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Quoted from Marinerz93

NATO YES, EU Army governed by Brussels NO.

If we stayed in the EU the plan is that as it becomes federal we would concede control of our forces and they will take control and do what they like, as they have already stated they need an EU Army as a show of force to Russia, also they would be able to deploy our forces under Other EU generals.

I've seen this first hand in Afghanistan both in Kabul and Kandahar where other EU countries put in a higher officer rank to dictate operations take overall control. Also whilst serving the EU service personnel are paid an extra £70 a day, the British government refused this payment but other countries took it. Anyone who knows about military spending will know how much it spirals out of control especially if you have a government that wants to prove itself.

So you're saying this extra £70 a day is wrong, or not justified?

You think we have real freedom of action under NATO? Ultimately, yes, a federal Europe would mean loss of sovereignty. The reality is we have no real say and are the Americans poodle. I'd rather be part of something where we have a say, that is closer to home. But as it is we're going to be out of the EU so I don't know why people are worried about the EU getting on with it.

PS, the fact there are EU countries not part of NATO shows that there is justification for an EU army. For example, what's caused more tension with Russia, the Baltic states join NATO or Finland remaining out of NATO?

I suspect that the countries not spending enough on defence are doing so not to deliberately undermine NATO which I assume they freely joined, than simple economic choice about where they spend their money. Might not be the right choice but ....

PPS on the one hand you're complaining about NATO members not spending enough and in the other breath complain about them spending too much (the extra £70 a day pay). Sounds like you're just a Europhobe who likes to complain.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

So you're saying this extra £70 a day is wrong, or not justified?

You think we have real freedom of action under NATO? Ultimately, yes, a federal Europe would mean loss of sovereignty. The reality is we have no real say and are the Americans poodle. I'd rather be part of something where we have a say, that is closer to home. But as it is we're going to be out of the EU so I don't know why people are worried about the EU getting on with it.

I felt the £70 a day was wrong, you are paid a wage by your country as a serviceman any other money should go to projects that benefit those countries were operations are being undertaken.

The UK is a major player and contributor to NATO and is highly regarded by the Americans even though we get dragged into some of their ventures, but that is down to mainly weak or self serving politicians. We didn't get involved with Vietnam so this poddle thing is more recent, even Thatcher had a go at the Yanks when they didn't support us initially over the Falklands.

If the UK Forces was absorbed into a federal Europe we wouldn't have a say, our forces would be deployed by Brussels, the worrying thing for me is the stance they are taking with Russia. So even an EU army without UK could still cause issues later down the road.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

PS, the fact there are EU countries not part of NATO shows that there is justification for an EU army. For example, what's caused more tension with Russia, the Baltic states join NATO or Finland remaining out of NATO?

I suspect that the countries not spending enough on defence are doing so not to deliberately undermine NATO which I assume they freely joined, than simple economic choice about where they spend their money. Might not be the right choice but ....

PPS on the one hand you're complaining about NATO members not spending enough and in the other breath complain about them spending too much (the extra £70 a day pay). Sounds like you're just a Europhobe who likes to complain.

The money comes from money paid in by NATO members, you maybe right that some of these countries may not be paying enough on defence because of their own economic issues.

It's funny that you get painted as a phobe when you don't like something, in this case something that is an institution that is against democracy and has nailed it colours to the mast as heading for federalism but more like a dictatorship. You do realise that the EU will make rules and regulations and nation states will have to comply without a say. Maybe your an Europhile and will take what ever the EU dictates with no regard for democracy as long as you get your Belgian chocolates and Champagne.

Being deployed by Brussels would be ace. Think how good the rat packs would be if Europe did them rather than UK companies.

Enjoy your frogs legs and snails 😉
OUT MEANS OUT

Quoted from MidnightMariner

Enjoy your frogs legs and snails 😉
OUT MEANS OUT

Thank you for that insightful contribution. I bet you were a hit at the Oxford Union.

Quoted from Marinerz93

The money comes from money paid in by NATO members, you maybe right that some of these countries may not be paying enough on defence because of their own economic issues.

It's funny that you get painted as a phobe when you don't like something, in this case something that is an institution that is against democracy and has nailed it colours to the mast as heading for federalism but more like a dictatorship. You do realise that the EU will make rules and regulations and nation states will have to comply without a say. Maybe your an Europhile and will take what ever the EU dictates with no regard for democracy as long as you get your Belgian chocolates and Champagne.

I called you a Europhobe because despite the fact we won't be in the EU you keep bringing up issues about the EU that won't concern us, like the possibility of an EU army.

I'm pro-EU in principle because I'm a realist about Britain's place in the world. The final nail in our coffin as a world power was hammered in over Suez.

Come all this talk of an EU army is just dangerous fantasy.

If we were still in the EU, we could always have vetoed any EU Army. Does seem odd to get so excited about this, however, if you aren't getting all excited about our continuing membership of Nato.

The Future of Europe PDF is interesting, not particularly for the defence stuff, but for many of the other issues. First of all, the idea of a European Monetary Fund to help countries during economic crisis is a good (and obvious one). Perhaps they've realised that the punishment of Greece was a really, really bad idea - shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted, admittedly, but it seems they are going the right way.

Consolidated corporate taxes and information sharing is also very obvious, especially with the megacorporations dodging their obligations across Europe. One or two of the tax haven countries would suffer (Ireland/Luxembourg/Netherlands especially), but screw them - they've been screwing the rest of us over for their own benefit for years.

In fact, nothing really to complain about in that document (from a quick scan through), unless you've got a bee in your bonnet about a potential small contribution to an EU army. Oh, and the freedom of movement thing, of course.

Anyway, it turns out that the freedom of movement thing will probably be OK if you're rich or work for a bank:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/14/david-davis-seeks-reassure-city-transfer-workers-after-brexit

I'd imagine the multinationals will also go by this as well and the definition of 'senior' workers will prove to be rather lax.

