Just want to make one thing clear, I do think it’s time for change in the boardroom. John has done his best, of that I have no doubt but his reign has to be judged on the pitch. That is the reason the club exists and performance has been woeful, I think he’s been around the boardroom for about 12 years now. 6 of them in league 2 / div 4, 6 of them in the conference, appalling record.

I’ve had a little look at the clubs accounts, I’m far from an expert so apologies if I’ve got things wrong. But playing devils advocate, and to the boards credit, the club appears to be well run. Debts have been reduced. I’ve tried to have a look at other clubs in the league, Mansfield for example owe £5.8m and appear to be operating well beyond their means. They are reliant on the Radford’s cash injections.

Please feel free to pick my observations apart, but we don’t appear to be badly run off the pitch.

Profit for last season, £1.06m.

Wage bill up over 400k year on year to £2.08m, includes non playing staff.

No investment from JF, taken 200k back.

A quick look at the books suggests the club is living within its means, profit all coming from the player sale, presumably Bogle.

Without that sale, would have broken about even.

I’ve had to make an assumption, a guess as accounts are not broken down into playing / non playing budget.

I’ve assumed of the wages of £2.08m, 70 percent are players wages, so £1.456m divided between a first team squad of 30 (we know they’re not all on the same money) would mean players earn an average net of £48500 per year, or £933 per week.

Not sure we aren’t paying the going rate? Appreciate there are assumptions there.

Thought it was worth a look with people suggesting we don’t pay the going rate, cut corners etc.

I’d be interested to understand what the bonus structure was/is for the players.


From a P&L point of view the club is run relatively sensibly but if you take out the income from on the Bogle sale it illustrates how tight things can be.

I’d focus on the balance sheet and cash position that will tell you the true picture of where we are.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

I’d be interested to understand what the bonus structure was/is for the players.

Well it won't be costing too much at the moment if it's related to wins or goals 😭

The BBC says that the average wage in league 2 is £49,600, so you are not far wrong. Obviously some will be on more and some less but i have no reason to believe that we are cutting corners on wages. Attracting players to the area must play a part in it. Non league players will come to the club and be impressed with the facilities. Established league players not so much and the area can be a bit of a turn off i would imagine. It must be easier to attract players in the North West and London for example with all the teams there are in those regions. Our closest catchment area is Yorkshire and it is not exactly brimming with top sides nowadays. Perhaps we don't get the same trickle down that other areas enjoy.

It's because we have relatively high attendances for the low level we've been playing at. Our attendances should give us a comfortable budget for the division we are playing in. Granted they are dropping, but with anything to get behind we could easily average 5k plus.

It's more than just finances. You only have to look at the fans forum, Matt Dean issue and the checkatrade nonsense to know the board are out of touch.
it looks like he's allowing the club to tread water till he can get his money back, either by getting a stadium built in the wrong place or a little bit of football fortune. We'd be much more likely to get some football fortune if the board invested in the team. One seat on the board is consistently putting money into the club with no strings and that is the Trust.

Quoted from ginnywings

The BBC says that the average wage in league 2 is £49,600, so you are not far wrong. Obviously some will be on more and some less but i have no reason to believe that we are cutting corners on wages. Attracting players to the area must play a part in it. Non league players will come to the club and be impressed with the facilities. Established league players not so much and the area can be a bit of a turn off i would imagine. It must be easier to attract players in the North West and London for example with all the teams there are in those regions. Our closest catchment area is Yorkshire and it is not exactly brimming with top sides nowadays. Perhaps we don't get the same trickle down that other areas enjoy.

At our level I reckon the socioeconomic and geography factors impact on our ability to recruit.

E.G. There are more players based around London and the South as the population is denser the better ones don’t have to travel as far to earn good money the ones with less ability have to look further afield.

I would imagine Luton where able to recruit Berry and Collins from Cambridge & Crawley without either having to move house. Add to that their ability to pay better wages from good gates and there you go.

Also with the younger lads are you going to move away from your home family & friends to move to Grimsby? Some will some don’t.

I do think if the board were to retain Russell Slade, we would be looking at a huge reduction in matchday income. I think that ship has sailed, attendances yesterday only just over 3k is awful, of RS isn’t dismissed, I can see sub 3k gates soon. I like Russ as a bloke, but I can’t stand his football. I’m a season ticket holder, I’ve missed probably 5/6 games already this season, two as I couldn’t make myself leave the house to watch the crap served up. Been away the others, I know I’d be better off paying game by game but I want to support the club financially. I don’t like Slade’s style of football, I could just about tolerate it if we scored goals, or picked up the points.

