Hi all,

As I'm sure you're aware, the Taylor Report that followed the tragedy at Hillsborough in 1989 made it law that all stadia in the top two divisions of English football had to become all-seater stadia. In the 23 years since then, dozens of new stands and stadia have been built to replace old terracing and old stands have been converted to all seater, parts of Blundell Park included.

However, what has become clear since then is that not everybody believes that the all-seater model was the right way to go. Up and down the country, thousands of fans stand in seated areas and many would argue that the atmosphere suffers when fans are forced to sit. What the FSF argue is that in abolishing standing at grounds, football went the wrong way. What should have happened is that the authorities should have taken lessons from Germany.

In the Bundesliga, every ground has safe standing areas. Tightly controlled in terms of ticketing, with crush barriers at regular intervals and all of a modern design, these areas are safe, atmospheric and above all cheap. As part of a tour of Germany I will be going on in February, I intend to go to the match between FC Nurnberg and Hannover 96. The cost of a standing ticket? €12. Compare that with the cost of a top flight ticket in England.

The idea of reintroducing the choice for clubs to provide standing or seated accommodation is one that seems to be growing, with Derby, Aston Villa and now Peterborough throwing their hats into the ring regarding introducing it as an option; the latter has already offered itself as a pilot with the banning of its two terraced ends becoming imminent.

What I would like to know is, what are the views regarding safe standing on The Fishy? A new stadium for Grimsby appears to be drawing closer, would you welcome safe standing areas at the new ground if they were offered? Would you use them?

Feedback would be appreciated.

Standing will never be safe, we could have a repeat of hillsborough or heysel could even have another ibrox where many youngsters died including 5 mates from the same street, but it gets more people in but at a dangerous cost, i am sitting on the fence for this one

Of course standing can be safe and I believe clubs should be allowed to have it back. As long as each step has barriers all the way along and only a set amount are allowed in stand there is zero chance of a crush. It is a lot more safe than going to games were fans stand up all game and can fall over the back of seats when celebrating.

I never sit anyway lol, for as long as they have a certain capacity and keep to that, I don't see why not. Wasn't Aston Villa on about a standing corner at some point in the last 2 years? sure I heard something about it. Maybe just my imagination lol.

Yes. And after witnessing the state of standing at the Stone Roses recently, I know where I feel safer. Standing didn't make Hillsborough unsafe, fences and bad policing did.

I am an old git and like a seat , the bigger the better,

BUT

I understand why some want to stand,

It would be a good idea if a small section could be a standing area at the front of each stand.

Even if we get back to the championship we will have a couple of years to change them back to seating area's

Quoted from aaron rattray

Standing will never be safe, we could have a repeat of hillsborough or heysel could even have another ibrox where many youngsters died including 5 mates from the same street, but it gets more people in but at a dangerous cost, i am sitting on the fence for this one

balderdash. those disasters were not caused by standing. lack of control and bad policing/stewarding and perimeter fencing were mostly at fault. safe standing works fine in germany.

standing at a festival or gig is more dangerous than standing at football

Save standing would work at Blandford Park, If all their fans turned up there would still be 6ft* between them.


*6ft is just under 2 meters for the young ones!

Quoted from aaron rattray

Standing will never be safe, we could have a repeat of hillsborough or heysel could even have another ibrox where many youngsters died including 5 mates from the same street, but it gets more people in but at a dangerous cost, i am sitting on the fence for this one

Liverpool fans weren't entirely blameless for Hillsborough were they?

Quoted from Grantham_Mariner

Save standing would work at Blandford Park, If all their fans turned up there would still be 6ft* between them.


*6ft is just under 2 meters for the young ones!

safe nuclear missile testing would work better ;-)

Quoted from Wrawby_Mariner

Liverpool fans weren't entirely blameless for Hillsborough were they?

still would not have happened if there were no perimeter fence.

I did actually mean to add a poll to this but for some reason I can't add it retrospectively, annoying.

I should point out that even the Taylor Report itself did not blame standing per se, it simply said that all-seaters would offer the greatest balance of control and safety. That though was in the early 1990s before the success of safe standing areas in Germany and Austria had become clear, a similar report today is probably necessary if we're honest.

there isnt actually anything stopping us building a standing area in the new ground is there? (butrons ground has standing) just cant convert seating areas back to standing.

Regular barriers to prevent crushing. I would make the whole Pontoon standing and the Lower Findus if it were to happen at BP.

Doesn't the away end have to be a certain percentage of capacity? If so I would then remove seats as necessary in the Osmond Stand - cant remove too many if we are arguing that seats ruin atmospheres!

