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Quoted from Jarmo.Is.God

We are not as bad as it seems...

We are not great, and boring to watch, but David and Whitmore look okay to me, with Ohman back, we have 3 decent centre backs

We are however, lacking creativity big time. Losing Embo has been huge on the season, but MJ knows that, and I'm sure it will get sorted.

Upfront is the main problem, and again, Jolley isn't stupid, I'm sure he will be sorting it.

Be prepared for another steady season IMO, I don't think 1 more window can turn us into a play off side at all, but stick with Jolley and Limberick, and we will make another forward step next season.

Slate me and hit me with that x, it's fine, but 1 win last week didn't deserve the mad positivity we got if its going to go again after another defeat.

I'll go with that. But the club captain signing has to be more of a success than John Welsh!! (Don't know who at the club is responsible for signing players)

Quoted from Jarmo.Is.God

We are however, lacking creativity big time. Losing Embo has been huge on the season, but MJ knows that, and I'm sure it will get sorted.

Ah right, all we have to do is find another England u21 international willing to come on loan for a year and drag this shower close to his standard. Plenty of those floating about.

Sure he’ll get it sorted.

Quoted from The Boys Paddock

those 3 decent centre backs have contributed to 22 defeats....

Yeah true... Nothing to do with the midfield... numpty

Quoted from Teestogreen

I'll go with that. But the club captain signing has to be more of a success than John Welsh!! (Don't know who at the club is responsible for signing players)

100%, however I was delighted when he signed, but some signings just don't work

Quoted from ska face

Ah right, all we have to do is find another England u21 international willing to come on loan for a year and drag this shower close to his standard. Plenty of those floating about.

Sure he’ll get it sorted.

Doesn't have to be English, and doesn't have to be young, and doesn't have to be an international... just be able to create chances

agree, defence is more or less sorted, although perhaps a backup left back with league experience could come in whilst ring finds his feet...
Creativity is exactly what we are missing, embo was a huge loss, i really think if we had the creative players and played decent football on the deck not this aimless hoofing, dennis would have scored a few. I'm a fan of jolley but i am yet to see the fast attacking football he promised - today and other performances of late have looked very much like those under Russel Slade...

A club in our position financially can only be run successfully one way. Its like any Business starting out with little financial power, we must buy low sell high. We can't afford to buy high i.e. proven players/proven successful investments. Explained in terms of property we need to buy outdated, run down houses cheap and renovate them ourselves - selling for profit. We must gamble on young players and conference/ lower league successes in the hope they can make the step up because buying journeymen on their way down or just league 2 cast offs isn't going to get us anywhere beyond lower/mid table!

We have a lot of fantastic young players - clifton is testament to the fact that if given the chance they can shine, Ahkeem is still nursing an injury hence why he isn't really turning on the taps in terms of pace, but regardless he need the right football played, not aimless hopeful hoofs that he won't win in the air... Wright looked very promising today - and yet another player that proves that running at and beating your man is the way to go - it really isn't done enough in our team!

Quoted from Jarmo.Is.God

We are not as bad as it seems...

We are not great, and boring to watch, but David and Whitmore look okay to me, with Ohman back, we have 3 decent centre backs

We are however, lacking creativity big time. Losing Embo has been huge on the season, but MJ knows that, and I'm sure it will get sorted.

Upfront is the main problem, and again, Jolley isn't stupid, I'm sure he will be sorting it.

Be prepared for another steady season IMO, I don't think 1 more window can turn us into a play off side at all, but stick with Jolley and Limberick, and we will make another forward step next season.

Slate me and hit me with that x, it's fine, but 1 win last week didn't deserve the mad positivity we got if its going to go again after another defeat.

yep, agree

Quoted from 139847

agree, defence is more or less sorted, although perhaps a backup left back with league experience could come in whilst ring finds his feet...
Creativity is exactly what we are missing, embo was a huge loss, i really think if we had the creative players and played decent football on the deck not this aimless hoofing, dennis would have scored a few. I'm a fan of jolley but i am yet to see the fast attacking football he promised - today and other performances of late have looked very much like those under Russel Slade...

