imagine next season we are sailing along nicely at Xmas, top of the league maybe and then the  NL folds because clubs have taken on too much debt that the NL insisted on. Then what would happen? Up a creek without a paddle.

In any event, we have got to ask the question.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

I think it's two different arguments. I totally agree with you that we should not have been put into this position by Fenty, but this is whether the league we have been relegated to is stable enough.

Imagine next season we are sailing along nicely at Xmas, top of the league maybe and then the  NL folds because clubs have taken on too much debt that the NL insisted on. Then what would happen? Up a creek without a paddle.

In any event, we have got to ask the question.

I think the real concern is if there has to be a ban on fans again in the winter. What happens then?

And I said this months ago...

The EFL should not be relegating anyone to the NL unless there is a concrete plan and guaranteed funding for the 2021/22 season if the worst happens and it's no fans again.

We totally deserve to be relegated, of course we do, but not one of us would argue if our appeal was successful, would we?

the league doesn't lie we should go down

But we are entering a structure that is not well run and seems to make it's own rules as they go along this creates CHAOS  I'm afraid  no clear rules and a state of uncertainty

UN professional, lets face it we've had a club badly run why should we accept a badly run league haven't we been through and suffered enough

Can't see reprieve but at least the EFL are reminded our fears  UTM

Quoted from GollyGTFC

That's a great idea, but where's the extra TV money for L3 going to come from? L2 clubs get around £475,000 a season.

And are the PL going to expand their solidarity payments to cover another division?

League 2 might get that money but it's for other divisions being on TV, a televised match in the lower two divisions is a rarety, even in these days of blanket football on TV. L1, L2 and L3 could negotiate their own TV deal, I can't pretend to know what it would bring in financially but it would be a lot more attractive to the fans of lower divisions sides than the current offering of incessant Prem and Champ games. The National League coverage shows there is a market for lower league football, and there are some far larger areas of population spread over the 96 clubs than just the NL Prem that BT sport cover.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

No. You’re missing the point about reasons for the appeal. It’s not blaming anyone for our relegation.

No, you are missing my point, whatever happens to the National League, if it all goes mammaries up whilst we are in it, don't blame them blame the twits who took us down.

I think we look like twits even appealing.

Quoted from diehardmariner

No-one else to blame for relegation, I agree.

But we're not talking about relegation are we.  We're talking, in this instance, about having a league to go into.  A league that can actually ensure it gets completed.  

Make no mistake, the Conference and everything below it is absolutely teetering on the brink at present. It's a neither a secure or safe league to be in.  If we're in that league and it completely collapses in October, December, February, at any point, we're absolutely screwed.  That's it.  We've no league to play in.  Even a curtailed season because too many clubs can't complete fixtures leaves us screwed.  

If you think we're going to be challenging relegation this season, whoever finishes 23rd/24th next season will damn well be contesting going into a league that will see a third of the teams give up during the season, another third playing youth team players because that's all they can afford and the further third clawing to get out the god forsaken place.  

Well it looks like it is going to complete this season with only one club defaulting on its fixtures so nowhere near as bad as some were suggesting on here.

Like I have posted elsewhere, if the 2021-22 National League starts and then goes mammaries up whilst we are in it we do have only ourselves to blame, no one else. There will be many clubs as big as ours that will suffer as well, so why should we be spared that misery. Plus those clubs that finished top and wins the play-offs deserve to be in the EFL.

Said it at the time that as soon as the second round of funding wasn't forthcoming, the NL should have been scrapped. It would never have started had the teams known they wouldn't get any further monies.

The EFL should have stepped in at that point and told them to give it up as it's not been a league with any integrity since that weighted voting system was put in place.

Then there's the Dover expunged results to consider. Some teams had played them and some hadn't, so that affects the final standings in an arbitrary way.

The league is run by people whose members have given them a vote of no confidence and the whole league is operating against it's own rules.

There is definitely a cause for an appeal, though I doubt it would be successful as they will all just carry on regardless, despite the obvious faults with the league structure.

If the impossible did happen and we got a reprieve, I wouldn't bat an eyelid and would consider it a bullet well and truly dodged.

Maybe the EFL should go back in time and have a vote on relegation/ promotion.
The promise of boxes of fish when they come to BP might just keep us up

Quoted from ginnywings

Said it at the time that as soon as the second round of funding wasn't forthcoming, the NL should have been scrapped. It would never have started had the teams known they wouldn't get any further monies.

The EFL should have stepped in at that point and told them to give it up as it's not been a league with any integrity since that weighted voting system was put in place.

