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Quoted from grimsby pete

The best teams we had in the 30's and in the 80's were made up mainly of local players,

That is the way we should be taking now,

BUT

I can not see this happening under Hurst.

Southwell, Walker, Humble , Winfarrah plus the lad who went to Spain ( his name escapes me )
senior moment.

Could all make the back bone of a decent team,

Not at this club by the look of it.

How many times have you seen these lads play?

Quoted from BIGChris

How many times have you seen these lads play?

Are you saying they are not good enough ?

Quoted from 120790

Scoring 30 goals is awesome.
But the quality of the Conference North is poles apart from the Conference Premier

Andy Cook was prolific in the CN but not so in the CP

Actually, I seem to think that Cook scored 17 for Barrow in the season before he joined us. From what I saw of him over the two seasons at the club, this surprises me, as he didn't look up to all that much when he was here!

Quoted from Maringer

Actually, I seem to think that Cook scored 17 for Barrow in the season before he joined us. From what I saw of him over the two seasons at the club, this surprises me, as he didn't look up to all that much when he was here!

Although he scored 16 goals for us in his 1st season.

Your not likely to see them play as PH (and other managers in this league TBH) signing/playing believe one year journey men is the way to get back to the FL. We can't offer longer contracts so may be "grow your own" and a mix of signings id the key?

Quoted from grimsby pete

Are you saying they are not good enough ?

Why the rhetorical question?

I wondered how many times you had seen those players to form the view that they would be the backbone of a decent side?

Quoted from BIGChris

Why the rhetorical question?

I wondered how many times you had seen those players to form the view that they would be the backbone of a decent side?

Just because I live in Suffolk does not stop me having an opinion,

I have family and friends that have seen them play many times,

Please enlighten me with your opinion,

Or do you only ask others why they give theirs,

PS, I understand they are not up to it at the moment but with the right management and encouragement they could.

Quoted from grimsby pete

Although he scored 16 goals for us in his 1st season.

Cooke always looked o.k. to me .......... providing he had the right partner. .

Letting Dayle go was, in my opinion, a mistake.  He deserved and merited another year at least.

I can, however, see why he was released with a tight budget and the thought that his wages could have gone better elsewhere.   Had Ross Hannah's contract expired last summer, it could have been completely different.

We've got to stop this obsession with him though.  We can't keep every player who comes through the youth set-up with our current financial situation.

Quoted from grimsby pete

Are you saying they are not good enough ?

I would have liked to have seen Paul walker given an opportunity but Magnay has been top notch.
The others you mention are a fair bit short of this level IMO

Quoted from BIGChris

I would have liked to have seen Paul walker given an opportunity but Magnay has been top notch.
The others you mention are a fair bit short of this level IMO

We know young players are not as consistent as senior pro's,

BUT

A lot of them that do not make the grade at one club,

Sometimes make a name for themselves at another,

What I have heard of Hurst he does not give the young lads the right message,

Which knocks their confidence and they do not perform to their best,

He once said about Cook that he lacks confidence in himself and I can not put that in him,

Well he could, if he told Cook he was the man enough times,

Cook would have believed him and might have been a lot better player,

IMHO

Quoted from grimsby pete

Although he scored 16 goals for us in his 1st season.

Specifically, I was talking about League (well, Conference) goals which are all that really counts in our current situation. He scored 14 of them for us in two seasons which isn't exactly great.

Pretty sure there'll be a few clubs having a look at Dayle with that kind of scoring record.

Quoted from Maringer

Specifically, I was talking about League (well, Conference) goals which are all that really counts in our current situation. He scored 14 of them for us in two seasons which isn't exactly great.

See my post above,

I believe Hurst knocked all the confidence out of him.

I'm sorry Pete, but a lot of the time (in his second season specifically), Cook simply looked like he couldn't be arsed. His fitness was poor, his efforts were poor and it was pretty embarrassing (not to mention infuriating), to see a young lad who is a professional footballer puffing and blowing after 15 minutes on the pitch because he wasn't working hard enough to earn his wage.

Quoted from Maringer

I'm sorry Pete, but a lot of the time (in his second season specifically), Cook simply looked like he couldn't be arsed. His fitness was poor, his efforts were poor and it was pretty embarrassing (not to mention infuriating), to see a young lad who is a professional footballer puffing and blowing after 15 minutes on the pitch because he wasn't working hard enough to earn his wage.

He has no excuse for not been fit enough,

BUT

Cook was a confidence player and I think he had all his confidence knocked out of him,

So he ended up not been good enough.

Quoted from Maringer

I'm sorry Pete, but a lot of the time (in his second season specifically), Cook simply looked like he couldn't be arsed. His fitness was poor, his efforts were poor and it was pretty embarrassing (not to mention infuriating), to see a young lad who is a professional footballer puffing and blowing after 15 minutes on the pitch because he wasn't working hard enough to earn his wage.

Perhaps you could also consider the fact that Andy Cook had a mental illness that affected his confidence which isn't great when a manager shows no confidence in you. Maybe he's found his level, maybe Dayle has too but maybe they'd have been a better option than other strikers we've got on the books - we'll never know.

Nice to see Southwell has found his level. 8)
UTMM

Quoted from aldi_01

Southwell has found his level. Nobody ever questioned commitment but ability was questionable at this level and further up.

The other names mentioned weren't good enough. Could they have improved with game time etc who knows? Have we the time to wait and see? Probably not.

Christ, people at BP and on here are moaning after 5 minutes/10 minutes if we go a goal behind. If we lose one game in 10 people think it's all over. I don't think the club could gamble on so many young lads at once.

The set up isn't great either but we make do with what we have. Like many fans people talk about their clubs youth set up with rose tinted glasses on. The question that needs asking is how many have graduated through our setup and gone on to play professional football for a sustained period of time or even on to a higher level? Answer is...very few. We all know the recent stories about a certain Mr Barlow who allegedly had ability, went to Hull, was exposed by lads his own age and had a shocking attitude. Where's hevplaying now? That's rofht, for an expensive Sunday league...

