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Posted by: Trawler, September 11, 2014, 2:29pm
I'm by no means an apologist for Hurst, but we missed out on promotion by only two victories last season, and got knocked out of the play offs by default when Neilson was given his marching orders, and Hatton did what he did afterwards.

Most on here seem to think we have a better calibre across the park this season. So it's fair enough that we should hope, even expect to do better than 2013/14.

There's only three better places to finish:  losing play-off finalists, play off winners and champions.

Obviously we would all be happy if we go up - perhaps even Old Codger and Denni might raise a smile.

But - if we finish stronger and make the play-off final and lose, do you stick with Hurst?

Personally I would keep a manager who makes the play-offs in three consecutive seasons, regardless if we go up or not, and the manner in which we get there.
Posted by: grimps, September 11, 2014, 2:49pm; Reply: 1
Most people could see by January last year that we didn't have what it takes to win the play offs !
You say we was beaten by the Neilson sending off but we was already losing and had been totally out played over the two legs , In fact we started playing better after the sending off.There was no way we would have got past Cambridge never mind Gateshead.

We had played crap since the turn of the year barring Cambridge away, the same as the season before.showing to me that Hurst had learnt nothing by wasting the squad in FA trophy games , no real plan B , Bringing in unwanted and unneeded players in January that upset the team and strange team selections and tinkering.
Hopefully he will learn this season quick oor it will go exactly the same way.

Success is winning the Championship , if we are out of the title race by Christmas then I would get rid and give someone else a crack.
Posted by: Abdul19, September 11, 2014, 3:00pm; Reply: 2
Quoted from grimps
totally out played over the two legs ,


I must've watched a different first leg to you.
Posted by: grimps, September 11, 2014, 3:04pm; Reply: 3
Quoted from Abdul19


I must've watched a different first leg to you.


You must have !
Gateshead was all over us at Blundell park
Posted by: Maringer, September 11, 2014, 3:08pm; Reply: 4
Quoted from grimps


Gateshead was all over us at Blundell park


An interesting definition of "all over us". They had one shot on target all game and we hammered them at the other end. Look at the BBC match stats:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27193081
Posted by: grimps, September 11, 2014, 3:14pm; Reply: 5
Ha ha fair enough . well they came and did the same as most other teams did in the second half of last season
Posted by: ackomariner, September 11, 2014, 3:50pm; Reply: 6
Quoted from Trawler
I'm by no means an apologist for Hurst, but we missed out on promotion by only two victories last season, and got knocked out of the play offs by default when Neilson was given his marching orders, and Hatton did what he did afterwards.

Most on here seem to think we have a better calibre across the park this season. So it's fair enough that we should hope, even expect to do better than 2013/14.

There's only three better places to finish:  losing play-off finalists, play off winners and champions.

Obviously we would all be happy if we go up - perhaps even Old Codger and Denni might raise a smile.

But - if we finish stronger and make the play-off final and lose, do you stick with Hurst?

Personally I would keep a manager who makes the play-offs in three consecutive seasons, regardless if we go up or not, and the manner in which we get there.


To answer your question.... Success = promotion

No promotion = bye bye mr hurst
Posted by: chaos33, September 11, 2014, 3:52pm; Reply: 7
Quoted from grimps


You must have !
Gateshead was all over us at Blundell park


Were they balls.
Posted by: DocTower, September 11, 2014, 4:28pm; Reply: 8
Quoted from chaos33


Were they balls.


Wouldn't say they were all over us , however their manager had a plan to nullify us totally , which they did on the night . They kept possession , played if I remember about 20 odd passes before we had the ball . When we did have the ball it was the big hump up to Lewis . My comment after the game was what could their manager do with our team , who on paper were of a better quality .
Posted by: denni266, September 11, 2014, 4:29pm; Reply: 9
promotion is success,
Posted by: mariner91, September 11, 2014, 4:31pm; Reply: 10
Quoted from grimps


You must have !
Gateshead was all over us at Blundell park


We could and probably should have comfortably won at Blundell Park.
Posted by: Abdul19, September 11, 2014, 4:34pm; Reply: 11
Quoted from DocTower


Wouldn't say they were all over us , however their manager had a plan to nullify us totally , which they did on the night .


We missed a load of chances, so they didn't really.
Posted by: lew chaterleys lover, September 11, 2014, 4:52pm; Reply: 12
Quoted from grimps


You must have !
Gateshead was all over us at Blundell park


You are entitled to your view but I think your memory is playing tricks.

We were all over THEM in the first leg, but sadly couldn't get the winning goal.