Then there's the Dover expunged results to consider. Some teams had played them and some hadn't, so that affects the final standings in an arbitrary way.

The league is run by people whose members have given them a vote of no confidence and the whole league is operating against it's own rules.

There is definitely a cause for an appeal, though I doubt it would be successful as they will all just carry on regardless, despite the obvious faults with the league structure.

If the impossible did happen and we got a reprieve, I wouldn't bat an eyelid and would consider it a bullet well and truly dodged.

I absolutely agree with your above comments. Unfortunately, the people in power in the NL have their heads firmly stuck up the backsides of those 6/7 clubs wanting to move to the promised land. Those members of the NL board who don't have stuck there's in the sand like the proverbial ostrich; all of which will not be seen until August when they hope their chaos will be behind them.

Brian Barwick meanwhile must have spoken to olloway for advice and jumped ship; like his adviser leaving his mess behind him.

Quoted from arryarryarry

No, you are missing my point, whatever happens to the National League, if it all goes mammaries up whilst we are in it, don't blame them blame the twits who took us down.

I think we look like twits even appealing.

No one said there was no blame attached to those in charge of GTFC. And no one said the appeal was because anyone was to blame. The point is that the NL is not stable.

So you were arguing against something no one had said!

Quoted from KingstonMariner

No one said there was no blame attached to those in charge of GTFC. And no one said the appeal was because anyone was to blame. The point is that the NL is not stable.

So you were arguing against something no one had said!

Seems to be his raison d'etre.

Imp in peace.... hope you guys bounce back soon. Need Lincolnshire teams to be strong once again.... all the best for the NL

So does this appeal have legs or is it a total shot in the dark?

We got relegated fair and square. We were bad. But I would love to stay in the league.

Reading up on what happened in the National League this season shows that the current custodians of that league are not fit for purpose to run it.

Guess it's just a matter to wait and see.

Quoted from SheepGTFC

So does this appeal have legs or is it a total shot in the dark?

We got relegated fair and square. We were bad. But I would love to stay in the league.

Reading up on what happened in the National League this season shows that the current custodians of that league are not fit for purpose to run it.

Guess it's just a matter to wait and see.

Depends how far GTFC & Southend are willing to go (UK Courts or Court of Arbitration for Sport?). And what the EFL rules say about relegated clubs having a competition to play in and whether the NL can prove that their league is stable & would be able to take place next season if there was another ban on supporters attending in person.

Could there be a compromise? A 26 team L2 next season with 1 club promoted automatically, 3 clubs relegated automatically & a 6 team play-off involving 2nd to 6th in the NL & 23rd in L2?

Finances from a EFL point of view aren't an issue. SUFC & GTFC would be receiving the full L2 TV money next season as a parachute payment anyway. The PL solidarity payments would be an issue as the budget is for 24 teams and not 26. Maybe Grimsby & Southend would accept no solidarity payments?

4 extra fixtures seem a lot but the league is starting 6 weeks earlier this season so it wouldn't cause a massive issue squeezing in another 4 midweeks dates to what is already planned for the 2021/22 season.

I think the saving grace could be the fact it won’t be just us and Southend involved here, I imagine a few clubs would’ve been on board when the NLN/S season was curtailed just in case.

I think there’s absolutely no chance though and I’m a bit disappointed Southend decided to leak this, gives unnecessary hope.

It is a long shot, but worth a try.

To the point some posters have made regarding the impact cancelling L2 relegation would have on the integrity of the league, I would say this. There is a world of difference between cancelling relegation at the end of the season when all the games have been played, and doing so mid way through the season.

For perhaps half of the NL teams, i.e. those with no chance of a play-off place, the second half of the season effectively comprised little more than friendlies in empty stadiums. No real incentive to put out a full strength team. In those circumstances perhaps half the results in the season were arbitrary and meaningless for one or more participants. That does not sound to me like a competitive league operating properly.

Whether that will sway the EFL is unknown. But, like some others have pointed out, my fear is that we drop into a division which, through no fault of our own, might well cease functioning properly next season, thereby preventing us returning to the EFL no matter how well we do on the pitch. So any chance of avoiding relegation should be explored even though our results this season certainly do mean that we deserve to go down.  

Fenty's long shadow will hang over us for some time yet.    

Quoted from RonMariner

Fenty's long shadow will hang over us for some time yet.

Who?

Quoted from Poojah

Who?

The handyman that changes the floodlight bulbs.

This is just embarrassing for the football club.  We have been crap all season, ended up where we deserved to end up and now are trying to "ESL" our way out of it.