.

That's quite a claim you're making about Cook right there, I hope you have some actual evidence or that's quite a stupid post.

I'm struggling to see how 30 goals in a season is somebody 'finding their level' because 30 goals suggests he's better than that level.

The people still slagging off Cook baffle me. So easy to forget the guy was our top scorer in his first season at 21 years old. The second year he was barely ever given a run of games, so quite how you ever expected him to reach the same heights is totally beyond me.

Quoted from aldi_01

[b]As for Cook, I'm sure his mental illness wasn't helped by

I hope you've got good proof or a good lawyer!

Quoted from pizzzza

That's nice.

Should really be in the ex-GTFC players thread though.

Agreed, which is why I put it there, do I get a green tick?!? ;-)

Quoted from gobby

Nice to see Southwell has found his level. 8)
UTMM

Has he though, seems to me that the next level up or one above is where he will be playing soon, I think Hurst is the type of manager that plays safe with the older more experienced players that fits his defensive style

Quoted from Garth

Has he though, seems to me that the next level up or one above is where he will be playing soon, I think Hurst is the type of manager that plays safe with the older more experienced players that fits his defensive style

Not teenagers I accept but most of Hursts signings are early 20's with time to develop and improve. The likes of Mackreth, Clay, Toto etc.

For me this is a pleasant change from signing journey men looking for a last pay day

Quoted from BIGChris

Not teenagers I accept but most of Hursts signings are early 20's with time to develop and improve. The likes of Mackreth, Clay, Toto etc.

For me this is a pleasant change from signing journey men looking for a last pay day

I agree with that but it would be nice to see some local talent in our squad,

In the past we have had the Moore'S Drinkell, Ford, Wilkinson, Oster, Lund to name just a few,

Plus we have had Wainman, Cumming, McDermott and Croft from a young age,

Apart from developing our own players they have given the club much needed cash when they have moved on,

There must be good talent out there, we need to keep them and encourage them so they reach their potential.

Or am I just living in the past ?

Quoted from moosey_club

yes, perhaps they have wingers who can cross a ball, pick a player out with a pull back or have centre mids who can slip a pass inside a defence.

Yes that is correct ,  Dayle scores few headers but  is brilliant with his footwork and shooting and appears to be getting better all the time .

Unless he has changed the style of play PH made the correct decision releasing Dayle ,  a sixfoot- plus striker was always required for his game  plan .

Every one a winner ,  PH rid of a player who does not fit into his plans ,  Boston fans seeing entertaining football , Dayle if he maintains his progress will surely move up a step or two ,  and Dave Newton will recieve a few bob towards his new stadium .

Quoted from bostonian

Yes that is correct ,  Dayle scores few headers but  is brilliant with his footwork and shooting and appears to be getting better all the time .

Unless he has changed the style of play PH made the correct decision releasing Dayle ,  a sixfoot- plus striker was always required for his game  plan .

Every one a winner ,  PH rid of a player who does not fit into his plans ,  Boston fans seeing entertaining football , Dayle if he maintains his progress will surely move up a step or two ,  and Dave Newton will recieve a few bob towards his new stadium .

Don't rub it in :P

Quoted from grimsby pete

I agree with that but it would be nice to see some local talent in our squad,

In the past we have had the Moore'S Drinkell, Ford, Wilkinson, Oster, Lund to name just a few,

Plus we have had Wainman, Cumming, McDermott and Croft from a young age,

Apart from developing our own players they have given the club much needed cash when they have moved on,

There must be good talent out there, we need to keep them and encourage them so they reach their potential.

Or am I just living in the past ?

Pretty much yes you are living in the past.

It is very difficult for teams to keep their best local players these days especially at our level because of the ability of the big clubs to pick and choose who they want to sign and move into their huge sprawling youth systems.

You have named about 10/15 players in 50 years of history that have been developed by ourselves and proved good enough for either us long term or higher levels. That is always unlikely to be enough to build a contingent of local players, especially in the days of fans wanting quick fixes and short term contracts.

As Aldi said above, we have fans that moan if we don't score in the first 10 minutes, or think its the end of the world if we lose one game in 10. Can you imagine the fury if Hurst had gone into this season with a forward line of LJL, Pittman and Southwell?

The fury if he had persisted with Southwell but he proved not to be good enough for our level?

As BigChris also above, Hurst may not go for teenagers as such but he sees them everyday and he wants whats best for the club - his job depends on it. He has however signed an awful lot of players in their early 20's with the potential to develop. Church, Pearson, Mackreth, McKeown, Thomas, Toto, LJL, Artus, Cook amongst several others were all 23 or younger when they signed. Whilst that may not be an outright youth policy, it is certainly trusting younger players.

The problem town have in bringing through young players compared to 30 years ago isn't a problem that the manager or coaching staff at gtfc have caused , it's part of the bigger social problems in the area , and nation really .
There must be so many kids who have never had the chance to discover their natural talent for the sport thanks to lack of sporting facilities at schools , Xbox lifestyles , reality tv famous for having no talent , or increased drug and alcohol problems .
It doesn't help that youth team funding has been hammered thanks to being in the conference that means that hurst , love him or hate him , is under enormous financial pressure . Real life Football Manager if you like , so has to make tough decisions . How many on here would've really guessed DS would've scored 30 goals for Boston ? Not many I reckon .

The most criminal thing about the premiership and TV deals is the complete lack of decent youth funding at all levels. If clubs at every level had access to decent funding for youth coaches and facilities, I doubt Greg Dyke would be messing about with B leagues. I don't have any idea how much it would cost, but one premiership club's annual funding of £80,000,000 at £80,000 per club below league 2 would go a long way.