Whilst on topic why does the Pontoon roof point to the sky? Surely the sound would be much better of it pointed towards the pitch - like the Osmond does?

Quoted from jamesgtfc

Regular barriers to prevent crushing. I would make the whole Pontoon standing and the Lower Findus if it were to happen at BP.

Doesn't the away end have to be a certain percentage of capacity? If so I would then remove seats as necessary in the Osmond Stand - cant remove too many if we are arguing that seats ruin atmospheres!

Whilst on topic why does the Pontoon roof point to the sky? Surely the sound would be much better of it pointed towards the pitch - like the Osmond does?

it cant happen at bp, i asked fenty on one of those questions for the chairman things. requires legistation to be passed to convert seating back in to standing.

Well even if thereare only seats there can still be a crush, as i was watching allthe people come down the steps at sincil bank on Tuesday i thought, it only take 1 person to trip and people die, it can happen at any ground, i hope it doesn't but it could happen to anybody at any ground

Quoted from aaron rattray

Well even if thereare only seats there can still be a crush, as i was watching allthe people come down the steps at sincil bank on Tuesday i thought, it only take 1 person to trip and people die, it can happen at any ground, i hope it doesn't but it could happen to anybody at any ground

same could be said for climing the stairs in your house

In terms of tripping hazards, surely an all-seater stand with thousands of plastic seats at ankle level represents a greater hazard than a terrace?

Well when im going down the stairs of a football ground i am praying to myself " please nobody trip" it can happen to you or one of your best mates, any stadium there can be an incedent where people die, any ground any game any person any time

Quoted from aaron rattray

Well when im going down the stairs of a football ground i am praying to myself " please nobody trip" it can happen to you or one of your best mates, any stadium there can be an incedent where people die, any ground any game any person any time

any place anywhere. not just football. glastonbury fest 150,000 all standing, often in very bad conditions. when was the last death there due to crushing/tripping???

yes i would love it i look at dortmunds ground with awe

Quoted from hertfordshire mariner

any place anywhere. not just football. glastonbury fest 150,000 all standing, often in very bad conditions. when was the last death there due to crushing/tripping???

it hasn't happened at EVERY club either doesn't mean it can't happen. I'm sure there are the odd one or two at these festivals that have been crushed but we've not heard or researched into it.

I see your point aaron, but there's risk in everything, standing imho creates a better atmosphere and should be brought back, albeit with improved regulations etc etc

Quoted from hertfordshire mariner

any place anywhere. not just football. glastonbury fest 150,000 all standing, often in very bad conditions. when was the last death there due to crushing/tripping???

But just cos there hasn't been big disasters at a football ground formany years that doesn't mean it can't happen, look at those 6 best mates who went to ibrox in 1971 all from same street they was best mates and 1 made it back alive, one of the boys mum was reluctant to let her son go but him and his best mates persuaded her, he was 13 and he never came back alive, I've made alot of friends with lads who i see at town games, you don't expect it but it can happen, sorry for the harrowing story but its true and only because you don't expect it that doesn't mean it won't happen, your friends could be killed, anybody, you hope it doesn't happen but it could

Sorry for the harrowing story about Peter easton and the other 4 boys who died but its true, it can happen anywhere anytime, god forbid any of my friends die at a football game  actually god forbid anybody Die at a football game

Quoted from Gary Haddock

it hasn't happened at EVERY club either doesn't mean it can't happen. I'm sure there are the odd one or two at these festivals that have been crushed but we've not heard or researched into it.

i never said it it couldnt happen and it has and i have researched it and hold qualifications in crowd management. my point is standing at football is no more dangerous than walking down the street, things have changed massively since the 80s and 90s and something as terrible as hillsbrough could not happen again in england with or without standing.

No perimeter fences anymore, therefore Hillsborough couldn't happen again because if a stand became overcrowded the spectators have somewhere to go.

Quoted from hertfordshire mariner

i never said it it couldnt happen and it has and i have researched it and hold qualifications in crowd management. my point is standing at football is no more dangerous than walking down the street, things have changed massively since the 80s and 90s and something as terrible as hillsbrough could not happen again in england with or without standing.

