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Quoted from grimsby pete

Another thing while I am at it,

We are not going cap in hand to anybody, we buy a lot more than we sell to the EU, so they will want us to have a deal that we are happy with,

Otherwise we will buy our good from the other said countries instead,

S, African, Australia and Chile make some nice wines so we do not have to buy French,

We can buy cars from China that are half the price of German cars and they have just the same performance,

Italy can stick their clothes we will buy much cheaper ones from China that are good quality,

Need I go on or shall I just shoot myself now because according to the remainers it all doom and gloom.

Unless Corbyn gets in then we can have everything for FREE !!!!!!!!

Good Lord, Pete. You don't half post some nonsense sometimes. :)

Lots of people who like nice wine, prefer to drink French wine. Why would you think this is going to change? These things are already 15 to 20 percent more expensive due to the devaluation of the pound since the Brexit vote.

In a similar vein, do you seriously think that people who buy BMW/Mercedes/Audi/Volkswagen/Porsche are going to suddenly buy some no-name Chinese cars? That is just nutty. Similarly, why would you think that the people willing to shell out on expensive Italian or French clothing are suddenly going to buy cheap imports from elsewhere? These people will continue to buy the same things but it will cost them more and that is more of our money leaving the country and increasing the trade deficit.

Realism shouldn't be confused with 'doom and gloom'. Why should any country give us any favours at their own expense? Why should they offer us better terms than those given to the world's largest trading bloc? Feel free to explain why, if you can.

No idea what you're going on about in the final sentence. Remember that the Labour manifesto was costed. Now, whether you believe that the manifesto is affordable or not may depend on your political leanings but, yet again, I'll note that the Scandinavian countries manage to achieve the things in the manifesto without bankrupting themselves and duly have better living standards and less inequality. If they can afford it, why can't we?

Quoted from grimsby pete

One last thing, if we can not reach a deal then they will not get any divorce money from us either.

In which case, we'll be hit with all sorts of tarriffs and charges as a 'punishment'. They could easily make it more difficult or even almost impossible to export to Europe whilst at the same time leaving the system for their exports to us much more simple. This is why none of the sensible Brexiteers are claiming we won't pay our share of the obligations. Let's hope we can negotiate as low a settlement as possible.

I saw a programme on China and the expert could not tell the difference between the German models and the Chinese,

There was one big difference the £80,000 German car was only £40,000 and with no difference on performance,

The £40,000 German model was less than £20,000 again the expert said the performance was the same,

So if the BMW lads want to pay twice the price why are we bothered about the EU adding tariffs ?

I did explain if the USA and other countries outside the EU are buying British at the moment they are paying a tariff put on by the EU,

So we could remove that tariff once we are out and both get a better deal.

Don't tell me I am talking nonsense because I have a different idea to you what could be possible.

Its the same with wine the EU put a tariff on S, African wine so again we could remove that and we could get a better deal with S,Africa likewise they would not paying a tariff on our goods,

If it was up to you we would be going cap in hand,

If it was up to me I would tell them to stuff it if they want to punish us we will buy our goods elsewhere.

PS. I have been known to drink a bottle of wine now and again and I can assure you the French is not the be all end all in quality other countries have improved immensely over the last few years.

Quoted from grimsby pete

Another thing while I am at it,

We are not going cap in hand to anybody, we buy a lot more than we sell to the EU, so they will want us to have a deal that we are happy with,

Otherwise we will buy our good from the other said countries instead,

S, African, Australia and Chile make some nice wines so we do not have to buy French,

We can buy cars from China that are half the price of German cars and they have just the same performance,

Italy can stick their clothes we will buy much cheaper ones from China that are good quality,

Need I go on or shall I just shoot myself now because according to the remainers it all doom and gloom.

Unless Corbyn gets in then we can have everything for FREE !!!!!!!!

What do South Africa, China, Australia and Chile all have in common? They're all fooking miles away.

What do France, Italy, Spain etc have in common? They're all relatively close by.

Now unless you're able to invent teleportation, it's still going to cost a small fortune importing cars etc from China which won't be as good as the German models. Or shipping in wine from the other side of the world. It makes sense to do business with your nearest neighbours because it lowers costs for everyone.

Quoted from mariner91

What do South Africa, China, Australia and Chile all have in common? They're all fooking miles away.

What do France, Italy, Spain etc have in common? They're all relatively close by.

Now unless you're able to invent teleportation, it's still going to cost a small fortune importing cars etc from China which won't be as good as the German models. Or shipping in wine from the other side of the world. It makes sense to do business with your nearest neighbours because it lowers costs for everyone.

Well there wines on sale here already and they do not cost any different so that one of your points down the toilet,

Regarding cars we have been buying cars from Japan for years and years, they even made a big factory at Sunderland,

So why can't China build a factory here for their cars, they might even build it at Grimsby,

BTW if we do not have a trade deal with the EU we will not be able to buy their cars if you say the Germans will import them anyway and add on a tariff then why are the powers that be taking 2 years to talk about deals,

Either we have a deal that we are happy with or we will have NO DEAL which means no German cars,

You may check with the EU if you do not believe me.

NEWSFLASH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am voting for Corbyn at the next election because he has brought out another freebie,

This time he says , All retired people can get free wine on prescription but no more than one bottle a day.

So that's me sorted 8)

No freebies on offer anywhere I'm afraid, Pete.

The triple-lock pension increases over the past decade haven't been a freebie for pensioners either, just a political choice. A bribe to pensioners, if you want to take one view, or a fair decision to take another view. Nothing at all wrong with the policy of increasing the income of pensioners, but it has certainly come at a time when other groups have been screwed over. Notably the young, public sector workers (who have effectively suffered a substantial pay cut since 2010), people on welfare, families being given tax credits or housing benefit etc etc.

Quoted from Maringer

Remember that the Labour manifesto was costed.

Whoops turns out Labour’s plan to scrap student debt would cost £100billion – and they don’t know where the money would come from, shadow education secretary admits 🙈

Meanwhile...

http://www.independent.co.uk/student/graduates-three-quarters-never-pay-off-debt-loan-maintenance-grant-institute-for-fiscal-studies-a7824016.html

Students from low-income families ending their course with £57,000 debt? Yay! says Grim.

Three-quarters of the loans not being repaid? Yay! says Grim.

UK students ending their courses with the highest debt in the Western world? Yay! says Grim.

The average student ending their course with almost 6 grand in interest added to their debt? Yay! says Grim.

Interest rates currently over 6 flipping percent meaning many students won't ever be able to, say, afford to buy a house or start a pension? Yay! says Grim.

Meanwhile, in most of the rest of the civilised world, students face free or at least very cheap tertiary education and yes, many of these have a similar proportion of population who are graduates as us. Many of them spend a higher proportion of their GDP on higher education as well.

As for existing student debt, just QE the crap out of it. If we can create well north of £400 billion to prop up financial institutions after their ineptitude and greed led to the worst global recession for a century, I think giving millions of graduates more money in their pockets to spend in the real economy through debt cancellation will be a fine idea.

Quoted from Maringer

Meanwhile...

http://www.independent.co.uk/student/graduates-three-quarters-never-pay-off-debt-loan-maintenance-grant-institute-for-fiscal-studies-a7824016.html

Students from low-income families ending their course with £57,000 debt? Yay! says Grim.

Three-quarters of the loans not being repaid? Yay! says Grim.

UK students ending their courses with the highest debt in the Western world? Yay! says Grim.

The average student ending their course with almost 6 grand in interest added to their debt? Yay! says Grim.

Interest rates currently over 6 flipping percent meaning many students won't ever be able to, say, afford to buy a house or start a pension? Yay! says Grim.

Meanwhile, in most of the rest of the civilised world, students face free or at least very cheap tertiary education and yes, many of these have a similar proportion of population who are graduates as us. Many of them spend a higher proportion of their GDP on higher education as well.

As for existing student debt, just QE the crap out of it. If we can create well north of £400 billion to prop up financial institutions after their ineptitude and greed led to the worst global recession for a century, I think giving millions of graduates more money in their pockets to spend in the real economy through debt cancellation will be a fine idea.

To many going to uni 50% thanks again to (tony Blair) in Germany for example it's 20% which is why they don't have tuition fees, years ago it used to be the boffins that went to uni, but nowadays its partytime for the snowflakes studying for farcical degrees.

Quoted from Grim74

To many going to uni 50% thanks again to (tony Blair) in Germany for example it's 20% which is why they don't have tuition fees, years ago it used to be the boffins that went to uni, but nowadays its partytime for the snowflakes studying for farcical degrees.

It would be interesting to find out how many of those people who got a degree got a job in their chosen profession.

Quoted from Grim74

To many going to uni 50% thanks again to (tony Blair) in Germany for example it's 20% which is why they don't have tuition fees, years ago it used to be the boffins that went to uni, but nowadays its partytime for the snowflakes studying for farcical degrees.

Germany has technical colleges and a schooling system which trains up less academically inclined workers for the heavy industry which they didn't sell off back in the 1980s. Unlike us. They don't need as many graduates so don't fund them in the same way.

Countries without such a dominant manufacturing sector are more similar to us. Countries such as Norway, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, for example. University fees either non-existent or a fraction of ours.

I do find it rather odd that you are apparently so keen for people to not have access to further education. Should be a good thing, surely? I come from a generation that had (almost free) access to University, just like most MPs in parliament, so I find it pretty disgraceful that I'd be facing a 50k+ debt if I had happened to be born a generation later.

Quoted from grimsby pete

It would be interesting to find out how many of those people who got a degree got a job in their chosen profession.

Would be hard to get genuine statistics on this but I'm sure bar chart man will tell us, would be surprised if more than 60%

Quoted from Maringer

Germany has technical colleges and a schooling system which trains up less academically inclined workers for the heavy industry which they didn't sell off back in the 1980s. Unlike us. They don't need as many graduates so don't fund them in the same way.

Countries without such a dominant manufacturing sector are more similar to us. Countries such as Norway, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, for example. University fees either non-existent or a fraction of ours.

I do find it rather odd that you are apparently so keen for people to not have access to further education. Should be a good thing, surely? I come from a generation that had (almost free) access to University, just like most MPs in parliament, so I find it pretty disgraceful that I'd be facing a 50k+ debt if I had happened to be born a generation later.

What's odd about wanting to stop taking advantage of these kids with undeveloped brains what good is letting them get into 50k of debt by studying for Micky mouse degrees like golf management, media studies, social science, Gender StudiesPlanning, Tourism and Travel Management, Events management etc etc you
Get my point you could even study Pokemon at Salford university!
What this country desperately needs is a skilled workforce we now have a UK Building boom on the go which should last for many years, but instead of training our young people firms are having to get the Eastern Europeans in.... absolutely senseless. Just take a look around our little neck of the woods loads and loads of building sites I've even seen a sign advertising for builders, not to mention the local offshore work where I've read somewhere we have a skills shortage.

Quoted from Grim74

What's odd about wanting to stop taking advantage of these kids with undeveloped brains what good is letting them get into 50k of debt by studying for Micky mouse degrees like golf management, media studies, social science, Gender StudiesPlanning, Tourism and Travel Management, Events management etc etc you
Get my point you could even study Pokemon at Salford university!
What this country desperately needs is a skilled workforce we now have a UK Building boom on the go which should last for many years, but instead of training our young people firms are having to get the Eastern Europeans in.... absolutely senseless. Just take a look around our little neck of the woods loads and loads of building sites I've even seen a sign advertising for builders, not to mention the local offshore work where I've read somewhere we have a skills shortage.

Our economy relies on the service industries to a great degree (after we shut down/sold off our industry back in the 1980s and 1990s) so it is sensible to have many degrees in these areas. The vast majority of degrees aren't 'Mickey Mouse' in any way, shape or form. The Pokemon stuff was clearly just a publicity stunt - the students at Salford were taking a Business Information Technology course and it makes good advertising for them to say they can 'study' Pokemon Go. You'll agree that IT training is a good thing, especially as we're approaching a time where mechanisation and AI means that many current jobs will disappear over the next couple of decades.

You're quite correct that we require more builders but we're just not training enough of them in great part because our broken housing system means we aren't building nearly enough homes. No reason for the big building companies to go to the expense of training builders when they are deliberately rationing the housebuilding they are doing to keep their profits as high as possible. Government intervention, regulation and investment would be required to get the housing system sorted out but there's no chance of this under the Tories. Pumping up the housing market is their only policy in this field, regardless of the long-term consequences.