Quoted from Grim74

Come all this talk of an EU army is just dangerous fantasy.

Why should you care? We'll be out of the EU.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

I called you a Europhobe because despite the fact we won't be in the EU you keep bringing up issues about the EU that won't concern us, like the possibility of an EU army.

I'm pro-EU in principle because I'm a realist about Britain's place in the world. The final nail in our coffin as a world power was hammered in over Suez.

23 countries have signed up to integrate their armies into a European Army, with chain of command in Brussles, with control over deployment and mobilization. Plans for this go back as far as 2015 and with this new formation it has been acknowledged that this could undermine NATO, to be part of NATO all members agreed to spend 2% of GDP on defence, since 2006 countries such as Germany have not met this obligation, this stands out because Germany has the forth largest gdp in the world so it can't say it can't afford it. So if it can't be bothered to honour it's 2% gdp spending obligation on NATO how can it find money to fund EU Army. The Czechs and Romanians have given a full brigade size unit to the Germans to use in the German Rapid Response Force so both those units will fall under German high command. This has further bearing with German law, article 35 on the use of Armed Forces. You also have Macron calling for a shared defence budget.

What the EU does with it's newly formed Army will have a direct bearing on us, if they face up to Russia like they have been voicing you bet we will be dragged in. You've got absolute loons in Verhofstadt and Juncker who believe they are more powerful than they are.

So you are a Europhile, and like you I am a realist in where I see the UK's place in the world, I know we aren't a super power but we are a very powerful nation regarded by most of the known world, it's just a shame others don't see it. Maybe it's because we have been brow beaten for so long by nobody's in Brussels, that'll soon change. Europhiles like yourself are a bit like the wife constantly put down and brow beaten by her angry ex, and when she leaves him she realises she was better off without him all along. It will take time, and we will take a couple of knocks but like chumbawumba we will get up again.

Quoted from Maringer

The Future of Europe PDF is interesting, not particularly for the defence stuff, but for many of the other issues. First of all, the idea of a European Monetary Fund to help countries during economic crisis is a good (and obvious one). Perhaps they've realised that the punishment of Greece was a really, really bad idea - shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted, admittedly, but it seems they are going the right way.

A bit of an understatement about how the EU treated Greece, Greece was the sacrificial lamb to protect bonds in Portugal, Ireland, Spain and I think Italy. It was done to stop a bank run that would collapse all the major banks in Europe, especially Germany.

[youtube]rGvZil0qWPg[/youtube]

I would recommend you watch the whole clip but the important part about what happened to Greece is at 12:30 onwards.

I know what happened with Greece. I've discussed this in the past in other threads - you can't have a currency union without a fiscal union and the ECB treatment of Greece was disgraceful, all to protect the German and French banks. Before the EU referendum, I actually noted that this would be the only thing which would make me think leaving the EU was worthwhile decision.

Ultimately, I took the selfish view that the catastrophic damage to our economy of leaving wasn't a worthwhile exchange to be away from the EU, despite the ECB treatment of Greece. There is some separation between the EU and the Eurozone as well so they aren't exactly the same thing. As I noted earlier, it seems they've realised they ballsed up the situation with Greece (well, some of them have, in any case) so we shouldn't see such an event occurring again - not that it will help a whole generation of Greeks who have been massively impoverished by the whole debacle. Still much better to be inside the tent pissing out.

KM
YOU CAN BE A RIGHT PRI CK

Quoted from MidnightMariner

KM
YOU CAN BE A RIGHT PRI CK

Why because he does not agree with your view ?

He does not agree with my view but he respects it like I respect he can have a different view to me.

I don't know what is going to happen, but i can tell you what is happening to me, right now. The raw materials for my business are going up almost monthly since we voted for Brexit. Timber sheet materials have probably risen by a good 40% in the last year alone. Another small example is G clamps. I buy a lot of these and for ages they were £1.95 per unit. Bought some about 6 weeks ago-£2.35 per unit. Bought some more last week-£2.50 per unit. That's over 25% rise in less than 2 months and that is just one of the small items i have to buy on a regular basis. I now have 2 choices- suck it up and accept less of a profit margin, or pass on the extra to my customer, who will in turn have to pass it on to her customers or also suck it up. When i complain at the almost monthly increases at my suppliers, all i hear is it's the Brexit effect. Sick of it to be honest.

Still, all the Poles are going home, so that makes everything alright.

Ginny if the EU was just for trade we would be in it forever,

They unelected ones just keep adding to their war chest all the time,

We do not have control over much now but soon we will not have control of our own army,

Things will be difficult for a year or two then things will be a lot better,

Trust me I am not a conservative or a non chairman. :)

Quoted from grimsby pete

Ginny if the EU was just for trade we would be in it forever,

They unelected ones just keep adding to their war chest all the time,

We do not have control over much now but soon we will not have control of our own army,

Things will be difficult for a year or two then things will be a lot better,

Trust me I am not a conservative or a non chairman. :)

Just like this country then.

Sorry Pete, but leaving Europe was a stupid idea when it was voted for and it is still a stupid idea.

Quoted from ginnywings

I don't know what is going to happen, but i can tell you what is happening to me, right now. The raw materials for my business are going up almost monthly since we voted for Brexit. Timber sheet materials have probably risen by a good 40% in the last year alone. Another small example is G clamps. I buy a lot of these and for ages they were £1.95 per unit. Bought some about 6 weeks ago-£2.35 per unit. Bought some more last week-£2.50 per unit. That's over 25% rise in less than 2 months and that is just one of the small items i have to buy on a regular basis. I now have 2 choices- suck it up and accept less of a profit margin, or pass on the extra to my customer, who will in turn have to pass it on to her customers or also suck it up. When i complain at the almost monthly increases at my suppliers, all i hear is it's the Brexit effect. Sick of it to be honest.

Still, all the Poles are going home, so that makes everything alright.