We were dreadful in the second leg though, which I think is the most disappointing thing having played so well a few days earlier.

I don't think we will win the league, so we have to win the play-offs this year for the season to be a success.  
Posted by: TownSNAFU5, September 11, 2014, 4:56pm; Reply: 13
Gateshead did have their best player missing from the first leg.  He was excellent in the second leg.  
Posted by: mariner91, September 11, 2014, 5:00pm; Reply: 14
Quoted from DocTower


Wouldn't say they were all over us , however their manager had a plan to nullify us totally , which they did on the night . They kept possession , played if I remember about 20 odd passes before we had the ball . When we did have the ball it was the big hump up to Lewis . My comment after the game was what could their manager do with our team , who on paper were of a better quality .


And yet we managed 55% possession and way more shots on target than them. Some great saves stopped us taking a comfortable lead to the North-East, not being outplayed nor our manager out-maneuvered.
Posted by: Maringer, September 11, 2014, 5:06pm; Reply: 15
Gateshead started well enough, scored a goal with their only real chance (after Hatton was caught day-dreaming) then it was all us after that. As I recall, their keeper made a few excellent saves but I don't recall us missing any real sitters.

Much the same as the play-off game at BP against Newport a year earlier as we had all the best chances, but conceded from their only effort on target. What was especially sickening about that one is that the free-kick from which they scored was the most blatant foul you could ever see on Thomas, but the referee ridiculously awarded it to Newport!

It's the away legs in the play-offs which have been the bigger problem. We were rubbish at Newport, looked beaten before we'd even started, and then of course McKeown chucked one in at Gateshead before the referee started with his party tricks.

If we need to go through the play-offs this season, then fair enough. I'm more confident in the abilities of our current squad than the last two seasons. Just hope injuries don't cause too many problems.
Posted by: Stevie Saunders, September 11, 2014, 6:14pm; Reply: 16
Very difficult to say either way
Is there a manager out there who could take us the extra step should/if we fail in play offs again?
Who knows?

If success is only be defined by promotion then we might as well have a policy of one season managers - that can't be the way forward, surely

If we make play offs again (and fail), but see a continual improvement in playing style, and board has faith in PH then he must stay UNLESS they feel a better manager is available IMO

Such a tough league to get out of with the quality of player we can ultimately attract - money talks even in this league plus location/geography (whether we like it or not) plays a huge part in getting the really good players here; just read Alan Buckley's autobiography and both him and the board had that problem when we were a Div 2 side

I think that all has to be taken into account

Having said all that, if we don't make the play offs then I think PH has to go and a fresh look at things will be needed.

He will have had best part of three years which is a good run.
Posted by: brad_gtfc, September 11, 2014, 6:16pm; Reply: 17
Quoted from ackomariner


To answer your question.... Success = promotion

No promotion = bye bye mr hurst


But..

Say if we lose the play off final, Hurst goes. We are going to need to act quickly to bring somebody in. By the time this happens, our better players could've moved on. We'd essentially be starting from scratch again with a new manager and new ideas. It would be an improvement on last season so would he not deserve another crack, hopefully keep a good bunch of the players together and just add quality where he needs to.
Obviously promotion is success, whether that's automatic or play offs.
For Hurst to keep his job it has to be the play off final. If we go out in the Semis again, he's proved he can't get the best out of his team when it really matters so he goes on his way.
Posted by: TAGG, September 11, 2014, 6:33pm; Reply: 18
Define success.
Easy - Promotion.
Anything less is a total failure.
Posted by: grimsby pete, September 11, 2014, 6:53pm; Reply: 19
On the other hand,

We gain promotion,

Hurst then leaves for a better job,

Maybe the fans at that club are not always calling for his head.
Posted by: Meza, September 11, 2014, 7:46pm; Reply: 20
Success = what ever the chairman / board class as success

for the fans success = promotion
Posted by: MeanwoodMariner, September 11, 2014, 8:59pm; Reply: 21
Failure to get promotion is not automatically failure. It's perfectly conceivable that we play superbly well all season but just get beaten to the title by someone like Barnet. We could win our play off 5-0 yet still miss out in the final to a poor refereeing call or whatever. In that scenario what would we possibly have to gain by sacking the manager?

Hurst should have the target of promotion obviously but not meeting a target should not be a reason by itself to sack him. The question about whether the manager should continue in his job should not be  always be whether we would have more chance of success by changing the manager.
Posted by: TownSNAFU5, September 11, 2014, 9:16pm; Reply: 22
I agree with MeanwoodMariner.