A club in our position financially can only be run successfully one way. Its like any Business starting out with little financial power, we must buy low sell high. We can't afford to buy high i.e. proven players/proven successful investments. Explained in terms of property we need to buy outdated, run down houses cheap and renovate them ourselves - selling for profit. We must gamble on young players and conference/ lower league successes in the hope they can make the step up because buying journeymen on their way down or just league 2 cast offs isn't going to get us anywhere beyond lower/mid table!

We have a lot of fantastic young players - clifton is testament to the fact that if given the chance they can shine, Ahkeem is still nursing an injury hence why he isn't really turning on the taps in terms of pace, but regardless he need the right football played, not aimless hopeful hoofs that he won't win in the air... Wright looked very promising today - and yet another player that proves that running at and beating your man is the way to go - it really isn't done enough in our team!

Good post.

But we can't play nice attacking football if we haven't got the players for it, and Embo was part of the plan to do that... We've had a bad season with injuries etc, so we've had to change our style of play accordingly.

You can't predict a big signing missing the full season, Cook missing majority of season, then Embo injury ending his season early, he's not a magician, but he's doing what he can, with the players and budget he has got...

Quoted from Jarmo.Is.God

Good post.

But we can't play nice attacking football if we haven't got the players for it, and Embo was part of the plan to do that... We've had a bad season with injuries etc, so we've had to change our style of play accordingly.

You can't predict a big signing missing the full season, Cook missing majority of season, then Embo injury ending his season early, he's not a magician, but he's doing what he can, with the players and budget he has got...

Agree with Butty. Jarmo, he still hasn't gone to the lower leagues in search of any value gems - Hurst did. Yes only 1/2 of his gambles payed off, but the likes of Kayden Jackson having great seasons after proved that even when it didn't work out at GTFC he still had a great eye for a player.

Quoted from 139847

agree, defence is more or less sorted, although perhaps a backup left back with league experience could come in whilst ring finds his feet...
Creativity is exactly what we are missing, embo was a huge loss, i really think if we had the creative players and played decent football on the deck not this aimless hoofing, dennis would have scored a few. I'm a fan of jolley but i am yet to see the fast attacking football he promised - today and other performances of late have looked very much like those under Russel Slade...

A club in our position financially can only be run successfully one way. Its like any Business starting out with little financial power, we must buy low sell high. We can't afford to buy high i.e. proven players/proven successful investments. Explained in terms of property we need to buy outdated, run down houses cheap and renovate them ourselves - selling for profit. We must gamble on young players and conference/ lower league successes in the hope they can make the step up because buying journeymen on their way down or just league 2 cast offs isn't going to get us anywhere beyond lower/mid table!

We have a lot of fantastic young players - clifton is testament to the fact that if given the chance they can shine, Ahkeem is still nursing an injury hence why he isn't really turning on the taps in terms of pace, but regardless he need the right football played, not aimless hopeful hoofs that he won't win in the air... Wright looked very promising today - and yet another player that proves that running at and beating your man is the way to go - it really isn't done enough in our team!

The defense may be sorted in terms of numbers but they can't defend for sh1t at times, very disorganized . I do agree with and get what you're saying though Butty

Bolton players on strike-wish ours were but it would be hard to tell if they were.

Quoted from 139847

agree, defence is more or less sorted, although perhaps a backup left back with league experience could come in whilst ring finds his feet...
Creativity is exactly what we are missing, embo was a huge loss, i really think if we had the creative players and played decent football on the deck not this aimless hoofing, dennis would have scored a few. I'm a fan of jolley but i am yet to see the fast attacking football he promised - today and other performances of late have looked very much like those under Russel Slade...

A club in our position financially can only be run successfully one way. Its like any Business starting out with little financial power, we must buy low sell high. We can't afford to buy high i.e. proven players/proven successful investments. Explained in terms of property we need to buy outdated, run down houses cheap and renovate them ourselves - selling for profit. We must gamble on young players and conference/ lower league successes in the hope they can make the step up because buying journeymen on their way down or just league 2 cast offs isn't going to get us anywhere beyond lower/mid table!

We have a lot of fantastic young players - clifton is testament to the fact that if given the chance they can shine, Ahkeem is still nursing an injury hence why he isn't really turning on the taps in terms of pace, but regardless he need the right football played, not aimless hopeful hoofs that he won't win in the air... Wright looked very promising today - and yet another player that proves that running at and beating your man is the way to go - it really isn't done enough in our team!