Quoted from louth_in_the_south

The problem town have in bringing through young players compared to 30 years ago isn't a problem that the manager or coaching staff at gtfc have caused , it's part of the bigger social problems in the area , and nation really .
There must be so many kids who have never had the chance to discover their natural talent for the sport thanks to lack of sporting facilities at schools , Xbox lifestyles , reality tv famous for having no talent , or increased drug and alcohol problems .
It doesn't help that youth team funding has been hammered thanks to being in the conference that means that hurst , love him or hate him , is under enormous financial pressure . Real life Football Manager if you like , so has to make tough decisions . How many on here would've really guessed DS would've scored 30 goals for Boston ? Not many I reckon .

Good points but I said at the time we should have kept him,

Then loaned him out for a season,

Does anybody have an idea how much that would have cost the club, ?

I know its hard to make a judgment on younger players but Southwell did show enough ability and goal scoring prowess to give him another year.

I am not knocking the club or Hurst but Boston will be laughing all the way to the bank if Southwell continues scoring next season.

In my eyes the issue isn't just about the youth coaches, the facilities or even the funding.

It's about the gap between youth football and professional football.  The gulf in both technical and physical terms is huge!  Generally speaking we give one-year deals to the lads who have just graduated from the youth team and expect them to develop physically, technically and mentally to the level of an established professional. If they're to remain at the club not only are they required to match the level of the existing professionals but to surpass them.  For a side like ours without a reserve team and incredibly limited first team opportunities, that's virtually impossible.

Once we ditch this idea that every player reaches their potential at 17 or 18 then we'll see higher retention of youth players.  Southwell is a classic example of a lad who could have done with another year or so to find his feet as a young professional.

Southwell looks to have benefited from having to drop down a level and is fortunate that he didn't have to drop too far where he can rebuild his career and more importantly continue his education.  He's in a small minority though as most lads released after a brief spell as a young pro lose heart and drift down the footballing ladder.  Some where never good enough, some we'll never know.

This new TV money does need to filter down into grass roots more.  We need more coaches, we need better facilities, we need to make coaching more attractive and accessible.  But we also need to develop a structure where young players aren't judged until their much older.

Quoted from grimsby pete

Good points but I said at the time we should have kept him,

Then loaned him out for a season,

Does anybody have an idea how much that would have cost the club, ?

It's a figure weighed up against what else that money was used for.  For example, we'll say the money saved on giving Southwell another contract was used to sign Palmer on loan.  Is Hurst right to use it for that?

Hurst is in a results driven business, instant results at that.  Considering half of the home crowd boo when we're drawing 0-0 after fifteen minutes it's highly unlikely he'll keep his job if he looks to build a long term project is it?

Forget the mega-rich clubs who can afford to have a dedicated youth set-up, a professional set-up and then a development squad.  When finances are tight, you fight fires.  Our fire is getting out of this league, not developing a team for the next generation.  I believe Southwell would have offered something to this squad this season, but I can sure as hell see why Hurst felt the money could be better spent elsewhere in the short-term.

As a side note.  How about this scenario.

Keeping Southwell this year - rough workings £300 a week, £15,600 a year.  Add 20% employee contributions = £18720.

Or let him go to Boston, see what he can do.....if he impresses we put an offer in for him at £20k?  What did Hearn cost us, £30k?

I agree with the above post to a degree but I see the main problem for youths trying to get into the 1st team is,

No reserve team,

In years gone by young players got toughen up playing for the reserves as well as the youth team,

Lets hope when we get back into the league we will reinstate the reserve team.

I didn't think Southwell showed anything to suggest he was worth keeping personally. The times I saw him he didn't impress. I thought it was the right decision to let him go.

That said, I am delighted he has had such a successful season and wish him all the best.

I wish we would stop all these posts about Southwell.

1. Hurst would not go back in for him, despite his record in the league below, as basically he doesn't want to look like he was wrong (look a c*nt).
How many managers release players and resign them when they prove themselves? Not many.
No manager likes to be proven wrong.

2. I don't think that Dayle would resign for Grimsby even if we was interested again.
If it was me, I wouldn't want to sign back for a team who didn't let me prove myself.

3. He's playing in the league below. Is it a massive difference of standard? I honest don't know.

Lets leave him, Hearn, Jack Lester etc etc to just get on with their careers/lives.

Pete you are not living in the past IMO, truth is that Hurst whatever he wiould say would have him back in a jiffy but he won`t Yorkshire pride and all that, you can spin it all you like and I`m sure his water carriers on here will try, but his scoring record in a league below where incidentally we have been known during his time here, to have trawled for a prolific striker has been excellent.
Got rid of too soon IMO

Didn't he score goals for us when he had the chance ?

Regardles he isn't a town player anymore so we need to move on but can't help but think anyone top of the conf north scoring charts would interest us.

Strange because he never looked like he could make us improve but did score..

Maybe one Paul wrong.

I think the difference between Southwell ( and Cook too ) is that Hurst would have played them a lot more (or at least thought about playing them more) if they had scored more when in the team

I'm not saying that they didn't score regularly but to secure their place in the team they would have had to have been on fire and therefore basically undroppable (if that's a word)

Contrast this with Lenny for example (and this is not a criticism of him at all) who is chosen more or less week in week out because he has other attributes

I think we had a discussion on here once about what constitutes a striker and what constitutes a goal scorer...Lenny fits the bill as a striker because he's there as a target man, holds up play and chips in with goals.

Southwell and Cook (and maybe also Hannah) are more goalscorers and Hurst's approach (or so it seems to me) is that they are a luxury unless they are more than prolific

It's all about style and which players suit the manager's tactics...a situation which we as fans can have opinions about but can't really affect

The bottom line is two ex forwards have moved on and so have we...it Southwell and Cook get back in to the Conference Prem (or whatever it'll be called next season) and find their feet again at this level, then good luck to them.