It is not so easy to determine  absolutes in advance.  Eg, we could play brilliant attacking football in the play-off final and be 2-0 up.  Then very poor referring decisions and/or bad luck give our opponents 3 goals.  We lose 3-2. How is this Hurst's fault?

York won their play-off final against Luton (2-0) and one of their goals was clearly offside.  Luck plays a part of getting promotion as well.  We lost our against Gateshead with a very rare goalkeeping  error and a bad sending off.  

Our day will some.  
Posted by: TAGG, September 11, 2014, 9:24pm; Reply: 23
Quoted from MeanwoodMariner
Failure to get promotion is not automatically failure. It's perfectly conceivable that we play superbly well all season but just get beaten to the title by someone like Barnet. We could win our play off 5-0 yet still miss out in the final to a poor refereeing call or whatever. In that scenario what would we possibly have to gain by sacking the manager?

Hurst should have the target of promotion obviously but not meeting a target should not be a reason by itself to sack him. The question about whether the manager should continue in his job should not be  always be whether we would have more chance of success by changing the manager.


Failure to get promotion is not automatically failure---Yes it is
Posted by: acko338, September 11, 2014, 9:45pm; Reply: 24
Answer to the original question - promotion... this season ... no other answer applies....!!
Posted by: GrimRob, September 11, 2014, 10:05pm; Reply: 25
Success is a top five finish - that's a good achievement given our wage bill and size
Posted by: TAGG, September 11, 2014, 10:18pm; Reply: 26
Quoted from GrimRob
Success is a top five finish - that's a good achievement given our wage bill and size


Success = Promotion and nothing else.
Good achievement = the lack of ambition that has run through this club from the top down for the last few years.


Posted by: moosey_club, September 11, 2014, 11:20pm; Reply: 27
success by its actual definition is defined as acheiving ones goals......the clubs clear goal is to get promotion ....no promotion no success
Posted by: friskneymariner, September 11, 2014, 11:23pm; Reply: 28
Success or failure is largely govern by what happens in the close season,Barnet for example manage to sign players of the class of Akinde,They have got off to a good start and the rest of the teams are following their pace.This gives them a psychological advantage ,Winning is just as much about  mental attitude as physical ability.
This is something I believe we as a club do not pay enough (of indeed any) attention to.
Most top flight clubs employ motivational coaches and sports psychologist,do any of the lower leagues.Footballers confidence can be very fragile and especially younger players require a great deal of emotional support.

Which leads me to speculate as to whether LJL's  problems are largely  psychological and he panics when he gets into a scoring position,just a theory ,no hard evidence.
Posted by: Maringer, September 11, 2014, 11:39pm; Reply: 29
I think goalscorers tend to be born, not made. Well, you know what I mean!

In the pressurised instant where a chance comes to a player, some have the ability to keep calm and stick the ball past the opposition keeper by hook or by crook where others fail. It's a pretty rare ability which is why goalscorers are so much in demand at all levels and the problem with LJL is that he's just not got this in his game. As is often said, if he did, he'd be playing a couple of divisions higher.

One thing which does surprise me, however, is that many of his missed chances come from so close in to the goal. When you see some of his excellent finishes from the edge of the box in recent weeks, it is hard to believe that the same player could miss some real sitters close to the goal. I think calling it 'panic' might be a bit too harsh but he obviously tenses up when these instant chances come to him. Could this be worked on? I'd tend to doubt it, but as I've mentioned in the past, it wouldn't surprise me if he was knocking them in from all angles in training but is unable to repeat it in a match situation!
Posted by: The Old Codger, September 12, 2014, 8:00am; Reply: 30
Quoted from GrimRob
Success is a top five finish - that's a good achievement given our wage bill and size


So you would be happy to stay another year in this shiitty league? Success would be promotion, nothing else matters and if PH then decided to leave then fine, job done and move on.
Posted by: MeanwoodMariner, September 12, 2014, 10:00am; Reply: 31
Quoted from moosey_club
success by its actual definition is defined as acheiving ones goals......the clubs clear goal is to get promotion ....no promotion no success


That seems to be the way most have decided to interpret the question - but that makes it a pointless question. Obviously if we don't achieve our goal of promotion then we haven't achieved our goal of promotion. There's no question to answer.

For me, success is doing everything we can to maximise our chances of promotion. If the players work really hard, care about the club, try to play good, attacking football, score plenty of goals, win plenty of games, challenge at the top of the league then I cannot ask any more.

Posted by: FishOutOfWater, September 12, 2014, 1:01pm; Reply: 32
Quoted from MeanwoodMariner


That seems to be the way most have decided to interpret the question - but that makes it a pointless question. Obviously if we don't achieve our goal of promotion then we haven't achieved our goal of promotion. There's no question to answer.