Can I ask if you went today as our defending was garbage.

Quoted from Mariner8

Agree with Butty. Jarmo, he still hasn't gone to the lower leagues in search of any value gems - Hurst did. Yes only 1/2 of his gambles payed off, but the likes of Kayden Jackson having great seasons after proved that even when it didn't work out at GTFC he still had a great eye for a player.

He has scouts out there, that's common knowledge, but a lot of good players are part time with a second job, meaning they end up costing a good amount of money on wages for them to quit the job they have, and some arent willing to give it up as it's a massive risk if it doesn't work out...

Doesn't mean he hasn't looked and tried

Quoted from Jarmo.Is.God

He has scouts out there, that's common knowledge, but a lot of good players are part time with a second job, meaning they end up costing a good amount of money on wages for them to quit the job they have, and some arent willing to give it up as it's a massive risk if it doesn't work out...

Doesn't mean he hasn't looked and tried

No it just means he hasn’t looked and tried hard enough.

Quoted from Jarmo.Is.God

We are not as bad as it seems...

Upfront is the main problem, and again, Jolley isn't stupid, I'm sure he will be sorting it.

.

I just hope Jolley 'sorting it' does not include him relying on Rose as one of next seasons strikers

Having a big budget isn't everything. Spending what you have wisely is, and having a style that will win you regular points is also a huge bonus. If it was all about money and flair Fulham wouldn't be heading back down into the Championship again after a disastrous single season in the Premiership.

Look, I'm not saying MJ is god like jarmo was.... sorry about that.

But the one time fenty backed him in the summer was for a striker, and 2 turned us down, Angol and Bowman.
After this, Jolley decided not to waste money on just anybody, and went for a free agent in Thomas who did well, just hasn't ended well.

If you haven't got a big enough budget, you struggle to sign good enough players

Quoted from Jarmo.Is.God

Look, I'm not saying MJ is god like jarmo was.... sorry about that.

But the one time fenty backed him in the summer was for a striker, and 2 turned us down, Angol and Bowman.
After this, Jolley decided not to waste money on just anybody, and went for a free agent in Thomas who did well, just hasn't ended well.

If you haven't got a big enough budget, you struggle to sign good enough players

It depends where you look as well as how much you spend. Bogle cost a fair fee, Podge was nothing. Which was the bargain?

Defence was very poor today, two shocking goals to concede.

We have no creativity in midfield.

We have no movement up front, and no natural finishers at the club.

We have very little pace anywhere in the side, though Max Wright looked useful when he came on. .

All in all I think we would need a large influx of quality in the close season to turn us into a competitive team. I'd say two good strikers and two quality midfield players at the very least.

The last few months have not been good enough there’s no arguing that, Embo was a big loss and Thomas too. Stand by that MJ did the best thing re Thomas though...if he isn’t going to commit to us, why bother playing him anymore. I’d possibly put Ohman in there too, who looked solid before his injury.

At the end of the day we’ve just lost a match against an experienced County that are fighting for their lives, whilst we have six products of the youth team in the match day squad. Not to mention the likes of Vernam, Whitmore etc who are still young lads. The loss is a negative, but the youth getting a chance is a big positive.

Quoted from Jarmo.Is.God

Look, I'm not saying MJ is god like jarmo was.... sorry about that.

But the one time fenty backed him in the summer was for a striker, and 2 turned us down, Angol and Bowman.
After this, Jolley decided not to waste money on just anybody, and went for a free agent in Thomas who did well, just hasn't ended well.

If you haven't got a big enough budget, you struggle to sign good enough players

Then ultimately Angol ended up on the bench for the Gimps...... says it all really!

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

It depends where you look as well as how much you spend. Bogle cost a fair fee, Podge was nothing. Which was the bargain?

I take your point, generally but £30k or £50k wasn't that much. The 'risk' if there was one, was giving Bogle a 3 year contract, which is why we were able to get a fee for him and nowt for Podge.

I'm not convinced the defence is anywhere near sorted.

1) We change the system far too much for it to resemble something that's settled.
2) The natural leader of the defence is 38, clearly on the decline and out of contract.
3) We no left footed central defensive option other than the one raised in point 2)
4) We have a real lack of pace in the back line, the only actual pace comes in the form of RHJ who Jolley won't give a settled position too and is also out of contract.
5)The much heralded Ohman, whilst dominant in the air, is a liability on the floor.
6) We don't have a left back/left wing back good enough for a side with aspirations to challenge at the top end of the division.

