Now Oldham have backed out of the deal to sign him.

Getting slightly ridiculous wouldn't you agree

Yes. Not sure where it will all end. Do these people want him banned from EVERY club? In the UK, or abroad too?
Banned just from football, or ANY sport? Or just banned from anything, everything, forever.

He should be allowed back into society because he's served his time but just not as a footballer, would a policeman be allowed back in the police force if he had broke the law in such a anus way? And yes it's getting boring but if the court of appeal decides differently this will go on for years :-/

Not sure if he can play abroad yet as he's only just been released

Quoted from WOZOFGRIMSBY

Not sure if he can play abroad yet as he's only just been released

He cant, he's on licence for the next 2 years so cant leave the country.

Ffs

there's a huge amount that could be said on this issue. personally I do not believe that, as a convicted rapist, Evans should be allowed to play football professionally again and would not want him at GTFC EVEN if it guaranteed promotion. I think Football 365 summed it up perfectly:

"Employing Evans sends a deeply flawed message. It declares that as long as you are gifted you are untouchable, that being good at football gives you an automatic right to be a footballer. And that we care more about our team winning a match than anything else."

Quoted from sutton mariner

Ffs

Have you changed your Username?

Quoted from punk mariner

there's a huge amount that could be said on this issue. personally I do not believe that, as a convicted rapist, Evans should be allowed to play football professionally again and would not want him at GTFC EVEN if it guaranteed promotion. I think Football 365 summed it up perfectly:

"Employing Evans sends a deeply flawed message. It declares that as long as you are gifted you are untouchable, that being good at football gives you an automatic right to be a footballer. And that we care more about our team winning a match than anything else."

Sorry but if it guaranteed promotion i would have him here.

Sign him up!  He could be a new Lee Hughes, feeding off the abuse he gets to perform better.  Hughes' crime was much worse yet he's still been able come back and complete a pretty successful career.  It personally doesn't bother me if Evans was a convicted rapist or not, I don't know him personally and neither am I ever going to.  I don't want to.  But if he'd be willing to put in a shift for the club then why should we care about what goes on in his life outside of football.  There is already a long-established justice system to take of criminals, it shouldn't be anybody else's business to take of it.

The Fishy would go into meltdown if we even expressed an interest  :)
Personally I'd love to see him join us but there's no chance.

Quoted from Doctor Sanchez

Sign him up!  He could be a new Lee Hughes, feeding off the abuse he gets to perform better.  Hughes' crime was much worse yet he's still been able come back and complete a pretty successful career.  It personally doesn't bother me if Evans was a convicted rapist or not, I don't know him personally and neither am I ever going to.  I don't want to.  But if he'd be willing to put in a shift for the club then why should we care about what goes on in his life outside of football.  There is already a long-established justice system to take of criminals, it shouldn't be anybody else's business to take of it.

I'm desperate to get out of this league but not at any price , that post is awful fella

Chosing "what's worse" between rape and murder isn't a discussion I'd want to see on here.....

He's making an announcement this afternoon - retirement?

Quoted from Biccys

Chosing "what's worse" between rape and murder isn't a discussion I'd want to see on here.....

I think the football authorities have maybe answered that anyway. Hughes was allowed to play on, Evans wasn't / isn't.
Far too many grey areas, and rules that are seemingly made up on the hoof.

Quoted from Doctor Sanchez

Sign him up!  He could be a new Lee Hughes, feeding off the abuse he gets to perform better.  Hughes' crime was much worse yet he's still been able come back and complete a pretty successful career.  It personally doesn't bother me if Evans was a convicted rapist or not, I don't know him personally and neither am I ever going to.  I don't want to.  But if he'd be willing to put in a shift for the club then why should we care about what goes on in his life outside of football.  There is already a long-established justice system to take of criminals, it shouldn't be anybody else's business to take of it.

No it wasn't. The consequences of the crime were worse but not the actual crime itself. Evans is a sex offender and if he was a bin man, you wouldn't want him living next door to you, never mind playing for your local team.

Town's decision not to pursue interest in him seems to have gone down well here

https://twitter.com/RadicalFeminist/status/553155532924940288

Quoted from punk mariner

there's a huge amount that could be said on this issue. personally I do not believe that, as a convicted rapist, Evans should be allowed to play football professionally again and would not want him at GTFC EVEN if it guaranteed promotion. I think Football 365 summed it up perfectly:

"Employing Evans sends a deeply flawed message. It declares that as long as you are gifted you are untouchable, that being good at football gives you an automatic right to be a footballer. And that we care more about our team winning a match than anything else."

Fact is: he has served his time for the crime! So I don`t see any good reasons why he shouldn`t be allowed to continue with his trade. We all have things we are good at - and those are the things that we are most likely to do to earn ourselves a living. In Norway he wouldn`t be allowed to work for the police, in the schools or help-centers for abused women. Otherwise - I see no problem with him working as a footballer. I guess he would regret it if he got an urge to try to rape a footballer in the shower.
The alternative is for people to have him go unemployed and be paid by the social services. Do you really prefer to pay for his living through your taxes?

I would like to change the quote a little - imagine that he was a plumber: "Employing Evans sends a deeply flawed message. It declares that as long as you are good with your hands you are untouchable, that being good at plumbing gives you an automatic right to be a plumber."

The only reason why this is a discussion at all is because he is a "famous person" - this would be no problem if he was a plumber. He didn`t get a life-sentence and society have punished him for what the justice system thought that he did. If people think that is unfair - you should lengthen the time that has to be served for that particular crime and not continue the punishment outside of the prison walls.

And that is exactly why Grimsby Town should employ him if he wanted to come here!

Quoted from ginnywings

No it wasn't. The consequences of the crime were worse but not the actual crime itself. Evans is a sex offender and if he was a bin man, you wouldn't want him living next door to you, never mind playing for your local team.

Well I meant worse as in the size of the punishment that was handed out.  I'm still a believer in giving people a second chance in life if they've taken the punishment for their mistakes.    

People who would rather a football team they support get promoted at any cost, need to take a long hard look at themselves.

As a male, I cannot and wouldn't even try and speak on behalf of the female gender, but, like many people, I have female relatives. The issue of rape needs to be taken way more seriously than it is....any team taking him on is bad enough for me, but what kind of a message would it be projecting onto our younger, local males? I don't care if he's done his time or not, the thought of my sisters/nieces, etc, growing up in a town where a couple of thousand people celebrate a convicted rapist is one I do not wish to entertain. Ever.

Quoted from geir

Fact is: he has served his time for the crime! So I don`t see any good reasons why he shouldn`t be allowed to continue with his trade. We all have things we are good at - and those are the things that we are most likely to do to earn ourselves a living. In Norway he wouldn`t be allowed to work for the police, in the schools or help-centers for abused women. Otherwise - I see no problem with him working as a footballer. I guess he would regret it if he got an urge to try to rape a footballer in the shower.
The alternative is for people to have him go unemployed and be paid by the social services. Do you really prefer to pay for his living through your taxes?

I would like to change the quote a little - imagine that he was a plumber: "Employing Evans sends a deeply flawed message. It declares that as long as you are good with your hands you are untouchable, that being good at plumbing gives you an automatic right to be a plumber."

The only reason why this is a discussion at all is because he is a "famous person" - this would be no problem if he was a plumber. He didn`t get a life-sentence and society have punished him for what the justice system thought that he did. If people think that is unfair - you should lengthen the time that has to be served for that particular crime and not continue the punishment outside of the prison walls.

And that is exactly why Grimsby Town should employ him if he wanted to come here!

Plumbers aren't role models, football players are.