Quoted from Grim74

Would be hard to get genuine statistics on this but I'm sure bar chart man will tell us, would be surprised if more than 60%

About 50%:

http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/half-of-uk-graduates-do-not-work-in-their-field-of-study-survey-reveals-9574042.html

I studied French and haven't used it all since graduating in 2002 but having a degree looks good on your CV and opens a lot of doors. Also I think it's heathy to move out of your parents' house, move to another town or city and meet different people. Each to their own though and I do tend to agree that this drive to encourage EVERYONE to go to university is bonkers.

Quoted from psgmariner

About 50%:

http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/half-of-uk-graduates-do-not-work-in-their-field-of-study-survey-reveals-9574042.html

I studied French and haven't used it all since graduating in 2002 but having a degree looks good on your CV and opens a lot of doors. Also I think it's heathy to move out of your parents' house, move to another town or city and meet different people. Each to their own though and I do tend to agree that this drive to encourage EVERYONE to go to university is bonkers.

Agree, my granddaughter has a degree in sports journalism but not one of her fellow students have got a job in their chosen degree,

However as you say it looks good on your CV and it does open doors in other professions.

I've got a couple of friends with Geography degrees who work in IT systems design and another friend with a music degree who sells IT systems.

I studied Computer Science and, though I work with computers every day I don't really use much I learned at University.

Education is a good thing and further education can be a very good thing. Government policy was to attempt to get 50% of students into further education so decrying it seems to be an odd choice.

The main problem is that it seems that the Universities are concentrating too much on 'cheaper' courses rather than the more expensive science-based ones. That's what happens when you encourage commodification of education. Too much concentration on the bottom line instead of what the country needs.

For a lot of these snowflakes doing the Micky mouse degrees (yes there is even a course for this) puts off the horrors of actually earning a living, many will know that the loans can be just be kicked into the long grass as the future is a long time away and carry on smoking dope and protesting, or even better they will be scrapped by a Corbyn government 😃

Again all thanks to Blair with his stupid idea for 50% of school children to be able to go to university, aided and abetted by the liberal professors who dupe the students with dumbed down and non-academic degrees, promising them high wages for life whilst at the same time peddling their left wing agenda, oh and let's not forget it was keeping down the youth unemployment figures.

Time we went back to 20% max. Fully funded for those who are really intelligent only, let's stop devaluing degrees let's go back to going to Uni meaning something, let's stop bullshitting our kids saddling them with a lifetime of debt only for them end up stacking shelves or serving coffee, and let's kick some of these lecturers off the gravy train only there to indoctrinate.

Grim don't you know that every snowflake is different so it would take a lot of drawing to get them all in a book,

Afterthought ,

How do they know every snowflake has a different shape has anybody ever looked at every snowflake ?

Or was you talking about Micky ? ;D

Quoted from Grim74

For a lot of these snowflakes doing the Micky mouse degrees (yes there is even a course for this) puts off the horrors of actually earning a living, many will know that the loans can be just be kicked into the long grass as the future is a long time away and carry on smoking dope and protesting, or even better they will be scrapped by a Corbyn government 😃

Again all thanks to Blair with his stupid idea for 50% of school children to be able to go to university, aided and abetted by the liberal professors who dupe the students with dumbed down and non-academic degrees, promising them high wages for life whilst at the same time peddling their left wing agenda, oh and let's not forget it was keeping down the youth unemployment figures.

Time we went back to 20% max. Fully funded for those who are really intelligent only, let's stop devaluing degrees let's go back to going to Uni meaning something, let's stop bullshitting our kids saddling them with a lifetime of debt only for them end up stacking shelves or serving coffee, and let's kick some of these lecturers off the gravy train only there to indoctrinate.

So what degrees would you get rid of? What would you keep? From my own personal experience I agree that there are some degrees that should be scrapped (two of my friends did Radio Production and for some unknown reason it was classed as a BSc, what the actual fook?!) but equally there are many, many more that are absolutely necessary with nursing being the first one that springs to mind. Although whether nursing should be a degree is a separate debate.

Furthermore, in order to progress quickly in your career path, these days it is expected that you'll have a degree. You don't necessarily have to work in the field that you've studied in either as it teaches you a lot of transferable skills and demonstrate that you're intelligent etc. For example, my best mate studied History at Cambridge but he's now a management consultant for Deloitte. There is no way on earth he'd have got that job without having a degree, wouldn't have even got to the interview stage.

To a lesser or greater extent hasn't it always been the case that a lot of university degrees have never mirrored the real world? A good friend of mine got a degree in the late 70s from a good university in English/American studies. He is now a successful business man with great skills in insurance/risk. The ability to attain a degree sent out a statement to would be employers about someone's application.
I cannot see the point of blaming the fact that "too many" people get the chance to go to uni for the failure of successive governments to deal adequately with the skills shortage. My partners friends husband a millionaire builder and Tory donater was moved to sponsor (pay for!) a bricklaying course at their local college so frustrated was he at the obviousness of the problem. Grimsby college is recognised as being one of the foremost places in Britain to study refrigeration yet I read today that they are having to make deep cuts. It's only a matter of time before those cuts start to affect their ability to deliver the standards necessary to stay at the top of the game.
The blame cuts across all governments who failed to see the writing on the wall. When I left school most of my mates went into apprenticeships in large firms. Nobody came up with a plan of how to address what youngsters would do once the industries that used to rely on large work forces either disappeared or were able to use automation. People laughed when Thatcher beat the miners but as late as the 1970s unemployment in Yorkshire pit villages was way below the national average. In some now youth unemployment is way over 50%. It was Blair's choice to deal with it by offering more uni places. It wasnt perfect but it was an attempt.
The idea that degrees in customer management/entertainment provision etc are worthless in a country that survives mainly in a service industry capacity is really too ridiculous to argue with.

Quoted from grimsby pete

Well there wines on sale here already and they do not cost any different so that one of your points down the toilet,

Regarding cars we have been buying cars from Japan for years and years, they even made a big factory at Sunderland,

So why can't China build a factory here for their cars, they might even build it at Grimsby,

BTW if we do not have a trade deal with the EU we will not be able to buy their cars if you say the Germans will import them anyway and add on a tariff then why are the powers that be taking 2 years to talk about deals,

Either we have a deal that we are happy with or we will have NO DEAL which means no German cars,

You may check with the EU if you do not believe me.

Pete. Isn't the reason that a lot of goods already come from places like Chile because it is part of a deal with the E.U.? When we leave the E.U. we will have to start again.
At the risk of reminding me you still don't have a membership card, during Operation Promotion we ordered our Harrys from China. It took five weeks for the order to go through (which included two weeks waiting for a sample to arrive) and then NINE weeks for the sea trip ( via a container). We were lucky in that we had a kind sponsor who gave us some space in his container for free. I dread to think how much it costs to have something at sea for that length of time. Throughout we had to deal through an agent and because of the time lapse and language difficulties even simple queries took ages to answer. The money we sent had to go through a clearing bank in America where it was converted into dollars because no-one deals in Chinese Yuans. We had a problem because of a misunderstanding of the way the payment needed to be prepared which meant it had to be sent back. In the meantime we had to send another payment. It took a month for the returned payment to come back to our account. We had no idea where it was at any time during that period. I'm not saying such problems couldn't be ironed out but that would take time and nothing can be done about the distance. The contrast is stark when you consider we were sending goods from Op. Prom. out to places all over the world and were getting messages from people in Italy France etc. saying they'd received them TWO DAYS after we posted them.

Its been said before but No Deal doesnt mean they cannot sell their cars here. It means they cannot sell them tariff free. The German car industry has indicated they are willing to suck that up to protect the single market.

Last week or was it 2 weeks ago ? I popped down to Felixstowe to see the biggest ship in the world,

It came fro China and had over 21,000 containers on it,

That's a lot of goods we are already buying from China ,

We could make that a more regular run for them.

Quoted from grimsby pete

Last week or was it 2 weeks ago ? I popped down to Felixstowe to see the biggest ship in the world,

It came fro China and had over 21,000 containers on it,

That's a lot of goods we are already buying from China ,

We could make that a more regular run for them.

Yep. Isn't the issue though how many made the return journey?

Quoted from barralad

Pete. Isn't the reason that a lot of goods already come from places like Chile because it is part of a deal with the E.U.? When we leave the E.U. we will have to start again.
.

Anybody thinking we will not be talking to other countries about trade deals already must be living where I have been told I live, La La Land or cloud cuckoo land,

Just because the EU say countries can not make separate deals with others while in the EU does not mean we will not have all deals ready in place for day 1 of Brexit,

Also about the time it takes anything to arrive from China,

Japan imported their cars for years before they found out it would pay to build a factory here because of the amount of cars we were buying,

Sunderland got it because the government gave them a grant otherwise it might have been built at Grimsby,

So when China starts to build their cars in Grimsby I will say,

I told you so . 8)

Let's not forget the great news from president Trump he wants a free trade deal with the UK as soon as we leave the EU. The US economy is 35% larger than the EU27's suck on that Merkel.

Quoted from Grim74

Let's not forget the great news from president Trump he wants a free trade deal with the UK as soon as we leave the EU. The US economy is 35% larger than the EU27's suck on that Merkel.

Which would be very useful if the US wasn't 4,000 miles away. On a clear day, you can see one of the main EU countries from the cliffs of Dover!

Unsurprisingly, we do 5 times as much trade with Europe as with the US. If you think this is going to suddenly switch around once we've left the EU then I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

What I'd really like to know is just what you think we're going to export? We don't manufacture much, we're a small country so we don't have much in the way of agricultural exports, so much so that we can't even feed ourselves at present. Similarly, we don't have any large mineral wealth. What are we going to export? There's a very good reason we had a £60 billion trade deficit with the EU last year.

When the banks jump ship to Frankfurt will be when the 'fun' really begins.

Quoted from Grim74

Let's not forget the great news from president Trump he wants a free trade deal with the UK as soon as we leave the EU. The US economy is 35% larger than the EU27's suck on that Merkel.

Plus there are Hundreds and Hundreds of millions ( too many to count ) of people living in China and India.
They also want trade deals with us.

AND

Boris said today if the EU think we are giving them billions for a divorce payment they can go whistle.

Quoted from Maringer

Which would be very useful if the US wasn't 4,000 miles away. On a clear day, you can see one of the main EU countries from the cliffs of Dover!

Unsurprisingly, we do 5 times as much trade with Europe as with the US. If you think this is going to suddenly switch around once we've left the EU then I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

What I'd really like to know is just what you think we're going to export? We don't manufacture much, we're a small country so we don't have much in the way of agricultural exports, so much so that we can't even feed ourselves at present. Similarly, we don't have any large mineral wealth. What are we going to export? There's a very good reason we had a £60 billion trade deficit with the EU last year.

When the banks jump ship to Frankfurt will be when the 'fun' really begins.

What do we export at the moment ?

This fixation of we can not trade with them or them because they are further away is just stupid,

We buy far more than we sell to the EU . so wanting to sell what we do export will not be a problem,

Barralad said it took weeks to get our Harry from China,

Well you know what ?

We will order things 6 weeks in advance, its not rocket science.

Regarding the Banks we will offer them a better deal to stay than the Germans will to take them away.

I am glad we do not have to go to war with some of you lads, you will be putting up the white flag as soon as you saw anybody approaching.

Quoted from grimsby pete

What do we export at the moment ?

This fixation of we can not trade with them or them because they are further away is just stupid,

We buy far more than we sell to the EU . so wanting to sell what we do export will not be a problem,

Barralad said it took weeks to get our Harry from China,

Well you know what ?

We will order things 6 weeks in advance, its not rocket science.

Regarding the Banks we will offer them a better deal to stay than the Germans will to take them away.

I am glad we do not have to go to war with some of you lads, you will be putting up the white flag as soon as you saw anybody approaching.

Unless you mean that ordering six weeks in advance means goods only take three weeks to arrive that point is unfortunately irrelevant.
Your point about Chinese cars got me thinking. Didn't the Chinese take over Rover at some point? What happened to that? Genuine question...Can you buy a new version Chinese Rover? If not why did they pull out? I cannot remember.
You may be entirely right and we are worrying about nothing. My final point though is that there is no guarantee that foreign car firms currently here will necessarily want to stay here post Brexit. The government recognised that possibility very early on by doing a deal with Nissan which suggests if they weren't worried they wouldn't have seen the need to reassure them.