The only part of the defence I would say is settled is right-back.  That's a right-back in a back four.  Luke Hendrie is a quality right-back at this level and we would do well to improve on him.  He's not, however, a wing-back.  Left-back we need to upgrade on, sorry but Ring is not up to it.  Bar a major improvement over the summer, which I hope he produces, we may have to accept that it was just a bad signing.

In the middle, Ohman has the potential to be very, very good.  How he turns out is anyone's guess.  Hope for him comes in the form that Shaun Pearson was a liability on the floor at a similar stage of his GTFC career.   Collins is a spent force and I would be disappointed if we offer him a contract in all honesty.  Davis and Whitmore are very much about muchness in my eyes.  Davis I've not been convinced by all season.  Whitmore is limited but a warrior, of the two he's definitely the one I would prefer to have his contract extended.  RHJ is someone we should keep regardless of what position it's in.

The midfield pair of Hess and Clifton are absolutely fine, providing we play with either a creative force ahead of them or two proper wingers.  As a midfield pairing, they are the only area of the pitch I would say is settled and good enough for the next season.  Creativity or width, ideally both, is something we need to bring in urgently.

Up top we're miles off it.  Our strike force for next year is Cook, Cardwell, Vernam, Burrell and Rose.  I like Cook, I think Vernam is a talent waiting to be unleashed and the two youth team products are raw and exciting.  Cardwell, sadly, is not up to it.  The lad seems to have gone backwards this season and even when he makes some progress, he suffers an injury set-back.  Not one of the 5 are proven goalscorers.  None are out of contract either.  I can't see us going into the season with a glut of strikers on the books so got to expect at least one to be departing.

I like Jolley, I like the fact he's trying to build and develop something. I'm also mindful of the job he's got in hand and the suggestion that his budget is urine poor.  But for a season of transition and development, all I can really see he's developed is a midfield central partnership and not a lot else.  Next 3-4 months are absolutely massive.  Because so many are under contract and because the budget is weak, I don't see many coming in at all.  I think we'll rely quite heavily on the youth next season so it's essential that those that we do bring in are able to guide appropriately.

Quoted from diehardmariner

I'm not convinced the defence is anywhere near sorted.

1) We change the system far too much for it to resemble something that's settled.
2) The natural leader of the defence is 38, clearly on the decline and out of contract.
3) We no left footed central defensive option other than the one raised in point 2)
4) We have a real lack of pace in the back line, the only actual pace comes in the form of RHJ who Jolley won't give a settled position too and is also out of contract.
5)The much heralded Ohman, whilst dominant in the air, is a liability on the floor.
6) We don't have a left back/left wing back good enough for a side with aspirations to challenge at the top end of the division.

The only part of the defence I would say is settled is right-back.  That's a right-back in a back four.  Luke Hendrie is a quality right-back at this level and we would do well to improve on him.  He's not, however, a wing-back.  Left-back we need to upgrade on, sorry but Ring is not up to it.  Bar a major improvement over the summer, which I hope he produces, we may have to accept that it was just a bad signing.

In the middle, Ohman has the potential to be very, very good.  How he turns out is anyone's guess.  Hope for him comes in the form that Shaun Pearson was a liability on the floor at a similar stage of his GTFC career.   Collins is a spent force and I would be disappointed if we offer him a contract in all honesty.  Davis and Whitmore are very much about muchness in my eyes.  Davis I've not been convinced by all season.  Whitmore is limited but a warrior, of the two he's definitely the one I would prefer to have his contract extended.  RHJ is someone we should keep regardless of what position it's in.

The midfield pair of Hess and Clifton are absolutely fine, providing we play with either a creative force ahead of them or two proper wingers.  As a midfield pairing, they are the only area of the pitch I would say is settled and good enough for the next season.  Creativity or width, ideally both, is something we need to bring in urgently.

Up top we're miles off it.  Our strike force for next year is Cook, Cardwell, Vernam, Burrell and Rose.  I like Cook, I think Vernam is a talent waiting to be unleashed and the two youth team products are raw and exciting.  Cardwell, sadly, is not up to it.  The lad seems to have gone backwards this season and even when he makes some progress, he suffers an injury set-back.  Not one of the 5 are proven goalscorers.  None are out of contract either.  I can't see us going into the season with a glut of strikers on the books so got to expect at least one to be departing.