It could but not the same circumstances, hillsborough happend against the big fences, something can easily happen now against advertising boards or against crush barriers ect or just on the floor, easily done

Quoted from aaron rattray

It could but not the same circumstances, hillsborough happend against the big fences, something can easily happen now against advertising boards or against crush barriers ect or just on the floor, easily done

but that could happen in a all seater ground to. like i said standing at football with the proper controls in place is no more dangerous than walking down the street. infact walking down oxford street in london on a sat afternoon is more dangerous!! lol

Just because perimeter fences has gonethat doesnt mean that there can't be a big crush with loads of people killed, you could get crushed  to death on a train, outside a football ground, inside a football ground, outside cinema, absolutely anywhere and that will never ever change it is impossible to get rid of every risk

It could even happen at wembley

Quoted from aaron rattray

Just because perimeter fences has gonethat doesnt mean that there can't be a big crush with loads of people killed, you could get crushed  to death on a train, outside a football ground, inside a football ground, outside cinema, absolutely anywhere and that will never ever change it is impossible to get rid of every risk

ive been saying that in my previous posts?????? now this is your argument against standing???  jesus i give up. *face palm*

Maybe if everyone there wrapped themselves in bubble wrap  ;D I'd prefer a section to be standing, give people the choice. If we were to ever get a shiny new stadium, now, while we're non-league and a few seasons (at the very least!) away from championship would be the ideal opportunity.

think this has been posted before, but the football supporters federation fully support safe standing and have a petition for its introduction

http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/safestanding.php

its also backed by quite a few prem and championship clubs, villa are looking in to it for 1

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jan/19/villa-park-terraces

If I had a small gathering at home someone could stagger out the toilet and fall down the stairs knocking everyone in the toilet queue with them.

If we didn't do something every time because there is some risk; no matter how small; then out life would grind to a halt.

A box may hit me on the head at work.
But then again if I go to work, I might be involved in a car crash.
I can't go online anymore because the electricity used to power my computer may cause a house fire.

I lived in Germany for several years and had a season ticket at Werder Bremen for 3 seasons, it would have been in the standing section but it's difficult to get one because of the popularity of them. I have however stood in many many grounds in Germany as an away fan and never ever seen any safety issues because all grounds there have to be licensed and approved by the authorities, a properly constructed stadium is safe for both standing and sitting. If we ever do move from BP, I for one would be all for a standing section as long as it is properly designed and built.

Someone mentioned Dortmund earlier in the thread, their home end the "sud-tribune" holds 20,000 for home games, if they can deal with that many safely then we can surely have an area for 500 to 1,000 mariners at any new stadium.

Aaron, best get yourself a rubber ring from your holiday in Scarbrough, it will keep you safe if you wear it at matches and of course we will all be able to see you too....

it wouldnt happen against the advertising boards , look in the pontoon , theres sections of the boards that push over at certain intervals so theyll always be a place to get thru and this is the same at most grounds these days

Again might already have been posted. http://www.imusa.org/newsarticle.php?id=319

But German model looks good ie still a similar amount of people in ground jsu ability to stand.  Biggest attendance in europe I think is Dortmund and they have the safe standing.

Quoted from griggsy11

it wouldnt happen against the advertising boards , look in the pontoon , theres sections of the boards that push over at certain intervals so theyll always be a place to get thru and this is the same at most grounds these days

But on the sections which dont flip down and if you are in a crush there you won't be able to move, but it could happen outside the ground

Quoted from aaron rattray

But on the sections which dont flip down and if you are in a crush there you won't be able to move, but it could happen outside the ground

Someone I know shattered the knee trying to climb over the Pontoon advertising boards following the 1-0 win over Tottenham.

Standing can be as safe as seating, lets be honest were not going to have 1000's trying to cram into a small area of BP in this day and age. Nothing like Hillsbourgh (thank god) could ever happen again due to new health and safety laws etc.
So for that reason id love to see standing at our new ground.

I went to watch a town Lincoln game over Xmas maybe 5 or 6 years back. Actually it might have been more years and the game was on despite heavy snow. On the way to the ground the paths were a death trap. I waited on the corner near the imp for my mate and literally twenty people slipped Over in the space of ten minutes. it was hilarious actually. Aaron would have had an heart attack.

Quoted from One Decent Lester

I went to watch a town Lincoln game over Xmas maybe 5 or 6 years back. Actually it might have been more years and the game was on despite heavy snow. On the way to the ground the paths were a death trap. I waited on the corner near the imp for my mate and literally twenty people slipped Over in the space of ten minutes. it was hilarious actually. Aaron would have had an heart attack.

I can remember that i was walking with my mum past the imp and i slipped over

Quoted from bradzmilne

Standing can be as safe as seating, lets be honest were not going to have 1000's trying to cram into a small area of BP in this day and age. Nothing like Hillsbourgh (thank god) could ever happen again due to new health and safety laws etc.
So for that reason id love to see standing at our new ground.