I appreciate and respect your views, however when the EU started fishing quotas and allowing other countries fishing our waters I and hundreds like me lost our jobs on the fish docks as quotas where cut time and time again, last in first out. I know several fish merchants who went bust and I know of two who killed themselves, one being a lad dads I used to talk to whilst waiting to pick up the bought kits for my gaffer. I think his name was Pope. When I worked on the fish docks in the 80's we still had trawlers, now we have one small inshore fishing boat I think.

[youtube]JPKO3O4y4Mo[/youtube]

Also EU money has been used to move companies / factories to other countries meaning UK job losses.

Also with the uncontrolled influx of tradesman, I know many different trades have been undercut and lost work or lost earnings due to lack of work.

On the flip side if we get a trade deal with other countries some of the materials you mentioned may end up being a lot cheaper, I know not helpful now.

If more foreigners do go back then that will surely mean that you aren't being undercut and become a lot busier.

Quoted from Maringer

I know what happened with Greece. I've discussed this in the past in other threads - you can't have a currency union without a fiscal union and the ECB treatment of Greece was disgraceful, all to protect the German and French banks. Before the EU referendum, I actually noted that this would be the only thing which would make me think leaving the EU was worthwhile decision.

Ultimately, I took the selfish view that the catastrophic damage to our economy of leaving wasn't a worthwhile exchange to be away from the EU, despite the ECB treatment of Greece. There is some separation between the EU and the Eurozone as well so they aren't exactly the same thing. As I noted earlier, it seems they've realised they ballsed up the situation with Greece (well, some of them have, in any case) so we shouldn't see such an event occurring again - not that it will help a whole generation of Greeks who have been massively impoverished by the whole debacle. Still much better to be inside the tent pissing out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMQ887VNrIc&index=22&list=WL

Quoted from ginnywings

Just like this country then.

Sorry Pete, but leaving Europe was a stupid idea when it was voted for and it is still a stupid idea.

Its not like this country at all Ginny if we do not like the government we can vote them out/

Quoted from Marinerz93

I appreciate and respect your views, however when the EU started fishing quotas and allowing other countries fishing our waters I and hundreds like me lost our jobs on the fish docks as quotas where cut time and time again, last in first out. I know several fish merchants who went bust and I know of two who killed themselves, one being a lad dads I used to talk to whilst waiting to pick up the bought kits for my gaffer. I think his name was Pope. When I worked on the fish docks in the 80's we still had trawlers, now we have one small inshore fishing boat I think.

Also EU money has been used to move companies / factories to other countries meaning UK job losses.

Also with the uncontrolled influx of tradesman, I know many different trades have been undercut and lost work or lost earnings due to lack of work.

On the flip side if we get a trade deal with other countries some of the materials you mentioned may end up being a lot cheaper, I know not helpful now.

If more foreigners do go back then that will surely mean that you aren't being undercut and become a lot busier.

I'm from a family of fishermen and fish dock workers, so i know first hand what happened.

I also respect your views, but i don't agree with them. I'm just pointing out what it means to me personally-not moaning as we lost fair and square in a democratic vote and as with most big decisions in life, some will benefit and some won't, but i firmly believe we were better off in Europe. Will be interesting to see how it all pans out over the coming years and i hope you, Grim and Pete etc are right that we made the correct choice.

Quoted from Maringer

I know what happened with Greece. I've discussed this in the past in other threads - you can't have a currency union without a fiscal union and the ECB treatment of Greece was disgraceful, all to protect the German and French banks. Before the EU referendum, I actually noted that this would be the only thing which would make me think leaving the EU was worthwhile decision.

Ultimately, I took the selfish view that the catastrophic damage to our economy of leaving wasn't a worthwhile exchange to be away from the EU, despite the ECB treatment of Greece. There is some separation between the EU and the Eurozone as well so they aren't exactly the same thing. As I noted earlier, it seems they've realised they ballsed up the situation with Greece (well, some of them have, in any case) so we shouldn't see such an event occurring again - not that it will help a whole generation of Greeks who have been massively impoverished by the whole debacle. Still much better to be inside the tent pissing out.

Unfortunately due to EU regulation that zip didn't work properly because it was made in Italy and the business that made it is protected by the EU so you got splash back on your Italian shoes and now there is layer of urine inside your tent.

[youtube]yhYKUPvujho[/youtube]

Trade with the EU it has been in steep decline but we are still the EU biggest market, 16 billion in German cars, our trade with the rest of the world has been rising sharply, our economy will be just fine.

Good Lord. That bullshite Brexit propaganda movie? You're trying to quote that as a source of valid information?

A film produced by Durkin, a right-wing propagandist whose main claim to fame is his disingenuous attempt to claim that global warming is some sort of a scam. The clip you show comments from Matt Ridley (eminent zoologist but who has no one clue about economics - he was the Chairman of Northern Rock when it went bust and has shown not one iota of shame for his incompetence in running it into the ground. Next is a comment by the director of the IEA (right-wing think tank, doesn't reveal who funds it), then a well-known eurosceptic businessman. This is followed by Lawson - incompetent chancellor whose deregulation of the banks helped to cause the 2008 financial crisis. Oddly enough, he's another climate-change denier (as is Ridley). Next is the editor of The Sunday Telegraph, an advocate of flat taxes (always a good indication that somebody is a right-wing loon - if the Telegraph editorship wasn't enough), followed by the founder and Director of the Adam Smith Institute which, surprise surprise, is a neoliberal think tank which doesn't reveal the source of it's funding. Next, David Davies - halfwitted Brexiteer whose incompetence has been something to behold. Next? Michael Howard. Yep, Michael flipping Howard. Next person is, I think (looking at the cast list on IMDB) Ruth Lea former Director of the Centre for Policy Studies a - you've guessed it - right-wing think tank which doesn't reveal who funds it. Also works for the Institute of Directors - another famously right-wing body. Next, Daniel Hannan, former journalist for right-wing papers, now a long-time anti Europe Tory MP. Farage, FFS next. Nothing needs to be said about him.

