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Quoted from KingstonMariner

I’m not in the least bit surprised by this. Perhaps as well as voting Conservative, people up north need to switch from football and rugby league to rugby Union.

Problem is people will still vote Tory at the next election.  On a daily basis we see the absolute depths of their corruption, their disgraceful behaviour and complete incompetence.

Actually, this isn't about Tories.  There's plenty of Tory voters, party members and even MP's who are appalled by the way this Government is acting.  Labour are offering no serious opposition and are more interested in pulling themselves apart.  It wouldn't surprise me if the Liberal Democrats stopped existing 10 years ago and then you're down to the likes of the Greens and other minority parties.

This country is broken.  You've got the elite in power looking down at everyone else, treating us with utter contempt. Laughing as they give contracts and big jobs to their mates. Breaking the rules in front of us yet telling us we have to abide by them.  You've got hundreds of thousands of people needing to rely on food banks just to survive.  You've got a 23-year-old footballer as the only legitimate opposition to the regime by using his profile and quite frankly outstanding moral standing to challenge.

It's time for a total change in how this country is governed and to break the party politics strangle hold we're under.  If a new political party with a genuine chance of challenging for power doesn't emerge from this shower, it'll be the biggest waste of an opportunity we'll know for generations.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Problem is people will still vote Tory at the next election.  On a daily basis we see the absolute depths of their corruption, their disgraceful behaviour and complete incompetence.

Actually, this isn't about Tories.  There's plenty of Tory voters, party members and even MP's who are appalled by the way this Government is acting.  Labour are offering no serious opposition and are more interested in pulling themselves apart.  It wouldn't surprise me if the Liberal Democrats stopped existing 10 years ago and then you're down to the likes of the Greens and other minority parties.

This country is broken.  You've got the elite in power looking down at everyone else, treating us with utter contempt. Laughing as they give contracts and big jobs to their mates. Breaking the rules in front of us yet telling us we have to abide by them.  You've got hundreds of thousands of people needing to rely on food banks just to survive.  You've got a 23-year-old footballer as the only legitimate opposition to the regime by using his profile and quite frankly outstanding moral standing to challenge.

It's time for a total change in how this country is governed and to break the party politics strangle hold we're under.  If a new political party with a genuine chance of challenging for power doesn't emerge from this shower, it'll be the biggest waste of an opportunity we'll know for generations.

I’d like to reply more fully but it’d set off the Anti-Politics Brigade. Agree with you though.

I agree with some of the points above but the minister points out that football has enough money, and he's absolutely right! Football is awash with money but it's all concentrated in the Premier League.

If football as a whole could get a fairer distribution of the money in the game lower division clubs would be fine. And therein lies the problem. The article says that rugby will receive 135 million - Premier League clubs spent way more than that in the summer on buying players. I'll bet that Pep Guardiola's new contract would keep Town afloat for at least a couple of seasons.

Think it was Sean Dyche of Burnley who said he hasn’t noted Tesco, Asda, Morrison’s etc being expected to bail out the corner shop, so why should Premiership clubs be expected to bail out lower down clubs.

Quoted from Gaffer58

Think it was Sean Dyche of Burnley who said he hasn’t noted Tesco, Asda, Morrison’s etc being expected to bail out the corner shop, so why should Premiership clubs be expected to bail out lower down clubs.

Would he have said that if Burnley were in the Championship though, of course not.

Quoted from Gaffer58

Think it was Sean Dyche of Burnley who said he hasn’t noted Tesco, Asda, Morrison’s etc being expected to bail out the corner shop, so why should Premiership clubs be expected to bail out lower down clubs.

Generally, I tend not to look to Sean Dyche for my incisive political, economic and social analysis.

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

I agree with some of the points above but the minister points out that football has enough money, and he's absolutely right! Football is awash with money but it's all concentrated in the Premier League.

If football as a whole could get a fairer distribution of the money in the game lower division clubs would be fine. And therein lies the problem. The article says that rugby will receive 135 million - Premier League clubs spent way more than that in the summer on buying players. I'll bet that Pep Guardiola's new contract would keep Town afloat for at least a couple of seasons.

Football as a whole does have enough money. It is just a question of distributing it amongst the have nots. Now how does that happen if the haves aren’t prepared to give it up? If only there were some kind of sovereign body with the authority to make that happen.

Quoted from Gaffer58

Think it was Sean Dyche of Burnley who said he hasn’t noted Tesco, Asda, Morrison’s etc being expected to bail out the corner shop, so why should Premiership clubs be expected to bail out lower down clubs.