From a balance sheet point of view, as well as a football point of view, Russ must go i’m afraid.

Quoted from 75

I do think if the board were to retain Russell Slade, we would be looking at a huge reduction in matchday income. I think that ship has sailed, attendances yesterday only just over 3k is awful, of RS isn’t dismissed, I can see sub 3k gates soon. I like Russ as a bloke, but I can’t stand his football. I’m a season ticket holder, I’ve missed probably 5/6 games already this season, two as I couldn’t make myself leave the house to watch the crap served up. Been away the others, I know I’d be better off paying game by game but I want to support the club financially. I don’t like Slade’s style of football, I could just about tolerate it if we scored goals, or picked up the points.

From a balance sheet point of view, as well as a football point of view, Russ must i’m afraid.

Think there are a lot of season ticket holders who are in the same boat as you. I know I am.

Quoted from Grantham_Mariner

Think there are a lot of season ticket holders who are in the same boat as you. I know I am.

And we’ve already paid for our tickets! Honestly haven’t been able to even give them away when I’ve been on hols!

Quoted from Grantham_Mariner

Think there are a lot of season ticket holders who are in the same boat as you. I know I am.

Same, add to that going to a home game takes up my whole day I’m finding hard to get excited about next week never mind next season

Quoted from HertsGTFC

At our level I reckon the socioeconomic and geography factors impact on our ability to recruit.

E.G. There are more players based around London and the South as the population is denser the better ones don’t have to travel as far to earn good money the ones with less ability have to look further afield.

I would imagine Luton where able to recruit Berry and Collins from Cambridge & Crawley without either having to move house. Add to that their ability to pay better wages from good gates and there you go.

Also with the younger lads are you going to move away from your home family & friends to move to Grimsby? Some will some don’t.

Hate this argument. There are also more teams in the London area and it is massively more expensive to live there.
Grimsby, Cleethorpes and the surrounding area has population to produce professional footballers. We are well within the range of players from Leeds, hull and Sheffield. How do Scunny attract players?

Having just read this, why the intercourse is Fenty taking 200k out of the club ??

Quoted from headingly_mariner

Hate this argument. There are also more teams in the London area and it is massively more expensive to live there.
Grimsby, Cleethorpes and the surrounding area has population to produce professional footballers. We are well within the range of players from Leeds, hull and Sheffield. How do Scunny attract players?

Because they’re half an hour closer to the cities in Yorkshire, Manchester and the northern East Midlands? Places that young men would rather live and go out to socialise. Why would a single bloke in his twenties move to GY for a two year contract?

Quoted from gytone

Having just read this, why the intercourse is Fenty taking 200k out of the club ??

Because of the benign loan and the club had made money.

Quoted from headingly_mariner

Hate this argument. There are also more teams in the London area and it is massively more expensive to live there.
Grimsby, Cleethorpes and the surrounding area has population to produce professional footballers. We are well within the range of players from Leeds, hull and Sheffield. How do Scunny attract players?

Money.

Quoted from gytone

Having just read this, why the intercourse is Fenty taking 200k out of the club ??

To be fair, the club owe him £2m plus. He’s just taken some back, and some time ago. Anything that makes us less reliant on him is a good thing. I’ve no issues with selling Dembele for £1m and him taking the lot.

Quoted from LH

Because they’re half an hour closer to the cities in Yorkshire, Manchester and the northern East Midlands? Places that young men would rather live and go out to socialise. Why would a single bloke in his twenties move to GY for a two year contract?

We have some beautiful areas around Grimsby. The wolds on our doorstep, Cleethorpes is a great place and up and coming. A great beach, next to the sea. Nice areas like Waltham, Laceby, New and Old Waltham, Humberston etc. Many ex players who aren’t from the area have settled here.

Quoted from LH

Because they’re half an hour closer to the cities in Yorkshire, Manchester and the northern East Midlands? Places that young men would rather live and go out to socialise. Why would a single bloke in his twenties move to GY for a two year contract?