Obviously, if it’s between ourselves and Southend and Torquay and whoever wins the playoffs, the latter deserve to go up and we deserve to go down. However, with the situation in the National League at the moment, you’d think it would be fair to allow promotion as normal, whilst keeping the two clubs up. A one time only ‘26 clubs, four go down to the national league’ scenario. It would only result in the club finishing 23rd next year complaining that ‘we wouldn’t be down fourth bottom normally’... but they’d still be the 23rd best club in the league, which already results in relegation. Plus, 4 more fixtures for clubs after a year without fans could be a good idea. This seems like a fair way of treating it, but tbh so does just allowing relegation to me.

The national league would definitely not want two clubs to go up and none to go down and wouldn’t agree to it anyway. But still, I kinda like the idea.

Of course, for people who would truly want to watch the world burn, a situation where we have a ‘League 2 North and South’, the 24 League 2/NL teams split into 2, with the top ten (non promoted) teams of each going into League 2 the season after would be perhaps the most unfair, but also most hilarious, solution imaginable.

Check out the statement from Jason Stockwood on the GTFC page.

Not sure if this link will work as I don't use Twitter  

https://twitter.com/jstockwood/status/1391092868866007041/photo/1

Quoted from Trickytrev

Check out the statement from Jason Stockwood on the GTFC page.

Not sure if this link will work as I don't use Twitter  

https://twitter.com/jstockwood/status/1391092868866007041/photo/1

If it’s a case of it coming down to a vote then you would have to imagine it’s unlikely others will vote in our favour. Certainly no League Two club is going to vote for a scenario that would mean an increase in the number of relegation places over the course of the next season or two. Turkeys and Christmas and all that.

Again, it’s worth asking the question but I think most would concede this is the longest of long shots.

If we very very fortunate and the appeal was successful, we should have no qualms about surviving.on moral grounds.  It would be decided by others.  Clubs purposely go into Administration to survive and avoid paying debts due.

I don’t understand how the National league can call the shots on this.
No one is going down from our leagues but we still expect the other league to let our teams go up?

I’d think this even if we wasn’t the ones going down.

Quoted from bawarmy

I don’t understand how the National league can call the shots on this.
No one is going down from our leagues but we still expect the other league to let our teams go up?

I’d think this even if we wasn’t the ones going down.

But how can the National League relegate teams to divisions a majority of whose clubs voted to null and void their season with fewer than half of their fixtures played? This, in my mind, is the key problem that any attempt to avoid relegation can't overcome. However unstable it may appear to be, ourselves and Southend do have a league to go into next season. Clubs like King's Lynn and Barnet, who would be looking at relegation from the National League under normal circumstances, effectively would not because of the null and void vote, which the FA subsequently ratified.

The non league element of the pyramid is seemingly in a mess, financially and organisationally.

Whilst I agree to an extent regarding the reasons for the appeal I can’t help but think it’s a huge straw clutch. We deserve to go down, in fact, it may actually be easier for us to make some of those changes intimated by the new owners in the conference...

I can’t see the appeal being won and Stockwood’s response almost sounds like they’re not really arsed, was this instigated by the outgoing board?

I do believe the integrity of the conference has been comprised this year through their own poor decisions and mismanagement, teams have exploited furlough schemes and the like which I also find, on a personal level quite dodgy and surely needs looking in to but we know nothing will happen.

I’ve looked at the positives to some extent; we go down, we regroup and rebrand, we build a squad that has belief and wins more games than it loses, in turn attracting the fans back and we try and push on, capitalising on the fact half the teams have seemingly just been playing friendlies this year...

Quoted from aldi_01

The non league element of the pyramid is seemingly in a mess, financially and organisationally.

Whilst I agree to an extent regarding the reasons for the appeal I can’t help but think it’s a huge straw clutch. We deserve to go down, in fact, it may actually be easier for us to make some of those changes intimated by the new owners in the conference...

I can’t see the appeal being won and Stockwood’s response almost sounds like they’re not really arsed, was this instigated by the outgoing board?

I do believe the integrity of the conference has been comprised this year through their own poor decisions and mismanagement, teams have exploited furlough schemes and the like which I also find, on a personal level quite dodgy and surely needs looking in to but we know nothing will happen.

I’ve looked at the positives to some extent; we go down, we regroup and rebrand, we build a squad that has belief and wins more games than it loses, in turn attracting the fans back and we try and push on, capitalising on the fact half the teams have seemingly just been playing friendlies this year...

