Donny

Donny fans are having an absolute meltdown. 4 weeks without a manager, 140 applicants and they give youth team manager Gary McSheffrey the job.

Fans always know best.

Le Sheff

Gary McSheffrey, star of ‘Utterly forgettable Town cameos, volume 461”, sandwiched in between Clint Marcelle and Russell Slade’s lad, Steve.

Quoted from Poojah

Gary McSheffrey, star of ‘Utterly forgettable Town cameos, volume 461”, sandwiched in between Clint Marcelle and Russell Slade’s lad, Steve.

Was a quality player, and a goal machine. Sadly, about ten years before we signed him.

It's only a 10 page thread. The meltdowns on here look like cataclysmic events in comparison and that's just at the deconstruction of a flag.

I've had a look as well and the fans are directing their anger towards the board, not the new manager. I remember when Doncaster were at Belle Vue, absolute hovel and crowds around the 1500 mark. And now we look up at them, their town has moved forward as well while ours has stagnated.

Quoted from fishboyUTM

I've had a look as well and the fans are directing their anger towards the board, not the new manager. I remember when Doncaster were at Belle Vue, absolute hovel and crowds around the 1500 mark. And now we look up at them, their town has moved forward as well while ours has stagnated.

I don’t mean this as a criticism of our owners but Doncaster (and countless others) are a great example of new stadium crowd increases.

Blundell Park (like Belle Vue was) is a dump and it puts people off attending matches. Doncaster moved to a new stadium with good facilities and no restricted views and crowds skyrocketed.

Stockwood has said a couple of times that they’ll consider a new stadium when BP is consistently full, but that will never happen because it’s a dump where the majority of good seats are already gone to season ticket holders.

Build it and they will come.

And that’s why we’ve fallen behind countless teams that were considered smaller clubs with less potential than us when I started supporting Town in the early 90s. Doncaster fans think being at the bottom of L1 is a catastrophe- a level we can only dream of playing at.

Quoted from fishboyUTM

I've had a look as well and the fans are directing their anger towards the board, not the new manager. I remember when Doncaster were at Belle Vue, absolute hovel and crowds around the 1500 mark. And now we look up at them, their town has moved forward as well while ours has stagnated.

But they had to burn their own ground down/blow it up (allegedly) to get a new one!

Quoted from GollyGTFC

I don’t mean this as a criticism of our owners but Doncaster (and countless others) are a great example of new stadium crowd increases.

Blundell Park (like Belle Vue was) is a dump and it puts people off attending matches. Doncaster moved to a new stadium with good facilities and no restricted views and crowds skyrocketed.

Stockwood has said a couple of times that they’ll consider a new stadium when BP is consistently full, but that will never happen because it’s a dump where the majority of good seats are already gone to season ticket holders.

Build it and they will come.

And that’s why we’ve fallen behind countless teams that were considered smaller clubs with less potential than us when I started supporting Town in the early 90s. Doncaster fans think being at the bottom of L1 is a catastrophe- a level we can only dream of playing at.

I agree to some extent about the new ground, ‘build it and they will come’ mantra but it’s also reassuring that we’ve got a set of owners willing to truly explore all avenues and not waste club money chasing a dream whilst leaving BP to rot…they’ve recognised that it needed some TLC for those that do attend and it’s been refreshing to see consistent attendances at BP, well, when we’re not in a play off or relegation dogfight.

There are some excellent examples of teams investing in the right ways and getting that balance and my view has always been to gather the ideas that would work best for us and put them to the test…Lincoln and Donnie are two that come to mind, I’m sure others can name a few more…

Sincil Bank is in a better state than BP but has parking issues and consistently gets filled. Or at least it did do when they were riding the crest of a wave, I think attendances are still quite high.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

I don’t mean this as a criticism of our owners but Doncaster (and countless others) are a great example of new stadium crowd increases.

Blundell Park (like Belle Vue was) is a dump and it puts people off attending matches. Doncaster moved to a new stadium with good facilities and no restricted views and crowds skyrocketed.

Stockwood has said a couple of times that they’ll consider a new stadium when BP is consistently full, but that will never happen because it’s a dump where the majority of good seats are already gone to season ticket holders.