There is something in what you say but players move to where theyll feel most comfortable.
I doubt a player from Leeds is going to be desperate to move to Cambridge/Exeter or the like because they're a city. I'd expect them to prefer a move here. I'd say it's more to do with the deal that's on the table and word of mouth. If the manager is a sharp object or they don't like a coach or their best mates mate has put a word in for the other club, they'll more than likely move to another club. Swings in roundabouts. I'd say money is the main reason, obviously

Quoted from LH

Because they’re half an hour closer to the cities in Yorkshire, Manchester and the northern East Midlands? Places that young men would rather live and go out to socialise. Why would a single bloke in his twenties move to GY for a two year contract?

Because they want to play in the football league. What the young men in the Grimsby and Cleethorpes area? Do they not play football?

There is no way this area can't produce footballers or attract the required talent. It's just an excuse for being shite!

Quoted from headingly_mariner

Hate this argument. There are also more teams in the London area and it is massively more expensive to live there.
Grimsby, Cleethorpes and the surrounding area has population to produce professional footballers. We are well within the range of players from Leeds, hull and Sheffield. How do Scunny attract players?

So do I to be honest but it's feeling like it's becoming a fact.

Yes it's more expensive to live in London but salaries reflect that even in football, To work in London you don't have to live there from where I live it's 25 mins to Kings Cross on the train.

Yes we can produce talent but we can't recruit a manager to be big enough to trust in it,

We are well within reach of Leeds, Hull and Sheffield but so are numerous other places some more appealing some just as run down.

How do Scunny attract players? A charismatic manager, League 1 football and possibly a chance of promotion, better salaries I assume and it's 20 odd miles closer to some of the places you describe than Grimsby is.

We don’t pay as much as other clubs do locally. Who would want to come and play for such a dysfunctional club? I’m a contractor myself and in my industry (mostly aviation but I’m currently working in rail) and if you know someone who has worked somewhere before you drop them a message to find out what it’s like. Even if it’s a fortnight or months contract it can help make a decision. There are some companies that really struggle to attract people because they are such awful places to work.

I can’t see that being any different for footballers. In the last two seasons in the Conference I think that the fans made a huge difference to this. There has been understandable fan apathy creeping in lately with the poor football on offer and the PR disasters of the last few months.  

Whilst I appreciate we do have some lovely areas around here I’m not sure how bothered young single lads from outside town are about them - speaking as a lad in his 20s who has spent the majority of the last ten years working all over the country. I do wonder where Town meet new players or staff in order to attract them to the club though. If we do meetings at BP are we hoping they don’t turn around before they get to Aldi on Cleethorpe Road?

It was a much different world in football when the players came here and settled.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

So do I to be honest but it's feeling like it's becoming a fact.

Yes it's more expensive to live in London but salaries reflect that even in football, To work in London you don't have to live there from where I live it's 25 mins to Kings Cross on the train.

Yes we can produce talent but we can't recruit a manager to be big enough to trust in it,

We are well within reach of Leeds, Hull and Sheffield but so are numerous other places some more appealing some just as run down.

How do Scunny attract players? A charismatic manager, League 1 football and possibly a chance of promotion, better salaries I assume and it's 20 odd miles closer to some of the places you describe than Grimsby is.

Scummy are paying some serious money. Lad left Bradford city and got a 50% increase. Funded by multimillionaire owner.

Alan Buckley attracted the players, starting in the old Division 4 and upwards. George Kerr, Dave Booth,  Brian Laws...how did they manage it? Could they, along with a stable and helpful board have actually sold the club to these players? We know the PR at the club currently is beyond terrible, it can't be helping with some areas of recruitment.
As I said in a previous post, any player worth their salt will do their homework on a club, if they were to do a search and find that Fans Forum video on Youtube what would their reaction be?
It's the same problems being brought up, and the answer is the same..a new setup needed; root and branch, Manager and Board.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

So do I to be honest but it's feeling like it's becoming a fact.

Yes it's more expensive to live in London but salaries reflect that even in football, To work in London you don't have to live there from where I live it's 25 mins to Kings Cross on the train.

Yes we can produce talent but we can't recruit a manager to be big enough to trust in it,

We are well within reach of Leeds, Hull and Sheffield but so are numerous other places some more appealing some just as run down.

How do Scunny attract players? A charismatic manager, League 1 football and possibly a chance of promotion, better salaries I assume and it's 20 odd miles closer to some of the places you describe than Grimsby is.