I like Jolley, I like the fact he's trying to build and develop something. I'm also mindful of the job he's got in hand and the suggestion that his budget is urine poor.  But for a season of transition and development, all I can really see he's developed is a midfield central partnership and not a lot else.  Next 3-4 months are absolutely massive.  Because so many are under contract and because the budget is weak, I don't see many coming in at all.  I think we'll rely quite heavily on the youth next season so it's essential that those that we do bring in are able to guide appropriately.

Very fair summary. Several points of qualification, however.

1. Ring will not get significantly better over a preseason. Back up only.

2. I confess that, at 22, Cardwell has failed to develop and my confidence last year was misplaced. Loan out for regular games and some serious mental and physical toughening.

3. Burrell. Only 18. Time to develop, possible loan?

4. Rose. Fitness concerns mean careful monitoring over the summer. Keep close to the squad, nurse him through preseason and increase game time gradually. Do not loan out.

5 Vernam. Vital to our development next season.

6. Cook. Reliable back up only.

7. Max Wright. No more loans! Tell him we believe in his talent and he is as important as Vernam and Rose.

No 'marquee' signings to disrupt the dressing room, just a proven goalscorer/brute/target man.

Low budget means 3 new signings at most. Goalscorer, playmaker and left back. An offer over 100 grand for Macca would be nice.

What I would be interested to know is how the budget for next season compares with this season.

If it's there or thereabouts I would expect the departures of Welsh and Thomas to accommodate the signing of at least two established players, possibly a midfielder and a striker. The new lads coming up from the youth team will take a wage but I can't imagine even collectively they'll break the bank. Hooper will no doubt be leaving and then there's any potential departure of Collins, Whitmore, Davis, RHJ... Even with two departing you've got enough of a wage to bring in another established player.

We'll never know the budget details but I've got a horrible feeling that the budget will be absolutely jaff all. Hope I'm wrong on that one.

Quoted from diehardmariner

What I would be interested to know is how the budget for next season compares with this season.

If it's there or thereabouts I would expect the departures of Welsh and Thomas to accommodate the signing of at least two established players, possibly a midfielder and a striker. The new lads coming up from the youth team will take a wage but I can't imagine even collectively they'll break the bank. Hooper will no doubt be leaving and then there's any potential departure of Collins, Whitmore, Davis, RHJ... Even with two departing you've got enough of a wage to bring in another established player.

We'll never know the budget details but I've got a horrible feeling that the budget will be absolutely jaff all. Hope I'm wrong on that one.

I seem to recall that JF admitted , at a recent forum , that he set the budget too low. We also have Mitch Rose off the books and as well as the potential departures you mentioned I also think Woolford will go. We also lost two loanees in Embleton and Pringle , so it is quite possible that MJ could bring in two long term loanees.

Yep, forgot about the wage of Rose to be honest.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jolley kept Woolford though, he seems to like what he brings to the set-up.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Yep, forgot about the wage of Rose to be honest.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jolley kept Woolford though, he seems to like what he brings to the set-up.

Personally I think if he offers Woolford another contract then he needs his bumps testing.. it's clear for all to see he offers very little to the team now, certainly if we are to play the "high pressing, high tempo" Mr Jolley speaks of...
What we do need is some experience in the squad though because otherwise we'll end up with a bunch of kids...and you won't win anything with kids!!!🙄🙄

From what we had at the beginning of the season, he's got two loanees to replace plus Rose, Thomas, Welsh and a left back (two went, Ring came in). In addition, there's any that are released and he has added 5 youth who will surely not be on big money. Whitehouse will be like a new signing but I'm guessing there's room for 5/6 more plus loans.

Quoted from diehardmariner

What I would be interested to know is how the budget for next season compares with this season.

If it's there or thereabouts I would expect the departures of Welsh and Thomas to accommodate the signing of at least two established players, possibly a midfielder and a striker. The new lads coming up from the youth team will take a wage but I can't imagine even collectively they'll break the bank. Hooper will no doubt be leaving and then there's any potential departure of Collins, Whitmore, Davis, RHJ... Even with two departing you've got enough of a wage to bring in another established player.

