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 chaos33 |
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Brilliant, balanced, calm, cogent post BC. Wish you would post more often. Completely agree with all you’ve said.
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| "You should do what you love while you can" |
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| gtfc_chris |
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Patience is the best word I've seen in that. Before the axes start flying, I wholly understand that 15 games on with 2 wins to our name isn't the kind of form that lends itself to being patient.
There isn't a denying that in the modern day of football that level of form for a club our size at the level we're at would in more cases than not warrant the managers dismissal. I've said on another thread - and the original poster did too - that February is massive for him.
Looking at the games we have and the run we're on, even those who still sit on the patient fence will wobble off if we don't pick up a good number of wins within that time.
I found it pleasing that someone has pledged their 100% support to PH though. I like him as a person and I'm desperate for him to turn it around, hopefully he and the boys can get that started on Saturday with a solid win.
There was a part I did agree with though, in that we start looking to play our way and not adjust for others. There's perhaps a logic against clubs such as Wrexham or Chesterfield when away from home, but certainly when we're at BP take the game to the opposition.
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| forza ivano |
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great to have you back Big Chris - don't be a stranger!
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| Hagrid |
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great to have you back Big Chris - don't be a stranger!
maybe we'll get 80's Glory back, i miss his 3 page diatribe |
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| davmariner |
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I think that’s a pretty fair and reasonable post, though I can sort of see things both ways. From the other perspective, I suspect that had Hurst been a new personality to the club, the level of support for him would have been much lower having ultimately overseen relegation and this current run of form (which however you frame it, has been shocking).
But at the macro-level, I think certain things have compounded people’s frustration. We can’t overlook the amount of money which has gone right through the club and into the pockets of its former owner. It’s not inconceivable that this season’s budget could have been £300k+ larger than it is. And that might only sound like two or three top players extra, but in reality it means turning the 5th and 6th choice options we signed in the summer into 1st and 2nd choices, which would have had a profound impact on the complexion of the squad.
And I still think there’s an element of our support which conflated the ‘takeover’ with a rush of investment into the playing squad. That’s because takeovers at other clubs only generally make headlines when there’s a sugar daddy involved (a la Wrexham and Stockport), but that was never the promise here. People might not want to hear it, but the plan is much more seated in steady, sustainable growth and restoration of the club. It will take time for the wounds of the last 20 years to heal.
To that end, recruitment is always difficult when to all intents and purposes you are assembling a new squad. There will be unavoidable mistakes, and for that reason I always felt this season would be attritional (except perhaps during those rose tinted days early in the season). That we’ve almost been forced into a further mini-rebuild of the squad in January isn’t ideal, I’ll admit, but in my opinion regardless of where we finish this season will go into next season stronger and more stable than we did this.
I don’t think for a moment Hurst should be shielded from criticism, something he will be only too aware of himself. The sparkle in his eyes that we saw in the Autumn has long since disappeared. The current run is thoroughly unacceptable regardless of context or any mitigating circumstances, and I simply can’t argue otherwise.
But it’s important not to act on impulse and emotion, something our former custodian was rightly accused of far too often. If we do sack Hurst, then what? There doesn’t appear to be an abundance of readily available replacements out there, and I do think that’s an important and relevant consideration. Would we welcome Steve Evans to BP with open arms? I’m not sure we would, and I don’t think the board would entertain it either.
Ultimately, the fixtures in the coming weeks look kinder than they have been. Hurst needs to avoid any embarrassing results during this period, he really does, but IF he can navigate these next few games with a series of wins then ultimately we go into the final third of the season with something to play for and the ability to put these dreary last few months behind us.
Stay calm. There are a lot of factors at play here, maybe some not entirely known to those of us in the stands. Let’s take it one game at a time. I concede we cannot afford defeat at home to Wealdstone on Saturday, but I believe we’ll win and things will look ever so slightly brighter for a moment.
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs…
UTM!
Excellent post Poojah, completely agree. |
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| lew chaterleys lover |
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I rarely post these days and only occasionally visit, primarily, to enter the POM.
Here are a few of my thoughts on the current situation
Firstly everyone is entitled to an opinion but abuse of people who see things differently can never be right, nor the language aimed at the owners or employees of our club.
With results since October, I don’t think any football fan would be surprised if Paul Hurst were to be relived of his duties. How many times have we all read, or said, ‘it’s a results business’? I know I have!
It is just the way football is today. A run of defeats, the fans get angry and boards react. Didn’t our former owner say that 6 defeats and you are out was the ‘thing’? We certainly have chopped and changed managers often enough and that applies to the vast majority of other football clubs.