It’s even more stark than that. The equivalent of the Premier League clubs in retail terms would be Amazon. Foreign owned. Making massive amounts of money- exceeding the dreams of the old established British elite. Sucking the life out of homegrown retail.

Chalk and cheese really.  A poor analogy.

My corner shop is in direct competition with the Metro Tesco nearby.

A corner shop will not change into a giant superstore. Or vice versa.

A lower-league football club (and Championship clubs more so)  can climb the pyramid on merit to the Premier League.  Conversely, Prem clubs can be relegated.

This is the natural order for football.  Structured and formalised.

Top clubs just want to keep the money that they have - and will receive in the future.  They should be careful for what they wish for.  Look at Hull as just one example.

But when all the American owners of premiership clubs veto relegation, as per USA sports, then those grubby little clubs from division 1 & 2 will never make the promised land.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

It’s even more stark than that. The equivalent of the Premier League clubs in retail terms would be Amazon. Foreign owned. Making massive amounts of money- exceeding the dreams of the old established British elite. Sucking the life out of homegrown retail.

This is a really interesting point and I'm going throw a grenade in here....the argument is often made that Amazon (and out of town retail giants) are sucking the life out of the high street but I can buy anything I want from Amazon and it arrives in good time (and as I work full time, quicker than if I went and bought the same item on the high street). For the same choice in the high street I would have to visit multiple shops and probably visit more than one high street. Add to that the costs of parking and the congestion and that most local high streets are sh*t holes and you can see why people prefer Amazon.

I'd also contend that the life was being sucked out of the high street long before the internet when every high street became exactly the same - I worked for some years as a sales rep visiting high streets and across the country you saw the same shops eg. Top Man, Burton, WH Smith, Debenhams, Dorothy Perkins and so on.

And the car has had a hugely detrimental impact on high streets, many of them were given over to the cult of the car in the 70s and from that point on they became increasingly unpleasant for pedestrians.

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

Generally, I tend not to look to Sean Dyche for my incisive political, economic and social analysis.

I wouldn’t say that to his face. He’d rip out your larynx and use it as a cravat

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

This is a really interesting point and I'm going throw a grenade in here....the argument is often made that Amazon (and out of town retail giants) are sucking the life out of the high street but I can buy anything I want from Amazon and it arrives in good time (and as I work full time, quicker than if I went and bought the same item on the high street). For the same choice in the high street I would have to visit multiple shops and probably visit more than one high street. Add to that the costs of parking and the congestion and that most local high streets are sh*t holes and you can see why people prefer Amazon.

I'd also contend that the life was being sucked out of the high street long before the internet when every high street became exactly the same - I worked for some years as a sales rep visiting high streets and across the country you saw the same shops eg. Top Man, Burton, WH Smith, Debenhams, Dorothy Perkins and so on.

And the car has had a hugely detrimental impact on high streets, many of them were given over to the cult of the car in the 70s and from that point on they became increasingly unpleasant for pedestrians.

At the risk of heading down an interesting side debate.....I agree the high street has slowly been going down for years, and online and Covid have accelerated it massively. But on line stores have massive tax advantages over bricks and mortar. And I agree they are much more convenient and cheap - I use them myself, following my own interests. But that’s the point of the analogy. The only people with a chance of doing anything to mitigate the decimation of the high street is government.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

At the risk of heading down an interesting side debate.....I agree the high street has slowly been going down for years, and online and Covid have accelerated it massively. But on line stores have massive tax advantages over bricks and mortar. And I agree they are much more convenient and cheap - I use them myself, following my own interests. But that’s the point of the analogy. The only people with a chance of doing anything to mitigate the decimation of the high street is government.

We're going there!

There are some positive signs and possibly a good story coming out of the pandemic. Some councils (Trafford in Manchester and a couple of London boroughs for example) have used the lockdown to pedestrianise roads in their areas (and make cycle friendly) so that they've become more accessible and friendly. It's been a huge success.
High rents in town centres have also pushed people out of living on high streets and made them retail only zones, so many 'die' after shops close. Some councils are encouraging the building of flats and the coversion of shops to accomodation to encourage people back into high streets. This also breathes life back into the shops and offers opportunities for cafes and restaurants etc.
Rents are a huge issue but with the number of companies going to the wall during the pandemic rents have to reduce and this will encourage smaller businesses who wouldn't have been able to open with the old rent structure.

BCT, I agree on Amazon and the High Street.

