Print Topic - Archive

Fishy Forum  /  The New Fishy  /  
Posted by: Trawler, January 30, 2020, 12:05am
https://forums.vitalfootball.co.uk/threads/financial-loss-2-24-million.102247/

Could be difficult times ahead for the imps.

Clive Nates on Twitter today “We all still have ambitious targets. It just means it's a different model that could take some time to transition to, is admittedly more difficult to succeed under but offers far more sustainable upside. In any event we were always going to need a period of consolidation.”
Posted by: KingstonMariner, January 30, 2020, 12:20am; Reply: 1
Some exceptional costs because of promotion (player bonuses, transfer fee add ins) according to the Price of Football thing on the Twitter. But also that year they had £1m compensation for the loss of the Cowleys to Huddersfield. Previous year they lost over £1m.

This year’s accounts will be telling. Are they going to end up like Scunny spending beyond their revenue or cut back (and risk dropping back down).
Posted by: GollyGTFC, January 30, 2020, 8:11am; Reply: 2
How much have they invested into their new training ground opposite RAF Scampton?
Posted by: TheRonRaffertyFanClub, January 30, 2020, 9:01am; Reply: 3
These clubs are like councils - brilliant at obtaining the grants and finance to “invest” in new buildings and facilities but useless in raising the finance to maintain and use them.
Posted by: diehardmariner, January 30, 2020, 9:22am; Reply: 4
My thoughts were very much like Golly's, how much is a result of investment in the training facility off the A15?

If that's what has caused it, fair enough.  That's an investment.

But if they've spaffed it up the wall on signings who were only good enough to take them to midtable of League One....that's a big risk.  I don't think they're in anything like a relegation scrap, but the teams below them all have games in hand and it wouldn't be unheard of for a team in their position to get dragged into it.
Posted by: GollyGTFC, January 30, 2020, 9:41am; Reply: 5
I do think they've spunked a lot of money on players and staff too. Seems they are going down the Peterborough model of investing in players who potentially have a sell on value. Seems like they invested to get to League One where they can attract better young players and will now tighten the budget.

I read somewhere that they got £1m for the Cowley's and a third of that amount went to the Cowley's themselves in lieu of performance bonus,

And they have clearly spent money on their new portacabin-less training ground. And they have plans to nearly double the size of the Stacey West Stand to increase capacity even though they are further along with new stadium plans than we are at present.

And anyway, the losses have been covered by share purchases rather than saddling the club with "benign" loans.
Posted by: TheRonRaffertyFanClub, January 30, 2020, 9:54am; Reply: 6
Quoted from diehardmariner
My thoughts were very much like Golly's, how much is a result of investment in the training facility off the A15?

If that's what has caused it, fair enough.  That's an investment.

But if they've spaffed it up the wall on signings who were only good enough to take them to midtable of League One....that's a big risk.  I don't think they're in anything like a relegation scrap, but the teams below them all have games in hand and it wouldn't be unheard of for a team in their position to get dragged into it.


An investment? The bricks and mortar maybe but unless that facility is highly instrumental in producing saleable assets, i.e. players, then it is a white and windswept elephant and a drain on resources. As part of a long term plan to be a Championship club perhaps it is justifiable on paper but if that plan falters even slightly in terms of income then problems arise. How many more Wembley appearances would it take to generate the sort of income they have had in the past few seasons and therefore sustain the enterprise?

The temptation is to spend income immediately on players who are not worth the money  simply to stand still in the league. The real way to make investment pay is to get a super scouting network and grow your own like Brentford, but then you run the risk of sliding down before your plan works. It is a conundrum and one that Town needs to solve as well before we get into a new ground, not after.

Posted by: TownSNAFU5, January 30, 2020, 10:09am; Reply: 7
Liverpool are the masters at having an expert scouting system (they keep track of 100,000 worldwide) and being patient at getting the right player at the right time,

Lincoln have probably tried to run before they can walk.  
Posted by: GollyGTFC, January 30, 2020, 10:15am; Reply: 8
Training ground just bricks and mortar???