Quoted from sam gy

People who would rather a football team they support get promoted at any cost, need to take a long hard look at themselves.

As a male, I cannot and wouldn't even try and speak on behalf of the female gender, but, like many people, I have female relatives. The issue of rape needs to be taken way more seriously than it is....any team taking him on is bad enough for me, but what kind of a message would it be projecting onto our younger, local males? I don't care if he's done his time or not, the thought of my sisters/nieces, etc, growing up in a town where a couple of thousand people celebrate a convicted rapist is one I do not wish to entertain. Ever.

I guess the fact that he has been convicted sways opinion against him but given his association with Clayton McDonald who Town fans took to, especially after his winning goal against Scunny, I get why some here would be prepared to give him a "second chance" with us

Given that Terrell Forbes also represented the Mariners   -   http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4041953.stm - there's an argument that we as a club (both the management and the fans) have very dubious morals sometimes when it suits

Opinions are certainly split on this one - any other jury and maybe Evans might have walked away as a free man and this matter might have been consigned to history but this one is going to be in the public domain for quite some time if Evans is seriously considering trying to get back in to his former profession

He is not a free man and has not served his sentence. He is out on license. He served 2.5 years of a 5 year prison sentence and as such will spend the next 2.5 years being closely monitored.

Whatever the rights and wrongs, the fact is he could still be in prison, so he isn't really being denied a right to work is he?

Interesting to hear that one of the reasons Oldham ended their interest was because of their staff receiving death threats!
Did those people think that sending death threats to children was taking the moral high ground?!!!  :-/

Quoted from sam gy

Plumbers aren't role models, football players are.

Yes - it may very well be so. As many famous people are for some. But to continue your reasoning will be difficult. What kind of crimes should role models be allowed to make? When is the crime so serious that you can`t be allowed to continue to work within your profession? Many young people have musicians as role models. Many musicians do illegal drugs and have been arrested for it. Should we burn their records and ban them from recording studios and music stores? Several role models within all trades have been arrested for drunk-driving - a possibly serious crime that could end with the death of innocent people. There are a whole lot of movies your kids can`t be allowed to see as they are full of law-breaking offenders. Should we tell them to pack it in for good? And so on, and so on.... why should the rules be different for footballers?

Just saying...

because RAPE is a serious crime and he only served half hi time which is an insult to the Girl he Raped ........................and lets face no one is hardly worried about her well being are they . The poor girl must be going through Hell !

We sometimes forget there are more important things in life than football, and morals should be one of them.

People guilty of crimes like this are generally suffering the consequences for the rest of their life. Just because a bloke has a bit of skill at kicking a bag of air doesn't mean he should be an exception to the rule.

Why should people live their life respecting women, and generally living law-abiding lifestyles to then pay this bloke a disproportionate wage and chant his name and how good he is.

If the bloke signed for us and slotted 3 past Barnet in the first ten minutes, I really wouldn't know what to make of it.

He's tarnished, if he is actually innocent he should focus on his appeal before trying to get back playing again.

Quoted from fleabag1970

because RAPE is a serious crime and he only served half hi time which is an insult to the Girl he Raped ........................and lets face no one is hardly worried about her well being are they . The poor girl must be going through Hell !

But that's a judicial issue. If the sentences handed out to rapists are not severe enough then it's a far bigger issue than Ched Evans. Our courts determined that 2.5 years in prison was an appropriate sentence for his crime. He didn't get away with it. He's been tried, convicted and punished already.

This role model argument is a complete red herring. How many 14 year old boys are thinking "Well if Ched Evans can return to lower league football several years after being convicted of rape then I think I will go out and rape someone"?

This is a difficult moral issue which clearly divides opinion and as such there is too much "baggage" linked with signing the guy and the hassle is not worth it. As a player he will be in the public eye and the press spotlight. Perhaps he should have thought about the effect on his career and the woman in question on that fateful night. As a former professional footballer recently told me. young footballers do not need to rape women to have a sexual relationship with someone. I hear the other side of the argument about doing the time, but he hasn't yet, he is only out of prison on licence having served half the time, he has shown no remorse either. He needs to adopt a low profile for at least another 2.5 years, which he should use to retrain in another career. Maybe he could serve society by doing something which might prevent other young men committing a similar offence.

Quoted from sam gy

t, like many people, I have female relatives.

This did make me smile ;D

Quoted from MeanwoodMariner

But that's a judicial issue. If the sentences handed out to rapists are not severe enough then it's a far bigger issue than Ched Evans. Our courts determined that 2.5 years in prison was an appropriate sentence for his crime. He didn't get away with it. He's been tried, convicted and punished already.

This role model argument is a complete red herring. How many 14 year old boys are thinking "Well if Ched Evans can return to lower league football several years after being convicted of rape then I think I will go out and rape someone"?

It's 5 years and is still an active sentence. He may be out of prison but his sentence is still being served. He could go back to prison at any time without a trial.

Quoted from BIGChris

This did make me smile ;D

Hehe!!

[quote=186]

. He didn't get away with it. He's been tried, convicted and punished already.



I never said he got away with it did I .............................. I just think he should have served the full 5 IMO ................... Also I was more concerned about his poor Victim who know one seems to give a toss about !

It's also worth noting that the reason he's shown no remorse is because he (rightly or wrongly) believes he did not do this - there is an investigation underway. II think he was incredibly stupid to think that having sex with someone who is _unable to say no_ was something acceptable.

So unlike Hughes who has been sickening with his displays and no showing of remorse, there is a logic to Evans's "lack of remorse" - how many of you would apologise for something you didn't think you did?

I'd wait and see until the results of the investigation and then either condemn him rightly or not.

Still Guilty

Fenty and co wont win on this one !

i personally would sign him, but it can work 2 ways.

Sign him, get promoted, 6 months down the line when its gone quiet, someone might spend money on him.

or we could sign him, Pearson, Mckeown, Magnay, Disley not like it and all demand to leave...

Whilst it looks like we wont sign him, i am not bothered either way.

do the crime, do the time, and he has

Quoted from sam gy

Plumbers aren't role models, football players are.

I don't get this argument, I really don't. I saw an article yesterday claiming that young men may be influenced by the actions of a footballer. Well I'm 23, so I guess you would class me as a young man. I can categorically state that I have never been influenced by how footballer's act away from a football pitch, even as a child. I would idolise them in terms of their ability and how they play and would sometimes try to copy that but away from the pitch I couldn't care less. I realise that I am only speaking for myself however, as far as I'm aware there have been no copycat drunken car accidents by Notts County, Oldham or FGR fans since Hughes has played for these teams. I also haven't heard of any Liverpool or Chelsea fans copying Glen Johnson's toilet seat stealing antics. I would be extremely surprised if Ched Evans playing for a particular team meant young people who liked him as a player suddenly believed that his crime is acceptable.

This isn't to take away from the fact that his actions were abhorrent, the actions of people claiming to support him are criminal and disgusting as well. However, he has served the time deemed appropriate for his actions. Whether you agree that the length of time served is appropriate (personally I think rape should get much longer sentences) is immaterial; the law of the land has stated that he has now paid for his crimes. The argument about whether he'd be allowed to be a policeman is also irrelevant. To be a policeman you need a DBS check which he obviously wouldn't pass. And I agree with this, of course there are certain professions that you wouldn't let a convicted rapist anywhere near and rightly so. However, a professional footballer is not one of these. So what we have now is effectively mob rule. The laws of the land do not prohibit him from becoming a footballer again but the baying masses who do not want him to have a job that they believe is desirable are preventing him from doing so. This goes against the justice system employed in this country which follows the order of crime, punishment, rehabilitation. If he is not rehabilitated he is no good to anyone. At least if he plays football again, he will pay taxes and be working, he will contribute taxes instead of taking away benefits. People who are rehabilitated back into society are also less likely to re-offend.