That's the impression I get. I think they have washed their hands of the entire previous regime and want them to own our relegation. I think the appeal was started by Philip Day and they have inherited the situation.

Great if it comes off, but we know that won't happen and the new owners are planning the future in non league and it won't include Mr Day once the transition is complete.

You never know, if Torquay get promoted then clubs might not fancy the journey and vote to save us.










Now that , ladies, gentlemen,  is how you clutch at straws. 😎

Not gonna happen!!!

Now, on a more serious note, can I take an inflatable haddock to Barnet or not? 😂😂😂

Quoted from moss_side_mariner

Not gonna happen!!!

Now, on a more serious note, can I take an inflatable haddock to Barnet or not? 😂😂😂

Might be a sausage....

A flask?

I see Jason Stockwood says they will abstain from voting about relegation,funny that as we are not a efl  club any more we have no voting rights.We don’t even go into the meeting all we  are there for is formally discharged from the league.

Quoted from Iknowyoursecret

I see Jason Stockwood says they will abstain from voting about relegation,funny that as we are not a efl  club any more we have no voting rights.We don’t even go into the meeting all we  are there for is formally discharged from the league.

surely we are an efl club until we have been formally discharged?

Quoted from Iknowyoursecret

I see Jason Stockwood says they will abstain from voting about relegation,funny that as we are not a efl  club any more we have no voting rights.We don’t even go into the meeting all we  are there for is formally discharged from the league.

I know your secret.  🛎 End, no I’m not Sherlock Holmes..

Would teams vote for 2 more home league games if fans are let in. More income after this last year of nothing.

I don’t have any inside info (are you watching Philipe) but could the reason behind this be that if we appeal on the grounds of the Conference potentially going pop, then next year it does actually go pop we can make a case for promotion notwithstanding. It’d be difficult for the EFL to refuse to promote a side who could say we told you that this was going to happen but you relegated us anyway, now it has you can’t stop us from coming back up.

Sad ploy by whomever - take the hit, come back stronger, earn the right to be there !!

UTM.

Quoted from acko338

Sad ploy by whomever - take the hit, come back stronger, earn the right to be there !!

UTM.

With the greatest respect, that is not the point we are making.

If we are in a league which due to the incompetence of its ruling body implodes because too many clubs were forced into financial difficulties, how do we come back stronger? What mechanism would there be for us to get back into the league?

This is not just any old league that has hit financial difficulties, its difficulties are directly attributable to its governing body. If several of the clubs cannot sustain the debt incurred, who is going to bail them out for the league to be viable?

A lot of ifs and buts, but it is most definitely worth asking the question. Knowing our luck we would be sailing along top of the league (keeping our part of the bargain to bounce back) only for the league to collapse. We surely need some reassurance that the league will be able to complete next season whatever the circumstances at the very least?

Is it about time that the national league became the fifth division of the EFL?

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

With the greatest respect, that is not the point we are making.

If we are in a league which due to the incompetence of its ruling body implodes because too many clubs were forced into financial difficulties, how do we come back stronger? What mechanism would there be for us to get back into the league?

This is not just any old league that has hit financial difficulties, its difficulties are directly attributable to its governing body. If several of the clubs cannot sustain the debt incurred, who is going to bail them out for the league to be viable?

A lot of ifs and buts, but it is most definitely worth asking the question. Knowing our luck we would be sailing along top of the league (keeping our part of the bargain to bounce back) only for the league to collapse. We surely need some reassurance that the league will be able to complete next season whatever the circumstances at the very least?

Don't often disagree with you, but not sure how you can use those points as a reason for not going down when they are the exact reasons we are.

A league has to have integrity and competence to govern. The NL has had neither this season, Dover has stopped playing and the rest of the teams are doing what they like. Those wanting promotion have been bullying for the league to continue, those who want to survive with no chance of promotion are playing with no ambition and weaken teams; players being furloughed to save money.

The board is not competent to run a league as they misled clubs into thinking that further grants would be available. They let Dover stop playing and took no notice of clubs' financial positions insisting that they take loans, which Dover pointed out are against the laws drawn up by the NL. Also, they have taken no stance in players being furloughed to save money when the player's occupation, defender, etc. is being used. Finally, many NL clubs have signed a letter of no confidence in the board.

The NL has been a complete and utter mess since Christmas and no club, beit Town or Southend, from L2 should be allowed to relegate to it this season. The EFL and FA should sort the mess out and not watch from their ivory towers.

I think your final sentence nails it there DB.  More so for the EFL than the FA (who have very little power).

The EFL watched on whilst the NL went to pot this season.  It's nothing new that two teams go down and two teams come up from it, they should have been sticking their nose in right from the off.