I think I recall our new owners saying something along the lines of doing something different, like running the football club on the same lines as a ‘normal’ business? Trying to build a culture, where everyone is treated with kindest and respect. If an individual is struggling in their role it is usual in business to help them through it, give them support and help them improve. A long term strategy.
Fans have quite rightly imo, expressed concern about team building. We only have around 5 players under contract for next season, one of which is currently out on loan at Woking ( I think we may have options on a few more) It looks like the summer will once again see a huge turnover in players with the inevitable claim that they will take time to gel.
My guess is that Paul Hurst is as much finding the type of players he doesn’t want rather than his signings being ones for the long term. It could perhaps to be a form of team building, learning more about what types do work in the NL and what don’t. I think the league is better than when we were previously here. There are still teams that fit the image of big bruisers, long ball etc but whilst I think you need some big lads and some legs I think you probably need more technical gifted players than last time around. Maybe PH is finding the same? McAtee is this type and although it was a brief cameo at Wrexham the loanee from Villa looked a proper footballer to me.
We all have differing opinions on how the team should be set up, formations. IIRC Hurst always had two central strikers in his previous spell here but has hardly ever started this way this season. I think 2 up top would give us a better chance of scoring the goals which have dried up, even if it does potentially reduce the bodies in midfield and possession stats.
Maybe we do need to show more patience? Most fans I spoke to at the end of last season or before the start of this season, was that it was likely to take a least 3 seasons to rebuild to get back to the EFL.
I must add that I expected, and still do, that we are, at the very least, challenging for the play offs this season.
Will this patient, long term supportive approach work at GTFC? Absolutely no idea? Chopping and changing managers hasn’t exactly got us flying up the divisions that’s for sure!
As stated nobody would be surprised if PH was sacked, many are calling for the his head but maybe, just maybe, the owners vision and commitment to the ethos may work longer term so that if and when we do go up, we are in a far far better place to kick on that we were last time. They could be wrong. There are, I am sure, examples of clubs going for stability but ultimately have to dismiss the manager because they stagnate. Other clubs swop and change virtually every season, mostly to no avail but sometimes it works.
There are no right or wrong methods it seems but by owning the club, Messrs Stockwood & Pettit have the right to choose and we as fans can either be supportive or choose it is not for us.
Question is do we, as fans have the patience to support the owners vision?
A very fair post and you make some great points and stability "could" be the key. Personally, I think it is a bit of a myth; stability comes with success, rather than the other way round. If we get a bit of success then we can give managers and players longer contracts and so on. Even obvious improvements in the right direction could be rewarded with extra budgets/contracts etc in the name of stability. However, an experienced manager like Hurst should be doing a lot better than this, and that is despite a great start, a competitive budget we are led to believe, and owners who have gone out of their way to give him free rein on the playing side and have publicly backed him from day one. He is going backwards with an array of loan signings and playing people out of position, seemingly unable to influence games as they slip away from us. The owners have changed key personnel off the pitch, and if this run continues I think they will have to act on it. Stability for the sake of it on the playing side doesn't make much sense unless our form picks up. I think it is unfair to think that fans should support stability if we keep losing - no fans in the country would put up with that without wanting a change of manager, which we could do and still keep the ethos of the owners generally. It is a tricky situation for sure and I hope a few wins alleviate any talk of needing to change the manager. |
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| Roast Em Bobby |
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He is going backwards with an array of loan signings and playing people out of position
We started the season with 5 loanees and nobody was complaining when we were top of the table. Most were recalled by their clubs, which was mostly out of PH's control. JMD, Amos and Burgess have been signed permanently and Abraham, Smith & Raikhy have been signed on loan, so not quite the picture you're trying to paint. It's a similar tale with the "playing people out of position" argument that gets banded about as if its happening every week. Towler playing one game at left back, and Smith playing at right-back currently (because Efete got injured the day after Sears left) are the only two examples that spring to mind, but people give the impression that its a common occurrence, which it definitely isn't. |
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| Azimuth |
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I’ve listened to most of Hurst’s post match interviews and win lose or draw he’s usually upbeat, but now having watched his post Wrexham interview, it’s the first time that I’ve seen him looking totally beat, he’s looks like a manager on borrowed time that has run out of ideas.
I’m not his biggest fan but I do appreciate that he generally cares and is hurting for the club as the interview shows, and just on that I would love it for him and the fans if we hammer Wealdstone on Saturday, and then go on a run and a least challenge for the play offs but I just can’t see it. Anything other than a convincing win on Saturday he should be put out his misery.