Build it and they will come.

And that’s why we’ve fallen behind countless teams that were considered smaller clubs with less potential than us when I started supporting Town in the early 90s. Doncaster fans think being at the bottom of L1 is a catastrophe- a level we can only dream of playing at.

For most of our history we've sat above Donny in the pyramid and in my time two and, for a few years, three leagues above. They and Rotherham are the two starkest comparative examples of our decline.
They did a temporary fix on Belle Vue and then the council plus sponsorship and grants funded the Keepmoat and they rent it. I would hope that this perhaps could be our new owners strategy - stabilise the club, get us back in the League, fill Blundell Park most weeks, then move.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

I don’t mean this as a criticism of our owners but Doncaster (and countless others) are a great example of new stadium crowd increases.

Blundell Park (like Belle Vue was) is a dump and it puts people off attending matches. Doncaster moved to a new stadium with good facilities and no restricted views and crowds skyrocketed.

Stockwood has said a couple of times that they’ll consider a new stadium when BP is consistently full, but that will never happen because it’s a dump where the majority of good seats are already gone to season ticket holders.

Build it and they will come.

And that’s why we’ve fallen behind countless teams that were considered smaller clubs with less potential than us when I started supporting Town in the early 90s. Doncaster fans think being at the bottom of L1 is a catastrophe- a level we can only dream of playing at.

How do Doncaster have less potential than us? Their city is twice the size of NE Lincs. They were rubbish and had a horrible ground, so fans didn't attend. They built a new ground, then fans and success followed, but that potential was always there. Same for countless clubs that have overtaken us, they've unlocked their potential where as we were overachieving.

Quoted from Limerick Mariner

For most of our history we've sat above Donny in the pyramid and in my time two and, for a few years, three leagues above. They and Rotherham are the two starkest comparative examples of our decline.
They did a temporary fix on Belle Vue and then the council plus sponsorship and grants funded the Keepmoat and they rent it. I would hope that this perhaps could be our new owners strategy - stabilise the club, get us back in the League, fill Blundell Park most weeks, then move.

I think we can add Shrewsbury, Peterborough, Wycombe, WIgan & Oxford to that list. And even Fleetwood ****ing Town. And then there are the likes of Reading, Brighton, Swansea & Cardiff too. Clubs we outperformed for years and years and are now miles and miles and miles behind on and off the pitch.

I appreciate Rome wasn't built in a day, but GTFC's true potential will never be realised at Blundell Park. JSF understood that but couldn't make a new stadium viable.

Quoted from pen penfras

How do Doncaster have less potential than us? Their city is twice the size of NE Lincs. They were rubbish and had a horrible ground, so fans didn't attend. They built a new ground, then fans and success followed, but that potential was always there. Same for countless clubs that have overtaken us, they've unlocked their potential where as we were overachieving.

Firstly Doncaster is a town and not a city. And Doncaster's population is 110,000. Grimsby & Cleethorpes have a combined population of 127,000. As a football club they are in close proximity to 2 Sheffield clubs, Rotherham & Barnsley within South Yorkshire. Doncaster is also a Rugby League town albeit not to the same level as Bradford, Hull & Huddersfield. We don't have any local big clubs or other sports to compete with.

Quoted from pen penfras

How do Doncaster have less potential than us? Their city is twice the size of NE Lincs. They were rubbish and had a horrible ground, so fans didn't attend. They built a new ground, then fans and success followed, but that potential was always there. Same for countless clubs that have overtaken us, they've unlocked their potential where as we were overachieving.

The thing that’s often overlooked is that we are almost uniquely distanced from other top clubs. Putting Hull to one side, who’ve had their success but aren’t historically fashionable enough to draw support from distance, our nearest ‘big’ club is Leeds, the best part of an hour and a half away.

I can only think of Plymouth and Torquay who have more favourable situations in that sense. Yes, there are disadvantages to not being close to a major city but, equally, how difficult must it be for the likes of Oldham, Stockport and ffs Boreham Wood to attract fans given the stature of clubs on their doorstep. Eastleigh is not much smaller than NE Lincs, but they are merely Southampton’s Grimsby Borough.