The argument that I saw suggesting that allowing him to play again suggests being talented makes you "untouchable" is also a non starter. He isn't untouchable as he has been punished. He hasn't helped himself with his perceived arrogance since his release which I imagine has made his plight more difficult. Even his apology this afternoon, which seems a little contrived given the circumstances and timing, will not make him a likeable figure. He should have apologised for the ordeal his actions have caused (and hopefully meant it) immediately on release but that ship has sailed. But you don't have to like him and personal opinions on the man himself shouldn't obscure the public's attitude to allowing him to return to his previous profession and being rehabilitated.

Perfectly put Mariner91

Quoted from Jarmo.Is.God

or we could sign him, Pearson, Mckeown, Magnay, Disley not like it and all demand to leave...

Whilst it looks like we wont sign him, i am not bothered either way.

Not to mention the sponsors.  Do you reckon Youngs would stick around and risk a feminist group organising a boycott Youngs products campaign. We wouldn't see them for dust.

It's definite no from me.

Quoted from mariner91

I don't get this argument, I really don't. I saw an article yesterday claiming that young men may be influenced by the actions of a footballer. Well I'm 23, so I guess you would class me as a young man. I can categorically state that I have never been influenced by how footballer's act away from a football pitch, even as a child. I would idolise them in terms of their ability and how they play and would sometimes try to copy that but away from the pitch I couldn't care less. I realise that I am only speaking for myself however, as far as I'm aware there have been no copycat drunken car accidents by Notts County, Oldham or FGR fans since Hughes has played for these teams. I also haven't heard of any Liverpool or Chelsea fans copying Glen Johnson's toilet seat stealing antics. I would be extremely surprised if Ched Evans playing for a particular team meant young people who liked him as a player suddenly believed that his crime is acceptable.

This isn't to take away from the fact that his actions were abhorrent, the actions of people claiming to support him are criminal and disgusting as well. However, he has served the time deemed appropriate for his actions. Whether you agree that the length of time served is appropriate (personally I think rape should get much longer sentences) is immaterial; the law of the land has stated that he has now paid for his crimes. The argument about whether he'd be allowed to be a policeman is also irrelevant. To be a policeman you need a DBS check which he obviously wouldn't pass. And I agree with this, of course there are certain professions that you wouldn't let a convicted rapist anywhere near and rightly so. However, a professional footballer is not one of these. So what we have now is effectively mob rule. The laws of the land do not prohibit him from becoming a footballer again but the baying masses who do not want him to have a job that they believe is desirable are preventing him from doing so. This goes against the justice system employed in this country which follows the order of crime, punishment, rehabilitation. If he is not rehabilitated he is no good to anyone. At least if he plays football again, he will pay taxes and be working, he will contribute taxes instead of taking away benefits. People who are rehabilitated back into society are also less likely to re-offend.

The argument that I saw suggesting that allowing him to play again suggests being talented makes you "untouchable" is also a non starter. He isn't untouchable as he has been punished. He hasn't helped himself with his perceived arrogance since his release which I imagine has made his plight more difficult. Even his apology this afternoon, which seems a little contrived given the circumstances and timing, will not make him a likeable figure. He should have apologised for the ordeal his actions have caused (and hopefully meant it) immediately on release but that ship has sailed. But you don't have to like him and personal opinions on the man himself shouldn't obscure the public's attitude to allowing him to return to his previous profession and being rehabilitated.

Good Post,

but on the Hughes and Johnson, what about Suarez ?

Suarez has bitten 3? people during a footballing match, he has racially abused a player during a match, yet it is acceptable for him to sign for the biggest club in the world ?

whilst i understand what Suarez did isn't as bad as Evans, Suarez did his live on television on the pitch in front of thousands of kids !!!!

Quoted from oldun

This is a difficult moral issue which clearly divides opinion and as such there is too much "baggage" linked with signing the guy and the hassle is not worth it. As a player he will be in the public eye and the press spotlight. Perhaps he should have thought about the effect on his career and the woman in question on that fateful night. As a former professional footballer recently told me. young footballers do not need to rape women to have a sexual relationship with someone. I hear the other side of the argument about doing the time, but he hasn't yet, he is only out of prison on licence having served half the time, he has shown no remorse either. He needs to adopt a low profile for at least another 2.5 years, which he should use to retrain in another career. Maybe he could serve society by doing something which might prevent other young men committing a similar offence.

Exactly, which backs up his not guilty claim, which is why he has not apologised, therefore showing no remorse.
His victim apparently wasn't capable of saying yes or no which doesn't excuse what he did, but is why he claims to be not guilty.

To be fair I have some sympathy for Ched on this issue.  

For a start the rape is hotly disputed, it was a druken night out with 2 footballer acting very cocky and being generally horrible people no doubt, but both Clayton MacDonald and Ched Evans believe she gave her consent.  I have had sex with drunk girls before and I can imagine myself being horrified if the next day they claimed they couldn't remember anything about our encouter and I was accused of rape.  

The fact that Clayton MacDonald was cleared of raping the same girl on the same night but Ched Evans was found guilty also seems very frustrating.  

Now he is hounded out of potential football roles because of something he seems to honestly believe he is innocent of.  That must be so frustrating.

However if we take the presumption of his guilt then I still feel he has a right to move on.  The fact that your career is glamorous is irrelevant.  Sean Penn is a foul mouthed wife-beating a******* of the highest order and yet he still works as an actor and I still watch him as I think he is an amazing actor if a horrendous human being.

If Ched Evans has committed that rape he has been punished by the state and if he is to be rehabilitated he needs to be allowed to resume a normal life, that is part of the reason for the early release scheme where Ched Evans has been released early, so he can start to work and reintroduce himself into society before he is fully free again.  I find the hounding of him frustrating as it is people who are trying to assert they have a moral high ground because they do not approve of rape as if people who feel that crimes need to be forgiven are saying rape is not a big deal  That is clearly rubbish, we all think rape is a horrendous crime but punishing him forever is also wrong and we need to move on from this and hope that his behaviour in the future is up to a higher standard, if not then we can condem him again but to consistently condem him now is not justice.

The wiki thing mentioning Town has been withdrawn plus previous post ( probably complaint from club or legal issues ).

He would fire us out of this league. Served his time for a case full of questionable evidence

Quoted from promotion plaice

The wiki thing mentioning Town has been withdrawn plus previous post ( probably complaint from club or legal issues ).

Good I don't want  our club associated with a convicted rapist  in any shape or form

Quoted from Jarmo.Is.God

Good Post,

but on the Hughes and Johnson, what about Suarez ?

Suarez has bitten 3? people during a footballing match, he has racially abused a player during a match, yet it is acceptable for him to sign for the biggest club in the world ?

whilst i understand what Suarez did isn't as bad as Evans, Suarez did his live on television on the pitch in front of thousands of kids !!!!

Rooney told the entire TV audience to "F**k off", and regularly kicks opponents for taking the ball off him, he got the England captaincy. Ferdinand used a racist term on a fellow player and was not only let off but given a TV pundits job.
The list goes on, but these players are money-earning objects to those in charge, nothing more, and the  'role model' idea has long since gone down the pan.

Quoted from sutton mariner

He would fire us out of this league. Served his time for a case full of questionable evidence

I am not sure he could. He has not played for 3 years or so and none of us know his fitness levels. Also after all he has been through is his head right and how would he cope with the constant abuse he would undoubtedly get?