Quoted from Maringer

Which would be very useful if the US wasn't 4,000 miles away. On a clear day, you can see one of the main EU countries from the cliffs of Dover!

Unsurprisingly, we do 5 times as much trade with Europe as with the US. If you think this is going to suddenly switch around once we've left the EU then I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

What I'd really like to know is just what you think we're going to export? We don't manufacture much, we're a small country so we don't have much in the way of agricultural exports, so much so that we can't even feed ourselves at present. Similarly, we don't have any large mineral wealth. What are we going to export? There's a very good reason we had a £60 billion trade deficit with the EU last year.

When the banks jump ship to Frankfurt will be when the 'fun' really begins.

Distances don't mean anything now, Its not the 1800s Maringer or haven't you remoaniacs noticed?

We will still be trading with Europe! America is one of 37 countries wanting FTAs with us the others include the world's 2nd, 3rd, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th & 13th largest economies.

Well this is what we are exporting.... Machinery including computers, Vehicles, Pharmaceuticals,Gems, precious metals Electrical machinery, Mineral fuels including oil,Aircraft, spacecraft,Optical, technical, medical apparatus, Plastics, plastic articles Organic chemicals etc, $54.7B

As for the banks nothing but classic scaremongering London is consistently one of the leading financial centres in the world.

Quoted from barralad

Unless you mean that ordering six weeks in advance means goods only take three weeks to arrive that point is unfortunately irrelevant.
Your point about Chinese cars got me thinking. Didn't the Chinese take over Rover at some point? What happened to that? Genuine question...Can you buy a new version Chinese Rover? If not why did they pull out? I cannot remember.
You may be entirely right and we are worrying about nothing. My final point though is that there is no guarantee that foreign car firms currently here will necessarily want to stay here post Brexit. The government recognised that possibility very early on by doing a deal with Nissan which suggests if they weren't worried they wouldn't have seen the need to reassure them.

I thought I was the one who suffered with depression Ian , you must go to bed at night worrying about all sorts you will be a nervous wreck by the time we are out the EU,

Have a bit of confidence in your fellow Englishman, we will do better than ok, ok ?

Sorry I do not know how to post a link but if you want to see the extent of car manufacturing in China just google it and you will find they have already started selling them in the United States,

Sweet dreams.

Quoted from grimsby pete

Sorry I do not know how to post a link but if you want to see the extent of car manufacturing in China just google it and you will find they have already started selling them in the United States,

Sweet dreams.

Only one of the top seven car manufacturers in China is Chinese. They produced 1.4 million models in 2016. Sounds like the Chinese aren't that struck on Chinese cars (a lot of which have European nous involved in their making) never mind exporting them.

Quoted from grimsby pete

I thought I was the one who suffered with depression Ian , you must go to bed at night worrying about all sorts you will be a nervous wreck by the time we are out the EU,

Have a bit of confidence in your fellow Englishman, we will do better than ok, ok ?

Well there you go Pete. I have this ridiculous habit of taking notice of things that people who've worked in certain industries etc all of their lives rather than what people on a football message board say. I'll google the Rover thing and let you know...

Quoted from grimsby pete

Plus there are Hundreds and Hundreds of millions ( too many to count ) of people living in China and India.
They also want trade deals with us.

AND

Boris said today if the EU think we are giving them billions for a divorce payment they can go whistle.

Yep..in the village of Hzou hou in the Chines hinterland the discussion in the paddy fields as they try to save the rice harvest is of little else...

Quoted from Grim74

Let's not forget the great news from president Trump he wants a free trade deal with the UK as soon as we leave the EU. The US economy is 35% larger than the EU27's suck on that Merkel.

It may mean nothing but on Sunday Trump was for a joint anti-cyber crime initiative with Putin's Russia. Today apparently it's never going to happen...says all you need to know about how much store you can place in his word. I do hope you are right though..

Quoted from barralad

Only one of the top seven car manufacturers in China is Chinese. They produced 1.4 million models in 2016. Sounds like the Chinese aren't that struck on Chinese cars (a lot of which have European nous involved in their making) never mind exporting them.

How many of the top 20 car manufacturers in Britain are British ?

It does not matter does it ?

We only want one Chinese manufacturer to start in our country and sell cars at a lower price than all the others and that will bring the prices down for all of us.

My Chinese friend who is telling me all these facts is certain that this will happen and plans have already been drawn up to build the first Chinese car factory in England

AT Great Coates . 8)

Quoted from grimsby pete

How many of the top 20 car manufacturers in Britain are British ?

It does not matter does it ?

We only want one Chinese manufacturer to start in our country and sell cars at a lower price than all the others and that will bring the prices down for all of us.

My Chinese friend who is telling me all these facts is certain that this will happen and plans have already been drawn up to build the first Chinese car factory in England

AT Great Coates . 8)

The point he is making is that until they start to get a hold of their own domestic market and increase their share there ahead of Japanese, Korean and American manufacturers, they are hardly likely to sink millions in building a factory from scratch the other side of the world for a relatively small (compared to China) market that no longer has free access to the EU. The Chinese are slowly catching up, particularly in the value for money market and they've started eating in to some of the American manufacturers market share; Chevrolet and Fiat have both seen significant falls in their sales in China. But it will be a while before they are the market leaders and before then it's very doubtful they'll look to start selling their cars in our market where they have no reputation or brand loyalty to speak of.

Geely Group actually own Volvo already and so that probably rules out one of their biggest car companies opening up a factory in the UK, they've already got a factory in Gothenburg and thus have access to the single market. I'd suggest that any of their other major manufacturers would be more likely to open up a factory somewhere in the EU than in the UK purely because it is a much bigger market than we are.

The main objective of all car makers is to make a profit,

All the cars that we buy every years makes millions for them,

So when Brexit arrives will they price themselves out of business or will they take a hit, ?

A smaller profit is better than no profit or no sale at all,

I worked as a new car salesman so I know how much profit is in a new car,

Believe me its a lot, there is plenty of wiggle room.

Quoted from barralad

Yep..in the village of Hzou hou in the Chines hinterland the discussion in the paddy fields as they try to save the rice harvest is of little else...

What the hell has that got to do with anything, ?

The next thing you will be telling me is the Welsh shag sheep.

Quoted from barralad

Well there you go Pete. I have this ridiculous habit of taking notice of things that people who've worked in certain industries etc all of their lives rather than what people on a football message board say. I'll google the Rover thing and let you know...

Yes and for every so called expert that says we are doomed there will be one saying we will do good.

Quoted from grimsby pete

The main objective of all car makers is to make a profit,

All the cars that we buy every years makes millions for them,

So when Brexit arrives will they price themselves out of business or will they take a hit, ?

A smaller profit is better than no profit or no sale at all,

I worked as a new car salesman so I know how much profit is in a new car,

Believe me its a lot, there is plenty of wiggle room.

Is that not exactly what I and others have said previously? The EU car manufacturers will still sell their cars here but it'll either eat in to their profit margins or the consumer will take a hit. And I bet I know who'll be the one to lose out. But then you started going on about no deal meaning no trade whatsoever and how we were all going to be driving Chinese cars within the next years after they build a factory in the UK ;D.

No deal will not mean we stop trading completely for the pure reason that we import about 30% of our food from the EU so if we stopped trading over night there would be bedlam; a shortage of food and the price will skyrocket leading to an increase in inflation.

Quoted from grimsby pete

Yes and for every so called expert that says we are doomed there will be one saying we will do good.

Except that's just not true.

Quoted from grimsby pete

What the hell has that got to do with anything, ?

The next thing you will be telling me is the Welsh shag sheep.

I believe the point Barra was making, and feel free to correct me Barra, is that you said there were millions and millions of people in India and China and they all want trade deals with us. And whilst you are correct in saying that there are very large populations in this area, how much need exactly do you think the vast majority of them will have for our exports?

Quoted from mariner91

I believe the point Barra was making, and feel free to correct me Barra, is that you said there were millions and millions of people in India and China and they all want trade deals with us. And whilst you are correct in saying that there are very large populations in this area, how much need exactly do you think the vast majority of them will have for our exports?

What you remainers keep saying is we are all doomed,

Have a little confidence in your fellow man,

Do not forget we buy a lot more than we sell to the EU so they should be concerned where we will buy our goods from if we do not buy them from the EU.

My comment about no deal has always been if we do not have a deal how can we trade with them?

You say that they will put a tariff on any goods , well isn't that a deal we buy there goods for a higher price so that a deal,

I was talking about No Deal which means we will not trade with them. understand now ?

We are going round in circles here so I suggest we adjourn until Brexit is here and we have new deals with whoever in place and then see who was right,

Finally everybody are interested if you want to buy their goods whatever country they live in,

We only have to find less than half of that amount to buy our goods.

Always look on the bright side of life young man or you will worry yourself into an early grave.

Patrick Minford is the only noted economist I've seen who has claimed Brexit will be good for our economy and even he admits that we take a hit in the shorter term (i.e. for a decade or more). Not to mention the fact that his work has been described as "doubly misleading" because of some of the ridiculous assumptions therein:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexiteers-economists-for-brexit-patrick-minford-study-doubly-misleading-eu-uk-trade-deal-tariff-a7691271.html

His work also biazrrely assumes that we'll suddenly do more trade with countries further away, even though all evidence shows that you trade more with your nearest neighbours than anywhere else. Which is pretty obvious, when you think about it.

That's one economics professor who thinks Brexit will be a benefit, Pete. You'll struggle to find any other economists who agree with him.

Quoted from Maringer

Patrick Minford is the only noted economist I've seen who has claimed Brexit will be good for our economy and even he admits that we take a hit in the shorter term (i.e. for a decade or more). Not to mention the fact that his work has been described as "doubly misleading" because of some of the ridiculous assumptions therein:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexiteers-economists-for-brexit-patrick-minford-study-doubly-misleading-eu-uk-trade-deal-tariff-a7691271.html

His work also biazrrely assumes that we'll suddenly do more trade with countries further away, even though all evidence shows that you trade more with your nearest neighbours than anywhere else. Which is pretty obvious, when you think about it.

That's one economics professor who thinks Brexit will be a benefit, Pete. You'll struggle to find any other economists who agree with him.

I did say lets adjourn until we know how it turns out but I will reply to your last post on the subject for now at least,

Baralad said he took note of people involved in industry not someone on a message board,

That was what I was replying to, that for every one that says we will be worse off you will find another one saying we will be good,

Until its in place neither you nor me knows, lets just wait and see,

Then afterwards I will be able to tell you,

I told you we would be alright ;D

BTW Nobody is talking about Brexit around here the only place I can have a chat about it is on here.

Quoted from grimsby pete

What you remainers keep saying is we are all doomed,

Have a little confidence in your fellow man,

Do not forget we buy a lot more than we sell to the EU so they should be concerned where we will buy our goods from if we do not buy them from the EU.

My comment about no deal has always been if we do not have a deal how can we trade with them?

You say that they will put a tariff on any goods , well isn't that a deal we buy there goods for a higher price so that a deal,

I was talking about No Deal which means we will not trade with them. understand now ?

We are going round in circles here so I suggest we adjourn until Brexit is here and we have new deals with whoever in place and then see who was right,

Finally everybody are interested if you want to buy their goods whatever country they live in,

We only have to find less than half of that amount to buy our goods.

Always look on the bright side of life young man or you will worry yourself into an early grave.

We may buy more total from them but in terms of percentages, a much greater percentage of our exports go to the EU than their exports come here.

No deal would not mean we don't trade with them at all, I have no idea why you think this. We'd still be part of the WTO and the EU would still be as well. Like I've already said, if we stopped trading with them completely we'd lose 30% of our food over night. Understand now? I agree that it's probably best we stop with this debate as it seems you're getting easily confused and have little understanding of what the debate is actually about.

As a parting note, here is what will likely happen if absolutely no deal is made:

"At the moment the UK is part of the EU's single market, meaning goods and services are traded across the Channel without barriers or paperwork.
This arrangement will come to an end in March 2019 when the two year Article 50 window closes.

If the UK doesn't fix a new trade agreement with the EU, trade would fall back on World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules, the government says.
Under WTO rules, which were set up to facilitate global trade, a country must give the same degree of market access to all WTO members as it gives to its "most favoured nation". In other words there can be no special favours in the absence of a proper trade deal.

The UK trades with lots of countries under WTO rules. But the terms are far less favourable than trading within the single market, which is almost frictionless. The sudden imposition of WTO rules is likely to mean tariffs and customs checks, leading to increased financial and bureaucratic costs for British firms buying and selling goods from abroad."