We are playing in a league of suburbs and broken clubs, of which we are sadly one. Let’s not kid ourselves into a narrative that this is okay or that we’ve found our level. That is simply not true. Yes, times change, but the fact that our average league finish over almost 150 years of football (even accounting for the shambolic last 20) is in the top 45 of the league system, is because that’s what this town is capable of.

We must not let two decades of appalling club management to cloud our collective perception of what this club is about and what it can be. We are better than this. Much, much better.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

I don’t mean this as a criticism of our owners but Doncaster (and countless others) are a great example of new stadium crowd increases.

Blundell Park (like Belle Vue was) is a dump and it puts people off attending matches. Doncaster moved to a new stadium with good facilities and no restricted views and crowds skyrocketed.

Stockwood has said a couple of times that they’ll consider a new stadium when BP is consistently full, but that will never happen because it’s a dump where the majority of good seats are already gone to season ticket holders.

Build it and they will come.

And that’s why we’ve fallen behind countless teams that were considered smaller clubs with less potential than us when I started supporting Town in the early 90s. Doncaster fans think being at the bottom of L1 is a catastrophe- a level we can only dream of playing at.

And have we missed the Gov money train with the two and a half years of the consortium destabilising relocation. Hope not but being none committal is not a great signal to the council if there is any money left.  

Quoted from GibMariner

And have we missed the Gov money train with the two and a half years of the consortium destabilising relocation. Hope not but being none committal is not a great signal to the council if there is any money left.  

Say what you like about John Fenty, but aside from the two relegations to non-league, his legacy will be one of unrivalled failure to get anywhere close to delivering a new ground. This despite thousands upon thousands of pounds being paid out to private sector consultants and tinpot developers for feasibility studies.

The bloke was handed a fúckoff piece of land in a prime location, for effectively nothing, and spent more time with online petitions than any actual development work. A spectacular failure and one that would be hard to repeat even if you tried.

Honest John stated publicly that the club were pressing ahead with relocation because Shutes couldn’t get his ducks in a row, and then did what? Courted a convicted fraudster who was supposedly only interested in funding a training ground?

Just staggering ineptitude, the bloke couldn’t deliver a newspaper let alone a multi-million pound redevelopment project despite his bullshít & bluster. Utter failure. The new owners can’t be blamed for the many, many failings of the old custodians.

Quoted from ska face

Say what you like about John Fenty, but aside from the two relegations to non-league, his legacy will be one of unrivalled failure to get anywhere close to delivering a new ground. This despite thousands upon thousands of pounds being paid out to private sector consultants and tinpot developers for feasibility studies.

The bloke was handed a fúckoff piece of land in a prime location, for effectively nothing, and spent more time with online petitions than any actual development work. A spectacular failure and one that would be hard to repeat even if you tried.

Honest John stated publicly that the club were pressing ahead with relocation because Shutes couldn’t get his ducks in a row, and then did what? Courted a convicted fraudster who was supposedly only interested in funding a training ground?

Just staggering ineptitude, the bloke couldn’t deliver a newspaper let alone a multi-million pound redevelopment project despite his bullshít & bluster. Utter failure. The new owners can’t be blamed for the many, many failings of the old custodians.

It is frustrating that we have gone from an owner who understood the need for a new stadium but couldn't get even close to delivering it to owners who have all the expertise required to deliver it, but (publicly at least) refuse to admit that it's needed in the long term.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

It is frustrating that we have gone from an owner who understood the need for a new stadium but couldn't get even close to delivering it to owners who have all the expertise required to deliver it, but (publicly at least) refuse to admit that it's needed in the long term.

I'm not sure that having a real estate background is the expertise required to deliver it any more than building a fish factory is. The problem is and always has been money. Until somebody is willing to put forward the cash then we're always going to be chasing whatever moving carrot is dangled in front of us.

Quoted from pen penfras

I'm not sure that having a real estate background is the expertise required to deliver it any more than building a fish factory is. The problem is and always has been money. Until somebody is willing to put forward the cash then we're always going to be chasing whatever moving carrot is dangled in front of us.