Instead they were too busy licking the boots of the Project Big Picture mob, hoping a couple of extra crumbs fell off the table.  

The FA have authority over the NL DHM. The League have no jurisdiction. But we know the FA will do FA.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

The FA have authority over the NL DHM. The League have no jurisdiction. But we know the FA will do FA.

Could be because their man Barwick, who was the FA chief exec. is still chairman of the NL until his resignation comes into force. Not going to hammer one of their own, are they!

  This is certainly straw clutching, but if you're hanging over a cliff it's not unreasonable to clutch at any straw you can get your hands on. If by some miracle this worked I don't think anyone would complain. A 26 team League 2 for a season is certainly doable. Those who say we might actually be better off getting relegated and rebuilding from the National League seem to be assuming that promotion back to the Football League would be a formality within a year, or two at the most. Perhaps they should ask Wrexham supporters what their views are on that.

When is this "appeal" being heard?

Quoted from Les Brechin

When is this "appeal" being heard?

I think I heard June 10th, the League's AGM

Quoted from arryarryarry

Don't often disagree with you, but not sure how you can use those points as a reason for not going down when they are the exact reasons we are.

I admit self-interest is playing a huge part. If I was a fan of anybody else apart from Southend and the Mariners I would not be giving it a moments thought, but that is the way of it.

If it can be proved that the NL is not a fit and proper league, and has broken its own rules regarding a full programme of matches and stopping relegation from it, and has itself caused its member clubs extreme hardship which means next season is in some doubt, then a reprieve would do me just fine. I would rather we banter with each other in August as fans of a Football League club.

On reflection, I would not punish the NL sides who get promoted as they have played on in good faith but in these exceptional circumstances you just never know what might be decided.

It's a very very long shot, but here's hoping.

We were rubbish.  We need to suck it up and pay the consequences.  Some people's argument that the teams that get promoted from the NL have played teams who don't care because they have no relegation  has no bearing on how we have performed.  Also the promoted teams won have played one of the bottom five every week.  They also will have played challengers to the promotion spot / play off places and won them.  Let's be gracious in defeat and I'll see you at Wembley next year, if we're not Champions.

Quoted from Mayaman

We were rubbish.  We need to suck it up and pay the consequences.  Some people's argument that the teams that get promoted from the NL have played teams who don't care because they have no relegation  has no bearing on how we have performed.  Also the promoted teams won have played one of the bottom five every week.  They also will have played challengers to the promotion spot / play off places and won them.  Let's be gracious in defeat and I'll see you at Wembley next year, if we're not Champions.

What about relegating teams to a league that breaks it own rules and inflicts financial hardship on its teams, I don't think for one minute anyone argues we don't deserve to be relegated, however do we deserve to be subjected to the complete incompetence of the leagues administration.. I think not. :B

Quoted from mimma

Is it about time that the national league became the fifth division of the EFL?

In terms of its play, there's probably been a strong argument in favour of that for years. But, given the National League has its own TV deal, it would probably be a lot more complicated that. I guess self-interest will probably mean no change.

Interesting from Colchester chairman
https://twitter.com/bbcessexsport/status/1392900386550333444?s=21

Quoted from MuddyWaters

Interesting from Colchester chairman
https://twitter.com/bbcessexsport/status/1392900386550333444?s=21

Good man! He is bang on the money.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

Interesting from Colchester chairman
https://twitter.com/bbcessexsport/status/1392900386550333444?s=21

That sums up what many on here have already said.

Quoted from DB

That sums up what many on here have already said.

As we aren’t voting, it’s worth knowing what others are thinking!

If GTFC should actually win the appeal ( alleged to be heard on 10th June) - will that mess up Paul Hurst recruiting plans for next season - ie targeting players for the National League campaign - then having to target players for League 2 and finding most of players suitable for this league have already been tapped up and made their decision to join other clubs.

Any body know?
Thought not.
Have a nice summer everyone.
UTM

Frankly my dears I can't be arsed &  look forward to a season of success in what is effectively division 5.of the pyramid thing.

didn't Grimsby get relegated at a vote because it would cost more for a teams from the north west to come across on the train than stay local?

Quoted from bobbyturtle

didn't Grimsby get relegated at a vote because it would cost more for a teams from the north west to come across on the train than stay local?

Yes.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

As we aren’t voting, it’s worth knowing what others are thinking!