Look at the players we signed when we were in the conference. We had no problem getting players like Bogle, Hearn, Disley, Nolan, Nsiala, Amond and others to sign for us in a lower league. It's just an excuse for being shite and for being run poorly.
Under Hurst we took promising players from leagues below and improved the players that were brought in. We've gone back to signing journeymen on free transfers.

Quoted from RoboCod

Alan Buckley attracted the players, starting in the old Division 4 and upwards. George Kerr, Dave Booth,  Brian Laws...how did they manage it? Could they, along with a stable and helpful board have actually sold the club to these players? We know the PR at the club currently is beyond terrible, it can't be helping with some areas of recruitment.
As I said in a previous post, any player worth their salt will do their homework on a club, if they were to do a search and find that Fans Forum video on Youtube what would their reaction be?
It's the same problems being brought up, and the answer is the same..a new setup needed; root and branch, Manager and Board.

Please when I say this I am not trying to patronize you but times have changed as have players salaries, agents fees, players expectations, Bosman etc...

Quoted from headingly_mariner

Look at the players we signed when we were in the conference. We had no problem getting players like Bogle, Hearn, Disley, Nolan, Nsiala, Amond and others to sign for us in a lower league. It's just an excuse for being shite and for being run poorly.
Under Hurst we took promising players from leagues below and improved the players that were brought in. We've gone back to signing journeymen on free transfers.

We where a big fish in a small pond in the conference, Scott Brown went on record saying one of the reasons he came to GTFC was that we where better payers. Agree with the Hurst bit but in non league we signed just as many journeyman and got quite a few wrong.

What we don't know about the non league days is the players that would not come to GTFC for whatever reason, Hurst actually set his sights higher than some of the lads you listed above but couldn't persuade them. As an isolated example though I loathe the cheating bar steward it's a fact that Hurst went in for Akinde before he went to Barnet where his goals helped get them up but he wouldn't come as he wanted to be closer to London which is where his roots where.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

We where a big fish in a small pond in the conference, Scott Brown went on record saying one of the reasons he came to GTFC was that we where better payers. Agree with the Hurst bit but in non league we signed just as many journeyman and got quite a few wrong.

What we don't know about the non league days is the players that would not come to GTFC for whatever reason, Hurst actually set his sights higher than some of the lads you listed above but couldn't persuade them. As an isolated example though I loathe the cheating bar steward it's a fact that Hurst went in for Akinde before he went to Barnet where his goals helped get them up but he wouldn't come as he wanted to be closer to London which is where his roots where.

We can look at specific instances were we have lost out on a player, but there are plenty of players who are in the area or would move. Of course some players aren't a success, but we signed enough quality to get out of that league and many of the players are now playing higher up. There are negatives to our location, but it's a very minor issue that's trotted out to excuse our failure.

You need investment...or at least a wealthy benefactor to guarantee/underwrite any debts, like JF does. Aiming to be self sustainable should be the way for every club but unfortunately that doesnt necessarily bring success.
Last season we had increased gates and a big sale of a player to make us profitable...that is not the norm....remove the Omar money and we were pretty much even....but that was on the back of returning to the league and increased gates that came with it.

Bills generally rise so even just the utility bills for BP, Cheapside etc year on year eat into your budget and if you are stagnant on the pitch your income doesnt grow that much.

Base a budget on what would be your expected income....you would have to budget conservatively if you didnt have a wealthy backer(s) to avoid running up debt....so lets say an average of 3500 on the home gate......start the season poorly and drop below that average figure as a result then you are in trouble straight away...then come January and you need new players where does the money come from ?
You are already down on projected income so where do you go ?

Yes it could go the other way but your initial conservative budget would have to be spent very wisely in order to recruit a decent squad to get you off to a good start. I think we all think we could have built a more balanced, smaller and better quality squad than the one we currently have but its not that simple is it...so many factors that we couldnt even dream of ,as unless you "are in the game" you just dont know the nitty grtty of it.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Please when I say this I am not trying to patronize you but times have changed as have players salaries, agents fees, players expectations, Bosman etc...

Consider me patronised. Why exactly have Accrington currently got a better handle on players salaries, agents fees, players expectations, Bosman etc in these 'changed times' than us?
Why have Burton Albion moved up the leagues so well recently, how are they dealing so well with players salaries, agents fees, players expectations, Bosman etc so much better than us?
How have Scunny managed to get successive Chairmen to both throw money at the club AND deal with players salaries, agents fees, players expectations, Bosman etc and move upwards while ours throws millions at our club and takes us out of the League?