You could add “queuing in traffic on a Sat, queuing for the car park, finding a space, queuing in shops, maybe getting wet and most importantly, spending your valuable time and not finding what you want anyway”.

My wife orders Xmas presents from Amazon that she has researched in the comfort of home. She will sometimes order at 2200 hours and the presents will arrive next day. Often the next morning! The goods will be exactly as ordered and well-packaged. (No security tags left on either, as sometimes happens in big stores). The costs will be low as well.

If High Streets did not already exist, they would not be invented. (I do shop at small businesses in town though to support them).

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

We're going there!

There are some positive signs and possibly a good story coming out of the pandemic. Some councils (Trafford in Manchester and a couple of London boroughs for example) have used the lockdown to pedestrianise roads in their areas (and make cycle friendly) so that they've become more accessible and friendly. It's been a huge success.
High rents in town centres have also pushed people out of living on high streets and made them retail only zones, so many 'die' after shops close. Some councils are encouraging the building of flats and the coversion of shops to accomodation to encourage people back into high streets. This also breathes life back into the shops and offers opportunities for cafes and restaurants etc.
Rents are a huge issue but with the number of companies going to the wall during the pandemic rents have to reduce and this will encourage smaller businesses who wouldn't have been able to open with the old rent structure.

Unfortunately it will take a lot of businesses to go to the wall before the rents will reduce. So many retail units are owned by massive investment companies and pension schemes nowadays that it makes very little difference when a few retail units sit empty.

Sad but true.

The future of the high street surely lies predominantly in the entertainment and hospitality sector.  Retail is dying, if not already dead, when it comes to the high street.  So many factors, all listed above, have contributed to it.  It's sad but it's part of evolution.  Local councils need to get on board with the situation and ensure that the high street has a future, even if it's not in the traditional retail sense.

Pedestrianisation is a good suggestion. Of course it requires sufficient and nearby parking and/or good transport links.

Locally (and this is only going off the observations of my own eyes), St. Peters Avenue seems to be doing ok still but it has a mix of options down there, from retail to hospitality.  It also has enough natural footfall from nearby residential areas and the sea front itself.   Freshney Place and Victoria Street surely needs a complete and utter rethink.  I last went into Freshney Place about a year ago and it was dead then.  I'd be amazed if it hasn't lost more retailers during the last year.

Pie in the sky maybe but the best thing for that would be to use Freshney Place as a hosting place for some sort of entertainment complex with the surrounding High Street areas trying to capture those spilling out.  I suppose a smaller version of Xscape.  Otherwise I can't imagine it surviving much longer than a few years.

They say we have to get used to the new normal.

We have to move with the times like pedestrian city centres.

Well I got one hate going shopping , as been said before queuing to get into town finding a parking spot ( not always easy ) then queuing to pay.

I use Amazon a lot , a easy look on my tablet click what. I want and most times it's delivered to my home next day.

It's the future , we lost the fishing others lost the mines other work was found and so will the small shops who might disappear .

Supermarkets will expand into super stores and large shops will diverse to fit into what is required at the time.

Quoted from Posh Harry

Unfortunately it will take a lot of businesses to go to the wall before the rents will reduce. So many retail units are owned by massive investment companies and pension schemes nowadays that it makes very little difference when a few retail units sit empty.

Sad but true.

But those institutional investors need tenants to keep the income flowing. Without it their value takes a hit. And with it our pensions.

Smart investors will look at alternatives. Some will pull out and find some other asset class and others will redevelop their properties.

Quoted from BobbyCummingsTackle

We're going there!

There are some positive signs and possibly a good story coming out of the pandemic. Some councils (Trafford in Manchester and a couple of London boroughs for example) have used the lockdown to pedestrianise roads in their areas (and make cycle friendly) so that they've become more accessible and friendly. It's been a huge success.
High rents in town centres have also pushed people out of living on high streets and made them retail only zones, so many 'die' after shops close. Some councils are encouraging the building of flats and the coversion of shops to accomodation to encourage people back into high streets. This also breathes life back into the shops and offers opportunities for cafes and restaurants etc.
Rents are a huge issue but with the number of companies going to the wall during the pandemic rents have to reduce and this will encourage smaller businesses who wouldn't have been able to open with the old rent structure.

We should be looking for the positives in all this. Take the opportunity to build back better. And there are some good examples as you say.

Maybe in some cases a return to the old model of people living above the ‘workshop’ is part of the solution. Covid has made people realise that they can work from home, but many don’t have space that they can work in effectively. If we can enable more people to do that then there would be less commuting going on.

As you say, populating the high street brings footfall and after hours life.