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39294904

Quoted from grimsby pete

Baralad said he took note of people involved in industry not someone on a message board,

That was what I was replying to, that for every one that says we will be worse off you will find another one saying we will be good,

And Maringer pointed out that there is only one noted economics "expert" that believes Brexit will be positive.

Quoted from Grim74

Distances don't mean anything now, Its not the 1800s Maringer or haven't you remoaniacs noticed?

We will still be trading with Europe! America is one of 37 countries wanting FTAs with us the others include the world's 2nd, 3rd, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th & 13th largest economies.

Well this is what we are exporting.... Machinery including computers, Vehicles, Pharmaceuticals,Gems, precious metals Electrical machinery, Mineral fuels including oil,Aircraft, spacecraft,Optical, technical, medical apparatus, Plastics, plastic articles Organic chemicals etc, $54.7B

As for the banks nothing but classic scaremongering London is consistently one of the leading financial centres in the world.

'Remoniac'? Your posts are becoming more and more absurd.

We aren't exporting anything in the way of computers, believe me. We don't manufacture any of the processors, memory, storage or other hardware used in computers (mostly manufactured in the far east these days), so to imagine we export large quantities of computers is preposterous! There's a good reason why most of the major PC (and smartphone) manufacturers get all their stuff built in China/Taiwan/South Korea/Japan. It's the region where most of the hardware in them is manufactured. Oh, not to forget the monitors which are all produced in these countries as well. Still, what do those crazy South Koreans know, eh? After all, I seem to think that around 70% of their population are educated to degree level.

As for the rest of the list, gems? Not sourced here, that's for sure. Oil? Production declining massively and the oil industry actually cost us money last year from tax rebates:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/apr/04/north-sea-oil-and-gas-industry-cost-taxpayer-396m-in-2016

Just wait for more to come as the oil companies claim rebates for their decommissioning costs in the future.

The fact is that we do 5 times as much business with Europe as the rest of the world and, even is this ratio changes in a minor way after Brexit, our geographical location means that it isn't going to change much. Brexiteers seem to somehow imagine that we'll suddely find all sorts of new markets for our limited amount of stuff whereas, in actuality, everything will stay pretty much the same but with more difficulty in dealing with our main trading partners in Europe.

As for the banks, you do realise that one of the major draws of our banking sector was its access to the EU? It was handy for the American financial sector to base lots of their assets over here with access to the EU. Not going to be the case in a couple of years which is why various European cities are going to eat our lunch when it comes to the financial sector.

There has been far too much name calling on here,

Roll on the football season,

We all want Town to be a success so we all agree on that at least.

My wife always tells me never talk about religion and politics,

AND

She is right as usual.

Quoted from grimsby pete

What the hell has that got to do with anything, ?

The next thing you will be telling me is the Welsh shag sheep.

Pete. It was my attempt at a bit of ironic humour to try to calm things down.
I doubt very much that the village mentioned exists as in I just put some letters down that might look Chinese. The point I was trying to make was that the vast majority of the 1+ billion people that you seem to think we will trade with live in entirely rural areas where any reference to Western consumerism is markedly absent. I have a friend who works in the petro chemical industry as a chemist who was asked to name his salary such is the respect the Chinese have for our expertise in such areas but we are exporting knowledge not goods. As I said I hope you are right but it is a hope rather than being a sure thing. Let's face it neither of us are spring chickens who are going to have to live for decades with the repercussions good or bad of these tumultuous times. I have real concerns for my grandchildren and their children.

Quoted from Maringer

'Remoniac'? Your posts are becoming more and more absurd.

We aren't exporting anything in the way of computers, believe me. We don't manufacture any of the processors, memory, storage or other hardware used in computers (mostly manufactured in the far east these days), so to imagine we export large quantities of computers is preposterous! There's a good reason why most of the major PC (and smartphone) manufacturers get all their stuff built in China/Taiwan/South Korea/Japan. It's the region where most of the hardware in them is manufactured. Oh, not to forget the monitors which are all produced in these countries as well. Still, what do those crazy South Koreans know, eh? After all, I seem to think that around 70% of their population are educated to degree level.

As for the rest of the list, gems? Not sourced here, that's for sure. Oil? Production declining massively and the oil industry actually cost us money last year from tax rebates:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/apr/04/north-sea-oil-and-gas-industry-cost-taxpayer-396m-in-2016

Just wait for more to come as the oil companies claim rebates for their decommissioning costs in the future.

The fact is that we do 5 times as much business with Europe as the rest of the world and, even is this ratio changes in a minor way after Brexit, our geographical location means that it isn't going to change much. Brexiteers seem to somehow imagine that we'll suddely find all sorts of new markets for our limited amount of stuff whereas, in actuality, everything will stay pretty much the same but with more difficulty in dealing with our main trading partners in Europe.

As for the banks, you do realise that one of the major draws of our banking sector was its access to the EU? It was handy for the American financial sector to base lots of their assets over here with access to the EU. Not going to be the case in a couple of years which is why various European cities are going to eat our lunch when it comes to the financial sector.

Whilst I mostly agree with you my understanding is that the banking sector is pretty safe given that there is nowhere else that can call on the years of expertise and familiarity with processes currently held by London.

I too love my grandchildren 2 of them are always here with me at this time of day,

They will be fine and we will make a success of things either with a good trade deal with the EU or not.

We are not going to the dogs mate , keep your chin up.

Well that's put my mind at rest now you've said that. Nothing to worry about.

Quoted from barralad

Whilst I mostly agree with you my understanding is that the banking sector is pretty safe given that there is nowhere else that can call on the years of expertise and familiarity with processes currently held by London.

The biggest issue is to do with bank passporting (no, I'd never heard of it until last year either). The reports seem to indicate we won't be able to keep this if we don't keep single market access which seems all but an impossibility given the current situation:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36630606

Without this passporting, the banks won't be able to work across the EU in the same way they can now so will simply wind down many of their operations here regardless of the bribes, I mean incentives we offer them. Also consider that various European cities will already be offering them 'incentives' to move as it is. I'd guess our only chance to keep this passporting is a Norway-style EEA deal but this would have most of the Brexiteers foaming at the mouth as it would mean we would need to sign up for freedom of movement.

One thing is for certain - even without a complete withdrawal, much of the work done in the UK financial sector will be moving abroad to various EU countries. The Irish seem to think they have already secured new business from over a dozen financial companies:

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/brexit-a-dozen-london-firms-banks-moving-to-dublin-ida-says-1.3138874

I'd imagine Frankfurt and Paris will be getting much more themselves.

For what it's worth, the industry body for the UK financial sector claims 70,000 jobs could go abroad. When you consider that well over 10% of our tax receipts come from the financial sector this could be a big problem. Even if the big banks do stay, what sort of sweetheart terms will we have to offer them to do so? Expect a big drop in tax receipts from the financial sector whatever occurs.

Quoted from Maringer

For what it's worth, the industry body for the UK financial sector claims 70,000 jobs could go abroad. When you consider that well over 10% of our tax receipts come from the financial sector this could be a big problem. Even if the big banks do stay, what sort of sweetheart terms will we have to offer them to do so? Expect a big drop in tax receipts from the financial sector whatever occurs.

Only if the conservatives are in power,

We all know Corbyn has got a magic money tree. :)

Quoted from grimsby pete

Only if the conservatives are in power,

We all know Corbyn has got a magic money tree. :)

Now you're just talking nonsense. What would Corbyn being in power and having a "magic money tree" have to do with the lower tax receipts from the financial sector?

Quoted from mariner91

Now you're just talking nonsense. What would Corbyn being in power and having a "magic money tree" have to do with the lower tax receipts from the financial sector?

No I am not talking nonsense I am taking the pi ss like I have been doing for weeks,

I have got as much chance as the Chinese of building cars here,

You remainers are so far up your own bottom I thought I would wind you up,

AND

It was so easy,

BUT

Regarding the magic money tree, that is what May said there was not one but Corbyn thinks he has got one,

Do keep up ;D

Anyway I have finished taking the pee now so I will leave it to you.

Quoted from grimsby pete

No I am not talking nonsense I am taking the pi ss like I have been doing for weeks,

I have got as much chance as the Chinese of building cars here,

You remainers are so far up your own bottom I thought I would wind you up,

AND

It was so easy,

BUT

Regarding the magic money tree, that is what May said there was not one but Corbyn thinks he has got one,

Do keep up ;D

Anyway I have finished taking the pee now so I will leave it to you.

The classic "I was joking the entire time" argument when it's become apparent you have no idea what you're talking about.

Quoted from mariner91

The classic "I was joking the entire time" argument when it's become apparent you have no idea what you're talking about.

There you go again up your own bottom,

If you do not believe me ask cmackenzie4 I told him over a week ago I was enjoying winding you up,

You think your opinion is the right one and anybody saying different is talking nonsense.

I am a retired man who has made a success of myself once leaving Grimsby and I have bought a new car every 3 years since I have been down here , The last one being last month,

So I do know a bit about making money and investments so I am not as daft as you think I am.

So do not make out you know it all because you don't.

Quoted from grimsby pete

There you go again up your own bottom,

If you do not believe me ask cmackenzie4 I told him over a week ago I was enjoying winding you up,

You think your opinion is the right one and anybody saying different is talking nonsense.

I am a retired man who has made a success of myself once leaving Grimsby and I have bought a new car every 3 years since I have been down here , The last one being last month,

So I do know a bit about making money and investments so I am not as daft as you think I am.

So do not make out you know it all because you don't.

What has buying cars got to do with it? Woopdedoo, congrats. They're also about the worst investment an individual can make but I'm sure an expert such as yourself was aware of this.

I don't know it all, I freely admit that. But unlike certain posters, I tend to not give outrageously simple or downright incorrect views and then get arsey when others show them up to be just that. If I don't know about something, I'll either look it up or just accept that perhaps others know more about that subject than me and not resort to name calling, "remoaners" etc.

Quoted from mariner91

What has buying cars got to do with it? Woopdedoo, congrats. They're also about the worst investment an individual can make but I'm sure an expert such as yourself was aware of this.

I don't know it all, I freely admit that. But unlike certain posters, I tend to not give outrageously simple or downright incorrect views and then get arsey when others show them up to be just that. If I don't know about something, I'll either look it up or just accept that perhaps others no more about that subject than me and not resort to name calling, "remoaners" etc.

Buying cars at a lot lless price than you would pay ( if you could ever afford to buy a new one ) plus 2 or 3 holidays abroad over a 30 year period means if I am thick ( which you make out ) what are you ?

Quoted from Maringer

'Remoniac'? Your posts are becoming more and more absurd.

We aren't exporting anything in the way of computers, believe me. We don't manufacture any of the processors, memory, storage or other hardware used in computers (mostly manufactured in the far east these days), so to imagine we export large quantities of computers is preposterous! There's a good reason why most of the major PC (and smartphone) manufacturers get all their stuff built in China/Taiwan/South Korea/Japan. It's the region where most of the hardware in them is manufactured. Oh, not to forget the monitors which are all produced in these countries as well. Still, what do those crazy South Koreans know, eh? After all, I seem to think that around 70% of their population are educated to degree level.

As for the rest of the list, gems? Not sourced here, that's for sure. Oil? Production declining massively and the oil industry actually cost us money last year from tax rebates:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/apr/04/north-sea-oil-and-gas-industry-cost-taxpayer-396m-in-2016

Just wait for more to come as the oil companies claim rebates for their decommissioning costs in the future.

The fact is that we do 5 times as much business with Europe as the rest of the world and, even is this ratio changes in a minor way after Brexit, our geographical location means that it isn't going to change much. Brexiteers seem to somehow imagine that we'll suddely find all sorts of new markets for our limited amount of stuff whereas, in actuality, everything will stay pretty much the same but with more difficulty in dealing with our main trading partners in Europe.

As for the banks, you do realise that one of the major draws of our banking sector was its access to the EU? It was handy for the American financial sector to base lots of their assets over here with access to the EU. Not going to be the case in a couple of years which is why various European cities are going to eat our lunch when it comes to the financial sector.

The voice of Doooooooooooooom!!!! Do you have anything at all positive to say seems you just love putting our country down.