I'm just hoping we get up via the playoffs and arguments about their respective merits can be put to bed once and for all because by then, we should then be looking forward as a league club and not back over our shoulders at our time out of the league

Quoted from FishOutOfWater

I think the difference between Southwell ( and Cook too ) is that Hurst would have played them a lot more (or at least thought about playing them more) if they had scored more when in the team

I'm not saying that they didn't score regularly but to secure their place in the team they would have had to have been on fire and therefore basically undroppable (if that's a word)

Contrast this with Lenny for example (and this is not a criticism of him at all) who is chosen more or less week in week out because he has other attributes

I think we had a discussion on here once about what constitutes a striker and what constitutes a goal scorer...Lenny fits the bill as a striker because he's there as a target man, holds up play and chips in with goals.

Southwell and Cook (and maybe also Hannah) are more goalscorers and Hurst's approach (or so it seems to me) is that they are a luxury unless they are more than prolific

It's all about style and which players suit the manager's tactics...a situation which we as fans can have opinions about but can't really affect

The bottom line is two ex forwards have moved on and so have we...it Southwell and Cook get back in to the Conference Prem (or whatever it'll be called next season) and find their feet again at this level, then good luck to them.

I'm just hoping we get up via the playoffs and arguments about their respective merits can be put to bed once and for all because by then, we should then be looking forward as a league club and not back over our shoulders at our time out of the league

Well put Tim.

The biggest problem we have in developing 1st year pro's is that we don't have a reserve team. Apart from training ground exercises and the occasional friendly , the youngsters don't experience competitive football on a regular basis. Even if they could play at 8th or 9th league tier level this would surely be better than just constant training and the occasional cameo role coming off the bench.

Quoted from diehardmariner

In my eyes the issue isn't just about the youth coaches, the facilities or even the funding.

It's about the gap between youth football and professional football.  The gulf in both technical and physical terms is huge!  Generally speaking we give one-year deals to the lads who have just graduated from the youth team and expect them to develop physically, technically and mentally to the level of an established professional. If they're to remain at the club not only are they required to match the level of the existing professionals but to surpass them.  For a side like ours without a reserve team and incredibly limited first team opportunities, that's virtually impossible.

Once we ditch this idea that every player reaches their potential at 17 or 18 then we'll see higher retention of youth players.  Southwell is a classic example of a lad who could have done with another year or so to find his feet as a young professional.

Southwell looks to have benefited from having to drop down a level and is fortunate that he didn't have to drop too far where he can rebuild his career and more importantly continue his education.  He's in a small minority though as most lads released after a brief spell as a young pro lose heart and drift down the footballing ladder.  Some where never good enough, some we'll never know.

This new TV money does need to filter down into grass roots more.  We need more coaches, we need better facilities, we need to make coaching more attractive and accessible.  But we also need to develop a structure where young players aren't judged until their much older.

Put that way we ought to ditch the youth set up. We haven't a reserve team to develop the older ones with potential. May as well go the whole hog and save more money and avoid giving false hopes to lads.

Quoted from FishOutOfWater

I think the difference between Southwell ( and Cook too ) is that Hurst would have played them a lot more (or at least thought about playing them more) if they had scored more when in the team

I'm not saying that they didn't score regularly but to secure their place in the team they would have had to have been on fire and therefore basically undroppable (if that's a word)

Contrast this with Lenny for example (and this is not a criticism of him at all) who is chosen more or less week in week out because he has other attributes

I think we had a discussion on here once about what constitutes a striker and what constitutes a goal scorer...Lenny fits the bill as a striker because he's there as a target man, holds up play and chips in with goals.

Southwell and Cook (and maybe also Hannah) are more goalscorers and Hurst's approach (or so it seems to me) is that they are a luxury unless they are more than prolific

It's all about style and which players suit the manager's tactics...a situation which we as fans can have opinions about but can't really affect

The bottom line is two ex forwards have moved on and so have we...it Southwell and Cook get back in to the Conference Prem (or whatever it'll be called next season) and find their feet again at this level, then good luck to them.

I'm just hoping we get up via the playoffs and arguments about their respective merits can be put to bed once and for all because by then, we should then be looking forward as a league club and not back over our shoulders at our time out of the league

Southwell had a good record when given the chance.

I think Hurst likes his strikers to defend,thats why the likes of Neilson and Palmer do not fit into his style of play .

Quoted from KingstonMariner

Southwell had a good record when given the chance.

Not really, he scored 5 but three were against Coalville Town who are three leagues below Town. Doesn't exactly prove he was up to it at our level at that point.

Quoted from mariner91

Not really, he scored 5 but three were against Coalville Town who are three leagues below Town. Doesn't exactly prove he was up to it at our level at that point.

Jesus Christ!. He took his chance when he was given it. It was more than our other strikers managed. Who were the other two against? Should they be chalked off too?

Your statement is a bit like saying our win against Colville didn't count because they are excrement. We shouldn't have progressed to the next round. You can only beat what's put in front of you.

Or how about Liam Hearn when he was banging them in in the Conference North. Nope. Lower division. Clearly not good enough for us.

Look DS has developed into a very useful striker for Boston and has in fact cocked a snoot to all of us, Good luck to him maybe he will come back one day who knows

Quoted from KingstonMariner

Jesus Christ!. He took his chance when he was given it. It was more than our other strikers managed. Who were the other two against? Should they be chalked off too?

Your statement is a bit like saying our win against Colville didn't count because they are excrement. We shouldn't have progressed to the next round. You can only beat what's put in front of you.

Or how about Liam Hearn when he was banging them in in the Conference North. Nope. Lower division. Clearly not good enough for us.

Yes you can only beat what's in front of you but if someone uses stats that aren't in context then it's misleading. He took his chance against a team three leagues lower, more than half his goals came in that game, suggesting that he didn't take his chances any other time really or at least very rarely. Three leagues at this level is a huge difference, that's the same level Brigg Town play. It proves precisely nothing for a player at this level to be able to score against those sort of teams.