Yeah, it's not like countless other football & rugby clubs have successfully overcome that hurdle in the past 30 years is it?

Quoted from GibMariner

And have we missed the Gov money train with the two and a half years of the consortium destabilising relocation. Hope not but being none committal is not a great signal to the council if there is any money left.  

You can't blame 2.5 years of 1878 being interested for not delivering a stadium when the bloke messed up every attempt of relocation for the 15.5 years before that.

We were told Peaks Parkway was the only viable stadium opportunity. The very plot of land which is owned by his in-laws. Hmm.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

It is frustrating that we have gone from an owner who understood the need for a new stadium but couldn't get even close to delivering it to owners who have all the expertise required to deliver it, but (publicly at least) refuse to admit that it's needed in the long term.

Their priorities are seemingly with things people spend most of their working week and I tend to agree that the training facilities need improving before we talk about stadiums.

Lets not forget that the current council is one that Fenty was involved with so they might be less inclined to cooperating straight away as it would make Fenty look a bit daft(er).

I also think one of the options they will consider is the redevelopment of Blundell Park. Is it possible to extend the Findus, do away with the PA box to extend the Main Stand and replace the Main Stand roof so views are improved? I don't know if any of that is viable but I would love to see us play in a much improved BP.

Quoted from pen penfras

I'm not sure that having a real estate background is the expertise required to deliver it any more than building a fish factory is. The problem is and always has been money. Until somebody is willing to put forward the cash then we're always going to be chasing whatever moving carrot is dangled in front of us.

I agree. But maybe Pettit having a real estate background is what is informing the cautious approach of the new board. He is more likely to realise that the fabled enabling development of your pal doesn’t provide enough money.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

Yeah, it's not like countless other football & rugby clubs have successfully overcome that hurdle in the past 30 years is it?

Of course they have. But saying that the expertise is currently here is not at all proven. And the fact that they were putting it in the paper that they would deliver a stadium on the docks and immediately retracted that once they bought the club is a little deceptive.

Quoted from pen penfras

Of course they have. But saying that the expertise is currently here is not at all proven. And the fact that they were putting it in the paper that they would deliver a stadium on the docks and immediately retracted that once they bought the club is a little deceptive.

That was Shutes' baby as part of his Ice House project. Shutes left the project.

Quoted from WOZOFGRIMSBY

But they had to burn their own ground down/blow it up (allegedly) to get a new one!

Where are the matches ?

Quoted from jamesgtfc

You can't blame 2.5 years of 1878 being interested for not delivering a stadium when the bloke messed up every attempt of relocation for the 15.5 years before that.

We were told Peaks Parkway was the only viable stadium opportunity. The very plot of land which is owned by his in-laws. Hmm.

A gold star to you Sir.- also another site with a bragging view of a fish factory.

Quoted from pen penfras

How do Doncaster have less potential than us? Their city is twice the size of NE Lincs. They were rubbish and had a horrible ground, so fans didn't attend. They built a new ground, then fans and success followed, but that potential was always there. Same for countless clubs that have overtaken us, they've unlocked their potential where as we were overachieving.

That just simply isn't true. That would make Doncaster bigger than Nottingham, Newcastle and Hull. Which it definitely isn't.

Quoted from mariner91

That just simply isn't true. That would make Doncaster bigger than Nottingham, Newcastle and Hull. Which it definitely isn't.

[url]https://www.citypopulation.de/en/uk/southyorkshire/E08000017__doncaster/[/url]

If we're counting all of NE Lincs as our catchment area, then it's a fair estimate of theirs

Quoted from pen penfras

[url]https://www.citypopulation.de/en/uk/southyorkshire/E08000017__doncaster/[/url]

If we're counting all of NE Lincs as our catchment area, then it's a fair estimate of theirs

No it's not.

You're looking at the Doncaster Metropolitan area of South Yorkshire rather than the town of Doncaster. Metropolitan areas are just unitary authorities within a larger county. South Yorkshire doesn't have a county council. It has 4 unitary authorities around the 4 largest towns/cities: Sheffield, Barnsley, Rotherham & Doncaster.