To say we aren't exporting computers is just childish in a way a toddler with a nappie on won't accept he's wearing one🙄

The latest annual stats show that we factually exported $3.69B worth of computers with 11% going to the USA! (Go on tell me that's nothing) now considering we are going to get a favourable trade deal then the $54.7B worth of exports will only increase. Check out the FACTS where you will find we do export gems but mainly gold really good interactive site if your bothered - http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/#Exports

The EU’s share of the world economy has been declining it's a great time to jump ship and connect freely with our world tradeing partners - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11700443/The-EUs-dwindling-importance-to-UK-trade-in-three-charts.html

As far the banks scaremongering there are two sides to every story....... far from a disaster!!!!!
http://www.cityam.com/249639/moodys-says-uk-banks-dont-need-eu-passporting-rights

I might have been taking the mick with mariner 91 Grim,

BUT

I do believe we will be better when we are out of the EU,

I did think when I said "" my Chinese friend gave me all those facts and that China might build a car factory at Great Coates ""

He might have caught on but no he didn't ;D

Quoted from grimsby pete

I might have been taking the mick with mariner 91 Grim,

BUT

I do believe we will be better when we are out of the EU,

I did think when I said "" my Chinese friend gave me all those facts and that China might build a car factory at Great Coates ""

He might have caught on but no he didn't ;D

Yeah totally Pete, it seems some on here are still smarting over losing the referendum and now take delight at any negative news story's unbelievable! why they just cannot accept the result and get behind the majority of the Country is beyond me, we have now got Maringer quoting the biased BBC and they are even more anti Brexit than he is 😂 all you hear on there is .... because of the fears of Brexit!!! but when they reluctantly have to report a good economy news story it's despite Brexit 😂

Quoted from Grim74

The voice of Doooooooooooooom!!!! Do you have anything at all positive to say seems you just love putting our country down.

To say we aren't exporting computers is just childish in a way a toddler with a nappie on won't accept he's wearing one🙄

The latest annual stats show that we factually exported $3.69B worth of computers with 11% going to the USA! (Go on tell me that's nothing) now considering we are going to get a favourable trade deal then the $54.7B worth of exports will only increase. Check out the FACTS where you will find we do export gems but mainly gold really good interactive site if your bothered - http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/#Exports

The EU’s share of the world economy has been declining it's a great time to jump ship and connect freely with our world tradeing partners - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11700443/The-EUs-dwindling-importance-to-UK-trade-in-three-charts.html

As far the banks scaremongering there are two sides to every story....... far from a disaster!!!!!
http://www.cityam.com/249639/moodys-says-uk-banks-dont-need-eu-passporting-rights

The banking article is genuinely interesting and helps allay some of my fears. However there is an article link underneath it about the likelihood of the U.K. losing its number 1 clearing house provision post Brexit. Do you have a serious view on that other than you cannot trust experts.

Quoted from barralad

The banking article is genuinely interesting and helps allay some of my fears. However there is an article link underneath it about the likelihood of the U.K. losing its number 1 clearing house provision post Brexit. Do you have a serious view on that other than you cannot trust experts.

Regarding the Chinese Rover thing Ian,

I have looked it up and it should be landing on Mars next year. ;)

Quoted from grimsby pete

Regarding the Chinese Rover thing Ian,

I have looked it up and it should be landing on Mars next year. ;)

LOL Yeah. That's what I got. Talk about market creativity.. :)

Don't forget all the so called experts said this would happen before when we refused to join the EURO yes some traders may of lost there jobs but we still remained number 1. That's not to say I wouldn't take it serious, but the synic in me says it's just the bankers and their mates looking after there own interests AGAIN.

On a personal level, i buy Russian birch plywood. The cost of it has gone up by about 40% since we voted for brexit, so fook brexit i say. It's been a disaster for my business and i am having to raise my prices. All my costings were done last April and now my business is suffering. I can't raise my prices too high so soon after agreeing a pricing structure with my customer, so i have to take a substantial hit.

Quoted from Grim74

Don't forget all the so called experts said this would happen before when we refused to join the EURO yes some traders may of lost there jobs but we still remained number 1. That's not to say I wouldn't take it serious, but the synic in me says it's just the bankers and their mates looking after there own interests AGAIN.

I'm trying to be objective here but why would anyone take what either "side" say without a verylarge pinch of sodium chloride?

Quoted from grimsby pete

Buying cars at a lot lless price than you would pay ( if you could ever afford to buy a new one ) plus 2 or 3 holidays abroad over a 30 year period means if I am thick ( which you make out ) what are you ?

Okay pal. I just find it ironic that the person who gets upset over red crosses or has gone complaining to the mods numerous times because people are being mean, gets so personal.

You've no idea what job I do, how much I earn or what qualifications I may have but sure, you're really intelligent and I'm thick. Tell me again how no deal will mean trade stops completely?

Since when did a holiday abroad prove wealth?

Quoted from Grim74

The voice of Doooooooooooooom!!!! Do you have anything at all positive to say seems you just love putting our country down.

To say we aren't exporting computers is just childish in a way a toddler with a nappie on won't accept he's wearing one🙄

The latest annual stats show that we factually exported $3.69B worth of computers with 11% going to the USA! (Go on tell me that's nothing) now considering we are going to get a favourable trade deal then the $54.7B worth of exports will only increase. Check out the FACTS where you will find we do export gems but mainly gold really good interactive site if your bothered - http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/#Exports

The EU’s share of the world economy has been declining it's a great time to jump ship and connect freely with our world tradeing partners - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11700443/The-EUs-dwindling-importance-to-UK-trade-in-three-charts.html

As far the banks scaremongering there are two sides to every story....... far from a disaster!!!!!
http://www.cityam.com/249639/moodys-says-uk-banks-dont-need-eu-passporting-rights

Sigh. Pointing out factual information is not, 'putting your country down'. That's the sort of half-witted nonsense that Leadsom was ridiculed for the other week. I was correct before - you really are getting more and more absurd.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that you agree with me that we export next to nothing in the way of computers. $3.7 billion makes up less than 0.9% of our exports from your figures. As I pointed out previously, much of the hardware in any computer exports comes from the far east so these exports won't be high-margin items. Using your own source, you'll see that we imported $15 billion of computer goods that year:

http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/import/gbr/show/8471/2015/

A trade deficit of just $11.3 billion that year in computers! Now we're really cooking with gas...

Gems? Well, for diamonds, we exported $1.58 billion versus imports of $2.33 billion, so just a $75 million deficit there. Jewellery? A $50 million deficit. Very kind of you to largely prove my points for me.

The Gold figures are a bit peculiar, that's for sure. We don't mine much in the way of gold here ([url=http://www.indexmundi.com/minerals/?product=gold]link[/url]), a tiny fraction of a percentage of the world's production, in fact. I'd guess it must be that a good chunk of the major gold mining companies must currently be in the UK stock market so therefore we get the value of their exports against our economy. Let's hope they don't decide to decamp elsewhere. Regardless, gold production is at a peak and won't be going higher so don't expect any great changes in this value unless the price of gold leaps up again. Of course, it could also fall a great deal.

As for your link about bank passporting, I would be wary about what Moody's or any of the other ratings agencies say. After all, they were culpable for the financial crash a decade ago after laughably awarding junk bonds AAA ratings. It will be interesting to see if what they say is correct in this regard, though even their report said the following:

Quoted Text

Moody's did say it was "likely that some banks and other financial services companies may choose to move some UK-based activities to the EU before the withdrawal negotiations are complete, given the uncertainty of the outcome."

Once they've moved, they aren't likely to be back too soon.

There we go, then. More factual information (or as factual as can be provided). Does this make me some kind of a traitor, then?

Quoted from grimsby pete

I am a retired man who has made a success of myself once leaving Grimsby and I have bought a new car every 3 years since I have been down here , The last one being last month,

Are you actually buying that car, Pete, or are you just leasing it on a PCP? If so, you don't actually own the car unless you pay the balloon payment. If you're actually buying outright then selling every few years, you must be losing an absolute fortune in depreciation.

As for the Magic Money Tree stuff, as I've previously explained, if you have a fiat currency of which you are the sole issuer there really is no limit (within reason) to how much money you can create.

The state can create as much money as it likes (as shown by QE) and has also authorised banks to create money as well, though to a more limited degree. In fact, I suppose you can say there are actually two magic money trees:

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/tle-pick/magic-money-tree-fact-two/26/06/

Quoted from mariner91

Okay pal. I just find it ironic that the person who gets upset over red crosses or has gone complaining to the mods numerous times because people are being mean, gets so personal.

You've no idea what job I do, how much I earn or what qualifications I may have but sure, you're really intelligent and I'm thick. Tell me again how no deal will mean trade stops completely?

Since when did a holiday abroad prove wealth?

Well you are wrong with most things you have come out with and you are wrong again,

I have never complained to the mods about red crosses or about anybody,

I fight my own battles so if you want to talk face to face that can be arranged,

I did put a thread on once to ask the question on why people put ticks and crosses on,

I never said I was wealthy either, I just pointed out if I was thick which you kept implying how come I have been able to do all these things plus retire when only 59.

I have no interest in what you do or how much you earn,

What I do not like about you is the way you make out ; every body is wrong if they have a different opinion to you,

I have never called you a remoaner like you put on another post so you are wrong again,

I am fed up of taking the urine out of you now because there is nothing left, ;D

Enjoy your life and your retirement when you get to 75 you would have earned it.

Quoted from Maringer

Are you actually buying that car, Pete, or are you just leasing it on a PCP? If so, you don't actually own the car unless you pay the balloon payment. If you're actually buying outright then selling every few years, you must be losing an absolute fortune in depreciation /

That post was not aimed at you mate , it was mariner91 getting up my nose a bit making out I talk rubbish so must be thick,

As it happens I do not and have never have leased a car, I buy a new one when I want because I can.

That is not me being flash but I have earned my money so I can spend it on what I want,

I have been retired for over 10 years now and I am comfortable not wealthy,

I planned all my working life that I would retire at 58 so I could enjoy my retirement but had to wait until I was 59 when my last investment paid out,

I don't know why we can not have different views on things without the" I know better than you" attitude that 91 gives out so that's why I started taking the urine,

He is so up his own bottom that he still did not believe me when I told him I was winding him up,

I thought that the Chinese building a car factory at Great Coates would convince him but no it didn't.

Quoted from grimsby pete

Well you are wrong with most things you have come out with and you are wrong again,

I have never complained to the mods about red crosses or about anybody,

I fight my own battles so if you want to talk face to face that can be arranged,

I did put a thread on once to ask the question on why people put ticks and crosses on,

I never said I was wealthy either, I just pointed out if I was thick which you kept implying how come I have been able to do all these things plus retire when only 59.

I have no interest in what you do or how much you earn,

What I do not like about you is the way you make out ; every body is wrong if they have a different opinion to you,

I have never called you a remoaner like you put on another post so you are wrong again,

I am fed up of taking the urine out of you now because there is nothing left, ;D

Enjoy your life and your retirement when you get to 75 you would have earned it.

I've made out you're wrong when you undoubtedly are so which has been on a number of occasions when discussing things like Brexit and politics, topics you evidently have very little grasp of. I know for a fact that you've complained about posters calling you names on here before but then reality seems to be difficult for you to comprehend at times so I guess I'll forgive you for the lapse in memory. Your unwavering belief that you have been far more successful than I will ever be is quite amusing especially considering you said you worked as a car salesman. How could I ever top that?

Come on now chaps...it's getting desperate. Nothing to be gained from this public spat. The whole thing does go to show though how deeply the country is divided with neither side willing to give an inch.
Can we call it a draw?

Quoted from barralad

Come on now chaps...it's getting desperate. Nothing to be gained from this public spat. The whole thing does go to show though how deeply the country is divided with neither side willing to give an inch.
Can we call it a draw?

That's fine by me Ian but 91 has no idea how much a successful car salesmen can earn,

When I was doing it I was on more money than the Prime Minister.

The End

Quoted from grimsby pete

That's fine by me Ian but 91 has no idea how much a successful car salesmen can earn,

When I was doing it I was on more money than the Prime Minister.

The End

If I was you I would stop digging mate, Bragging about how much richer than you I am is never a good look, even some Tories find it a little crude

Quoted from ginnywings

On a personal level, i buy Russian birch plywood. The cost of it has gone up by about 40% since we voted for brexit, so fook brexit i say. It's been a disaster for my business and i am having to raise my prices. All my costings were done last April and now my business is suffering. I can't raise my prices too high so soon after agreeing a pricing structure with my customer, so i have to take a substantial hit.

Sorry to hear that... sadly there will always be winners and losers just like our fishing industry that lost thanks to the EU's common fisheries policy.