Quoted from MrsMariner

Exactly, which backs up his not guilty claim, which is why he has not apologised, therefore showing no remorse.
His victim apparently wasn't capable of saying yes or no which doesn't excuse what he did, but is why he claims to be not guilty.

Oh! that's ok then.

I presume she was also incapable of saying yes or no to him getting someone to film the act.

Quoted from ginnywings

Oh! that's ok then.

I presume she was also incapable of saying yes or no to him getting someone to film the act.

I wasn't taking any sides I did add that it didn't excuse what he had done

Well said 91, the role model thing is a nonsense. I didn't spend the 70s trying to be Peter Storey!

Quoted from ginnywings

Oh! that's ok then.

I presume she was also incapable of saying yes or no to him getting someone to film the act.

I find it really worrying how many people seem to think that even if he did it it wasn't particularly serious (not as bad as Hughes keeps being trotted out). He is a convicted rapist whatever people think and the whole 'asking for it' line of argument is just revolting. As has been pointed out, he hasn't served his sentence yet either.

I'll pose one for those who think we should sign him. We sign him, he scores the winner in the play off final at Wembley and you go crazy, singing his name etc Would that not make you feel uncomfortable? What about those with daughters? If your daughter asked 'Why do you like that rapist so much?' - what would you tell her?

Quoted from MrsMariner

I wasn't taking any sides I did add that it didn't excuse what he had done

Fair do's. Perhaps a little unfair of me not to highlight the whole sentence.

Touchy subject.

Quoted from Rodley Mariner

I find it really worrying how many people seem to think that even if he did it it wasn't particularly serious (not as bad as Hughes keeps being trotted out). He is a convicted rapist whatever people think and the whole 'asking for it' line of argument is just revolting. As has been pointed out, he hasn't served his sentence yet either.

I'll pose one for those who think we should sign him. We sign him, he scores the winner in the play off final at Wembley and you go crazy, singing his name etc Would that not make you feel uncomfortable? What about those with daughters? If your daughter asked 'Why do you like that rapist so much?' - what would you tell her?

I've not seen the asking for it argument recently on here though I have seen it once or twice and it is a horrible way to look at things.

Personally I don't think we should sign him because of all the media hype and this club/town doesn't need any more negative attention at the minute. But what I would say is you can cheer a goal scored by a convicted criminal without liking the player. It's his achievement that you like, not the person he is. Liam Hearn served time for assault yet I still cheered every time he scored (and I did like him because he obviously showed remorse and had made the most of his talent following his prison stretch and seemed a decent, honest guy but that's besides the point). That doesn't mean I think it was okay for him to assault his victim just because I cheered the goals he scored.

Quoted from mariner91

I've not seen the asking for it argument recently on here though I have seen it once or twice and it is a horrible way to look at things.

Personally I don't think we should sign him because of all the media hype and this club/town doesn't need any more negative attention at the minute. But what I would say is you can cheer a goal scored by a convicted criminal without liking the player. It's his achievement that you like, not the person he is. Liam Hearn served time for assault yet I still cheered every time he scored (and I did like him because he obviously showed remorse and had made the most of his talent following his prison stretch and seemed a decent, honest guy but that's besides the point). That doesn't mean I think it was okay for him to assault his victim just because I cheered the goals he scored.

The difference between this situation and Liam Hearn was that most generally agreed they would've reacted in the same way if thy were in Hearn's position.

Almost as if it was morally right, if legally wrong. Ched Evans massively falls down on both counts....

Quoted from biggles9999

The difference between this situation and Liam Hearn was that most generally agreed they would've reacted in the same way if thy were in Hearn's position.

Almost as if it was morally right, if legally wrong. Ched Evans massively falls down on both counts....

I'm not disputing that but it is still illegal to assault someone. Neilson assaulted a taxi driver which I'm sure most of us wouldn't do yet we still cheer every goal he scores.

Personally I can't see Ched Evans getting a job anywhere in the UK as a footballer or in a shop/office unless his appeal is successful. This means he will most probably sit on his backside doing nothing and claim JSA (that's if he can). Then all those people who signed the petitions to stop him returning to football will then start saying that why is he sat there doing nothing on etc while claiming benefits.

And............relax
[IMG]http://i57.tinypic.com/fwjd5i.jpg[/IMG]

One point I would make (which is irrelevant to whether he is or isn't innocent) is that he's not played for 3 years, so it would presumably take him forever to get properly match-fit as well?

Quoted from Tom13

One point I would make (which is irrelevant to whether he is or isn't innocent) is that he's not played for 3 years, so it would presumably take him forever to get properly match-fit as well?

Nah, there's that many footballers in prison, the inter prison football league is a better standard than the Conference.  ;) ;D

I see that Steve Bruce has added his two penn'orth on this now...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30742947

Wonder whether Hullberside will be following this up at all or because it concerns the Tigers, they'll let sleeping dogs lie...

Quoted from ginnywings

Nah, there's that many footballers in prison, the inter prison football league is a better standard than the Conference.  ;) ;D

;D ;D ;D

Quoted from biggles9999

The difference between this situation and Liam Hearn was that most generally agreed they would've reacted in the same way if thy were in Hearn's position.

Almost as if it was morally right, if legally wrong. Ched Evans massively falls down on both counts....

Pardon my ignorance . What did Hearn do ? Link?


UTM

And Clayton Macdonald did exactly the same as Ched Evans but got away with it and we all cheered his goals didn't we

Quoted from highcliff mariner

Pardon my ignorance . What did Hearn do ? Link?


UTM

Hearn assaulted someone who was mocking the cousin of Hearn's friend who has Downs Syndrome.

http://www.hucknalldispatch.co.uk/sport/local-sport/my-own-goal-that-led-to-prison-by-ace-striker-1-674977

Quoted from MrsMariner

And Clayton Macdonald did exactly the same as Ched Evans but got away with it and we all cheered his goals didn't we

The law says that is factually incorrect

Quoted from FishOutOfWater

I see that Steve Bruce has added his two penn'orth on this now...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30742947

Wonder whether Hullberside will be following this up at all or because it concerns the Tigers, they'll let sleeping dogs lie...

If there is one man in the UK who knows the intricacies of the British criminal justice system and employment law it is surely ex footballer and fat dinner lady Steve Bruce.

Quoted from psgmariner

If there is one man in the UK who knows the intricacies of the British criminal justice system and employment law it is surely ex footballer and fat dinner lady Steve Bruce.

Sign him then Steve sign him

Quoted from MrsMariner

And Clayton Macdonald did exactly the same as Ched Evans but got away with it and we all cheered his goals didn't we

FFS no, Clayton Macdonald did not do exactly the same as Ched Evans. He met the girl two hours earlier and the court ruled he may have reasonably believed the girl consented to sexual activity with him considering the circumstances in which they met and traveled to the hotel together. This explains why Clayton Macdonald wasn't found guilty of rape. Ched Evans sneaked into the hotel and started carrying out sexual activities with a girl who was too drunk to consent while his friends covertly filmed everything through the window. This distinction is why Evans was found guilty of rape.

Clayton Macdonald was rather sordid, but didn't do anything unlawful. This is why he 'got away with it'. Ched Evans on the other hand thinks it's totally fine to sneak into a hotel and start having sex with someone who is in no fit state to consent. That is rape, morally reprehensible and why I want him nowhear near our club.

I'm frankly disgusted to see that at the time of this post, 240 complete idiots have signed a petition asking gtfc to sign him. I hope their mothers and sisters are happy with them.