Since then, he's really proving himself the level below and would certainly deserve a shot at the conference again. And fair play to the lad, he's obviously worked hard and kept improving when people with less character would have given up. However, I think leaving was probably best for him and for Town. We couldn't afford to wait for him to improve and he wouldn't have got the chances to improve if he'd been here. He didn't show enough to be kept on and you only have to search back a year on this message board to see that 95% of people didn't think he should have been kept on. People are using his success at Boston to have a go at PH but that is using hindsight which is unfair.

I always thought he was intelligent and showed some promise, I would have liked to see us keep him but as others have said without a reserve team and unlikely to be first choice he may not have made the same development.

He has clearly benefitted from a full season of first team football and trying to sign him over the summer wouldn't be a bad plan for me.

I certainly don't blame PH for letting him go, on a tight budget tough decisions have to be made and I think he was quite complimentary about him when he spoke about releasing in the GET, I got the impression he was reluctantly released.

Fair play to Dayle though who clearly hasn't sulked after getting released and has kicked on.

Quoted from Garth

Look DS has developed into a very useful striker for Boston and has in fact cocked a snoot to all of us, Good luck to him maybe he will come back one day who knows

I agree, I always thought there was something missing from his game as he did miss quite a few easier chances, but fair does to the lad, I hope he goes on to better things.

He had a bit of pace especially over 5-10yards and this might be helpful if he is playing against slower defenders in the league below. He has also physically stronger when he left. Quite a few of his goals have come from pens, but eh good luck to him, I hope he continues to do well.

It is very difficult for the manager to decide who to release and when. Some decisions will envitably be wrong, with hindsight.

We let Danny North go.  We also got some money for Jack Barlow, who was known to have character issues.  Some you win, some you lose.  We are where we are.

Without releasing players, there is no money for new blood.  A new players could be twice as good as the released player, whose strengths and eweaknesses are known to us.

Man United, a club without a tight budget, let Paul Pogba go as they did not rate him.   They are now rumoured to be trying to buy him back for over £50M!   Other top clubs are also said to be after him.

If we didn't have Hannah on the books (and at a much higher wage, undoubtedly), I'd imagine we'd have kept Southwell on for another year. Not really the room for two scamperers in our style of play.

He's done well at Boston for one season now so he's set himself a target for the future. Good on him. If they fail to win promotion, it will be interesting to see if he is tempted away from Boston next season by a Conference Premier club.

Quoted from TownSNAFU5

It is very difficult for the manager to decide who to release and when. Some decisions will envitably be wrong, with hindsight.

We let Danny North go.  We also got some money for Jack Barlow, who was known to have character issues.  Some you win, some you lose.  We are where we are.

Without releasing players, there is no money for new blood.  A new players could be twice as good as the released player, whose strengths and eweaknesses are known to us.

Man United, a club without a tight budget, let Paul Pogba go as they did not rate him.   They are now rumoured to be trying to buy him back for over £50M!   Other top clubs are also said to be after him.

Funny how some young forwards come along and flourish and others just fall by the wayside...I bet Danny North had he stayed with us would have done well at this level because when on form he knew where the back of the net was when he played for us

Another one who we released (and I don't know where he ended up) was Andy Taylor - his stats on Soccerbase look reasonable enough but something must have been lacking in his game

http://www.soccerbase.com/players/player.sd?player_id=43077

I remember Buckley lambasting him post match after we had trounced Barnet...Taylor scored in the game but he missed several other chances as I recall it. Maybe he just couldn't deal with criticism?

Anyway Dayle Southwell has got something in his character if he's had his confidence knocked along the way...remember how he once stormed off after being subbed 20 or so minutes in?

A little bit of growing up since has probably taken place and his maturity both physically and mentally as he gets older, stronger and wiser seems to be doing the trick. Good luck to him I say!

Taylor and to an extent North always looked better with Gary Jones alongside them. I think it was intentional from Alan Buckley to pair Jones with the younger lads in the hope he would pass on his know-how of the game.

Something we've lacked over recent years, in terms of both experience and stability, is players who have been able to pass on their skills. I'm not saying this is why we've a low success rate with youth team graduates but I think there's a place for experienced professionals bringing younger lads on, a passing of the torch if you like.

Quoted from TownSNAFU5

It is very difficult for the manager to decide who to release and when. Some decisions will envitably be wrong, with hindsight.

We let Danny North go.  We also got some money for Jack Barlow, who was known to have character issues.  Some you win, some you lose.  We are where we are.

Without releasing players, there is no money for new blood.  A new players could be twice as good as the released player, whose strengths and eweaknesses are known to us.

Man United, a club without a tight budget, let Paul Pogba go as they did not rate him.   They are now rumoured to be trying to buy him back for over £50M!   Other top clubs are also said to be after him.

Pogba refused a contract offer and believed he was worth more. Fair play, he's proved United wrong, I guess Dayle has done similar albeit at an entirely different level.

Quoted from MuddyWaters

Pogba refused a contract offer and believed he was worth more. Fair play, he's proved United wrong, I guess Dayle has done similar albeit at an entirely different level.

I read somewhere that Pogba decided to leave after Fergie started Rafael (a terrible full back) in centre midfield ahead of Pogba in a league cup game. Fair enough really, I'd be upset if Rafael started ahead of me and I'm shite.

Quoted from mariner91

I read somewhere that Pogba decided to leave after Fergie started Rafael (a terrible full back) in centre midfield ahead of Pogba in a league cup game. Fair enough really, I'd be upset if Rafael started ahead of me and I'm shite.

All about opinions isn't it. I'd have Rafael ahead of Parslow at right back or centre midfield!