Why not call a truce on this one ,some of us are conservatives some socialist, unlikely any of us will greatly change our views and so this fighting is really not worth it. Roll on the football season utm

Quoted from codcheeky

If I was you I would stop digging mate, Bragging about how much richer than you I am is never a good look, even some Tories find it a little crude

I am not the one looking down on another persons job.

Quoted from Maringer

Sigh. Pointing out factual information is not, 'putting your country down'. That's the sort of half-witted nonsense that Leadsom was ridiculed for the other week. I was correct before - you really are getting more and more absurd.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that you agree with me that we export next to nothing in the way of computers. $3.7 billion makes up less than 0.9% of our exports from your figures. As I pointed out previously, much of the hardware in any computer exports comes from the far east so these exports won't be high-margin items. Using your own source, you'll see that we imported $15 billion of computer goods that year:

http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/import/gbr/show/8471/2015/

A trade deficit of just $11.3 billion that year in computers! Now we're really cooking with gas...

Gems? Well, for diamonds, we exported $1.58 billion versus imports of $2.33 billion, so just a $75 million deficit there. Jewellery? A $50 million deficit. Very kind of you to largely prove my points for me.

The Gold figures are a bit peculiar, that's for sure. We don't mine much in the way of gold here ([url=http://www.indexmundi.com/minerals/?product=gold]link[/url]), a tiny fraction of a percentage of the world's production, in fact. I'd guess it must be that a good chunk of the major gold mining companies must currently be in the UK stock market so therefore we get the value of their exports against our economy. Let's hope they don't decide to decamp elsewhere. Regardless, gold production is at a peak and won't be going higher so don't expect any great changes in this value unless the price of gold leaps up again. Of course, it could also fall a great deal.

As for your link about bank passporting, I would be wary about what Moody's or any of the other ratings agencies say. After all, they were culpable for the financial crash a decade ago after laughably awarding junk bonds AAA ratings. It will be interesting to see if what they say is correct in this regard, though even their report said the following:

Once they've moved, they aren't likely to be back too soon.

There we go, then. More factual information (or as factual as can be provided). Does this make me some kind of a traitor, then?

$3.7B and growing.... but you implied we don't sell any 🤔 so now your are rubbishing the amount very patriotic of you, would you be more happy if we wasn't selling any maybe get the deficit up to a nice round $15B

That sentence contained about as much meaningful content as any random interview with Theresa May.

Your computer export success story is actually a massive computer import deficit which is unsurprising because, as I noted, we don't produce any of the hardware here, don't have any of the major manufacturers and don't own the rights to produce any of the technology. You're literally cheering on the best part of £10 billion of our current account deficit. That's money leaving our economy for overseas.

It's like claiming victory when GTFC lose 1-4 because we've scored a goal!

My take on all this is that in order to quell the never ending debate over Europe that has blighted the Tory party for decades, Cameron decided to once and for all put the issue to bed by having a referendum, fully expecting the electorate to back him and stay in the EU. Just like May, he got it massively wrong and a lot of misguided little Englanders, with their xenophobic tendencies decided that we were better off as a sovereign nation standing alone, just like a lot of Tories do, who still hark back to the fifties. They convinced people that we would be better off standing alone and don't need "Johnny Foreigner" in some kind of throwback to the days of empire. A lot of the older generation and a great amount of union jack waving "patriots" jumped all over this idea, not knowing or caring what the actual outcome would be. But hey, we have our country back. A poorer, more dysfunctional country, with less rights for workers will ensue but we are a proud nation again. Only we are not, and i think letting the general public decide our future trade deals and standing in Europe is a disastrous mistake. Most people don't know a good thing when they see it and will eventually see the error they have committed in the name of patriotism and jingoism. There is strength in unity and nothing good ever comes of division.

I don't expect everyone will have this view and i expect it will be challenged by Grim and his cohorts, but this is what i and others think and all the talking in the world won't change my view that we have made a grave mistake. One good thing to come out of all this is that it has mobilised the young, who are right royally pi$$ed off at what has happened and dealt the Tories a blow at the General Election. Let's hope the fookers are taking notice.

I see the German car makers are starting to panic,

They need some reassurance that there will not be a cliff edge but a prolong period of agreement

after Brexit before they invest any more money in England,

I have just remembered about the fake cars that where as good as the German cars at half the price,

It was not China it was India ;D

Quoted from grimsby pete

I see the German car makers are starting to panic,

They need some reassurance that there will not be a cliff edge but a prolong period of agreement

after Brexit before they invest any more money in England,

I have just remembered about the fake cars that where as good as the German cars at half the price,

It was not China it was India ;D

I doubt it. There are many more markets for them. We might be somewhere to invest though to take advantage of cheap labour and plenty of flexibility for employers - i.e. when all the 'red tape' (aka employment, safety and environmental regulations are lifted).

No surprise that Ze Germans have announced that they are going to build their electric Minis in their UK factory as it won't require any new production lines to be built and will keep the 'Britishness' of the brand going. Of course, the initial numbers of electric cars will be low for some years yet and the expensive bits - electric motors and the batteries - will be manufactured in Germany.

Quoted from Maringer

No surprise that Ze Germans have announced that they are going to build their electric Minis in their UK factory as it won't require any new production lines to be built and will keep the 'Britishness' of the brand going. Of course, the initial numbers of electric cars will be low for some years yet and the expensive bits - electric motors and the batteries - will be manufactured in Germany.

The government said today that all sales of petrol and diesel cars will be stopped by 2040,

So all cars will have to be electric by then,

The only thing I think needs improving is the charging time, the performance has improved by leaps and bounds over the last year or so,

Batteries are still expensive and relatively heavy as well, Pete. It's not just the charging speed though the Tesla superchargers show what even current battery technology can achieve. Not that they have supercharger stations in the UK because Dale Vince won't let them build any! Edit: I've just seen that they do have a few superchargers now. Didn't realise that they had sorted things out with ecotricity.

We're certainly not too far away, however and there is masses of research into this field into different battery chemistries and packaging and we're almost at the tipping point. It'll be the best part of a decade before they become really commonplace, however.

I have to admit that I'm a bit of an electric car geek though I've yet to own one. Should be able to keep my diesel running for a few years longer so that I can hopefully move straight to an electric car next time I buy. :)

When electric cars really do take off (so to speak), it won't be great for mechanics as the electric motors could easily work for decades without any real servicing required and pure electric cars don't have a transmission to worry about either. Just minor servicing will be enough to keep the cars on the road for a very long time indeed, just as long as the batteries hold up. We're probably better off with them in this country as opposed to many others as we don't need to worry too much about extremes of temperature which can damage battery life at present.

What are the price for these electric cars and will people be able to afford them? I was listening to a debate on the radio earlier and heard a price tag of £50+ grand for some models.

What will happen to lorries and vans who are driving up and down the country on a daily basis and restricted to certain times driving?

I can just see somebody putting solar panels on the roof so the wise man who made his own electric powered car wont have to pay high electric bills for charging his battery. 8)

Quoted from cmackenzie4

What are the price for these electric cars and will people be able to afford them? I was listening to a debate on the radio earlier and heard a price tag of £50+ grand for some models.

What will happen to lorries and vans who are driving up and down the country on a daily basis and restricted to certain times driving?

Don't worry Chris by the time 2040 gets here they will be half the price,

BUT

With inflation they will still be £50 grand. ;)

Quoted from ginnywings

My take on all this is that in order to quell the never ending debate over Europe that has blighted the Tory party for decades, Cameron decided to once and for all put the issue to bed by having a referendum, fully expecting the electorate to back him and stay in the EU. Just like May, he got it massively wrong and a lot of misguided little Englanders, with their xenophobic tendencies decided that we were better off as a sovereign nation standing alone, just like a lot of Tories do, who still hark back to the fifties. They convinced people that we would be better off standing alone and don't need "Johnny Foreigner" in some kind of throwback to the days of empire. A lot of the older generation and a great amount of union jack waving "patriots" jumped all over this idea, not knowing or caring what the actual outcome would be. But hey, we have our country back. A poorer, more dysfunctional country, with less rights for workers will ensue but we are a proud nation again. Only we are not, and i think letting the general public decide our future trade deals and standing in Europe is a disastrous mistake. Most people don't know a good thing when they see it and will eventually see the error they have committed in the name of patriotism and jingoism. There is strength in unity and nothing good ever comes of division.

I don't expect everyone will have this view and i expect it will be challenged by Grim and his cohorts, but this is what i and others think and all the talking in the world won't change my view that we have made a grave mistake. One good thing to come out of all this is that it has mobilised the young, who are right royally pi$$ed off at what has happened and dealt the Tories a blow at the General Election. Let's hope the fookers are taking notice.

Ah the language of a quisling.... spoken like a true anti-British, anti democratic bitter remoaner.... have you no dignity?
How dare you insult millions of your fellow countrymen for daring to be brave to go against the propaganda and vote for an independent sovereign nation, free from the shackles of a failing dictating federal state.

I was raging when I first read your your outrages, spiteful, and nasty comments but I decided to hold back, luckily my iPad survived and now after reading them again Im not even angry, the word disgrace gets banded about all to flippantly these days but in you case you are a true definition.

As for the young being drunk off they must be in meltdown now that Corbyn has been exposed as charlatan 😂😂😂

Quoted from Maringer

No surprise that Ze Germans have announced that they are going to build their electric Minis in their UK factory as it won't require any new production lines to be built and will keep the 'Britishness' of the brand going. Of course, the initial numbers of electric cars will be low for some years yet and the expensive bits - electric motors and the batteries - will be manufactured in Germany.

So a German company decides it wants to invest post Brexit so are you saying this a positive Brexit story or another despite Brexit? Can't quite decide 🤔

The new Tesla 3 ought to cost around as much as a low end BMW. Hardly affordable for many, but a big improvement compared to earlier models. And it won't depreciate precipitously in the way that most modern cars do.

Of course, the chances of actually getting one at list price are slim, given the low production levels!

Electric motors themselves aren't that expensive and the power circuitry won't be too expensive when mass produced. If they can sort out the battery situation, we will get them down to the same price as regular, cheaper cars. The batteries remain the problem. Once that has been resolved (which could take a decade), we won't look back.

Electric cars price will fall just like the coloured TV's did,

If you remember they were very expensive for the first few years,

A 26in one cost me £800,

Last year I bought a 43in for £299,

A bit of difference so if the cars follow the same trend a £50,000 one might be down to £20,000,

The same price as the average car is today but you can pay a lot more if you want a high spec one.

Quoted from Grim74

Ah the language of a quisling.... spoken like a true anti-British, anti democratic bitter remoaner.... have you no dignity?
How dare you insult millions of your fellow countrymen for daring to be brave to go against the propaganda and vote for an independent sovereign nation, free from the shackles of a failing dictating federal state.

I was raging when I first read your your outrages, spiteful, and nasty comments but I decided to hold back, luckily my iPad survived and now after reading them again Im not even angry, the word disgrace gets banded about all to flippantly these days but in you case you are a true definition.

As for the young being drunk off they must be in meltdown now that Corbyn has been exposed as charlatan 😂😂😂

The Daily Mail printing lies about Corbyn convinces no one. Desperate stuff which only head in the sand Tories believe is anything but counterproductive, they keep lying and Corbyn keeps getting more popular

Quoted from Grim74

Ah the language of a quisling.... spoken like a true anti-British, anti democratic bitter remoaner.... have you no dignity?
How dare you insult millions of your fellow countrymen for daring to be brave to go against the propaganda and vote for an independent sovereign nation, free from the shackles of a failing dictating federal state.

Uncle Vladimir told me that too!

Quoted from Grim74

Ah the language of a quisling.... spoken like a true anti-British, anti democratic bitter remoaner.... have you no dignity?
How dare you insult millions of your fellow countrymen for daring to be brave to go against the propaganda and vote for an independent sovereign nation, free from the shackles of a failing dictating federal state.

I was raging when I first read your your outrages, spiteful, and nasty comments but I decided to hold back, luckily my iPad survived and now after reading them again Im not even angry, the word disgrace gets banded about all to flippantly these days but in you case you are a true definition.

As for the young being drunk off they must be in meltdown now that Corbyn has been exposed as charlatan 😂😂😂

Oh, I somehow missed this latest diatribe. Still comical, mind. You're becoming ever-more the parody of a foaming right-wing lunatic.