So, what have we got so far? An extremely right-wing and biased bunch of commentators making one-sided over-simplified statements with nothing to back them up.

Up to this point of the film, all that has been said is that the EU exports a lot to us and also that our trade with the rest of the world is increasing at a greater rate than our trade with the EU. No mention of the fact that we have a massive trade deficit with both the EU and the rest of the world. There is then something about exporters needing to comply with regulations of the destination country. After 40 years, our regulations are exactly the same as those of the EU. When we leave, we're going to have to pretty much copy them wholesale because it would be too time-consuming and expensive to write our own! Not to mention the fact that the EU will remain our largest trading partner, so we'll need to hold to their regulations in any case.

After that, a bizarre section about the 'value of trade deals' that other countries have in comparison to the EU. THE WHOLE flipping IDEA OF THE FREE MARKET IS THAT YOU DON'T NEED TO HAVE A TRADE DEAL WITH FELLOW MEMBERS!!!!! Sorry, had to shout there, because that whole scene with impressive sounding numbers made absolutely no sense whatsoever. Glib nonsense designed to impress those who don't understand the topic.

Then the claim (without evidence) that being EU members means that you are disadvantaged because you can't have your own trade deals with the big economies elsewhere in the world. Hate to have to point this out yet again but, as a small country with few natural resources and with little to export these days, any deal bashed out with the big economies isn't necessarily going to end up in our favour. The power of being part of the EU is that no-one messes with you when it comes to trading - no specific deals are required because everyone wants a piece of the action of the world's wealthiest and largest trading bloc.

Next, you get Steve Baker, another Tory MP headbanger saying that we'll be able to negotiate trade deals very quickly once we leave the EU - NO WE WON'T! It takes years to negotiate trade deals and we've got nobody with any experience of such negotiations as it has been left to the EU for decades. He's as deluded as Davies on this point.

Davies made the most half-witted comment, of course. Talking about the UK's 'buccaneering spirit'. He's so dim he doesn't realise that he's saying we are good at piracy.

The last minute or so of the clip is the various talking heads already mentioned saying how stagnant Europe is and how leaving will allow us to spread our wings or some such platitude. This being the case, why is growth in the EU now so much higher than the UK just a year later then?

Anyway, the most obvious point from this propaganda piece is that there was not one mention of geography. Europe is close, everywhere else is really far away. To ignore or try to hide the fact that Europe will remain by far our largest trading partner as in this clip really misses the biggest point of all, especially when we have such a huge trade deficit and no industry or natural resources to turn this around.

The fact that people have apparently been swayed by clips such as that is really depressing.

Right on cue the King Jeremy Corbyn of the so far left it hurts of the remoaners cries foul but is far more guilty than any Brexitier in their Europhile bias.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/yAPbRxA.gif[/img]

You said there wouldn't be an EU army 100% it'll never happen, the plans have been in since 2015 are now it's happening what do you say now.

Also you fail every time to discuss Verhofstadt and Juncker the two most powerful EU politicians directing the EU and what their vision is and how they are going about it, how they came to power and what they are earning.

How do you feel that the commission is going to take power away from every country and they'll decide what is law and how much money and when they want it from countries.

Talk about the future of Euorpe and where it is headed because all the remoaning scaremongering isn't coming true just like they claimed when they burst a blood vessel about joining the Euro.

Bottom line for me is our laws are made by our consent and not by people who don't care about us, our immigration is decided by who we need not who can come when they want, that our country is free to trade with who ever we want and I want closer ties to the British commonwealth.The CAP and CFP both work against the UK and the CAP is going to screw over British farmers even more.

The EU has destroyed what was left of Grimsby after the cod wars, to me that is unforgivable. They destroyed Greece and what about Camerons I'll get a deal, the EU chewed him up and spat him out. People saw what the EU was all about, had they conceded the EU vote would have been completely different. You hate Farage because everything he has said is happening, from the EU army to how the EU is moving more to a dictatorship.

Quoted from ginnywings

I'm from a family of fishermen and fish dock workers, so i know first hand what happened.

I also respect your views, but i don't agree with them. I'm just pointing out what it means to me personally-not moaning as we lost fair and square in a democratic vote and as with most big decisions in life, some will benefit and some won't, but i firmly believe we were better off in Europe. Will be interesting to see how it all pans out over the coming years and i hope you, Grim and Pete etc are right that we made the correct choice.

I 100% believe we did the right thing, I've done a lot of research and spoke to a diverse amount of business people, including a professor of economics and politics. I really hope we have made the right choice, not to gloat but for our children's future and the future of our country, too many people knock us, we are a great country with great historical trading links. Dyson, the inventor has made some bold statements about negotiating with the EU.

I know you have taken a bit of a hit with Brexit and although that saddens me I really hope that once we are free it will benefit you greatly. I know it won't happen over night but eventually. I see a bright future for the UK as a free democracy.

Not a good day for the brexiteers. Today almost confirms we are in line for the softest of brexits, which basically means we will be left with a trade deal that is slightly worse than we've got at the moment, but will end up paying more, without having the ability to do the free trade deals with those countries like Chad, Djibouti , Nepal etc who are so desperate to sign free trade details with us ,plus no input to what the eu decides to do in future.
Absolute triumph for us plucky Brits!
Am very grateful to the dup (who represent a minority of people in a miniscule province) for allowing May to agree this deal. Whats this nonsense about the tail wagging the dog?
What amuses me as a remainder is how the brexiteers sacred cows are getting slaughtered one by one. No Ecj input into the uk?wrong!
We don't owe them a penny. Wrong!
We will decide the agenda. Wrong!
We won't be taking any lead from the e.u. We will just do our own thing. Wrong!
We will leave in March 2019 there's no need for a transitional deal. Wrong!
We will have £350 million per week to give to the nhs.Wrong!
The e.u. Is 27 member countries who we will divide and rule so getting a great deal. Wrong!
We can have our cake and eat it.Wrong!