Get a manager and board with vision in and the players will sign.I don't see the changing times as being the crippling factors that keep us in the basement division, a properly run board will deal with that, I see the managerial appointments of Rodger, Law, Newell and Woods as the slow but sure downfall of this club to where we are today.
I look at the board and the management team and I see a bunch of fraudulent chancers, don't give them any more excuses like agent fees and Bosman for their monumental member-ups.

Quoted from moosey_club

You need investment...or at least a wealthy benefactor to guarantee/underwrite any debts, like JF does. Aiming to be self sustainable should be the way for every club but unfortunately that doesnt necessarily bring success.
Last season we had increased gates and a big sale of a player to make us profitable...that is not the norm....remove the Omar money and we were pretty much even....but that was on the back of returning to the league and increased gates that came with it.

Bills generally rise so even just the utility bills for BP, Cheapside etc year on year eat into your budget and if you are stagnant on the pitch your income doesnt grow that much.

Base a budget on what would be your expected income....you would have to budget conservatively if you didnt have a wealthy backer(s) to avoid running up debt....so lets say an average of 3500 on the home gate......start the season poorly and drop below that average figure as a result then you are in trouble straight away...then come January and you need new players where does the money come from ?
You are already down on projected income so where do you go ?

Yes it could go the other way but your initial conservative budget would have to be spent very wisely in order to recruit a decent squad to get you off to a good start. I think we all think we could have built a more balanced, smaller and better quality squad than the one we currently have but its not that simple is it...so many factors that we couldnt even dream of ,as unless you "are in the game" you just dont know the nitty grtty of it.

Having a warchest as you suggest is entirely possible without a JF character on board. Other clubs are run without a wealthy benefactor.

A better regime in charge wouldn't have alienated the fanbase so your budget based on 3500 could easily have been one based on 4-5000. I think with more sense of ownership there'd be more patience with a run of bad results. All genuinely in it together would make a massive difference.

Quoted from RoboCod

Consider me patronised. Why exactly have Accrington currently got a better handle on players salaries, agents fees, players expectations, Bosman etc in these 'changed times' than us?
Why have Burton Albion moved up the leagues so well recently, how are they dealing so well with players salaries, agents fees, players expectations, Bosman etc so much better than us?
How have Scunny managed to get successive Chairmen to both throw money at the club AND deal with players salaries, agents fees, players expectations, Bosman etc and move upwards while ours throws millions at our club and takes us out of the League?

Get a manager and board with vision in and the players will sign.I don't see the changing times as being the crippling factors that keep us in the basement division, a properly run board will deal with that, I see the managerial appointments of Rodger, Law, Newell and Woods as the slow but sure downfall of this club to where we are today.
I look at the board and the management team and I see a bunch of fraudulent chancers, don't give them any more excuses like agent fees and Bosman for their monumental member-ups.

I would not give Slade another penny either.

Re the clubs,  Accrington is just very well run I think, it appears to the the case when you see their accounts. I recall Burton has a benefactor who is willing to part with money. Yeah get the bit about Scunny but they have been at a higher league level than us for a good while which has generated them more 3rd part income and also anyone investing might even get some money back as their stadium development though now at Glanford Park is actually close to happening.

Quoted from headingly_mariner

We can look at specific instances were we have lost out on a player, but there are plenty of players who are in the area or would move. Of course some players aren't a success, but we signed enough quality to get out of that league and many of the players are now playing higher up. There are negatives to our location, but it's a very minor issue that's trotted out to excuse our failure.

Who are these players?

Interestingly at times in the Hurst days many players used to get picked up on the way to away games from places like Ferry Bridge etc..and commute in from places like Leeds etc..

I think people might be more inclined to sign if when they got to the Town they drove over the flyover and down Cleethorpe Rd with a bag over their heads and the might get a better impression, add to that the crime rate, drug problem, poor infrastructure etc.. etc.. etc.. and maybe it's not that bad a place to up sticks and move to if you are working on a max two year fixed term contract,    

Quoted from HertsGTFC

At our level I reckon the socioeconomic and geography factors impact on our ability to recruit.

E.G. There are more players based around London and the South as the population is denser the better ones don’t have to travel as far to earn good money the ones with less ability have to look further afield.

I would imagine Luton where able to recruit Berry and Collins from Cambridge & Crawley without either having to move house. Add to that their ability to pay better wages from good gates and there you go.