Quoted from Rodley Mariner

I find it really worrying how many people seem to think that even if he did it it wasn't particularly serious (not as bad as Hughes keeps being trotted out). He is a convicted rapist whatever people think and the whole 'asking for it' line of argument is just revolting. As has been pointed out, he hasn't served his sentence yet either.

I'll pose one for those who think we should sign him. We sign him, he scores the winner in the play off final at Wembley and you go crazy, singing his name etc Would that not make you feel uncomfortable? What about those with daughters? If your daughter asked 'Why do you like that rapist so much?' - what would you tell her?

I see where you are coming from but if you are going to examine the moral fibre of every Town player there is a very long list of people who have done bad things and then gone on to play for us without any of this moral outrage.

We have had players with criminal convictions (most recently Gary Croft, Liam Hearn and Scott Neilson) and we have also had players involved in sickening episodes in which they have escaped guilty verdicts (Clayton McDonald and Terrel Forbes spring to mind). I know none of these lot were convicted of rape but all have a questionable past.

If you believe Ched should not be allowed another chance how come they were?

Quoted from punk mariner

"Employing Evans sends a deeply flawed message. It declares that as long as you are gifted you are untouchable, that being good at football gives you an automatic right to be a footballer. And that we care more about our team winning a match than anything else."

He didnt go to prison then? I must have dreamt that.

Quoted from Chrisblor

FFS no, Clayton Macdonald did not do exactly the same as Ched Evans. He met the girl two hours earlier and the court ruled he may have reasonably believed the girl consented to sexual activity with him considering the circumstances in which they met and traveled to the hotel together. This explains why Clayton Macdonald wasn't found guilty of rape. Ched Evans sneaked into the hotel and started carrying out sexual activities with a girl who was too drunk to consent while his friends covertly filmed everything through the window. This distinction is why Evans was found guilty of rape.

Clayton Macdonald was rather sordid, but didn't do anything unlawful. This is why he 'got away with it'. Ched Evans on the other hand thinks it's totally fine to sneak into a hotel and start having sex with someone who is in no fit state to consent. That is rape, morally reprehensible and why I want him nowhear near our club.

I'm frankly disgusted to see that at the time of this post, 240 complete idiots have signed a petition asking gtfc to sign him. I hope their mothers and sisters are happy with them.

There are a fair proportion of women signing the petition on the basis that 'he will fire us out of this league'.

It is interesting to see the level at which some people are willing to compromise their morals so easily.

Just forgetting about his conviction for the minute, what most people seem to be forgetting is that he hasn't played a competitive game in almost 3 years. A lot of people think he'll just walk back into the game and be the same player that he was before his conviction. I'm sure he's kept himself fit whilst he's been inside but having had no matchtime for so long is no doubt going to have a bearing on his performances and he'll probably be a shadow of the player he was for the first few months, whilst he gets himself match fit.

Quoted from Chrisblor

Ched Evans on the other hand thinks it's totally fine to sneak into a hotel and start having sex with someone who is in no fit state to consent. That is rape, morally reprehensible and why I want him nowhear near our club.

I'm frankly disgusted to see that at the time of this post, 240 complete idiots have signed a petition asking gtfc to sign him. I hope their mothers and sisters are happy with them.

Yes, it was a morally reprehensible and serious criminal act for which he has been tried, convicted and punished by law. He has various caveats attached to his current freedom but essentially the law says he is now allowed to work again. Perhaps those "idiots" believe in the principal of rehabilitation & second chances and the rule of law? That is emphatically NOT the same as condoning the crime.

Quoted from MeanwoodMariner

Yes, it was a morally reprehensible and serious criminal act for which he has been tried, convicted and punished by law. He has various caveats attached to his current freedom but essentially the law says he is now allowed to work again. Perhaps those "idiots" believe in the principal of rehabilitation & second chances and the rule of law? That is emphatically NOT the same as condoning the crime.

Spot on! I was going to comment that there seems to be an accusation that if you at all doubt how guilty Ched Evans is, or if he should be allowed back into football you are saying that it is ok to commit rape.  This is such a false dichotomy, I abhor rape as I am sure everyone discussing this topic does.  

I am not willing to sacrafice my morals for Grimsby to get out of this league.  However I am willing to forgive crimes and allow people who have made mistakes a chance to redeem themselves.  I reject the notion that I have no morals simply because I have a different moral viewpoint to someonelse.  (Btw I have not signed the petition and doubt I will but just think calling anyone that has immoral is very unfair)

Quoted from psgmariner

If there is one man in the UK who knows the intricacies of the British criminal justice system and employment law it is surely ex footballer and fat dinner lady Steve Bruce.

Finally on one of these threads somebody makes a point upon which we can all agree.

Quoted from Chrisblor

Ched Evans sneaked into the hotel and started carrying out sexual activities with a girl who was too drunk to consent while his friends covertly filmed everything through the window. This distinction is why Evans was found guilty of rape.

Maybe ask her why she asked him to "lick her out" then?

It's all there, I suggest everyone read it and then make their mind up whether he really is guilty or not >> [url=http://chedevans.com/key-and-undisputed-facts]http://chedevans.com/key-and-undisputed-facts[/url]

Quoted from psgmariner

I see where you are coming from but if you are going to examine the moral fibre of every Town player there is a very long list of people who have done bad things and then gone on to play for us without any of this moral outrage.

We have had players with criminal convictions (most recently Gary Croft, Liam Hearn and Scott Neilson) and we have also had players involved in sickening episodes in which they have escaped guilty verdicts (Clayton McDonald and Terrel Forbes spring to mind). I know none of these lot were convicted of rape but all have a questionable past.

If you believe Ched should not be allowed another chance how come they were?

I see where you are coming from too. It's a really complicated issue. McDonald and Forbes were found innocent so I don't think a comparison is fair. Re the others I guess it can only be how serious you consider the crime which is emotive and complex. It's why I've asked numerous times if those in the 'he's out, let him resume his career' camp would say the same if we signed a released paedophile. If no then it can only be that they consider one offence worse than the other. Only Mariner91 has ever replied to the point and did so very even-handedly.

I don't think he should never play football again but I'm pleased we won't sign him. I think committing rape should have a negative impact on the offenders life and I certainly struggle to understand those who seem so sympathetic to his plight. At the same time I find the mob rule distasteful and I understand that it probably is in societies best interests if offenders gain employment once able to. Complicated stuff but like I say I won't lose any sleep worrying about him. If I got imprisoned for rape I'm pretty confident I wouldn't stroll back into my old job at the same level and salary and I'm also pretty sure that quite rightly no one would care.

Looks like their is a petition for him to sign for Grimsby Town >> [url=https://www.change.org/p/ched-evans-let-him-play-for-grimsby-town-fc]https://www.change.org/p/ched-evans-let-him-play-for-grimsby-town-fc[/url]

Can someone please tell me what line of work he should now pursue?? People are saying he shouldn't be a pro due to being in the public eye but working in tesco is going to bring him the same level of attention - if not more.

if he doesn't find a way back into the game he will find it hard to work anywhere in the future.

There is a petition going round to sign ched Evans. Not sure when it started but is currently on 350 ish signatures.

Quoted from Nelly GTFC

Maybe ask her why she asked him to "lick her out" then?

It's all there, I suggest everyone read it and then make their mind up whether he really is guilty or not >> [url=http://chedevans.com/key-and-undisputed-facts]http://chedevans.com/key-and-undisputed-facts[/url]

How the Fck did anyone get charged with rape?

Quoted from Tinymariner

How the Fck did anyone get charged with rape?