What term did Clive Woodward have? Critical non- essentials.
Posted by: GollyGTFC, January 30, 2020, 10:27am; Reply: 9
Quoted from TownSNAFU5
Lincoln have probably tried to run before they can walk.  


They've invested and achieved 2 promotions (both championship winning) in 3 seasons. In that time they have sold several players on for a big profit. Even this month they have signed three 21-year olds who they obviously think can be developed and sold on for a profit.

To me that's a perfect model for a lower league club on limited means.

The difference between us and them is they invested money to sign the right blend experienced players and promising youngsters to deliver the initial success to make the model easier to work- i.e. achieve League One football. We've tried to do the same whilst the owner takes money out of our club.

We should be looking at Lincoln as an example of what we could be doing to deliver success. We can scoff as much as we want at them, but in the past couple of weeks they have played Bolton, Ipswich & Portsmouth in league matches whilst we've been playing the likes of Crawley and Stevenage.
Posted by: MarinerDevil, January 30, 2020, 10:36am; Reply: 10
I think if we had £2m in the bank from an amazing cup run, would we not want some of that spent on our crumbling infrastructure?  

If Lincoln are planning to sustain themselves at tiers 2/3 by turning youth into saleable assets then they need modern infrastructure to attract talent.  Seems a good investment to me, might as well fix the roof while the sun is shining.

The big test will be the next 3 years while they transition to this new plan and cut their playing budget.  We've seen how results can rapidly fall away when investment in the squad dries up.
Posted by: TheRonRaffertyFanClub, January 30, 2020, 10:51am; Reply: 11
Quoted from GollyGTFC


They've invested and achieved 2 promotions (both championship winning) in 3 seasons. In that time they have sold several players on for a big profit. Even this month they have signed three 21-year olds who they obviously think can be developed and sold on for a profit.

To me that's a perfect model for a lower league club on limited means.

The difference between us and them is they invested money to sign the right blend experienced players and promising youngsters to deliver the initial success to make the model easier to work- i.e. achieve League One football. We've tried to do the same whilst the owner takes money out of our club.

We should be looking at Lincoln as an example of what we could be doing to deliver success. We can scoff as much as we want at them, but in the past couple of weeks they have played Bolton, Ipswich & Portsmouth in league matches whilst we've been playing the likes of Crawley and Stevenage.


Yes, they will argue that is where the cash comes from Golly. Those were one-off injections that they have taken advantage of and that is fair enough. The crunch comes down the line when there are only the sell-ons to provide the income to cover costs and interest payments. They have had to change their money model and it sounds all nice and feasible - and it is - providing they can generate the income.

Posted by: GollyGTFC, January 30, 2020, 12:29pm; Reply: 12


Yes, they will argue that is where the cash comes from Golly. Those were one-off injections that they have taken advantage of and that is fair enough. The crunch comes down the line when there are only the sell-ons to provide the income to cover costs and interest payments. They have had to change their money model and it sounds all nice and feasible - and it is - providing they can generate the income.



How do you know this wasn't always their strategy. Invest in the short term until they reached League One and then go down the Peterborough route when they are in the 3rd tier and can attract better young players.

Their January business points to that. They've lost Toffolo for a big profit, offloaded 3 senior players on high wages, signed an experienced proven L1 goalscorer and 3 highly rated 21-year-olds.

Interest payments? Who said they were in debt? They lost £2,4m (of which £600k was performance bonuses and transfer add-on clauses for promotion), but they sold £1.4m of new share capitol and the rest was covered by cash reserves and guaranteed future income,

Given their player sales, net £666,666 from losing the Cowley's, 50% more TV money and increased gate receipts in League One I think they are going to be okay.

Posted by: Meza, January 30, 2020, 12:38pm; Reply: 13
Quoted from GollyGTFC


How do you know this wasn't always their strategy. Invest in the short term until they reached League One and then go down the Peterborough route when they are in the 3rd tier and can attract better young players.

Their January business points to that. They've lost Toffolo for a big profit, offloaded 3 senior players on high wages, signed an experienced proven L1 goalscorer and 3 highly rated 21-year-olds.