Also with the younger lads are you going to move away from your home family & friends to move to Grimsby? Some will some don’t.

That must work with northern players in reverse, surely? It is not far from Leeds, or the east Midlands to here, is it? I don't know how many of our players live locally, but they are all on short term contracts so I don't blame them for not moving here if we allow it.

If the wages are right (or maybe more than right if we want to get our first choice targets) and the club has ambition then players will come.

The entrance into Grimsby on the A180 is a disgrace, so meet them at Forest Pines, get them to sign and then take them into Town via the A46.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

Who are these players?

Interestingly at times in the Hurst days many players used to get picked up on the way to away games from places like Ferry Bridge etc..and commute in from places like Leeds etc..

I think people might be more inclined to sign if when they got to the Town they drove over the flyover and down Cleethorpe Rd with a bag over their heads and the might get a better impression, add to that the crime rate, drug problem, poor infrastructure etc.. etc.. etc.. and maybe it's not that bad a place to up sticks and move to if you are working on a max two year fixed term contract,    

You only have to look just across the humber bridge and see how many players are playing in the lower leagues that have come through Hull's youth set up and never made it there. Scunny are also capable of bringing their own players through, so why can't we? These are players that are in the area or from the area.

Omar Bogle moved to the area, we sold him for a million pound. Siriki Dembele has moved to the area. Players will come, we just have to be better at finding them and keeping them.

We are a fourth tier club so we have to improve players and deal in players from lower leagues. Look at the feature in the times about Toto Nsiala today.

Hurst had a real knack of making good signings and slowly improving the squad with up and coming talent.

Is the reason we are excrement becuase nobody wants to play in Grimsby?

Quoted from headingly_mariner

You only have to look just across the humber bridge and see how many players are playing in the lower leagues that have come through Hull's youth set up and never made it there. Scunny are also capable of bringing their own players through, so why can't we? These are players that are in the area or from the area.

Omar Bogle moved to the area, we sold him for a million pound. Siriki Dembele has moved to the area. Players will come, we just have to be better at finding them and keeping them.

We are a fourth tier club so we have to improve players and deal in players from lower leagues. Look at the feature in the times about Toto Nsiala today.

Hurst had a real knack of making good signings and slowly improving the squad with up and coming talent.

Is the reason we are excrement becuase nobody wants to play in Grimsby?

Not completely a factor for sure but I do agree the manager makes the difference. In my 34 year career I have been lucky I've had 5 proper jobs and all of them because I wanted to work with my then boss or within a particular team rather than a badge or a brand.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

Having a warchest as you suggest is entirely possible without a JF character on board. Other clubs are run without a wealthy benefactor.

A better regime in charge wouldn't have alienated the fanbase so your budget based on 3500 could easily have been one based on 4-5000. I think with more sense of ownership there'd be more patience with a run of bad results. All genuinely in it together would make a massive difference.

You need actual money or you need gaurantees to secure finance to get started....income comes in over the course of a season, week to week...while the board may not be investing huge sums into the club , they would if we had a disastrous season and lost money....they (JF at least) approve the budget and agree to cover shortfalls.....if we failed to hit the projected income what would happen ?  Whip round with the supporters to find 100k...200k...500k.How often do you think the faithful would put up with that ?
The club assetts arent that valuable are they so securing loans against the remainder of any value could either prove difficult or leave us wide open to admin if monies loaned against assets arent repaid.
Supporter ran club pie in the sky currently and thats before you have to negotiate the current major shareholder out of the club which would of course cost money also.

I don't want success in the fact in demanding promotions. I don't want to be the world's best team. I just want a club, team, squad to be proud of. I want a team built of men who try to play football the right way. If we could run the club just like Exeter and others then why shouldn't we? We might not be made of money, we may not get many if any promotions. But at least we'll be run well, we will be loved and welcomed and the club will have the fans at heart. UTM

I agree with moosey. I think a fan owned club is a pipe dream at this time. Maybe there is a middle ground involving both sides?

I don't know what the answer is but i think it's time to stop raking over the coals and either support the team or not. I have had as good a moan as the next man but i can't see what can be done other than just trust that we get in some better players and have an upturn in results. I don't think there is the option of a new manager on the horizon any time soon.

I am going to see who comes in this month and what effect it has on the team, while keeping my powder dry. I've said my piece and i'm still angry after yesterday's capitulation, but i think it's time to step back and see what action/reaction we get from those in charge and on the pitch.