But nothing is totally risk free, could happen, unlikely though

Quoted from hertfordshire mariner

any place anywhere. not just football. glastonbury fest 150,000 all standing, often in very bad conditions. when was the last death there due to crushing/tripping???

People tripping at Glastonbury? (charsi)

Quoted from hertfordshire mariner

any place anywhere. not just football. glastonbury fest 150,000 all standing, often in very bad conditions. when was the last death there due to crushing/tripping???

The Mosh Pit at a Levellers gig - when was the last death there?

Quoted from aaron rattray

But nothing is totally risk free, could happen, unlikely though

If you take that mentality you'd lay in bed all day,every day - doing nothing. Because like you say nothing is risk free - do understand your point but think your being over cautious

Standing should be an option in a well-designed and well-managed stadium.  Germany has some standing areas at Bundesliga games.  No problems there.

Quoted from bradzmilne

If you take that mentality you'd lay in bed all day,every day - doing nothing. Because like you say nothing is risk free - do understand your point but think your being over cautious

Well just cos my mates or me could get injured or killed at a town game isn't going to stop me from going because it is unlikely

Quoted from moosey_club

People tripping at Glastonbury? (charsi)

haha. comedy

Quoted from aaron rattray

Well just cos my mates or me could get injured or killed at a town game isn't going to stop me from going because it is unlikely

thats the spirit  ;)

Quoted from bradzmilne

If you take that mentality you'd lay in bed all day,every day - doing nothing. Because like you say nothing is risk free - do understand your point but think your being over cautious

But what if the house collapsed? Or an elephant fell on you? Your life would be severely truncated ;)

Quoted from aaron rattray

Well just cos my mates or me could get injured or killed at a town game isn't going to stop me from going because it is unlikely

What if the lady in the main stand kiosk told you that she had laced one in five bottles of Panda Pops with cyanide. Or the club had set bear traps along Harrington Street. Would you and your mates still go then?  ;)

Back on subject BiloLCFC and to answer your question, Yes!! We've moved on from the 70's, 80's and early 90's with ground safety and learned lessons at a very high price. I'd love for our new ground (if it ever happens) to be able to accommodate those of us that prefer to stand.

youve got as much chance of getting injured at a football match as you have at drowning in a "celebrities" swimming pool


(mareez)

If we do ever manage to get into a new ground having at least 2 ends terraced should make construction costs a lot cheaper id guess . I don't see any argument for us having an all seated stadium ever again really . As much as we like to dream I can't ever see us getting back to the championship and staying in it for long enough to have to have all seats . Who knows one day we prob will get back there but I doubt we'd survive more than a couple of seasons . Competing financially in the BSP is hard enough ffs

Quoted from WOZOFGRIMSBY

youve got as much chance of getting injured at a football match as you have at drowning in a "celebrities" swimming pool


(mareez)

And presumably less chance of suffering severe anal injuries.

Quoted from One Decent Lester

And presumably less chance of suffering severe anal injuries.

Well lets face it Michael rammed a snooker cue up the victims bottom but that doesn't make barrymore a bad comedian

Quoted from aaron rattray

Well lets face it Michael rammed a snooker cue up the victims bottom but that doesn't make barrymore a bad comedian

no, thats a natural trait he has!

Quoted from aaron rattray

Standing will never be safe, we could have a repeat of hillsborough or heysel could even have another ibrox where many youngsters died including 5 mates from the same street, but it gets more people in but at a dangerous cost, i am sitting on the fence for this one

Tosh!

Quoted from Citymariner

Tosh!

How is it? Anybody can get crushed, even at wembley

Quoted from aaron rattray

Well lets face it Michael rammed a snooker cue up the victims bottom but that doesn't make barrymore a bad comedian

I doubt the bloke who did it to found it very funny.

Quoted from aaron rattray

How is it? Anybody can get crushed, even at wembley

Because Aaron, the risk of there being a crush has been utterly "health and safety" risk assessed to the "N"th degree. There is ALWAYS risk to anything we do as human beings, even walking up the street, but design of stadia, the layout of seats etc means there is mitigation and there are procedures in place to minimise the risk of a crushing incident ever happening again at a football match. Your argument is so utterly flawed that I think you're taking the urine. That's why it's tosh.

Quoted from jamesgtfc

Regular barriers to prevent crushing. I would make the whole Pontoon standing and the Lower Findus if it were to happen at BP.