Quoted from diehardmariner

Taylor and to an extent North always looked better with Gary Jones alongside them. I think it was intentional from Alan Buckley to pair Jones with the younger lads in the hope he would pass on his know-how of the game.

Something we've lacked over recent years, in terms of both experience and stability, is players who have been able to pass on their skills. I'm not saying this is why we've a low success rate with youth team graduates but I think there's a place for experienced professionals bringing younger lads on, a passing of the torch if you like.

He's not exactly close to retirement yet, but Shaun Pearson fulfils this role imo. He seems to do a lot of work with the school of excellence players.

To be fair to Rafael, his brother is even shitter.

Quoted from Chrisblor

He's not exactly close to retirement yet, but Shaun Pearson fulfils this role imo. He seems to do a lot of work with the school of excellence players.

Shaun is co-coach to the Under15/16 combined age group

Pearson is what, 4 years a professional? Doesn't really strike me as ready to pass on his experience of the game just yet. In fact he's still learning the game. You never stop learning I suppose.

Not saying Shaun isn't going to be a good coach or mentor, just isn't what I was referring to really. I was thinking more along the lines of a seasoned pro nearing retirement and giving something back. Completely different era and circumstances but Jim Dobbin came back to Town in 1998 as reserve captain with the instruction to mentor the young fringe players.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Pearson is what, 4 years a professional? Doesn't really strike me as ready to pass on his experience of the game just yet. In fact he's still learning the game. You never stop learning I suppose.

I think the football side of mentoring is actually quite small. What he will be instilling is determination, work-rate and professionalism. He's worked outside of football as a semi-pro and worked very hard to progress to where he is. He has much more real-life experience than a lot of footballers who have come through academies. He seems the perfect role-model to me.

Don't disagree he's a good role model but, for me, he hasn't been in the game himself long enough to pass on his nous.

Just like how we can't afford to give young lads a fair crack at the professional game, we can't afford to employ someone in this role.

I don't agree, unless you think that age matters above anything else, a great deal of leaders and teachers start young in both the schools and forces.
It's about leading by example and with that comes respect

I'm not talking about a leader of men or a captain.  I'm talking about someone to pass on their vast experience from the game. Pearson simply doesn't have that experience from his own game to do that, yet.

I'm not denying he's a good leader, commands respect nor indeed will be become an excellent coach and mentor in the future.

I'm talking about players like Paul Futcher who had been there, seen it all and got the t-shirt.  Then towards the end of their career were able to help the next generation come through.  Whilst Futcher was here we saw Mark Lever and John McDermott become far more accomplished players plus Peter Handyside and Gary Croft emerge as young professionals.

Talking about the youngsters what happened to Jonny Rowan and Darren Mansaram?

Quoted from biggles9999

Pretty much yes you are living in the past.

It is very difficult for teams to keep their best local players these days especially at our level because of the ability of the big clubs to pick and choose who they want to sign and move into their huge sprawling youth systems.

You have named about 10/15 players in 50 years of history that have been developed by ourselves and proved good enough for either us long term or higher levels. That is always unlikely to be enough to build a contingent of local players, especially in the days of fans wanting quick fixes and short term contracts.

I could name a lot more players who have come through the youth system over the years. Pete was almost one of them!

It is not that difficult for a club to keep young players. We are doing it all the time. Two more have just been signed on one year contracts. Maybe we will wave goodbye to the likes of Winfarrah and Walker in a few weeks.

There are two problems for young players at Grimsby. Firstly they get little or no game time at a level that will bring them on unless they get loaned out and that is usually to a club below us. The second problem is the manager. He does not want to take any risk if he can avoid it. He knows a young player takes a while to settle. He knows it was unfair to judge Southwell and others on an odd match and a few minutes sub time. But there is a reason he won't ever take the risk of giving a young player a run in the first team. He is short term results oriented because his job depends on it. Therefore he would rather sign a Parslow than teach Walker how to be a right back and possibly lose games because of it.

If you want players to come through the youth set up you have to have a manager prepared to gamble and give kids a chance. We need a Tom Casey or a David O'Leary or Tim Sherwood type of guy. That would mean a lot more effort in scouting and youth players getting more reserve team time as well, so no signings that just clog up the bench.

You can't blame the manager though. At this club, every manager is a slave to promotion so he has to focus on what he thinks is the quickest way to do it.

It would help if we had a proper reserve side
Then the bench warmers, like bignot, paddy, Hannah and the first year pros and youth players etc would get regular games, then they would not be so stale and off the pace when they were called upon.

Quoted from mariner91

Yes you can only beat what's in front of you but if someone uses stats that aren't in context then it's misleading. He took his chance against a team three leagues lower, more than half his goals came in that game, suggesting that he didn't take his chances any other time really or at least very rarely. Three leagues at this level is a huge difference, that's the same level Brigg Town play. It proves precisely nothing for a player at this level to be able to score against those sort of teams.

It suggests nothing of the sort. The fact he could score against lower level opposition does not mean he could not score against opposition on the same level as us. That is illogical. Utterly illogical. If Southwell had failed against the likes of Coalville then you'd have the beginnings of a case against him. The lad didn't get much other time in the first team, whilst others had much more game time and dismally failed to get more than a few goals. And we haven't even got to the pound for pound argument.

The first teamers failed against the same lower level opposition. If anything that suggests that they weren't up to it whilst Southwell was because he didn't fail. On the basis of scoring against lower opposition, you cannot deduce that he would have failed against better opposition. It's simply nonsensical.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

It suggests nothing of the sort. The fact he could score against lower level opposition does not mean he could not score against opposition on the same level as us. That is illogical. Utterly illogical. If Southwell had failed against the likes of Coalville then you'd have the beginnings of a case against him. The lad didn't get much other time in the first team, whilst others had much more game time and dismally failed to get more than a few goals. And we haven't even got to the pound for pound argument.