Quoted from moosey_club

You need actual money or you need gaurantees to secure finance to get started....income comes in over the course of a season, week to week...while the board may not be investing huge sums into the club , they would if we had a disastrous season and lost money....they (JF at least) approve the budget and agree to cover shortfalls.....if we failed to hit the projected income what would happen ?  Whip round with the supporters to find 100k...200k...500k.How often do you think the faithful would put up with that ?
The club assetts arent that valuable are they so securing loans against the remainder of any value could either prove difficult or leave us wide open to admin if monies loaned against assets arent repaid.
Supporter ran club pie in the sky currently and thats before you have to negotiate the current major shareholder out of the club which would of course cost money also.

Surely a fan owned town would see a good number of season tickets being bought and some crowdfunding done at the start of the season. We would have less room to change managers and players as often, which might be a blessing.
At the minute the board don't put anything in above and beyond the money that comes in.

Quoted from ginnywings

I agree with moosey. I think a fan owned club is a pipe dream at this time. Maybe there is a middle ground involving both sides?

I don't know what the answer is but i think it's time to stop raking over the coals and either support the team or not. I have had as good a moan as the next man but i can't see what can be done other than just trust that we get in some better players and have an upturn in results. I don't think there is the option of a new manager on the horizon any time soon.

I am going to see who comes in this month and what effect it has on the team, while keeping my powder dry. I've said my piece and i'm still angry after yesterday's capitulation, but i think it's time to step back and see what action/reaction we get from those in charge and on the pitch.

I think you're mainly correct Ginny but would love to see the boardroom occupied by some vibrant characters rather than Stadler & Waldorf's boring cousins. They've only invested small amounts yet seem to be enjoying all the trappings of directorship while the fans pick up the tab.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

I think you're mainly correct Ginny but would love to see the boardroom occupied by some vibrant characters rather than Stadler & Waldorf's boring cousins. They've only invested small amounts yet seem to be enjoying all the trappings of directorship while the fans pick up the tab.

what are they exactly ?

Quoted from headingly_mariner

Surely a fan owned town would see a good number of season tickets being bought and some crowdfunding done at the start of the season. We would have less room to change managers and players as often, which might be a blessing.
At the minute the board don't put anything in above and beyond the money that comes in.

so we are just left with buying another 20-30% of the shares to gain overall control, paying off JF's loans , assuming he wont just write them off, and then finding a business model and organisational structure  to run the club professionally which also accommodates the many fans views/ opinions.

Quoted from moosey_club

so we are just left with buying another 20-30% of the shares to gain overall control, paying off JF's loans , assuming he wont just write them off, and then finding a business model and organisational structure  to run the club professionally which also accommodates the many fans views/ opinions.

Absolutely. I don't think the fans will take over until something catastrophic happens. I think fan ownership would rely on Fenty walking away and writing his loans off. I don't think for one minute the fans should buy him out.

So for £30k each year, may go up in line with season ticket price rise in future years, the trust get a place on the board and allowed to run a bar or bars. Do the trust get to keep any profit made?

What I don't get is this..........

I work for a privately owned company, not a PLC every so often I attend a board meeting where we have 5 directors and a chairman. I'm involved in a number of business's within the group who have separate boards and some of them have 6 directors and a chairman. We operate a one man one vote system constitution in line with corporate governance rules where often the chair can have a casting vote. No director has more than 50% .

So re the board of GTFC.........

- If we don't have a chairman are we actually operating within the bounders of corporate law?

- If we are a PLC which we are detailed as at companies house should we not have non exec directors?

- In real terms are we even a PLC as I don't think I can call my broker and buy shares.

This all seems like a boys club to me.
  

Quoted from Gaffer58

So for £30k each year, may go up in line with season ticket price rise in future years, the trust get a place on the board and allowed to run a bar or bars. Do the trust get to keep any profit made?

After the initial 30k i believe the trust can do as it chooses with its money.  

Quoted from HertsGTFC

What I don't get is this..........

I work for a privately owned company, not a PLC every so often I attend a board meeting where we have 5 directors and a chairman. I'm involved in a number of business's within the group who have separate boards and some of them have 6 directors and a chairman. We operate a one man one vote system constitution in line with corporate governance rules where often the chair can have a casting vote. No director has more than 50% .