Interest payments? Who said they were in debt? They lost £2,4m (of which £600k was performance bonuses and transfer add-on clauses for promotion), but they sold £1.4m of new share capitol and the rest was covered by cash reserves and guaranteed future income,

Given their player sales, net £666,666 from losing the Cowley's, 50% more TV money and increased gate receipts in League One I think they are going to be okay.



Agree Golly and I've given you a tick.  I got red crossed for stating facts....😂.  
Posted by: Lincoln Mariner 56, January 30, 2020, 1:05pm; Reply: 14
Lincoln have a new training ground but it’s leased at a cost of £35k per annum and it’s been built on clay and susceptible to flooding and has already had to be returned.

Whilst the talk over here is that there model for next 5 years anticipated an initial loss which would if necessary be covered by increased investment from the South African connection on the board plus some increased local involvement.

Many rumours over here about how the Cowleys were given too much freedom to spend money, Gangmowergate re £35k new cutting equipment being just one. The announcement of McCombe leaving the club was allegedly a termination due to the sharing of Appleton’s training programs with the Cowleys.

They are trying to get older players off the books as a number on 4/5k per week hence Akinde leaving for no fee.

Unfortunately for me no sign of their bubble bursting just yet and I think in Nates they have one smart businessman running the show.
Posted by: nealeardleyscrossing, January 30, 2020, 1:29pm; Reply: 15
Some sense being spoken - and some guessing I think.

We lost over 2 million (price of being champions twice in 3 years)- But Investors put in 1.4 million, not loans either, 1 million for the Cowley's and also 700k for Toff, Andrade, O'Connor, Akinde (Akinde did command a fee - Why would we give him away? By my estimation thats nearly 3 million, plus a massive increase in commercial, now have a superstore in Centre of City which has quadrupled income. We are also building another tier on the Stacey West stand which will take capacity to 12k and increase matchday revenue.

The trainng ground has had teething problems but is a real selling point for new arrivals..We are trying to follow the Peterborough model, hence the signing of young players - We have no chance of keeping John - Jules though - Arsenal would never let him go! Our biggest problem is we are playing against some huge clubs with multi million pound strikers etc - Its a very hard league, we need 15pts and then I will relax a bit - But with Forest rumoured to be re-calling Walker though they have to pay a penalty I am concerned, we have just paid 150k for a striker, but will need to get another proven one - We are linked with the lad Swindon sent back to Rotherham and also a young lad from Man Utd..
Posted by: GollyGTFC, January 30, 2020, 1:43pm; Reply: 16
Some sense being spoken - and some guessing I think.

The trainng ground has had teething problems but is a real selling point for new arrivals.


Yeah, players joining Lincoln don't have to go anywhere near the City now apart from for a few hours on match day. Should really help sign players.
Posted by: TownSNAFU5, January 30, 2020, 2:11pm; Reply: 17

Just a general point - not directly linked to Lincoln.

The price of  massively over-spending, poor management/ownership and little or no investment is more critical these days.  Look at Bury, Bolton, Macclesfield, Chesterfield. Not including the ex-Prem teams that have ended in Div 1 (or Div 2).

Parodoxically, the financial rewards are greater in the Prem, and for returning to the Championship.This encourages teams to gambol, over-spend and go for it.  Derby being just one example.

Greed, ego and unrealistic expectations do not sit well with football club ownership.  Steady, measured progress is probably the best plan for success.
Posted by: Lincoln Mariner 56, January 30, 2020, 3:14pm; Reply: 18
[quote=140317]Some sense being spoken - and some guessing I think.

We lost over 2 million (price of being champions twice in 3 years)- But Investors put in 1.4 million, not loans either, 1 million for the Cowley's and also 700k for Toff, Andrade, O'Connor, Akinde (Akinde did command a fee - Why would we give him away?

Well you may be better informed than me but I was told by a current Lincoln player that a fee was not paid for Andrade or Akinde thus seems a bit odd as he has no reason to tell porkies.
Posted by: Yoda, January 30, 2020, 6:20pm; Reply: 19
Saw the Lincoln youth team play Clee Town there wasn’t anyone in their team who stood out.
Print page generated: June 4, 2020, 10:55am