And you know when the brexiteers have lost when Nigel farage is bleating about a betrayal :)

Quoted from MidnightMariner

KM
YOU CAN BE A RIGHT PRI CK

Another graduate of the Marley-Fenty School of Communications.

Quoted from forza ivano

Not a good day for the brexiteers. Today almost confirms we are in line for the softest of brexits, which basically means we will be left with a trade deal that is slightly worse than we've got at the moment, but will end up paying more, without having the ability to do the free trade deals with those countries like Chad, Djibouti , Nepal etc who are so desperate to sign free trade details with us ,plus no input to what the eu decides to do in future.
Absolute triumph for us plucky Brits!
Am very grateful to the dup (who represent a minority of people in a miniscule province) for allowing May to agree this deal. Whats this nonsense about the tail wagging the dog?
What amuses me as a remainder is how the brexiteers sacred cows are getting slaughtered one by one. No Ecj input into the uk?wrong!
We don't owe them a penny. Wrong!
We will decide the agenda. Wrong!
We won't be taking any lead from the e.u. We will just do our own thing. Wrong!
We will leave in March 2019 there's no need for a transitional deal. Wrong!
We will have £350 million per week to give to the nhs.Wrong!
The e.u. Is 27 member countries who we will divide and rule so getting a great deal. Wrong!
We can have our cake and eat it.Wrong!

And you know when the brexiteers have lost when Nigel farage is bleating about a betrayal :)

I think we'll find that Brexiteers have suddenly gained an appetite for a referendum on the Brexit deal.

They won. They need to get over it, the snowflakes.

Quoted from forza ivano

Not a good day for the brexiteers. Today almost confirms we are in line for the softest of brexits, which basically means we will be left with a trade deal that is slightly worse than we've got at the moment, but will end up paying more, without having the ability to do the free trade deals with those countries like Chad, Djibouti , Nepal etc who are so desperate to sign free trade details with us ,plus no input to what the eu decides to do in future.
Absolute triumph for us plucky Brits!
Am very grateful to the dup (who represent a minority of people in a miniscule province) for allowing May to agree this deal. Whats this nonsense about the tail wagging the dog?
What amuses me as a remainder is how the brexiteers sacred cows are getting slaughtered one by one. No Ecj input into the uk?wrong!
We don't owe them a penny. Wrong!
We will decide the agenda. Wrong!
We won't be taking any lead from the e.u. We will just do our own thing. Wrong!
We will leave in March 2019 there's no need for a transitional deal. Wrong!
We will have £350 million per week to give to the nhs.Wrong!
The e.u. Is 27 member countries who we will divide and rule so getting a great deal. Wrong!
We can have our cake and eat it.Wrong!

And you know when the brexiteers have lost when Nigel farage is bleating about a betrayal :)

As a Brexiteer, it is an awful day, lets not forget May was a remainer and now she is selling the UK down the river, not only that she has sold the paddles and the boat too. The brave new world that was waiting for us has been undone by the remainers trying to sabotage democracy, more or less to cause the country to revote and EU will get there way like they did in Ireland when they voted to leave and had to have a second vote. It's not all good news for you remainers because once we end up remaining we will be milked like never before by the a Federal EU state.

No matter how bad the deal, we are better off out than in, If this shenanigans continues I hope we walk away completely with a no deal.

As expected, we've agreed to everything the EU wanted because, well, we've got no other choice. A hard Brexit would be so catastrophically bad for our economy, we'd have to be (even more) stupid to go that route. It's no surprise that those in government advocating this route have shown themselves to be empty vessels - they've got no answers to any of the difficult issues that bear any relation to the real world.

I listened to that cretinous blowhard Farage whinging on the radio last night about 'betrayal' or somesuch nonsense and couldn't help but wonder why anybody listens to anything he says. His 'solution' for the Irish border situation is, erm, well, the EU should just allow things to continue as they are over that particular border. No thought (or perhaps, mention) about what this would mean for the customs union because he must surely know that there isn't any sort of an easy solution, especially as the DUP won't allow anything which 'separates' Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK. If such a deal was allowed, the Scots and Welsh will want the same. And why not? Farage says things which sound simple and reasonable because they are simple. Two different meanings of the word in that sentence and reason doesn't come into it.

It seems to me we're probably heading for some sort of a deal where we pay for limited access to the single market (in a similar manner to Norway and Switzerland) and remain inside the customs union. From my viewpoint, this is probably the best of a bad bunch of choices. It would get you out from under the purview of the ECJ to a good degree (except where EU citizens living here are concerned) but, of course, we'll have to follow all EU regulations in any case just to be able to keep trading with them.

We've caved in to the EU because 13 of the cabinet are remainers, it's the remainers who have shoved a pole through the spokes on the bike they are riding but it is the country who will bear the bruises and grazes. It's the remainers who are trying to sabotage brexit, the enemy within.

When trading with the EU we all ready comply, leaving the EU will help smaller companies flourish due to, in their cases unnecessary red tape.

Farage may be a blowhard but he has exposed the EU for everything it has done or planned, some of the staunch remainers said would never happen, like an EU Army or Federalism.

The people of the UK didn't vote for a political union. That right was taken away from us and if we stay in the EU the EU Commission will decide what laws are passed and what countries will surrender at their request.

Quoted from Marinerz93

We've caved in to the EU because 13 of the cabinet are remainers, it's the remainers who have shoved a pole through the spokes on the bike they are riding but it is the country who will bear the bruises and grazes. It's the remainers who are trying to sabotage brexit, the enemy within.

When trading with the EU we all ready comply, leaving the EU will help smaller companies flourish due to, in their cases unnecessary red tape.