For me, success is doing everything we can to maximise our chances of promotion. If the players work really hard, care about the club, try to play good, attacking football, score plenty of goals, win plenty of games, challenge at the top of the league then I cannot ask any more.




Agree with you and the more wins we get in a season, the more the floating fans might be tempted back, bringing in more finance which in turn could be invested in strengthening the team

IF we can keep on making marginal improvements sooner or later promotion has to be a foregone conclusion...maybe not this season or even next but eventually imho it would come

Posted by: The Old Codger, September 12, 2014, 1:05pm; Reply: 33
Quoted from FishOutOfWater


Agree with you and the more wins we get in a season, the more the floating fans might be tempted back, bringing in more finance which in turn could be invested in strengthening the team

IF we can keep on making marginal improvements sooner or later promotion has to be a foregone conclusion...maybe not this season or even next but eventually imho it would come



How long is eventually? We are told that to preserve the club's financial future we need a new stadium and that it's not dependent on which league we are in, however, it must be surely easier to justify and easier to attract partner investors the more successful we are.

Foregone conclusion? Why? Have we earned a divine right to get out of this league?
Posted by: FishOutOfWater, September 12, 2014, 1:20pm; Reply: 34
Quoted from The Old Codger


How long is eventually? We are told that to preserve the club's financial future we need a new stadium and that it's not dependent on which league we are in, however, it must be surely easier to justify and easier to attract partner investors the more successful we are.

Foregone conclusion? Why? Have we earned a divine right to get out of this league?


As I said my opinion

I just believe that if we carry on in the same vein we will get out of this league in the next few seasons

If we run out of money or other circumstances change then maybe that could knock us off course but as things are I believe our day will come

How long eventually is - who can say? How long is a piece of string? ;)

I know some are desperate for us to get promotion this season and consider it already well overdue but if it was so easy then teams wouldn't be spending so long down here, they'd just bounce right back if they had a perfect formular for success

Anyway if the likes of Mansfield, Cambridge, Luton etc have managed to haul themselves back up a level then I just believe we can too. Might take time but everything comes to he who waits so they say....
Posted by: moosey_club, September 12, 2014, 1:21pm; Reply: 35
Quoted from FishOutOfWater


Agree with you and the more wins we get in a season, the more the floating fans might be tempted back, bringing in more finance which in turn could be invested in strengthening the team

IF we can keep on making marginal improvements sooner or later promotion has to be a foregone conclusion...maybe not this season or even next but eventually imho it would come



The longer we stay in this league the smaller the budget becomes hindering our chances of promotion i would suggest. Success is promotion as that is the aim of the club, we can have a good season, be pushing for this and that, cup run etc but if ultimately we fail to get promoted then it aint been succesful.
Posted by: highcliff mariner, September 12, 2014, 1:23pm; Reply: 36
Quoted from moosey_club


The longer we stay in this league the smaller the budget becomes hindering our chances of promotion i would suggest. Success is promotion as that is the aim of the club, we can have a good season, be pushing for this and that, cup run etc but if ultimately we fail to get promoted then it aint been succesful.


This
Posted by: KingstonMariner, September 12, 2014, 1:44pm; Reply: 37
Promotion. Anything else is a failure. The question then is what caused the failure and what can we do to be successful next time?
Posted by: diehardmariner, September 12, 2014, 1:55pm; Reply: 38
This is the best squad we've had since coming down to this level, even the three/four seasons previously when struggling in League Two.

By that definition alone, success has to be an improvement on last year.  In the last two seasons we've been play-off semi-finalists twice, FA Trophy finalists once and FA Trophy semi-finalists once.  We're not that far off.

We could, in theory, get to the FA Trophy Final and lose, get to the Play Off Final and lose, go on a decent FA Cup run ending up in a big pay day away at a Premier League club.  Alas, we'll have won nothing, still be in this league but with a massive boost to the coffers.  Still an improvement on last year.  

Do you sack the guy who's got you that or give him a chance, perhaps some extra finances, to do what he's done the previous three summers (improve the squad)?

For me, we shouldn't be looking at anything less than promotion this year.  I genuinely wouldn't swap our squad with any other team at this level.  The key will be keeping key people fit and fresh.

Hurst's biggest challenge will be in January as previously he's failed to impress in the transfer window.
Posted by: moosey_club, September 12, 2014, 4:30pm; Reply: 39
Quoted from diehardmariner
This is the best squad we've had since coming down to this level, even the three/four seasons previously when struggling in League Two.