I've looked at his site several times since I first became aware of his protestations of innocence and in isolation there does seem to be a weight of 'evidence' that leads you to question how could this have been what we would consider rape

The thing is though it's what evidence was presented by the prosecution in court that we don't have access to plus the way the judge directed the jury that has led to the verdict

If it were my son who had been convicted I would think you were a fool to get caught up in such a situation but it's the combination of reckless youth and alcohol that brought this about  and I might protest his innocence

If it were my daughter involved again I would think how foolish she had been to go back to the hotel given the state she was in and knowing that young men are on the prowl on nights out but no matter what I would be aggrieved that someone could take advantage of her and seemingly remorselessly want to move on regardless

It's a sorry state of affairs for all concerned but what's done is done - a potential one night stand that's  developed into a legal and moral dilemma

Anyway due process will now decide how things develop from here on but as things stand the Evans camp can't do anything while there is such a strong campaign going to block his path at every turn

Well I feel he's innocent , if I had been on that jury none of this would have been going on now  ;)

It don't matter does it he's not coming here get over it. He's not the answer to our problems

So, a wealthy young man, who earned in the region of a million pounds a year and could afford the best legal representation, still gets convicted of rape by a jury, based on ALL the evidence and some still say he is innocent based on articles on a website paid for by his girlfriends wealthy father, which tells only one side of the story. No-one knows what was said or happened in that room except those that were there.

He may be innocent or not but that "evidence" shows nothing for me.

If there was sufficient real evidence that a miscarriage of justice had taken place, then he would be granted an appeal.

He wasn't...................................

Quoted from grimps

Well I feel he's innocent , if I had been on that jury none of this would have been going on now  ;)

You would have had to listen to all of the evidence if you'd been on the jury.

Quoted from ginnywings

So, a wealthy young man, who earned in the region of a million pounds a year and could afford the best legal representation, still gets convicted of rape by a jury, based on ALL the evidence and some still say he is innocent based on articles on a website paid for by his girlfriends wealthy father, which tells only one side of the story. No-one knows what was said or happened in that room except those that were there.

He may be innocent or not but that "evidence" shows nothing for me.

If there was sufficient real evidence that a miscarriage of justice had taken place, then he would be granted an appeal.

He wasn't...................................

EXACTLY.....

Quoted from topuphere666

Can someone please tell me what line of work he should now pursue?? People are saying he shouldn't be a pro due to being in the public eye but working in tesco is going to bring him the same level of attention - if not more.

if he doesn't find a way back into the game he will find it hard to work anywhere in the future.

Of the two million or so unemployed people in the country the one I'm concerned for the least is Ched Evans. I'm sure the bizzare relationship he has with his girlfriend's millionaire dad could provide him with a job.

Quoted from ginnywings

So, a wealthy young man, who earned in the region of a million pounds a year and could afford the best legal representation, still gets convicted of rape by a jury, based on ALL the evidence and some still say he is innocent based on articles on a website paid for by his girlfriends wealthy father, which tells only one side of the story. No-one knows what was said or happened in that room except those that were there.

He may be innocent or not but that "evidence" shows nothing for me.

If there was sufficient real evidence that a miscarriage of justice had taken place, then he would be granted an appeal.

He wasn't...................................

Sums it up for me.

Just been discussing this over a few pints this afternoon.

If mike Tyson was to make a come back, would everyone forget he was a rapist?

Quoted from ginnywings

So, a wealthy young man, who earned in the region of a million pounds a year and could afford the best legal representation, still gets convicted of rape by a jury, based on ALL the evidence and some still say he is innocent based on articles on a website paid for by his girlfriends wealthy father, which tells only one side of the story. No-one knows what was said or happened in that room except those that were there.

He may be innocent or not but that "evidence" shows nothing for me.

If there was sufficient real evidence that a miscarriage of justice had taken place, then he would be granted an appeal.

He wasn't...................................

Ginny i think there was a porter that let Evans into the hotel room  and was listening to what was going on and all he heard was sexual activity.   I read this document that my mate showed me off Facebook.  After reading it i can see why so many people are doubting conviction so many gray areas and so many pieces of evidence that was just simply ignored for some reason.  

Quoted from Meza

Ginny i think there was a porter that let Evans into the hotel room  and was listening to what was going on and all he heard was sexual activity.   I read this document that my mate showed me off Facebook.  After reading it i can see why so many people are doubting conviction so many gray areas and so many pieces of evidence that was just simply ignored for some reason.  

If she's passed out drunk or far too drunk to give consent she's not likely to be making a racket is she? Rape doesn't necessarily mean it has to be a struggle, I don't think some people realise this.

Quoted from Meza

Ginny i think there was a porter that let Evans into the hotel room  and was listening to what was going on and all he heard was sexual activity.   I read this document that my mate showed me off Facebook.  After reading it i can see why so many people are doubting conviction so many gray areas and so many pieces of evidence that was just simply ignored for some reason.  

Ah Facebook! Bedrock of the British legal system for........

Quoted from WOZOFGRIMSBY

Just been discussing this over a few pints this afternoon.

If mike Tyson was to make a come back, would everyone forget he was a rapist?

Well....I might not remind him to his face.....

Quoted from Meza

Ginny i think there was a porter that let Evans into the hotel room  and was listening to what was going on and all he heard was sexual activity.   I read this document that my mate showed me off Facebook.  After reading it i can see why so many people are doubting conviction so many gray areas and so many pieces of evidence that was just simply ignored for some reason.  

All of which would have been scrutinised at the trial, so it's nothing new.

Quoted from ginnywings

So, a wealthy young man, who earned in the region of a million pounds a year and could afford the best legal representation, still gets convicted of rape by a jury, based on ALL the evidence and some still say he is innocent based on articles on a website paid for by his girlfriends wealthy father, which tells only one side of the story. No-one knows what was said or happened in that room except those that were there.

He may be innocent or not but that "evidence" shows nothing for me.

If there was sufficient real evidence that a miscarriage of justice had taken place, then he would be granted an appeal.

He wasn't...................................

Yeah 12 people with no background of law or anything along them lines, how many women was on the jury? How many of the jury think that football players are "overpaid dickheads" like a lot of people do?

Not for me these jurys, heard so many stories of them getting it wrong and for me they've done it again here.. I've seen a video of this girl walking into the hotel and she certainly wasnt walking like she was suffering from alcohol inflicted memory loss..

The defence called for an expert to analyse how much alcohol she would of had in her system at 4am (when it took place) and this was his verdict:
The expert called by the defence calculated that the complainant's likely blood-alcohol level
at about 4am would have approximated to something like 2½ times the legal driving limit. He
gave evidence that she would have suffered from slurred speech and unsteadiness of gait, but he
would not have expected any memory loss. It was an essential part of his expert evidence that
there were significant doubts about the claim made by the complainant that she had suffered a
memory loss. In effect, it was suggested that her assertion was false.

This can also be backed up by another doctor who found out the following:
She was examined by a doctor and various samples were taken. As a result of an
examination of the samples, at that stage, notwithstanding the direct evidence that she had had a
good deal to drink the evening before, no alcohol was detected. That may have been the
consequence of its elimination over the course of time. Expert evidence sought to reconstruct
the amount of alcohol she had consumed at an earlier stage. The doctor found no injuries to the
complainant. The tests also revealed traces of cocaine and cannabis. The evidence was
consistent with cocaine and cannabis having been ingested some days earlier.

The girl also got found out for bragging about what she was gonna spend her money on "when she wins big" not something u do if you've just been raped surely?

Lets be honest she wasn't going back to the hotel to drink coffee was she, she was going back there for one thing and one thing only, she got it and then see her big chance to "win big"

Quoted from Neilo83

Yeah 12 people with no background of law or anything along them lines, how many women was on the jury? How many of the jury think that football players are "overpaid dickheads" like a lot of people do?