If (and hopefully, when) the Labour Party get into power, I certainly hope that they do deal with the legacy of student debt which the Tories (of various stripes) have heaped on young workers over the past decade, but let's not try to pretend that there was ever a promise of debt cancellation. As I've stated earlier, my view is that creating money via QE to cancel this legacy debt would certainly give a bigger boost to the economy than we saw from the QE which mostly benefited the wealthy and the banks, but it remains to be seen whether this is the route which would be taken.

Anyhow, enough fake news for now. Off on my hols so unlikely to be posting much over the next week.

Quoted from Maringer

Oh, I somehow missed this latest diatribe. Still comical, mind. You're becoming ever-more the parody of a foaming right-wing lunatic.

If (and hopefully, when) the Labour Party get into power, I certainly hope that they do deal with the legacy of student debt which the Tories (of various stripes) have heaped on young workers over the past decade, but let's not try to pretend that there was ever a promise of debt cancellation. As I've stated earlier, my view is that creating money via QE to cancel this legacy debt would certainly give a bigger boost to the economy than we saw from the QE which mostly benefited the wealthy and the banks, but it remains to be seen whether this is the route which would be taken.

Anyhow, enough fake news for now. Off on my hols so unlikely to be posting much over the next week.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4098921/jeremy-corbyns-student-debt-claims-blasted-after-video-emerged-of-a-shadow-minister-making-the-promise/

No promise he should of told his fellow MPs! don't try and spin out of this one you know dam well what Corbyn implied, and the stupid snowfslaqkes swallowed it. There will be plenty now put off from voting for a very long time Corbyn has proved he's no different to the rest of the pigs he will say owt to get into power.

Had to laugh when Angela Rayner admitted Labour’s plan to scrap student debt would cost £100billion and they don’t know where the money would come from 😂😂😂 and you want these in power😂😂😂

Quoted from Grim74

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4098921/jeremy-corbyns-student-debt-claims-blasted-after-video-emerged-of-a-shadow-minister-making-the-promise/

No promise he should of told his fellow MPs! don't try and spin out of this one you know dam well what Corbyn implied, and the stupid snowfslaqkes swallowed it. There will be plenty now put off from voting for a very long time Corbyn has proved he's no different to the rest of the pigs he will say owt to get into power.

Had to laugh when Angela Rayner admitted Labour’s plan to scrap student debt would cost £100billion and they don’t know where the money would come from 😂😂😂 and you want these in power😂😂😂

Yep you are probably right Grim. Have a word with your mates in No.10 and get them to hold another General Election. Oh wait....

Serious question, we are about or MP's are going to vote on changing EU law into British ones,

What do you suggest we do if the bills do not go through,

Revise them ?

Keep them under the EU ?

Have another election ?

Or what ?

Quoted from grimsby pete

Serious question, we are about or MP's are going to vote on changing EU law into British ones,

What do you suggest we do if the bills do not go through,

Revise them ?

Keep them under the EU ?

Have another election ?

Or what ?

Thankfully the we still have MP's who honour and respect democracy, but these quisling cowardly traitors who have once again betrayed the British public make me sick, I hope the people of Grimsby now see through the treacherous melanie Onn thinks who thinks only about her career and not the views and wishes of the constituents she pretends to represent.

I take heart heart from Corbyn and his band of misfits being defeated once again the champion of lost causes 😄

Quoted from Grim74

Thankfully the we still have MP's who honour and respect democracy, but these quisling cowardly traitors who have once again betrayed the British public make me sick, I hope the people of Grimsby now see through the treacherous melanie Onn thinks who thinks only about her career and not the views and wishes of the constituents she pretends to represent.

I take heart heart from Corbyn and his band of misfits being defeated once again the champion of lost causes 😄

As usual we will have to agree to disagree about the representation provided by Ms Onn. I suspect she is concerned with the very real threat that last nights vote edged us closer to the point where the "Government" can amend legislation about working hours, minimum wage etc.etc. without proper scrutiny by parliament. You will no doubt disagree but I suspect that an awful lot of constituents in Ms Onn's seat will be very worried by that possibility. If you are going to reply please don't use words like traitor, cowardly and treacherous because the last time I looked valid putting forward of alternative views was part of the democratic process you claim to love so much. I'd also remind you that Labour Party policy is to support Brexit. Nobody in their right mind would let the U.K. drift into the sort of Brexit being "negotiated" by the distant relatives of Joey Grimaldi aka Boris, David Davis and co.

After the illegal  vote in Catalan to leave Spain ,

1.   Do you  agree that it was right for them to have the vote. ?

2.   .Do you think Scotland will try and do the same once brexit is finished,?

Whether the government gives them the right to have another vote or not.

Quoted from grimsby pete

After the illegal  vote in Catalan to leave Spain ,

1.   Do you  agree that it was right for them to have the vote. ?

2.   .Do you think Scotland will try and do the same once brexit is finished,?

Whether the government gives them the right to have another vote or not.

How do you know it's illegal? Is there a statute in Spain making votes illegal? If so, where does it end? If there is such a law it'd have to specify which votes are legal - e.g. football clubs (and their members (like Barca AND Real Madrid), company boards, other sorts of clubs, informal gatherings (where shall we go tonight?). Seems a cumbersome instrument.

The UK government will agree to a Scottish referendum again at some point if there is sufficient demand. I think we have a more grown up attitude than the government in Madrid.

Having said that, personally I think Catalan nationalism is a bad idea. Like any other nationalism. I don't see there being the oppression of Catalans that there was under Franco. Where does it leave the sizeable minorities in Catalonia who come from other regions of Spain? What will their rights be under any new country? Will they end up like the 'Russian' (actually many different nationalities from the old SU) minority people in Estonia, denied a passport because they can't speak the majority language to a high enough standard? That could easily lead to further conflict. Think that's an exaggeration? look what happened the last time a European country began to break up under 30 years ago. Look at the state of the Caucasus since the Soviet Union began to falter - there's still at least two wars that haven't formally ended.

Why then stop at the Catalans in Spain? What about the ones in France? Will they join? Ditto the Basques on both sides of the border. Then there's all the other groups in other European countries. Imagine the creation of all those duplicate governments. All the disruption and expense - much like Brexit! We've all got better things to do.

The Guardia Civil are representatives of another kind of nationalism, and in their zealotry have probably done the cause of Catalan nationalism the power of good. Nationalisms always breed other nationalisms. The whole point is to define yourselves differently from other people. It's more insidious than patriotism (which I'd define as love for your homeland, culture and society - but it isn't exclusive). And nationalism caused World War I and World War II, and could easily cause World War III.

Fragmentation of western countries like this also weakens us all relative to the east. That is a strategic concern. Putin, the Chinese guy and Kim are probably all rather pleased about this. We need to find ways of sticking together that respect people's traditions and identity without recourse to civil guard's the baton.

I did not say it was illegal ( well I did ) but was just reporting what the Spanish government told me. ;)

The next to declare independence will be Suffolk, Power to the people (hide1)

Post-independence, you'd have to set up armed borders with Norfolk and Essex, Pete. Cambridgeshire, you'll probably be able to get away with leaving unguarded... ;)

You should reclaim the Sutton Hoo treasures Pete. Wasn't Ragwald (or whatever his name was) a Suffolk boiyy?

I was thinking of running for president of our new country,

I could model myself on Donald Trump. 8)

Quoted from grimsby pete

I was thinking of running for president of our new country,

I could model myself on Donald Trump. 8)

Don't be daft. Suffolk and Norfolk will end up nuking each other.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

Don't be daft. Suffolk and Norfolk will end up nuking each other.

If Norfolk did not stop there nuclear programme I would wipe them off the face of the earth.

Just a minute they are a bit close aren't they ?

The Budget today,

Good Bad or indifferent, ?

Haven't really looked Pete for once. The one thing everyone keeps banging on about is the removal of Stamp Duty for first time buyers. Looks like it's an own goal according to the OBR.

It's a failure of a budget from a failure of a chancellor.

We're in a position where a serious stimulus of the economy is required (just look at the dismal forecasts for the economy and the comments from the OBR and IFS, for instance) but instead we've got Box Office Phil tinkering around the edges, with a headline policy which will just give more money to home owners selling to inflate housing prices even further at the same time that the BoE raises interest rates! Utter idiocy all around.

I thought he might have made building houses a priority but like Maringer said he just tinkered a bit,

It was helpful but I can not see 600 odd houses going up at Peakes Parkway any day soon.

Never mind a football stadium.

Quoted from Maringer

It's a failure of a budget from a failure of a chancellor.

We're in a position where a serious stimulus of the economy is required (just look at the dismal forecasts for the economy and the comments from the OBR and IFS, for instance) but instead we've got Box Office Phil tinkering around the edges, with a headline policy which will just give more money to home owners selling to inflate housing prices even further at the same time that the BoE raises interest rates! Utter idiocy all around.

I wouldn't fret to much on these forecasts going by their track record you may as well predict the weather in 5 years times. As for the stamp duty I'm a bit conflicted here as I thinks it's great for first time buyers in a small northern town like ours but will do nothing for the immigrant swamped City's and may even push up the prices. I see Labour have now gone quite on this after there automatic thoughtless rant it can only mean it's policy they actually agree with.

Cutting stamp duty for first time buyers was a particularly stupid idea because exactly the same policy was tried in the past, without success, under Alistair Darling back in 2010. As we actually have data available from that period, we know that the evidence indicates that it won't reduce prices so won't make housing more affordable. It's will ultimately end up as a tax giveaway to those selling their homes as, if anything, it is likely to keep the prices higher than they should be.

Murphy has a run down of the figures from the 2010-2012 period when this policy was last in place:

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/11/13/stamp-duty-cuts-for-first-time-buyers-the-evidence/

The OBR has been very bad at forecasting (which is admittedly very difficult), previously being hugely over-optimistic about the future which helped to back up the unrealistic forecasts produced the Treasury. This isn't perhaps too surprising when the OBR is located within the Treasury offices - just how independent is it really going to be? The difference this time is that they've given up on their over-optimistic forecasts about how productivity was somehow going to improve after years and years of being hopelessly wrong on the topic. Hence the sudden change from "The economy will be doing really well next year, honest", to "The economy has been doing crap for years and there is no indication this will change in the future".

The complete economic failure of Tory austerity (which you supported) was backed by the OBR's forecasts, so it seems perverse you're now saying, "Oh, they were always wrong anyway". Pretty much every major economist has been pointing out that austerity would be disastrous for years and this truth is now hitting home. How long before the Tories (and their supporters) admit they got it wrong?

I'm not holding my breath.

Quoted from Maringer

The complete economic failure of Tory austerity (which you supported) was backed by the OBR's forecasts, so it seems perverse you're now saying, "Oh, they were always wrong anyway". Pretty much every major economist has been pointing out that austerity would be disastrous for years and this truth is now hitting home. How long before the Tories (and their supporters) admit they got it wrong?

I'm not holding my breath.

Income equality at 30yr low
3+million more jobs - 3/4 full time
U.K. Economy growth (better than the economists predicted)
Deficit cut 2/3
Tax cut for 31m people
Record NHS funding
1.8m more good/outstanding school places

I've said before I'm no Tory but the alternative to this would be in the hands of Marxist nut job who couldn't even answer a simple question on how much we spend on debt, he just cannot make the numbers add up he's totally clueless, if it wasn't for the likes of their fascists supports like Momentum the party would be exposed as the deadbeat phoneys they are.

Quoted from Grim74

1.   Income equality at 30yr low
2.   3+million more jobs - 3/4 full time
3.  U.K. Economy growth (better than the economists predicted)
4.  Deficit cut 2/3
5.  Tax cut for 31m people
6.  Record NHS funding
7.  1.8m more good/outstanding school places

I've said before I'm no Tory but the alternative to this would be in the hands of Marxist nut job who couldn't even answer a simple question on how much we spend on debt, he just cannot make the numbers add up he's totally clueless, if it wasn't for the likes of their fascists supports like Momentum the party would be exposed as the deadbeat phoneys they are.

Been a bit busy, hence the late reply. I'll go through your points one-by-one:

Point 1:   Income inequality has recently fallen to lower levels than previously, but we still have one of the worst levels outside of the developing world. Increases in those on lower incomes have mostly been driven by the increase in incomes for pensioners which is not a bad thing, until you consider that working households are still worse off than they were before the financial crisis:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jan/10/uk-inequality-working-people-pensions-ons

Income aside, let's not forget that wealth inequality is accelerating, both inter-generational and as a whole.