Farage may be a blowhard but he has exposed the EU for everything it has done or planned, some of the staunch remainers said would never happen, like an EU Army or Federalism.

The people of the UK didn't vote for a political union. That right was taken away from us and if we stay in the EU the EU Commission will decide what laws are passed and what countries will surrender at their request.

we've caved in to Europe because we had to a) because they hold all the cards and b) its becoming increasingly obvious that Brexit is an incredibly complicated operation, as soon as they think of a solution there are a whole host of consequences and fresh problems to solve. and the silence from Bexiteers on these problems is deafening - they haven't got a feckin clue and it's us, ruled by a total bunch of incompetents (& labour are no better), who will have to live with the consequences.
may is doing the best she can, and i think she believes that the best course of action (in order to avoid an economic disaster) is the softest of soft brexit.
i also think that its beginning to dawn on the more intelligent brexiteers that this whole thing is just a tad more complicated than they ever thought, and maybe brexit wasn't such a great idea after all

Quoted from forza ivano

we've caved in to Europe because we had to a) because they hold all the cards and b) its becoming increasingly obvious that Brexit is an incredibly complicated operation, as soon as they think of a solution there are a whole host of consequences and fresh problems to solve. and the silence from Bexiteers on these problems is deafening - they haven't got a feckin clue and it's us, ruled by a total bunch of incompetents (& labour are no better), who will have to live with the consequences.
may is doing the best she can, and i think she believes that the best course of action (in order to avoid an economic disaster) is the softest of soft brexit.
i also think that its beginning to dawn on the more intelligent brexiteers that this whole thing is just a tad more complicated than they ever thought, and maybe brexit wasn't such a great idea after all

I agree that it has become more complicated but that is down to the EU's negotiators, I don't believe they hold all the cards, they haven't planned any cut backs for when we are out of the EU. The personalities driving the EU are hell bent on full federalism and I see more and more remainers commenting that they didn't realise how narrow minded the likes of verhofstadt and Junker are and brexit was the right idea. The EU is going to collapse under the weight of spending, spending that is out of control and is going to get worse as they press on without our billions after we leave.

May is and always was a remainer along with a large portion of her cabinet, and weak brexit is bad for the UK because as it is for the time being it will be for a few years to come with our hands being tied, she has sold us out. I think Labour under Corbyn would have done worse, he has no spine.

We need to free ourselves of the ECJ and we should be able to make trade deals with any country of our choosing and not be shackled by the EU or have the EU make a trade deals for us without British representation.

Expenditure on the EU is little more than a rounding error as far as the gigantic European economy is concerned. Around 1% or so of GDP.

The idea that the whole EU edifice will somehow collapse due to overspending is one of the most bonkers things I've read in a long while. Especially when you consider that the vast majority of EU expenditure takes place within EU countries. Reinvested, so to speak.

Just how is EU expenditure (which is already due to fall compared to current levels) going to lead to this collapse?

Simple question. Let's have a simple answer with facts or logic to back it up.

You're pissing into the wind with that question Maringer. There won't be an answer other than more rhetoric.

Brexiteers form half the Tory party so the excuse that it's all the fault of retainers is another canard. If that was true they'd band together and take over the show - I'm sure the retainers would be happy to let them have a go because the mess they'd make would kill them off for good as a political threat. Instead they prefer to stand by the sidelines and moan, because they haven't a flipping clue how to deal with it in reality.

Quoted from Maringer

Expenditure on the EU is little more than a rounding error as far as the gigantic European economy is concerned. Around 1% or so of GDP.

The idea that the whole EU edifice will somehow collapse due to overspending is one of the most bonkers things I've read in a long while. Especially when you consider that the vast majority of EU expenditure takes place within EU countries. Reinvested, so to speak.

Just how is EU expenditure (which is already due to fall compared to current levels) going to lead to this collapse?

Simple question. Let's have a simple answer with facts or logic to back it up.

The last thing you said was bonkers and would never happen would be an EU Army, something that is coming to fruition.

The wages and pensions costs are increasing all the time there are plenty bureaucrats who are earning 3 times what the prime minster is on, and as the EU army is forming billions will be sucked out of the pot and there are only a few countries putting in, the rest are taking out. If you think Greece was the one time event, there are others not far off what happened to Greece happening to them, Italy, Spain are struggling with massive youth unemployment leading to financial struggles within their economies. Will the Germans treat them the same as Greece.

A simple question, if we end up staying in the EU would you happy with an EU army and our forces controlled by Brussels, and an EU commission who makes all the laws without consulting the people, and we are forced to join the Euro, because that's were the federal EU is heading.

If being in the EU is so great explain to me why Grimsby has suffered so much since we have been in it and explain why the CFP and CAP are good for Britain. Also explain where our rights to vote on joining a political union went because the vote in the 70's was for common trading not political union. Funny how the judges had to get involved for us to leave but not to join.

Quoted from Marinerz93

The last thing you said was bonkers and would never happen would be an EU Army, something that is coming to fruition.

The wages and pensions costs are increasing all the time there are plenty bureaucrats who are earning 3 times what the prime minster is on, and as the EU army is forming billions will be sucked out of the pot and there are only a few countries putting in, the rest are taking out. If you think Greece was the one time event, there are others not far off what happened to Greece happening to them, Italy, Spain are struggling with massive youth unemployment leading to financial struggles within their economies. Will the Germans treat them the same as Greece.

A simple question, if we end up staying in the EU would you happy with an EU army and our forces controlled by Brussels, and an EU commission who makes all the laws without consulting the people, and we are forced to join the Euro, because that's were the federal EU is heading.

If being in the EU is so great explain to me why Grimsby has suffered so much since we have been in it and explain why the CFP and CAP are good for Britain. Also explain where our rights to vote on joining a political union went because the vote in the 70's was for common trading not political union. Funny how the judges had to get involved for us to leave but not to join.