Not for me these jurys, heard so many stories of them getting it wrong and for me they've done it again here.. I've seen a video of this girl walking into the hotel and she certainly wasnt walking like she was suffering from alcohol inflicted memory loss..

The defence called for an expert to analyse how much alcohol she would of had in her system at 4am (when it took place) and this was his verdict:
The expert called by the defence calculated that the complainant's likely blood-alcohol level
at about 4am would have approximated to something like 2½ times the legal driving limit. He
gave evidence that she would have suffered from slurred speech and unsteadiness of gait, but he
would not have expected any memory loss. It was an essential part of his expert evidence that
there were significant doubts about the claim made by the complainant that she had suffered a
memory loss. In effect, it was suggested that her assertion was false.

This can also be backed up by another doctor who found out the following:
She was examined by a doctor and various samples were taken. As a result of an
examination of the samples, at that stage, notwithstanding the direct evidence that she had had a
good deal to drink the evening before, no alcohol was detected. That may have been the
consequence of its elimination over the course of time. Expert evidence sought to reconstruct
the amount of alcohol she had consumed at an earlier stage. The doctor found no injuries to the
complainant. The tests also revealed traces of cocaine and cannabis. The evidence was
consistent with cocaine and cannabis having been ingested some days earlier.

The girl also got found out for bragging about what she was gonna spend her money on "when she wins big" not something u do if you've just been raped surely?

Lets be honest she wasn't going back to the hotel to drink coffee was she, she was going back there for one thing and one thing only, she got it and then see her big chance to "win big"

Not the point though is it?

He was found guilty by a jury which is the way our system works. It's not about what people think after the trial.

I've no doubt he had a very decent, expensive defence team and they failed to establish his innocence at a trial. I've done jury service and the accused in our case was clearly guilty but the prosecution failed to prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt and we had to find him not guilty. The judge instructed us that if we were not 100% sure he had committed the crime, then we had to acquit. The defence team did a good enough job to cast that doubt in our minds, so he walked. I guess that Evans defence team failed to do that adequately.

Everyone goes into court with the presumption of innocence and the prosecution have to prove beyond a doubt that they are guilty. The Evans prosecutors obviously did that.

Why - it's not like every conviction is correct?

Quoted from Neilo83

Yeah 12 people with no background of law or anything along them lines, how many women was on the jury? How many of the jury think that football players are "overpaid dickheads" like a lot of people do?

Not for me these jurys, heard so many stories of them getting it wrong and for me they've done it again here.. I've seen a video of this girl walking into the hotel and she certainly wasnt walking like she was suffering from alcohol inflicted memory loss..

The defence called for an expert to analyse how much alcohol she would of had in her system at 4am (when it took place) and this was his verdict:
The expert called by the defence calculated that the complainant's likely blood-alcohol level
at about 4am would have approximated to something like 2½ times the legal driving limit. He
gave evidence that she would have suffered from slurred speech and unsteadiness of gait, but he
would not have expected any memory loss. It was an essential part of his expert evidence that
there were significant doubts about the claim made by the complainant that she had suffered a
memory loss. In effect, it was suggested that her assertion was false.

This can also be backed up by another doctor who found out the following:
She was examined by a doctor and various samples were taken. As a result of an
examination of the samples, at that stage, notwithstanding the direct evidence that she had had a
good deal to drink the evening before, no alcohol was detected. That may have been the
consequence of its elimination over the course of time. Expert evidence sought to reconstruct
the amount of alcohol she had consumed at an earlier stage. The doctor found no injuries to the
complainant. The tests also revealed traces of cocaine and cannabis. The evidence was
consistent with cocaine and cannabis having been ingested some days earlier.

The girl also got found out for bragging about what she was gonna spend her money on "when she wins big" not something u do if you've just been raped surely?

Lets be honest she wasn't going back to the hotel to drink coffee was she, she was going back there for one thing and one thing only, she got it and then see her big chance to "win big"

Firstly, why would a jury need to have experience of the law? The whole point of a jury system is that the jurors listen to the evidence put before them and decide on it on its merit. If there are technical issues with the trial these will be identified by the judge-who has all the legal know how required-and the jury will be directed accordingly.
As for the composition of a jury, when the jurors are identified the defence team have the power to object to any individuals inclusion on that jury. Do you honestly think that a defence lawyer in such a high profile case would allow anybody to sit who might be against the defendant pre-evidence?
As I recall there were problems during the trial with Evans supporters taking to social media in support of their friend....

Quoted from Meza

I read this document that my mate showed me off Facebook.  After reading it i can see why so many people are doubting conviction so many gray areas and so many pieces of evidence that was just simply ignored for some reason.  

Jesus flipping christ. Do people realise how information is fabricated, manipulated and distributed to suit an agenda? The internet is a fantastic development and the ability to share information and opinions is incredible, but people need to treat things with the same amount of skepticism as some random bloke in a pub coming out with something. Anyone can make a professional looking document.

Also, a lot of people here seem to have read "evidence" taken or regurgitated from the Ched Evans site, a site financed by someone with a hugely vested interest. The most fundamental thing people should learn in history classes in secondary school is to analyse different sources: who is saying it, and what bias or perspective they might come from...

Nobody was at the court case. The court system is not perfect, but unless we want to start blanketly doubting every single conviction, I guess we have to trust it to an extent: covicted by a majority of a jury.

[quote=799]No-one knows what was said or happened in that room except those that were there.

quote]

Two of the three persons in the room testified that she gave consent. The girl said she could not remember either way.

I would suggest that there is no way that constitutes guilt 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

Again, that's not what the jury, who had listened to all of the evidence, decided.

I've yet to find anything on line where you can read for yourself what happened during the initial court case although there is a transcript of the appeal

https://www.crimeline.info/uploads/cases/2012ewcacrim2559.pdf

What I noticed was it states

The facts are these.

When he arrived at the room it was immediately apparent to him that McDonald and the complainant were engaged in enthusiastic consensual sex. When she was asked if the applicant could join in, the complainant clearly replied "Yes". McDonald stopped. The complainant asked the applicant to perform oral sex on her. He did so and then they had sexual intercourse. Throughout all the activities with him she was enthusiastic, wide awake and she consented to everything that happened.

To my mind I would probably think from the above that consent had been given but then the transcript goes on to state....

A complainant consents if, and only if, she has the freedom and capacity to make a choice, and she exercised that choice to agree to sexual intercourse

"A woman clearly does not have the capacity to make a choice if she is completely unconscious through the effects of drink and drugs, but there are various stages of consciousness, from being wide awake to dim awareness of reality. In a state of dim and drunken awareness you may, or may not, be in a condition to make choices. So you will need to consider the evidence of the complainant's state and decide these two questions: was she in a condition in which she was capable of making any choice one way or another? If you are sure that she was not, then she did not consent. If, on the other hand, you conclude that she chose to agree to sexual intercourse, or may have done, then you must find the defendants not guilty."

Not being a legal expert, just a mere layman who has tried to look up the facts, it would seem that the jury chose to believe that she was incapable of giving consent and that's why they found Ched Evans guilty.

As someone has said previously another jury may have made a different decision but this one unanimously find him guilty...end of. Or is it....

Quoted from RonMariner

[quote=799]No-one knows what was said or happened in that room except those that were there.

quote]

Two of the three persons in the room testified that she gave consent. The girl said she could not remember either way.

I would suggest that there is no way that constitutes guilt 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

The two accused no doubt. The jury didn't believe them.

As i have said many times, the jury decided he was guilty and that is all that matters. Trying the case after the event in the media is pointless.