The first teamers failed against the same lower level opposition. If anything that suggests that they weren't up to it whilst Southwell was because he didn't fail. On the basis of scoring against lower opposition, you cannot deduce that he would have failed against better opposition. It's simply nonsensical.

It's not a deduction at all and I fail to see how you can't grasp that, it's a fact that he didn't score many against the teams in our league. He scored 5 all season, more than half of them in that one game against a team many levels below. Therefore, over the course of the season he managed 2 goals against opposition in the same league as us which isn't exactly inspiring. That is not to say that if he'd been started more that he wouldn't have scored but you claimed he took his chances without putting it in to context, my point all along was that your claim of him "taking his chances" has to be taken with a pinch of salt as most of his goals were against really shite opposition. If you can't understand the concept that proving you can score against a team like Coalville doesn't prove you can consistently score against teams three leagues higher then God help us. The higher up the football pyramid a team is, the more difficult it is to score against them. You only have to look at Ross Hannah who scored nearly 50 in a season at that sort of level and isn't anywhere near replicating that for us. Hearn scored 30 odd goals for us at this level but would you suggest he could have mirrored that in the Championship? Of course you wouldn't. Or is that also being "utterly illogical"?

To score goals you have to be on the pitch in the first place.

When you spend the majority of the time outside the squad or on the bench..... and then you get 10-15 minutes at the end (usually because whoever you replace hasn't pulled up any trees) and everybody expects you to score. (anger3)

Did Southwell start the next game after his Coalville heroics?

Ask yourself this question. Given the chances that our strikers have missed in open play, would Southwell have done any better in finding the net? I think he would and it doesn't matter who those chances come against when you are in front of the goal with the ball at your feet. Another question is whether our strikers are capable of scoring the amount of goals Southwell has this season in the league below. The problem is maybe that Southwell doesn't bring the other parts of the game like LJL for instance, therefore it's down to the manager and what he wants from a striker. Boston obviously have a more attacking approach, judging by the amount of goals they score in games, especially at home.

I understand the reasons why he was let go but i think there was a case for persevering for another season. There were games at home this year that we failed to score in and Southwell may have just been the right player to come on and nick a goal as he is clearly turning into a poacher of goals.

Who'd be a manager?

Tintowner, don't try address such sense into the strikers debate! The majority of the Fishy fail to see that not playing a game makes it difficult to score in it. Which is why Cook, Hannah & Southwell have all had stick in previous seasons. Quite how you can expect a striker to perform when he's not playing is beyond me but the well informed critics on this board seem well placed to make that call.

Quoted from pontoonlew

Tintowner, don't try address such sense into the strikers debate! The majority of the Fishy fail to see that not playing a game makes it difficult to score in it. Which is why Cook, Hannah & Southwell have all had stick in previous seasons. Quite how you can expect a striker to perform when he's not playing is beyond me but the well informed critics on this board seem well placed to make that call.

I think everybody accepts that you have to be on the pitch to score goals. But what we also have to accept is that we have a coaching staff who see the players all week and in the main are likely to have a better understanding of the game and what they want the players to do. It isnt enough at our level and in our current playing style to have a player that simply hangs around waiting for his chance to come in a game - because our style isnt set for this free flowing play. Hurst/Doig have got this team generally playing a fairly attritional style of play which means that strikers have to get involved in the rest of the game.

Hannah certainly doesnt do enough in open play and even when he has played ive never really seen him look like scoring any sort of chance. Cook in his second season especially always looked overweight and knackered after 10 minutes - the one time I saw him play well was Huddersfield at home. Other than that he was pretty poor imo. Southwell may well have been the best of the 3 to me, but I still thought he was a little light and raw. As others have commented if Hannah's contract was up last summer we might have given Southwell another year.

At the end of the day Hurst isnt getting rid of players for any reason other than doing what he feels is right to get us promotion. Hes not telling any player to leave because he doesnt like them, he moves them on because he doesnt think theyre good enough for our aim of getting promoted.

The big thing that is noticeable on this board is how much better a player looks when theyre not in the team.

Quoted from biggles9999

The big thing that is noticeable on this board is how much better a player looks when theyre not in the team.

In general, yes, but some players even become world-beaters when they've left the club! ;)

There is the odd exception such as Disley who, earlier this season, was considered by some as past it and only useful as a sub to be played in the Trophy or when injuries struck. 9 goals and another good season later, this clearly isn't the case.

I'd have been happy enough if Southwell had stayed but does anybody seriously think he would have been more than a bit-part player if he had? With the injury problems we had at the start of the season, he perhaps might have taken his chance, but I'm not so sure as all of our attackers were out at points and we did go through a spell when few chances were created.

Southwell had some decent qualities but I do seem to remember he missed or failed to make the best of chances on the occasions when he did get into the team. Never seemed quite forceful enough for me when the opportunities came his way though when you consider his goalscoring record you do have to remember that he sometimes played a wider role as well. As I noted before, I think we'd probably have kept him on for another year if Hannah hadn't been on the books.

The other thing to consider was that Hurst seemed very confident of signing new strikers during the close season - the fact that he never managed to obviously wasn't part of his plan but it did seem that a heck of a lot of players turned us down.

Ultimately, I think the move away for Southwell could be the making of him even if it costs us in the longer-term.

Quoted from Meza

Talking about the youngsters what happened to Jonny Rowan and Darren Mansaram?

I think this sums up things quite well...

[YOUTUBE]nxHcx7FO8nI[/YOUTUBE]

Quoted from FishOutOfWater

I think this sums up things quite well...

[YOUTUBE]nxHcx7FO8nI[/YOUTUBE]

Quality tune along with Ghost Town lol

I don't think that Rowan and Mansaram were really good enough as their careers after they left us showed.

Can't have been easy for either of them as they were initially lauded as prospects when pretty young but ultimately good players usually succeed and I don't think either of them quite had what it takes.