The Greeks, Spanish and Italians did it to themselves. Spending money they didn't have. Quite happy to take EU handouts when it suited. All that infrastructure in Spain and Greece in particular (and Ireland) that the EU paid for (yes, us and the rich north European countries) will not go away. They lifted those countries from poverty. They then went and spunked loads more money they didn't have (not even backed by handouts) and couldn't afford it when it was time to pay. Granted the Germans went about making them pay for the bailouts they provided in a ham-fisted and counterproductive way. If they PIIGS hadn't been members of the EU they'd have needed bailouts even more desperately. They'd have had to rely on the Americans and they exact a bigger price than the Germans (as they would have found if they'd elected left-wing governments whilst outside the EU) . They were pisspoor (apart from Italy, and that has always been so corrupt it was bound to get itself into trouble - and had the wherewithal given the wealth in the North to mitigate a lot of the impact of austerity IF THE fornicators PAID ANY TAX). All that would be the same without the EU. You just need a passing acquaintance with history to know that.

Grimsby was absolutely shafted but he British government on entry to the EEC. They happily traded our fishing industry for the benefits of access to their markets. The farming industry has somehow survived (having had to adapt to a different set of subsidies and controls to the ones we had before we joined the EEC). Different but no worse on balance. They're still protected unlike most other industries - that's not to say they haven't had difficulties, but they are protected.

The EU army (and state) will come sooner or later. Just like the US army (and common currency) did. Originally each colony/state had its own force and the only reason the national army evolved so quickly was because of the necessities of war (against the motherland). The states may not have liked the loss of the loss of autonomy but it was better in their eyes than the alternative. Fine if you wanna stay out, but you have to accept the consequences of your choice. It's no good whinging about the EU now. You got what you voted for.

We're a bit part player on our own. A relatively unimportant country - and increasingly so given the growth in Asian economies (and African in the future)*. A fig leaf for the Americans when they want the appearance of legitimacy for their foreign adventures. The threat of the Soviet union gave us a little more independence of action as the US wasn't so dominant globally and we had a more viable left of centre alternative than we've had for a long time.

* once the new high speed Eurasian railways kick in (the new 'Silk Road'), we'll be even more powerless. Seapower will be less important.

Wondering what type of Brexit this is so far, a 'red, white and blue one' like Theresa May said she wanted? a lexit? hard? soft? soft, strong and long? moderate? Firm to good?

So much for "Brexit means Brexit" eh?

Quoted from Manchester Mariner

Wondering what type of Brexit this is so far, a 'red, white and blue one' like Theresa May said she wanted? a lexit? hard? soft? soft, strong and long? moderate? Firm to good?

So much for "Brexit means Brexit" eh?

It's the haven't got a clue what we're doing or what we will end up with Brexit

This is where it all started possibly!

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/sovereignwales.com/2016/09/20/the-genocidal-kalergi-plan-to-destroy-the-indigenous-nations-and-peoples-of-europe/amp/

Read it all the way through to the end....they still give an annual award with his name on unbelievable but no surprise Blair 🏆 Merkel 🏆

Quoted from Grim74

This is where it all started possibly!

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/sovereignwales.com/2016/09/20/the-genocidal-kalergi-plan-to-destroy-the-indigenous-nations-and-peoples-of-europe/amp/

Read it all the way through to the end....they still give an annual award with his name on unbelievable but no surprise Blair 🏆 Merkel 🏆

I've read a lot and watch a lot and some of this I've seen in various forms. There is a lot going on behind closed doors and from what I've seen or read it is not democratic and the EU is heading to Federalism, with the EU commission doing what it wants and nation countries doing what they are told.

Also people in certain positions doing the bidding of others because they are being groomed, like Michel Barnier taking over from Junker, and Macron in the future taking over from Barnier.

Quoted from Marinerz93

I've read a lot and watch a lot and some of this I've seen in various forms. There is a lot going on behind closed doors and from what I've seen or read it is not democratic and the EU is heading to Federalism, with the EU commission doing what it wants and nation countries doing what they are told.

Also people in certain positions doing the bidding of others because they are being groomed, like Michel Barnier taking over from Junker, and Macron in the future taking over from Barnier.

Agree it's only time before the European Nation Countries are swallowed up, I'm not totally convinced the commission are following the pan European plan to the letter but I am convinced they do have a plan, and the end goal is this twisted cultural Marxist federal state. We were never going to have a true Brexit, all May has done is buy time until the next general election when the people will be conned into staying in this EU cesspit.

Quoted from Grim74

This is where it all started possibly!

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/sovereignwales.com/2016/09/20/the-genocidal-kalergi-plan-to-destroy-the-indigenous-nations-and-peoples-of-europe/amp/

Read it all the way through to the end....they still give an annual award with his name on unbelievable but no surprise Blair 🏆 Merkel 🏆

Well, I've read it all. That's several minutes of my life I'm never going to get back.

Free mason conspiracy, Jewish conspiracy, Zionist conspiracy, Rothschild conspiracy, UN conspiracy, Catholic church conspiracy, Soros conspiracy, anti-White conspiracy.

Why, it's a conspiracy theorist's bullshit bingo!

All sorts of unattributed, random, unsourced, wide-ranging but bizarre claims imagining some sort of a complex web of conspiracy to kill off old whitey over the course of several generations. Laughable claptrap at best. In fact, that's being generous.

If you believe a tenth of this nonsense, you've disappeared so far down the conspiracy rabbit hole that you've lost touch with reality. Take a step back, please.

I can now see how fact and evidence based arguments about Brexit won't work if you seriously believe it's all some kind of a global scam by shadowy elites. Utterly bonkers.

The wealthy certainly look after themselves and their children to ensure they stay and become wealthy (see the Conservative Party for all the evidence you require on this topic). What they don't do is embark on multi-generational global conspiracies between all sorts of nefarious groups to destroy all nation states.

Let me guess. You think that the 9/11 attacks were part of this conspiracy, eh?