Two key questions for me. What exactly is being proposed and does Cowling's view reflect a wider attitude among Football League, and particularly League Two, chairmen? I think he's quite right to say that he would have been seen as self-serving if he'd made these remarks a few weeks ago. What I don't understand is why he thinks deducting points from teams at the bottom of the National League is justified.

He was saying if the sides at the bottom knew they would have points deducted next season, they would have had something to play got this season despite there being no relegation.

Points deductions imply the clubs on the receiving end have broken the rules in some way. Taking Dover out of the equation, given their case is pending, I don't see what rules the clubs in what would have been the National League's relegation places have broken. So I don't see the justification for it. It's not the National League clubs' fault that the North and South voted for null and void.

Quoted from EY Mariner

Points deductions imply the clubs on the receiving end have broken the rules in some way. Taking Dover out of the equation, given their case is pending, I don't see what rules the clubs in what would have been the National League's relegation places have broken. So I don't see the justification for it. It's not the National League clubs' fault that the North and South voted for null and void.

It wasn’t suggested as a punishment. What he was saying is that when the NL voted to end relegation this season, they should have retained some jeopardy for the teams who otherwise would’ve been at risk of going down, to make sure that all teams continued to be competitive.

Listen to it again.

Quoted from Teestogreen

If GTFC should actually win the appeal ( alleged to be heard on 10th June) - will that mess up Paul Hurst recruiting plans for next season - ie targeting players for the National League campaign - then having to target players for League 2 and finding most of players suitable for this league have already been tapped up and made their decision to join other clubs.

I wouldn’t worry about that too much, Hurst is renowned for taking his time with signings and I feel a lot of our options will all be hoping for a football league club to come in for them. I’d be very surprised if we signed anybody before June 10th

Quoted from pontoonlew

I wouldn’t worry about that too much, Hurst is renowned for taking his time with signings and I feel a lot of our options will all be hoping for a football league club to come in for them. I’d be very surprised if we signed anybody before June 10th

To be fair, we know contracts run at varying lengths etc and usually don’t see much in the way of signings early doors anyway.

I know fans like the idea of getting them in and settled and all that jazz early on but sometimes it’s best to at least give yourself some time...also, if he’s looking at some current playing in the upper echelons of the conference they could still be playing...

That said, I’m aware that there’s waiting to make signings and then there’s Holloway time...

Quoted from bobbyturtle

didn't Grimsby get relegated at a vote because it would cost more for a teams from the north west to come across on the train than stay local?

And, weren't we voted into the league once on the proviso we gave every visiting team a crate of fish, or am I imagining that?

Quoted from KingstonMariner

It wasn’t suggested as a punishment. What he was saying is that when the NL voted to end relegation this season, they should have retained some jeopardy for the teams who otherwise would’ve been at risk of going down, to make sure that all teams continued to be competitive.

Listen to it again.

A few weeks ago, I covered King's Lynn's match away at Halifax. They lost 4-2, having led 2-0, but were a potent threat to a side in playoff contention for most of that game. The other night, Woking (currently 20th in the table) only lost to the league leaders by the odd goal in five. From what I've seen, and the reports I've read from colleagues who watch them more frequently than I do, those teams are still competitive enough.

But even if you're right, and having listened to the clip several times I don't think you are, it still misses the point that it would be the impact of such a measure that would be more important than the intention. All it would do is punish clubs for something they had no control over. How is that fair?

It’s fairer than relegation.

“As soon as they’ve done that they could have announced that the teams finished bottom start next season with a points deduction. That would have maintained the integrity of the league.” About 20 seconds in.

So I was right about what he said. I don’t know how you can miss that EY.

And you can’t get much less competitive than a team completely ceasing to play.

Irrelevant now.

The board have agreed to stop the appeal.

The right thing to do

Well done to the board 👏

Quoted from arryarryarry

Irrelevant now.

The board have agreed to stop the appeal.

Where have you seen this?

Quoted from toontown

Where have you seen this?

A statement from Jason Stockwood was read out on Radio Humberside earlier this afternoon.

And I have to say, the right decision.

Quoted from arryarryarry

And I have to say, the right decision.

However if the EFL turn round and say “you are not going down” I’m sure we’d graciously accept wouldn’t we?

Quoted from Belfast Town

The right thing to do

Is it in the best interest of the club, which is what they're there to do?

I get that they want to distance themselves from the old board and come across as doing the right thing, but I don't see this being the right thing at all.

The NL clubs can hardly complain about it. They voted for the same thing, and any club that gets promotion taken away from them has ultimately had to suffer the same fate as they put the smaller clubs under when they voted to continue ie losing money for absolutely nothing

Quoted from Theimperialcoroner

However if the EFL turn round and say “you are not going down” I’m sure we’d graciously accept wouldn’t we?