Doesn't the away end have to be a certain percentage of capacity? If so I would then remove seats as necessary in the Osmond Stand - cant remove too many if we are arguing that seats ruin atmospheres!

Whilst on topic why does the Pontoon roof point to the sky? Surely the sound would be much better of it pointed towards the pitch - like the Osmond does?

Your not standing on my  seat  ;D

Quoted from Biccys

Because Aaron, the risk of there being a crush has been utterly "health and safety" risk assessed to the "N"th degree. There is ALWAYS risk to anything we do as human beings, even walking up the street, but design of stadia, the layout of seats etc means there is mitigation and there are procedures in place to minimise the risk of a crushing incident ever happening again at a football match. Your argument is so utterly flawed that I think you're taking the urine. That's why it's tosh.

There is a risk for everything

Quoted from aaron rattray

There is a risk for everything

Don't be such a wimp. People risk their lives every single day and don't baby half as much as you are right now.

Quoted from aaron rattray

There is a risk for everything

Quoted from Biccys

Because Aaron, the risk of there being a crush has been utterly "health and safety" risk assessed to the "N"th degree. There is ALWAYS risk to anything we do as human beings, even walking up the street, but design of stadia, the layout of seats etc means there is mitigation and there are procedures in place to minimise the risk of a crushing incident ever happening again at a football match. Your argument is so utterly flawed that I think you're taking the urine. That's why it's tosh.

Quoted from aaron rattray

There is a risk for everything

Yes but you can't live your life being worried about potential risks. As biccys said p, risk assessments are in place to minimise danger and 99.9% of the time they work!!  

Man up

Quoted from BiloLCFC

Hi all,


Feedback would be appreciated.

decent post

personally I prefer seated areas as I find I enjoy the game more -more comfortable sitting down as opposed to standing up.However standing areas in some parts of the stadium is a good idea provided like you have outlined they follow the German model and restrict numbers(I feel they also may entice some back to Blundell park given the cheaper seats)

Im not being a wimp or a baby wrawby im just saying

Quoted from aaron rattray

Im not being a wimp or a baby wrawby im just saying

People are risking their lives in wars and your worried about getting hurt in a stadium where safety is paramount anyway. MAN UP! Standing works in lots of lower league grounds across the UK anyway why not here?

Quoted from Wrawby_Mariner

People are risking their lives in wars and your worried about getting hurt in a stadium where safety is paramount anyway. MAN UP! Standing works in lots of lower league grounds across the UK anyway why not here?

O am not worried, im just saying their is always a risk

You've said it now. So shush.

Generally, I don't see a problem with having standing areas. Especially at our level of the game. The only impact on safety I've ever seen with standing areas is when fans are not properly segregated. Burton's ground, although generally naff, had pretty decent standing areas. Advertising hoardings are hardly a danger, because as we know, in stadiums with safe standing areas, town fans just smash them up.

On the other hand though, standing areas for me are usually the sign of a excrement ground. Ie Hayes, Chesterfield (old), Alfreton, Histon.

Building a ground with standing areas shows a lack of ambition. Afterall, although we might not get there in many years (if ever again) the championship is where we'd like to be. It seems kind of counter-productive to not build a ground that allows us entry. Maybe the rules could be changed to allow safe standing areas in the top two tiers, but I don't think they will be, and I kind of like all seater stadiums. For me, it shows you're moving up the league.

Grimsby have the chance to do something really special with the new ground. The proposed Conoco stadium looked absolutely awful. Now is the time to really push sustainability and innovation. Maybe safe standing could be a part of that, but it'd shouldn't be one of the major considerations in my eyes.

Quoted from Theimperialcoroner

Yes. And after witnessing the state of standing at the Stone Roses recently, I know where I feel safer. Standing didn't make Hillsborough unsafe, fences and bad policing did.

Correct

Quoted from aaron rattray

There is a risk for everything

If you are not living life on the edge you are taking up too much room.

of course we should have standing.

as long as there is a limit on the amount of people allowed in any one stand there is never any danger.

Hillsborough wasnt caused by people standing, it was caused by the police deciding to let every single person queuing into the ground, even though it went far beyond the capacity of the stand.

Quoted from pleasegoup

of course we should have standing.

as long as there is a limit on the amount of people allowed in any one stand there is never any danger.

Hillsborough wasnt caused by people standing, it was caused by the police deciding to let every single person queuing into the ground, even though it went far beyond the capacity of the stand.

Or very little danger

Perhaps town could communicate with the fans and have standing on the top of some stands/areas or something

Rail Seats. Google them!