Point 2:  The unemployment figures remain a bit of a conundrum, especially when you consider that real wages are still falling. Full unemployment (which is where we are theoretically at) ought to lead to strong wage growth but it's not happening. Quite the opposite, in fact. Underemployment is still high (though falling) so that's not the answer. My guess is that the surge in 'self-employed' workers is one of the causes as the self-employed earn less on average than 20 years ago:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37678065

Plenty of people are 'forced' to be 'self-employed' by the gig economy so this probably helps to explain strong employment figures alongside falls in wages in real terms. The low levels of unemployment are good, but the falls in wages show how weak the economy is once you scratch the surface.

Point 3:  Not sure what you're talking about as regards economic growth being stronger than predicted? The exact opposite is the case as forecasts have just been severely downgraded. Were you not listening the other week to the budget?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/23/uk-no-earnings-growth-budget-brexit-productivity-ifs

Point 4:  The deficit has certainly been cut, but at a fraction of the rate that Osborne 'planned' with his economically illiterate austerity policies. Something which Hammond has continued. As I've pointed out on numerous occasions in the past, it's certain that the austerity has not only led to a good deal of misery around the country (public sector pay freezes, lack of required NHS funding and so forth), but it just hasn't worked and we've been left with the weakest recovery from a recession for the best part of 200 years. You don't cut your way out of a slump as it is counter-productive. This is something that the OECD, IMF and even the ECB have now admitted. A bit too late, but there you go.

Point 5:   Raising the tax thresholds is indeed good for many people, but as always, most of the giveaway goes to those who are already well-off. Higher-rate tax payers benefit most, those of medium incomes next and the lowest-paid (the ones who need it most) get pretty much nothing at all from it:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/23/higher-rate-uk-taxpayers-gain-most-in-budget-changes

I should also mention that if it is so important to cut the deficit ASAP, why this tax giveaway to the wealthy? Quite literally an example of taking from the poorest (though the benefit cuts earlier this year) to give directly to those better off.

Point 6:   Record NHS funding? Well, if you're looking at basic numbers and completely ignoring the long-term trend, then I suppose you're correct. Here's a quote from the King's Fund which points out the issue succinctly:

Quoted Text

Though funding for the Department of Health continues to grow, the rate of growth has slowed considerably compared to historical trends. The Department of Health budget will grow by 1.1 per cent in real terms between 2009/10 and 2020/21 under current spending plans. This is far below the long-term average increases in health spending of approximately 4 per cent a year (above inflation) since the NHS was established. Under current plans, health spending per person in England will fall in real terms in 2018/19 and 2019/20.

When you've got an ever-aging population such as ours, health costs are going to continue to increase greatly so it's hardly surprising that the NHS is on the brink of a crisis considering the real lack of investment since 2009. Claims that nothing is wrong with our healthcare spending levels are mind-boggling. Anybody who believes this to be true has obviously not been to a doctor's surgery of late or had to visit a hospital.

Point 7: More pupils in 'Good' or 'Outstanding' schools? Not sure, really. Inspection practices have changed over the years which may have had some effect but could possibly be true because (as somebody who is married to a teacher), the workloads are ever-increasing and it's getting to a level not far off breaking point from what I can see. Put it this way, if these figures paint a true picture, it's miraculous. The pay freeze on teachers (which is to continue) and the hit on their pensions means that they are on average £5,000 per year worse off now than a decade ago (in real terms) and will be another £3,000 per year worse off by 2020. Way to go in rewarding the teachers for their good work, eh? That's austerity for you. As the IFS notes, spending on education is falling steeply:

https://www.ifs.org.uk/tools_and_resources/fiscal_facts/public_spending_survey/education

Your final comments about McDonnell show you're still missing the bigger picture here. As were those who leapt on him for not coming up with some bullshit figure when challenged. How could he possibly know what future debt interest costs would be in 5 years time? How could anyone? If he'd magicked up a figure out of thin air he'd have been criticised for something or other else. Really rubbish journalism from Neil, which is not surprising.

The point is that long-term gilts are selling at a rate that is effectively interest free so it is simply idiotic not to invest in our ever-crumbling infrastructure at this point in time. The multiplier will be as near as damnit to 1 so any spending will be recouped and it will provide a much-needed boost to the economy, especially with Brexit coming over the horizon. Another succinct article pointing out the idiocy of these particular attacks on McDonnell:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2017/11/bemoaning-cost-national-debt-missing-point-we-must-invest-economy

Finally, 'fascists'? You seriously think that a load of Labour Party members (including those of Momentum) are acting like fascists? Don't be so silly.

Quoted from Maringer

Been a bit busy, hence the late reply. I'll go through your points one-by-one:

Point 1: Income inequality has recently fallen to lower levels than previously, but we still have one of the worst levels outside of the developing world. Increases in those on lower incomes have mostly been driven by the increase in incomes for pensioners which is not a bad thing, until you consider that working households are still worse off than they were before the financial crisis:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jan/10/uk-inequality-working-people-pensions-ons

At the end of the day these figures can differ depending on what Side of the fence you sit just by changing the calculation will show a positive or not quite as positive but certainly not critical! But figures aside I tend to step outside and see for myself are we really so much worse off?

I've recently been to the USA and Belgium in the last 2 months and I can tell you that I was pleased to get back home because I would struggle to live in these two country's on the food prices alone never mind the household bills, I even went looking for an Aldi whilst in the states but even there was too expensive. Believe me when I say this Country is still relatively cheap to live in if you don't smoke and eat junk food there are some unbelievable bargains to be had I know I'd be simplifying if I said 4 snickers for a quid here yet 1 snicker for 2 euros in Belgium bag of apples here for a quid 5 dollars in the states now that's that's real inequality even the electrical goods this country is so dam cheap compared.

Quoted Text

Point 2: The unemployment figures remain a bit of a conundrum, especially when you consider that real wages are still falling. Full unemployment (which is where we are theoretically at) ought to lead to strong wage growth but it's not happening. Quite the opposite, in fact. Underemployment is still high (though falling) so that's not the answer. My guess is that the surge in 'self-employed' workers is one of the causes as the self-employed earn less on average than 20 years ago:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37678065

Plenty of people are 'forced' to be 'self-employed' by the gig economy so this probably helps to explain strong employment figures alongside falls in wages in real terms. The low levels of unemployment are good, but the falls in wages show how weak the economy is once you scratch the surface.

I think it's marvellous that we now have a generation working people, gone are the days under the Labour government where you could just choose benefits this can only be a positive to the next generation that see mum and dad going out to earn a living, but you can only criticise which is not surprising absolutely no credit at all eh? I accept wages need to go up faster but it's funny how you haven't mentioned the Eu migrants that are on the record as another reason for suppressing wages especially on the low paid - http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/

Quoted Text

Point 3: Not sure what you're talking about as regards economic growth being stronger than predicted? The exact opposite is the case as forecasts have just been severely downgraded. Were you not listening the other week to the budget?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/23/uk-no-earnings-growth-budget-brexit-productivity-ifs

The UK economy expanded more than expected in the third quarter and this went against the remoaning economists predictions, still sluggish yes but this is because of the constant Brexit fearmongering garbage. They try to bring us down they would love to see us suffering they are just shameless cheerleaders for Brussels but scratch beneath the surface and you will see the great news despite Brexit, the latest being that Britains factories are thriving with growth the highest it has been for years - biggest number of new orders since 1988 and factory output grows at its fastest rate since 1995 THIS IS GOOD NEWS that the remainers just want to ignore.

Quoted Text

Point 4: The deficit has certainly been cut, but at a fraction of the rate that Osborne 'planned' with his economically illiterate austerity policies. Something which Hammond has continued. As I've pointed out on numerous occasions in the past, it's certain that the austerity has not only led to a good deal of misery around the country (public sector pay freezes, lack of required NHS funding and so forth), but it just hasn't worked and we've been left with the weakest recovery from a recession for the best part of 200 years. You don't cut your way out of a slump as it is counter-productive. This is something that the OECD, IMF and even the ECB have now admitted. A bit too late, but there you go.

I'm pleased you acknowledge that it's been cut not as much as hoped granted but still interest rates remain low so I'm happy, but let's give some credit this is progress after all even though you don't say so. I don't understand your point as you bemoaned the fact it's only a fraction but at the same time you want clowns in Government who would at least treble the country's debt. -
http://www.cetusnews.com/news/EXPOSED--The-SHOCKING-graph-showing-how-much-DEBT-Labour-really-plans-to-pile-on-Britain.B1ehlLIHz-.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/16/labour-manifesto-would-bankrupt-britain-250bn-debt-biggest-tax/

Quoted Text

Point 5: Raising the tax thresholds is indeed good for many people, but as always, most of the giveaway goes to those who are already well-off. Higher-rate tax payers benefit most, those of medium incomes next and the lowest-paid (the ones who need it most) get pretty much nothing at all from it:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/23/higher-rate-uk-taxpayers-gain-most-in-budget-changes

I should also mention that if it is so important to cut the deficit ASAP, why this tax giveaway to the wealthy? Quite literally an example of taking from the poorest (though the benefit cuts earlier this year) to give directly to those better off.

I wouldn't say someone on £46000 is well off far from it but I do welcome the raising of the tax threshold for millions of us, As for the lowest paid not getting more well your not going to get an argument from me on this one.

Quoted Text

Point 6: Record NHS funding? Well, if you're looking at basic numbers and completely ignoring the long-term trend, then I suppose you're correct. Here's a quote from the King's Fund which points out the issue succinctly:

When you've got an ever-aging population such as ours, health costs are going to continue to increase greatly so it's hardly surprising that the NHS is on the brink of a crisis considering the real lack of investment since 2009. Claims that nothing is wrong with our healthcare spending levels are mind-boggling. Anybody who believes this to be true has obviously not been to a doctor's surgery of late or had to visit a hospital.

I think you know my take on the NHS by now it's been abused and mismanaged beyond control it's nothing but a busted flush, time to stop throwing money into the NHS black hole and look to adopt successful healthcare systems from other country's.

Quoted Text

Point 7: More pupils in 'Good' or 'Outstanding' schools? Not sure, really. Inspection practices have changed over the years which may have had some effect but could possibly be true because (as somebody who is married to a teacher), the workloads are ever-increasing and it's getting to a level not far off breaking point from what I can see. Put it this way, if these figures paint a true picture, it's miraculous. The pay freeze on teachers (which is to continue) and the hit on their pensions means that they are on average £5,000 per year worse off now than a decade ago (in real terms) and will be another £3,000 per year worse off by 2020. Way to go in rewarding the teachers for their good work, eh? That's austerity for you. As the IFS notes, spending on education is falling steeply:

https://www.ifs.org.uk/tools_and_resources/fiscal_facts/public_spending_survey/education

My My you really are a glass half empty kind of person.... your not sure? https://fullfact.org/education/more-pupils-good-or-outstanding-schools/
I think it's great that the inspections focus on the poorly performing schools giving them more opportunity to improve.
As for the public sector pay you won't get any sympathy from me the public sector get paid more than other British workers, and will stand to receive generous pensions compared to the private sector which funny enough is a source of inequality in itself.

Quoted Text

Your final comments about McDonnell show you're still missing the bigger picture here. As were those who leapt on him for not coming up with some bullshit figure when challenged. How could he possibly know what future debt interest costs would be in 5 years time? How could anyone? If he'd magicked up a figure out of thin air he'd have been criticised for something or other else. Really rubbish journalism from Neil, which is not surprising.

The point is that long-term gilts are selling at a rate that is effectively interest free so it is simply idiotic not to invest in our ever-crumbling infrastructure at this point in time. The multiplier will be as near as damnit to 1 so any spending will be recouped and it will provide a much-needed boost to the economy, especially with Brexit coming over the horizon. Another succinct article pointing out the idiocy of these particular attacks on McDonnell:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2017/11/bemoaning-cost-national-debt-missing-point-we-must-invest-economy

Have you watched the interview? It was a very simple question about how much interest we pay on the national debt and he couldn't answer! Neil had to tell him! and this came after a previous interview when he got his answer wrong on the question of what the national debt stood at, even after he resorted to google.....bloody scary to even imagine this nutter in charge.

Quoted Text

Finally, 'fascists'? You seriously think that a load of Labour Party members (including those of Momentum) are acting like fascists? Don't be so silly.

Tell that to lifelong Labour supporter and apprentice star Michelle Dewsbury who was bullied and verbally attacked by momentum, for daring to set up her own pollitical party during the last election because she just didn't agree with Corbyn's policies.