By that definition alone, success has to be an improvement on last year.  In the last two seasons we've been play-off semi-finalists twice, FA Trophy finalists once and FA Trophy semi-finalists once.  We're not that far off.

We could, in theory, get to the FA Trophy Final and lose, get to the Play Off Final and lose, go on a decent FA Cup run ending up in a big pay day away at a Premier League club.  Alas, we'll have won nothing, still be in this league but with a massive boost to the coffers.  Still an improvement on last year.  

Do you sack the guy who's got you that or give him a chance, perhaps some extra finances, to do what he's done the previous three summers (improve the squad)?

For me, we shouldn't be looking at anything less than promotion this year.  I genuinely wouldn't swap our squad with any other team at this level.  The key will be keeping key people fit and fresh.

Hurst's biggest challenge will be in January as previously he's failed to impress in the transfer window.


Not convinced we have a better "squad" overall by any stretch of the imagination, as highlighted by the loans and short term deals we have already used in the first 4 weeks of a season and utter refusal to trust the young pro's in waiting.
We are lighter up top numbers wise than last year, not convinced we are stronger out wide ( Arnold unfortunate, Makreth not convincing as yet) which leaves Paddy and Neilson, one aint a winger which leaves one performing winger currently.
Centre mid Brown is a definate improvement, Clay i have only seen in the friendlies so cant comment on recent form and Disley remains the same for me....at the back,,Magnay definate improvement, Thomas unfortunate, Bignot same as, Pearson & Toto still bedding in, both good players, but sometimes players despite how good they are individually just dont marry up as a partnership and Mckeown the same as.
Regards Hurst position, well should he remain in place for the season and ultimately not deliver the prize at the end of it then how many chances do you give him? Alot of the players are on a one year deal again so can he rebuild a better team on a smaller budget the year after to go one better? Big ask.
Posted by: grimsby pete, September 12, 2014, 4:44pm; Reply: 40
How can we call failing to gain promotion a success ?

Only getting out of this league can be called success,

Anything else might be a decent season but it's not success.
Posted by: The Old Codger, September 12, 2014, 4:53pm; Reply: 41
Quoted from grimsby pete
How can we call failing to gain promotion a success ?

Only getting out of this league can be called success,

Anything else might be a decent season but it's not success.


Which begs the question Pete, how long do you tolerate 'decent'?
Posted by: grimsby pete, September 12, 2014, 4:58pm; Reply: 42
Quoted from The Old Codger


Which begs the question Pete, how long do you tolerate 'decent'?


When you say tolerate if that means me, I do not have a choice,

I will always support the club,

If you mean how long does John tolerate failure,

You better ask him.
Posted by: Maringer, September 12, 2014, 5:00pm; Reply: 43
Hypothetically, let's imagine that we spend most of the season vying for automatic promotion but miss out on the last day of the season after a passing seagull deflects the ball away from what would have been the Championship-winning goal. Imagine also that we've had a good F.A. Cup run to bring money into the coffers and have won the Trophy, bringing more money in and some silverware to the club for the first time in 25 years. If we then get to the play-off final, only to lose due to yet another dismal refereeing performance with all the major decisions going against us, would you classify the season as a failure?

Would Hurst just have to be sacked after this (rather far-fetched) series of events, or would we be better set trying to keep the team and management together before strengthening the squad for one more promotion attempt?
Posted by: fiveallive, September 12, 2014, 10:06pm; Reply: 44
To be honest there isn't much out there Buckle and Brabin damaged there reputations at Luton, John Ward got sacked at Bristol Rovers, maybe Martin Foyle there isn't much out there John Coleman would play direct football.

To be fair on paper PH would be the best candidate for the position for a manager at non-league level that's they where appointed in the first place.
Posted by: KingstonMariner, September 13, 2014, 2:29pm; Reply: 45
Quoted from Maringer
Hypothetically, let's imagine that we spend most of the season vying for automatic promotion but miss out on the last day of the season after Lennel John-Lewis misses what would have been the Championship-winning goal. Imagine also that we've had a good F.A. Cup run to bring money into the coffers and have won the Trophy, bringing more money in and some silverware to the club for the first time in 25 years. If we then get to the play-off final, only to lose due to yet another dismal refereeing performance with all the major decisions going against us, would you classify the season as a failure?

Would Hurst just have to be sacked after this (rather far-fetched) series of events, or would we be better set trying to keep the team and management together before strengthening the squad for one more promotion attempt?


I've made it slightly less far-fetched for you. This makes it a more useful thought experiment.  :P

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