When he arrived at the room it was immediately apparent to him that McDonald and the complainant were engaged in enthusiastic consensual sex. When she was asked if the applicant could join in, the complainant clearly replied "Yes". McDonald stopped. The complainant asked the applicant to perform oral sex on her. He did so and then they had sexual intercourse. Throughout all the activities with him she was enthusiastic, wide awake and she consented to everything that happened.

To my mind I would probably think from the above that consent had been given but then the transcript goes on to state....

A complainant consents if, and only if, she has the freedom and capacity to make a choice, and she exercised that choice to agree to sexual intercourse

"A woman clearly does not have the capacity to make a choice if she is completely unconscious through the effects of drink and drugs, but there are various stages of consciousness, from being wide awake to dim awareness of reality. In a state of dim and drunken awareness you may, or may not, be in a condition to make choices. So you will need to consider the evidence of the complainant's state and decide these two questions: was she in a condition in which she was capable of making any choice one way or another? If you are sure that she was not, then she did not consent. If, on the other hand, you conclude that she chose to agree to sexual intercourse, or may have done, then you must find the defendants not guilty."

Not being a legal expert, just a mere layman who has tried to look up the facts, it would seem that the jury chose to believe that she was incapable of giving consent and that's why they found Ched Evans guilty.

As someone has said previously another jury may have made a different decision but this one unanimously find him guilty...end of. Or is it....

[/quote]

Really quite interesting this one. What can we learn from this? This quote tells me that you never should have sexual intercourse with a woman that has drunk any kind of alcohol beforehand. If unsure - always carry an alcometer and do some testing before you go to bed.

Now, I wonder if there are any cases where the reverse would be true? Where the text would read like this:

A complainant consents if, and only if, he has the freedom and capacity to make a choice, and he exercised that choice to agree to sexual intercourse

"A man clearly does not have the capacity to make a choice if he is completely unconscious through the effects of drink and drugs, but there are various stages of consciousness, from being wide awake to dim awareness of reality. In a state of dim and drunken awareness you may, or may not, be in a condition to make choices. So you will need to consider the evidence of the complainant's state and decide these two questions: was he in a condition in which he was capable of making any choice one way or another? If you are sure that he was not, then he did not consent. If, on the other hand, you conclude that he chose to agree to sexual intercourse, or may have done, then you must find the defendants not guilty."

Just wondering....

I don't mean to belittle what is without doubt a very serious situation but I recall from years gone by a woman being accused of raping a man

Joyce McKinney was her name and there was quite a scandal about it...before social media could offer the chance to get involved one way or another so it was left to the tabloid press to give the "facts"

One expression the woman in question used was quite descriptive... ‘It’s like trying to put a marshmallow into a parking meter.’

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2025500/Joyce-McKinney-Madam-Mayhem-loves-Mormon-missionary-kidnapped.html

Really quite interesting this one. What can we learn from this? This quote tells me that you never should have sexual intercourse with a woman that has drunk any kind of alcohol beforehand. If unsure - always carry an alcometer and do some testing before you go to bed.

[/quote]

Well it's probably better than my battered chat up lines...I really like you but would you mind blowing into this bag?

Quoted from ginnywings

The two accused no doubt. The jury didn't believe them.

As i have said many times, the jury decided he was guilty and that is all that matters. Trying the case after the event in the media is pointless.

Where is the banging head on wall icon?

Quoted from geir

Really quite interesting this one. What can we learn from this? This quote tells me that you never should have sexual intercourse with a woman that has drunk any kind of alcohol beforehand. If unsure - always carry an alcometer and do some testing before you go to bed.

What a load of hyperbole. There is a huge different between someone who has had a few drinks, someone who is clearly drunk, and someone who is so copulated they are slipping in and out of consciousness.

The saga goes on and on...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30851909

Quoted from barralad

Really quite interesting this one. What can we learn from this? This quote tells me that you never should have sexual intercourse with a woman that has drunk any kind of alcohol beforehand. If unsure - always carry an alcometer and do some testing before you go to bed.

Not sure if a true story. A mate of mine swears blind he bought a pack of condoms in the US. As well as the condoms the packet also contained a consent form to be signed by both parties agreeing to sex. Not sure how this would stand up in court, but must surely aid a defence.

Well it's probably better than my battered chat up lines...I really like you but would you mind blowing into this bag?[/quote]

Quoted from Civvy at last

Not sure if a true story. A mate of mine swears blind he bought a pack of condoms in the US. As well as the condoms the packet also contained a consent form to be signed by both parties agreeing to sex. Not sure how this would stand up in court, but must surely aid a defence.

Well it's probably better than my battered chat up lines...I really like you but would you mind blowing into this bag?

Are you sure you would want it standing up in court...there's evidence and then there's evidence  ;)

[img]http://i.imgur.com/BnQ8Lpe.png[/img]

Erk.  :-/

Spoof

Quoted from AdamHaddock

Spoof

I thought that, but seemingly not... Curiouser and curiouser.

Best be a spoof all the positive stuff happening at present this will de-rail it

Is that an attempt at sarcasm?

Probably not, JF may have been interested but explained that signing him wouldn't be an option as too risky for our sponsors. Evans just showing his appreciation, nothing else in it IMO

Quoted from Tinymariner

Probably not, JF may have been interested but explained that signing him wouldn't be an option as too risky for our sponsors. Evans just showing his appreciation, nothing else in it IMO

But he also said GTFC representatives had been in touch TWO days ago. I've searched the web and it is Ched Evans, not a spoof account.

Quoted from 75

But he also said GTFC representatives had been in touch TWO days ago. I've searched the web and it is Ched Evans, not a spoof account.

with all the furore wherever he goes perhaps Ched had asked JF for advice on how to deconstruct the anti Ched flags and banners

It's a fake account.

it's not ched.

Just an aside, but if I was Ched Evans, I wouldn't have a Twitter account.

Thanks for reviving this tedious thread.

Has he got a part time job flogging Herbalife stuff?

Quoted from Abdul19

Has he got a part time job flogging Herbalife stuff?

I wouldn't advise taking any of his herbal remedies.

Quoted from JMT

It's a fake account.

it's not ched.

Maybe, but there are camera phone pics of him with his kid and there aren't any funny or ironic tweets, just fairly normal, bland tweets about going to the gym and predicting match scores,

I googled his real account. It is genuine as far as I can tell but I'm not really a twitterer.

Whoever it is they've just stuck a picture of the docks on saying that they're going for something to eat and commenting that its a lovely area.

I think thats all the evidence you need that its a spoof account.

Plus if it was genuine do you not think it would have an absolute excrement ton more followers right now?

Probably a spoof. What I find interesting is the potential situation *should* his new appeal (with 'fresh' evidence) be successful in the future. Would we have the unsightly situation of clubs all clamouring for his signature, all declaring that they knew he was ok really, and that he should sign for them.

Until then, not much else new on this sorry saga.

Quoted from Nelly GTFC

[img]http://i.imgur.com/BnQ8Lpe.png[/img]

intercourse off Ched Evans, you don't have my support. Nor would you if you had signed for us.

Quoted from MarinerWY

intercourse off Ched Evans, you don't have my support. Nor would you if you had signed for us.

That account is fake, as confirmed by his missus.

We want Ollie for the rest of the season - why would we provoke fans by wanting Ched Evans at this point in time ???

Quoted from brigg_mariner

That account is fake, as confirmed by his missus.

Yeah but you know people on here have investigated further and it's actually real (dozey)

Quoted from brigg_mariner

That account is fake, as confirmed by his missus.

So john fenty isn't a great man?