So re the board of GTFC.........

- If we don't have a chairman are we actually operating within the bounders of corporate law?

- If we are a PLC which we are detailed as at companies house should we not have non exec directors?

- In real terms are we even a PLC as I don't think I can call my broker and buy shares.

This all seems like a boys club to me.
  

I'm not an expert in company law but have some knowledge through my job.  My thoughts:

A chairman is presumably appointed at each meeting as we don't have a nominated one.  Certainly a private company need not appoint a chairman; maybe there are similar rules for PLCs that do not trade their shares on recognised exchanges,
I'm not aware that a plc has to have non-exec directors.  Maybe the FTSE listed companies must have these.
A PLC does not have to trade its shares on the Stock Exchange, AIM / other exchanges - there are further requirements if a company wishes to trade its shares on these exchanges.
The Trust shareholding and the shares held by non-directors prevent our club being an old boys club.  And any shareholder has a right to speak at the AGM.  (I'm playing devil's advocate here - aside from the Trust rep on the board, it is effectively an old boys club)

To be fair, re. the £200k I think it was explained at the fan’s forum that JF lent the club an extra £200k to cover the associated costs of getting to playoffs and the final. I’m fairly sure that the £200k he took out was just a repayment of that extra loan.

Quoted from davmariner

To be fair, re. the £200k I think it was explained at the fan’s forum that JF lent the club an extra £200k to cover the associated costs of getting to playoffs and the final. I’m fairly sure that the £200k he took out was just a repayment of that extra loan.

That was my understanding too but it makes better reading to say he took it and bought an Aston Martin.  :-/

Quoted from paulgtfc

I'm not an expert in company law but have some knowledge through my job.  My thoughts:

A chairman is presumably appointed at each meeting as we don't have a nominated one.  Certainly a private company need not appoint a chairman; maybe there are similar rules for PLCs that do not trade their shares on recognised exchanges,
I'm not aware that a plc has to have non-exec directors.  Maybe the FTSE listed companies must have these.
A PLC does not have to trade its shares on the Stock Exchange, AIM / other exchanges - there are further requirements if a company wishes to trade its shares on these exchanges.
The Trust shareholding and the shares held by non-directors prevent our club being an old boys club.  And any shareholder has a right to speak at the AGM.  (I'm playing devil's advocate here - aside from the Trust rep on the board, it is effectively an old boys club)

Ta!

Quoted from davmariner

To be fair, re. the £200k I think it was explained at the fan’s forum that JF lent the club an extra £200k to cover the associated costs of getting to playoffs and the final. I’m fairly sure that the £200k he took out was just a repayment of that extra loan.

Almost right, although the sum he lent was only about £35k. The extra £165k, who knows where that has gone.

Quoted from davmariner

To be fair, re. the £200k I think it was explained at the fan’s forum that JF lent the club an extra £200k to cover the associated costs of getting to playoffs and the final. I’m fairly sure that the £200k he took out was just a repayment of that extra loan.

Looking like a waste of money and effort at the moment... I remember most saying that its great to be back in the league,, is it ?  lets face it there are not many that are happy at the moment, and at least 2000 cannot be bothered to go now,, and by the look of the players body language neither can they :-/

Quoted from moosey_club

After the initial 30k i believe the trust can do as it chooses with its money.  

Indeed.

Quoted from ginnywings

Maybe there is a middle ground involving both sides?

Unfortunately, I don't think that could really be feasible. It would mean that, ultimately, the wealthier benefactors who are effectively bankrolling the club/guaranteeing loans etc wouldn't have the complete control over what was done with their money. I can't see many people willing to put in their money without any control.

I know German teams are half-owned by the fans (by law, I believe?), but the whole set up of the game over there is very much different and I don't think they have nearly as many professional full-time clubs as we do.

Regrettably, as long as one club can be bankrolled by somebody wealthy, then the others potentially can't compete without the same. It's a real problem that so few clubs are self-sustaining, but I don't think it has ever really been very different - if you read Bob Lincoln's book, there is plenty of information in there about how the board were funding the debts even back in Victorian times!

If even a little more of the lucre raining down on the Premier clubs made its way down to the lower division clubs, it might be a different prospect, but I can't see any prospect of this ever happening.

The difficulty with our board at present is in the event you wanted to motion a vote of no confidence due to being unhappy with how the Club is being run who exactly do you aim it at and who does the aiming?