Quoted from Maringer

Well, I've read it all. That's several minutes of my life I'm never going to get back.

Free mason conspiracy, Jewish conspiracy, Zionist conspiracy, Rothschild conspiracy, UN conspiracy, Catholic church conspiracy, Soros conspiracy, anti-White conspiracy.

Why, it's a conspiracy theorist's bullshit bingo!

All sorts of unattributed, random, unsourced, wide-ranging but bizarre claims imagining some sort of a complex web of conspiracy to kill off old whitey over the course of several generations. Laughable claptrap at best. In fact, that's being generous.

If you believe a tenth of this nonsense, you've disappeared so far down the conspiracy rabbit hole that you've lost touch with reality. Take a step back, please.

I can now see how fact and evidence based arguments about Brexit won't work if you seriously believe it's all some kind of a global scam by shadowy elites. Utterly bonkers.

The wealthy certainly look after themselves and their children to ensure they stay and become wealthy (see the Conservative Party for all the evidence you require on this topic). What they don't do is embark on multi-generational global conspiracies between all sorts of nefarious groups to destroy all nation states.

Let me guess. You think that the 9/11 attacks were part of this conspiracy, eh?

You believe what you want my issue is with this Kalergi fellow, his book did lead to the creation of the pan europa movement and that's no conspiracy pure fact. And what is the pan europa movements goal? To replace the individual nations of Europe with an ethnically heterogeneous European nation based on a commonality of culture. (No national culture allowed)

Quoted from Maringer

Well, I've read it all. That's several minutes of my life I'm never going to get back.

Free mason conspiracy, Jewish conspiracy, Zionist conspiracy, Rothschild conspiracy, UN conspiracy, Catholic church conspiracy, Soros conspiracy, anti-White conspiracy.

Why, it's a conspiracy theorist's bullshit bingo!

All sorts of unattributed, random, unsourced, wide-ranging but bizarre claims imagining some sort of a complex web of conspiracy to kill off old whitey over the course of several generations. Laughable claptrap at best. In fact, that's being generous.

If you believe a tenth of this nonsense, you've disappeared so far down the conspiracy rabbit hole that you've lost touch with reality. Take a step back, please.

I can now see how fact and evidence based arguments about Brexit won't work if you seriously believe it's all some kind of a global scam by shadowy elites. Utterly bonkers.

The wealthy certainly look after themselves and their children to ensure they stay and become wealthy (see the Conservative Party for all the evidence you require on this topic). What they don't do is embark on multi-generational global conspiracies between all sorts of nefarious groups to destroy all nation states.

Let me guess. You think that the 9/11 attacks were part of this conspiracy, eh?

Tony Ben opens up this lovely EU you love so much and can't get enough of, he tells you what will and is going to happen, basically the end of democracy. (drops mic)

Search on you tube the title below.

Tony Benn – EU Referendum – EU Empire – Democracy – Brexit

Quoted from Marinerz93

Tony Ben opens up this lovely EU you love so much and can't get enough of, he tells you what will and is going to happen, basically the end of democracy. (drops mic)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWnpbEMMsNw&index=26&list=WL&t=389s

Link won't play

Quoted from Grim74

Link won't play

I don't know why the links aren't working try

Search on you tube the title below.

Tony Benn – EU Referendum – EU Empire – Democracy – Brexit

Quoted from Marinerz93

As a Brexiteer, it is an awful day, lets not forget May was a remainer and now she is selling the UK down the river, not only that she has sold the paddles and the boat too. The brave new world that was waiting for us has been undone by the remainers trying to sabotage democracy, more or less to cause the country to revote and EU will get there way like they did in Ireland when they voted to leave and had to have a second vote. It's not all good news for you remainers because once we end up remaining we will be milked like never before by the a Federal EU state.

No matter how bad the deal, we are better off out than in, If this shenanigans continues I hope we walk away completely with a no deal.

not possible - as has already been pointed out it is impossible to square the circle of not having an Eire/NI border and having free trade deals with other countries. Jonathan Powell explains the conundrum and the impossibility of the situation here. Ignore who Powell is, but just go through the logic. we have already accepted a soft brexit as our fallback position, if all else fails.
https://www.pressreader.com/uk/i-newspaper/20171215/281698320097839

you can't walk away because we don't have the immigration or customs staff/ infrastructure/ computre programmes/ regulations to deal with it.let alone things like europe wide supply chains which would grind to an immediate halt. You walk away and you have to put in hard border in Ireland - i don't know anyone who is arguing for such a thing since even the nuttiest brexiteer knows the dangers posed by the breakdown of the Good Friday Agreement.

Quoted from forza ivano

not possible - as has already been pointed out it is impossible to square the circle of not having an Eire/NI border and having free trade deals with other countries. Jonathan Powell explains the conundrum and the impossibility of the situation here. Ignore who Powell is, but just go through the logic. we have already accepted a soft brexit as our fallback position, if all else fails.
https://www.pressreader.com/uk/i-newspaper/20171215/281698320097839

you can't walk away because we don't have the immigration or customs staff/ infrastructure/ computre programmes/ regulations to deal with it.let alone things like europe wide supply chains which would grind to an immediate halt. You walk away and you have to put in hard border in Ireland - i don't know anyone who is arguing for such a thing since even the nuttiest brexiteer knows the dangers posed by the breakdown of the Good Friday Agreement.

EU regulations will be adopted or replaced at a later date to more suit our needs. Staff can be brought in quite quickly, every year thousands of people leave the forces and there is always people looking to better themselves so getting and training people will take time but it is achievable in the short term. The company I work for has gone from 500 to over 1200 in the space of a year with an extra 500 planned for next year. No one wants anything that will cause tensions in Ireland so that will be down to the EU, as an independent country we must be able to do our own trade deals otherwise it will be a hard Brexit. The EU has is going to get £40 billion from us so they need to start giving something back or get nothing.