Hurst and Upbeat are not two words I would ever use in the same sentence. |
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| MuddyWaters |
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I rarely post these days and only occasionally visit, primarily, to enter the POM.
Here are a few of my thoughts on the current situation
Firstly everyone is entitled to an opinion but abuse of people who see things differently can never be right, nor the language aimed at the owners or employees of our club.
With results since October, I don’t think any football fan would be surprised if Paul Hurst were to be relived of his duties. How many times have we all read, or said, ‘it’s a results business’? I know I have!
It is just the way football is today. A run of defeats, the fans get angry and boards react. Didn’t our former owner say that 6 defeats and you are out was the ‘thing’? We certainly have chopped and changed managers often enough and that applies to the vast majority of other football clubs.
I think I recall our new owners saying something along the lines of doing something different, like running the football club on the same lines as a ‘normal’ business? Trying to build a culture, where everyone is treated with kindest and respect. If an individual is struggling in their role it is usual in business to help them through it, give them support and help them improve. A long term strategy.
Fans have quite rightly imo, expressed concern about team building. We only have around 5 players under contract for next season, one of which is currently out on loan at Woking ( I think we may have options on a few more) It looks like the summer will once again see a huge turnover in players with the inevitable claim that they will take time to gel.
My guess is that Paul Hurst is as much finding the type of players he doesn’t want rather than his signings being ones for the long term. It could perhaps to be a form of team building, learning more about what types do work in the NL and what don’t. I think the league is better than when we were previously here. There are still teams that fit the image of big bruisers, long ball etc but whilst I think you need some big lads and some legs I think you probably need more technical gifted players than last time around. Maybe PH is finding the same? McAtee is this type and although it was a brief cameo at Wrexham the loanee from Villa looked a proper footballer to me.
We all have differing opinions on how the team should be set up, formations. IIRC Hurst always had two central strikers in his previous spell here but has hardly ever started this way this season. I think 2 up top would give us a better chance of scoring the goals which have dried up, even if it does potentially reduce the bodies in midfield and possession stats.
Maybe we do need to show more patience? Most fans I spoke to at the end of last season or before the start of this season, was that it was likely to take a least 3 seasons to rebuild to get back to the EFL.
I must add that I expected, and still do, that we are, at the very least, challenging for the play offs this season.
Will this patient, long term supportive approach work at GTFC? Absolutely no idea? Chopping and changing managers hasn’t exactly got us flying up the divisions that’s for sure!
As stated nobody would be surprised if PH was sacked, many are calling for the his head but maybe, just maybe, the owners vision and commitment to the ethos may work longer term so that if and when we do go up, we are in a far far better place to kick on that we were last time. They could be wrong. There are, I am sure, examples of clubs going for stability but ultimately have to dismiss the manager because they stagnate. Other clubs swop and change virtually every season, mostly to no avail but sometimes it works.
There are no right or wrong methods it seems but by owning the club, Messrs Stockwood & Pettit have the right to choose and we as fans can either be supportive or choose it is not for us.
Question is do we, as fans have the patience to support the owners vision?
Excellent post Chris. I’m neither behind or against Paul for a couple of reasons. First, regarding squad building, it could be that agents have got wind of our intention to consolidate and put unreasonable terms into proposed deals which could have then turned into contract extensions. Possible. Second, we don’t know how many strikers may have turned us down. We weren’t struggling for goals till the end of October coinciding with McAtee’s injury and suspension. For what it’s worth, I actually think he’s trying to do too much at present and the harder he tries the less is happening. Final point, just to pick up on Chris’s point. Whether you’re of a mindset that the playing aspect is more or less or equally important than the other developments, please show respect to others opinions. We’re all Town after all and, just as you might not think they’re right, they’re probably thinking the same about you. |
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| HertsGTFC |
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Lots of good stuff on this thread very balanced all I can add is some personal opinion.
In terms of strategy around long term building I can get behind that, yes it might be a long slog that will be bumpy but it just feels like the only route available.
I can be patient but need to see new investors joining JS & AP on the board when Fenty is paid off and some of the money they invest used on the team.
I’d like to see less loans next season, we’ll end up with some for sure but quality more than quantity. I still think we’ll need to manage expectations though in reality.
In terms of Paul Hurst my view is that he’s pretty safe and suspect he’ll be safe until his contract expires in around 6 months time, then the owners will make a decision either way. I reckon that is more their style than continuing the theme of Grimsby being a sacking club.
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chaos33
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