For sure. It would feel a lot better that way though. I dunno, it didn't feel right us appealing. We were excrement, the club was a farce top to bottom. We deserve to go down, as much as I'm really not looking forward to a South-heavy league that's a fornicator to get out of.

Quoted from toontown

Where have you seen this?

https://twitter.com/HumbersideSport/status/1393551855838539776/photo/1

Quoted from pen penfras

Is it in the best interest of the club, which is what they're there to do?

I get that they want to distance themselves from the old board and come across as doing the right thing, but I don't see this being the right thing at all.

The NL clubs can hardly complain about it. They voted for the same thing, and any club that gets promotion taken away from them has ultimately had to suffer the same fate as they put the smaller clubs under when they voted to continue ie losing money for absolutely nothing

Yes it is the best thing...we were the worst team in the football league. The more we find out the more we realise that it was a farce, the club was a joke and therefore we deserve to go down.

We can cry bottom all we want about the state of the conference but in truth the appeal would never have worked or been successful.

Should the EFL/conference decide otherwise in our absence then so be it but we all know that’s unlikely.

The new owners have made the right call and have done so with the best interest of the club...why pursue something that will inevitably turn out to be unsuccessful when that time, money and effort can be spent elsewhere on rectifying the years of intercourse ups and strategies to move us forward?

It’s hard to imagine the club doing that though, we’re used to the club pursuing things that are futile...PP anyone?

Quoted from KingstonMariner

“As soon as they’ve done that they could have announced that the teams finished bottom start next season with a points deduction. That would have maintained the integrity of the league.” About 20 seconds in.

So I was right about what he said. I don’t know how you can miss that EY.

And you can’t get much less competitive than a team completely ceasing to play.

Again, you're missing the point. I'm not disputing what Cowling said. I just see it as a total nonsense. In seeking to maintain so-called integrity this season, the proposal would effectively distort the integrity of the league next season for no valid disciplinary reason. As far as I'm concerned, it's not credible and I'd question whether it would be legal either. At least our club has had the good sense to now bow to reality.

Quoted from arryarryarry

Irrelevant now.

The board have agreed to stop the appeal.

Does this have anything to do with Day’s rapid exit?

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

Does this have anything to do with Day’s rapid exit?

I wondered that as well. Listening to RH yesterday afternoon in discussion with a Trustee board member (I can't remember her name) I believe she suggested that the decision to appeal was made by Fenty and Day and not the new owners.

Quoted from EY Mariner

Again, you're missing the point. I'm not disputing what Cowling said. I just see it as a total nonsense. In seeking to maintain so-called integrity this season, the proposal would effectively distort the integrity of the league next season for no valid disciplinary reason. As far as I'm concerned, it's not credible and I'd question whether it would be legal either. At least our club has had the good sense to now bow to reality.

EY: What I don't understand is why he thinks deducting points from teams at the bottom of the National League is justified.

KM: He was saying if the sides at the bottom knew they would have points deducted next season, they would have had something to play got this season despite there being no relegation.

EY:  Points deductions imply the clubs on the receiving end have broken the rules in some way. Taking Dover out of the equation, given their case is pending, I don't see what rules the clubs in what would have been the National League's relegation places have broken. So I don't see the justification for it. It's not the National League clubs' fault that the North and South voted for null and void.

KM: It wasn’t suggested as a punishment. What he was saying is that when the NL voted to end relegation this season, they should have retained some jeopardy for the teams who otherwise would’ve been at risk of going down, to make sure that all teams continued to be competitive.

EY: But even if you're right, and having listened to the clip several times I don't think you are

If that doesn’t mean that you didn’t understand what Cowling said, I don’t know what does. We can all disagree on the essential arguments, but you clearly did not understand what the guy was saying.

For me, it wasn't that we didn't deserve to go down because we did. It still is, but my issue is what are we going down to?

To me, we are going down to a league that has no integrity, no governance, and no league management. Its rules are bent and twisted and serve no purpose. There is a vote of no confidence in the board and its leader is jumping ship, like Holloway, when his pack of cards started to collapse.

The appeal like all decisions in the old regime was not based on the right reasons, but on what sounded good. Alas we are now resigned to the inept decisions of this management which have now passed, but as I have just said we should go down, but to something better than what awaits us.

Quoted from DB

For me, it wasn't that we didn't deserve to go down because we did. It still is, but my issue is what are we going down to?