We'll never know the budget details but I've got a horrible feeling that the budget will be absolutely jaff all. Hope I'm wrong on that one.

He gets 1,000,000 a year to cover everything I would imagine that this includes maintenance, travel etc too...
^fact from board-member.

This whole thread is the start of convincing ourselves that by July we will be world beaters. Only to have a first game like Forest Green and smash our illusions.

Quoted from Mariner8

Agree with Butty. Jarmo, he still hasn't gone to the lower leagues in search of any value gems - Hurst did. Yes only 1/2 of his gambles payed off, but the likes of Kayden Jackson having great seasons after proved that even when it didn't work out at GTFC he still had a great eye for a player.

How do you know he hasn’t? Plus we’re investing in our youth.

Quoted from Mariner8

He gets 1,000,000 a year to cover everything I would imagine that this includes maintenance, travel etc too...
^fact from board-member.

Total employment costs last season were £2.6m. Admittedly that covers all management, admin and grounds staff as well as players, but I'd be very surprised if non-playing staff were over 60%.

Quoted from Bristol Mariner

How do you know he hasn’t? Plus we’re investing in our youth.

Yeah I think that's an unfair stick to beat Jolley with.

Last summer he had a gamble on Louis Robles who was very much in that rough diamond category.  It didn't work out but he had a go at it and I can't imagine it was the most expensive gamble.   He's also brought in two Swedish players who are new to this league and indeed country.

The traditional route of finding non-league players, signing them cheap, developing them and selling them for a big profit is great and I was disappointed to see us abandon it so quickly a few years back.  But the problem is that everyone is on this gravy train now.  As a result the price of the non-league players and indeed their wage demands are greater.

There's more than one way to build something.  The foreign market, the non-league scene, our youth set-up, players from a higher level with a point to prove or players released from academies, there's plenty of options out there for us.

Quoted from diehardmariner

There's more than one way to build something. The foreign market, the non-league scene, our youth set-up, players from a higher level with a point to prove or players released from academies, there's plenty of options out there for us.

If it was that simple every club would be doing it though.
We got lucky with Bogle. Some clubs have been luckier and others less so. If we are looking at a non-league potential diamond you can be certain other clubs will be as well. And it comes down to the same old thing. What can we offer that other clubs can’t?? The answer unfortunately is ‘not a lot’. There is no ‘quick fix’ as much as we would love one. I love the fact that the youth set up seems to be productive. I just hope the finances they save are channeled back into the budget.

Quoted from Civvy at last

If it was that simple every club would be doing it though.
We got lucky with Bogle. Some clubs have been luckier and others less so. If we are looking at a non-league potential diamond you can be certain other clubs will be as well. And it comes down to the same old thing. What can we offer that other clubs can’t?? The answer unfortunately is ‘not a lot’. There is no ‘quick fix’ as much as we would love one. I love the fact that the youth set up seems to be productive. I just hope the finances they save are channeled back into the budget.

Vardy signed from lower leagues by Neil Aspin for Halifax for £15000 when he was about a year older than Max Wright. A rare and oft quoted example of picking up rough diamonds. Aspin had tracked him for some time. How extensive is our scouting and who might be tracking our own talent? It does seem that Jolley is protecting our assets by doling out contracts and reducing highlights of reserve and youth games on the OS.

Quoted from GrimRob

This whole thread is the start of convincing ourselves that by July we will be world beaters. Only to have a first game like Forest Green and smash our illusions.

Forest green are a great example of how to play football and get results.

Tore us apart here, and look at them now, as much as many hate the club, and the background, they have done very very well on the pitch

Quoted from diehardmariner

What I would be interested to know is how the budget for next season compares with this season.

If it's there or thereabouts I would expect the departures of Welsh and Thomas to accommodate the signing of at least two established players, possibly a midfielder and a striker. The new lads coming up from the youth team will take a wage but I can't imagine even collectively they'll break the bank. Hooper will no doubt be leaving and then there's any potential departure of Collins, Whitmore, Davis, RHJ... Even with two departing you've got enough of a wage to bring in another established player.

We'll never know the budget details but I've got a horrible feeling that the budget will be absolutely jaff all. Hope I'm wrong on that one.

I have an inkling that once again it's going to be " competitive " ;)