Daryl Clare strikes me as a decent player but one who wasn't perhaps quite good enough to succeed in League football. He had an excellent record at Conference level, however, and I think he did well to maximise what he could do.

It's a shame Clare wasn't 10 years younger!

Mansaram was definitely a victim of too much too young.  Asking an 18-year-old to play as a lone striker in a struggling Championship side was ridiculous but reflective of the situation at the club at the time.

Rowan - probably never good enough.  He had a decent career at Boston as an attacking midfielder, I think was Conference North which was probably about his level.

Clare - I think he had something, more so than any of the other two.  Problem is he probably lacked the right attitude.

Quoted from pontoonlew

Tintowner, don't try address such sense into the strikers debate! The majority of the Fishy fail to see that not playing a game makes it difficult to score in it. Which is why Cook, Hannah & Southwell have all had stick in previous seasons. Quite how you can expect a striker to perform when he's not playing is beyond me but the well informed critics on this board seem well placed to make that call.

It is rather amusing that you go on like this for players who have left the club and slate others for suggesting they may not have been up to it. Yet we have a player currently playing for us, who has scored as many goals this season as Cook managed in his first season (and brings far more to the table than Cook ever did) and you are forever moaning about him. In fact, you are arguably his biggest critic on here. Why is that? The other thing that amuses me is your defending of Makreth (justified in my opinion) as being top of the assists table for us whenever people criticise his contribution but LJL being leading goalscorer doesn't get any support from you when people criticise his contributions.

In fact, scratch the same amount of goals, LJL has more goals, and more league goals in particular.

Dayle Southwell had very limited time on the pitch as a striker. When he was involved it was often wide on the right.

I've said it before but my opinion was that he showed enough promise and potential in the right areas to merit keeping on.

Not only is he scoring more goals but he never had a 10 page thread when he was here. Why do we mythologize former players?

You can tell people are struggling to find summat meaningful to talk about whilst we all wait for something to happen when you see this thread has rambled on to 10 pages!

Quoted from Tommy

Dayle Southwell had very limited time on the pitch as a striker. When he was involved it was often wide on the right.

I've said it before but my opinion was that he showed enough promise and potential in the right areas to merit keeping on.

Maybe he lacked the right coaching here, nothing to do with their league position IMO, just wish him well as obviously Boston is a better fit for him our loss their gain sh1t happens

The Non-League paper this week shows Town links with 3 of the top 5 scorers in Conference North.

Omar Bogle was the league's top scorer for Solihull with 29 goals.  They finished mid-table.  They scored  68 goals league goals for the season. (Bogle got nearly half their goals).

Southwell got 28 goals for Boston.  They finished 3rd.  They scored 75 league goals.

Cook got 23 goals for Barrow, who finished top,  They scored 81 league goals.

......................................

On the above scoring stats and ratio's, Bogle looks the best bet, but he would not come to us.  The high number of goals scored by Southwell and Cook probably demonstrate that Conference North standard is well short of our division.   Difficult to reach any other firm conclusions and other factors impact as well for the individual strikers.

Quoted from TownSNAFU5

The Non-League paper this week shows Town links with 3 of the top 5 scorers in Conference North.

Omar Bogle was the league's top scorer for Solihull with 29 goals.  They finished mid-table.  They scored  68 goals league goals for the season. (Bogle got nearly half their goals).

Southwell got 28 goals for Boston.  They finished 3rd.  They scored 75 league goals.

Cook got 23 goals for Barrow, who finished top,  They scored 81 league goals.

......................................

On the above scoring stats and ratio's, Bogle looks the best bet, but he would not come to us.  The high number of goals scored by Southwell and Cook probably demonstrate that Conference North standard is well short of our division.   Difficult to reach any other firm conclusions and other factors impact as well for the individual strikers.

No!------------- Nobody here able to coach goal scorers in a defensive outfit

Speaking of Bogle, it seems he's hot property at the moment. MK Dons, Port Vale, Watford, Milwall and Sheffield Wednesday all linked with moves for him. He may have been the title winning signing for us.... what might have been.

Quoted from Tommy

Dayle Southwell had very limited time on the pitch as a striker. When he was involved it was often wide on the right.

I've said it before but my opinion was that he showed enough promise and potential in the right areas to merit keeping on.

I'd have kept him too....reminded me quite a bit of a young Terry Donovan. (Sadly I'm old enough to remember the young TD :-/ )

Quoted from Youngy

what might have been...

...if he'd wanted to sign for us!

You're probably correct that Bogle could have made the difference. LJL has been able to score 16 in the Conference so another striker playing alongside him who bagged over 20 goals could certainly have earned the extra points. Just a pity Pittman isn't likely to be consistently fit because he ought to be a 20 goal striker if he was playing week-in, week-out. As it stands, 10 goals from 20 starts isn't bad.

The joy and beauty of football, and the many disappointments, is often more about chance and luck than business logic.

Never mind Bogle, if we could have had Liam Hearn this season, fully fit, we would all be on the beach by now.  If only..........................

Where would Man United have been without than chance opportunity to buy their talisman Eric Cantona, and for only £1M?

Why do successful, hard-headed businessmen, in a competive world,  often get the basics so wrong in football?

Had we signed Bogle we may have not got another player who's played such a vital role, Clay for example.

Within our attack I don't believe we've got a single player who's capable of scoring 25-30 goals in a season.  Be that through ability or injuries/fitness.

But I think Hurst's plan is more about spreading the goals about rather than relying on one man.  Barnet gambled and whilst it worked with Akinde, had he picked up a lengthy injury in October they would have struggled badly.

Whilst we've gone through bad patches we've never struggled at any point and that's with injuries and lack of form for key men.

Two seasons at this level when we did have all our eggs in one basket with a striker (Connell and Hearn) we finished mid-table.  Both strikers had patches where they didn't score, nor did the team overall.