To me, we are going down to a league that has no integrity, no governance, and no league management. Its rules are bent and twisted and serve no purpose. There is a vote of no confidence in the board and its leader is jumping ship, like Holloway, when his pack of cards started to collapse.

The appeal like all decisions in the old regime was not based on the right reasons, but on what sounded good. Alas we are now resigned to the inept decisions of this management which have now passed, but as I have just said we should go down, but to something better than what awaits us.

For a League that probably has nowhere near the funding the EFL receives it is still managing to complete the season.

As for the EFL many on here moan about the way that is run especially when it came to allowing 'B' teams into the League Cup.  

The NL began the season with the intention of completing it using funds they thought were grants. Turns out they were loans.

After that, they changed the rules to say there should still remain promotion but have no relegation.

The NL had set a precedence here. In theory, what was to stop the EFL doing exactly the same thing, i.e. retain promotion but have no relegation?

We finished bottom and deservedly so. No one suggested we deserved to stay up on playing merit. We questioned the governance of a league we were about to join - and if the question raised serious questions about the integrity of the competition then maybe we’d have been saved from the drop as a consequence - not because anyone thought we deserved to stay in L2.

Anyway, it’s not worth discussing now. The ‘appeal’ was a legacy thing, clearly the new owners didn’t want anything to do with it (and rightly so).

But I still think it’s right to shine a light on the governance of the NL. I’m still a bit nervous about how they’ll manage next season.

I think, ultimately, it shows the old board up for what they were. A set of schemers and shysters not willing to put the time, money or effort in and hope they’d find a weasel way to get what they wanted. Shameless, and I’m glad Day has followed the clowns out the door.

Quoted from ska face

I think, ultimately, it shows the old board up for what they were. A set of schemers and shysters not willing to put the time, money or effort in and hope they’d find a weasel way to get what they wanted. Shameless, and I’m glad Day has followed the clowns out the door.

I don’t disagree, but does this apply to Southend too? Whose idea was it in the first place I wonder?

Sarfend were quick to credit Town with leadership of the initiative. Maybe they were lukewarm on the idea. But are they still going through with it?

Good - PH knows exactly which division he is in to make the right recruitments for next season - certainty can be good.
UTM

Would much rather be in League 2 than non league if at all possible, the loss of funding for one thing never mind the difficulty of getting out of that League, i certainly dont imagine us walking it and coming up as champions so at best the lottery of the play offs.....but there are 5 or 6 other clubs who will lose out this year and be stronger for it next year too so no guarantees to be there either.
I do think the as a club we should at least question the vaildity of the League we are heading to under this seasons circumstances. Under normal circumstances no arguments about going down on merit but worth appealing i thought.

Imagine if Southend continue and win an appeal and because we said we arent interested we still go down.  :-/

Just to remind ourselves how bad the NL is. Solihull's match with Barnet last night was postponed, they both play this Saturday and both have games the following Tuesday.

The league is supposed to finish on the 29th, meaning that they will both have to fit 4 games in within an 8 day period:-

22nd
25th
29th
plus 1

This is a league that was also classed as 'elite' some months ago. Let us not forget also that the season was also extended to accommodate the January problems. How would we feel if Solihull Moors read Grimsby Town?

We deserved on football merit to be relegated, but into a league that cannot plan the proverbial pi ss up in a brewery!

Quoted from DB

Just to remind ourselves how bad the NL is. Solihull's match with Barnet last night was postponed, they both play this Saturday and both have games the following Tuesday.

The league is supposed to finish on the 29th, meaning that they will both have to fit 4 games in within an 8 day period:-

22nd
25th
29th
plus 1

This is a league that was also classed as 'elite' some months ago. Let us not forget also that the season was also extended to accommodate the January problems. How would we feel if Solihull Moors read Grimsby Town?

We deserved on football merit to be relegated, but into a league that cannot plan the proverbial pi ss up in a brewery!

This is nothing new. We played 4 games in 8 days in the 13/14 season (and 5 games in 11 days).

It’s time to drop this now. We all know the division’s a joke, but that’s not a new development and a fact that hasn’t stopped teams being relegated into it every year.

From what I understand, correct me if I am wrong, yes we have rescinded our appeal, but the question of relegation to the NL is still on the agenda of the EFL st the AGM.

As it stands I do not see the EFL doing anything apart from talking about it though.

NL definite for us next season. But hoping for a quick return to the EFL.

#UTM

There are some well funded, well supported teams in the Nat League.
But at least we won’t have the excuse of lack of time planning and pre season this time. If we can get off to a good start u never know, but new signings will be critical to success.