To suggest that everyone living in South Yorkshire lives in either Sheffield, Barnsley, Rotherham or Doncaster is wrong.

Here's a handy map for you...

[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/South_Yorkshire_County.png/1280px-South_Yorkshire_County.png[/img]

Quoted from GollyGTFC

No it's not.

You're looking at the Doncaster Metropolitan area of South Yorkshire rather than the town of Doncaster. Metropolitan areas are just unitary authorities within a larger county. South Yorkshire doesn't have a county council. It has 4 unitary authorities around the 4 largest towns/cities: Sheffield, Barnsley, Rotherham & Doncaster.

To suggest that everyone living in South Yorkshire lives in either Sheffield, Barnsley, Rotherham or Doncaster is wrong.

Here's a handy map for you...

[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/South_Yorkshire_County.png/1280px-South_Yorkshire_County.png[/img]

You're just being pedantic. They clearly have a much more populated catchment area than us

I think PP is right to compare the population of the unitary authority of Donny with that of NEL. With the proviso that Donny is that much closer to Sheff and Leeds and that means more of the potential supporters are sucked away to the big city clubs.

Quoted from WOZOFGRIMSBY

But they had to burn their own ground down/blow it up (allegedly) to get a new one!

About eight times from what I remember. These things happen.

Quoted from Poojah

The thing that’s often overlooked is that we are almost uniquely distanced from other top clubs. Putting Hull to one side, who’ve had their success but aren’t historically fashionable enough to draw support from distance, our nearest ‘big’ club is Leeds, the best part of an hour and a half away.

I can only think of Plymouth and Torquay who have more favourable situations in that sense. Yes, there are disadvantages to not being close to a major city but, equally, how difficult must it be for the likes of Oldham, Stockport and ffs Boreham Wood to attract fans given the stature of clubs on their doorstep. Eastleigh is not much smaller than NE Lincs, but they are merely Southampton’s Grimsby Borough.

We are playing in a league of suburbs and broken clubs, of which we are sadly one. Let’s not kid ourselves into a narrative that this is okay or that we’ve found our level. That is simply not true. Yes, times change, but the fact that our average league finish over almost 150 years of football (even accounting for the shambolic last 20) is in the top 45 of the league system, is because that’s what this town is capable of.

We must not let two decades of appalling club management to cloud our collective perception of what this club is about and what it can be. We are better than this. Much, much better.

Absolutely bang on. We are not a small club.

Quoted from Poojah

The thing that’s often overlooked is that we are almost uniquely distanced from other top clubs. Putting Hull to one side, who’ve had their success but aren’t historically fashionable enough to draw support from distance, our nearest ‘big’ club is Leeds, the best part of an hour and a half away.

I can only think of Plymouth and Torquay who have more favourable situations in that sense. Yes, there are disadvantages to not being close to a major city but, equally, how difficult must it be for the likes of Oldham, Stockport and ffs Boreham Wood to attract fans given the stature of clubs on their doorstep. Eastleigh is not much smaller than NE Lincs, but they are merely Southampton’s Grimsby Borough.

We are playing in a league of suburbs and broken clubs, of which we are sadly one. Let’s not kid ourselves into a narrative that this is okay or that we’ve found our level. That is simply not true. Yes, times change, but the fact that our average league finish over almost 150 years of football (even accounting for the shambolic last 20) is in the top 45 of the league system, is because that’s what this town is capable of.

We must not let two decades of appalling club management to cloud our collective perception of what this club is about and what it can be. We are better than this. Much, much better.

I agree with this and would add that what we are is a sleeping giant waiting to be woken up. We were a good championship side attracting good gates and paying decent wages to top players, beit some may have been passed their prime but could still play football. We can be there again.

What has happened is for 17 years of club mismanagement, that some fans is all they know about, that has become a norm. We use to attract bus loads of fans from the Scunny, Lincoln and Skeggy areas but all this has gone into oblivion. The fan base is still there but needs waking up again.

Results on the pitch are one thing but we need more, a new club structure which 1878 seem to be trying to do and an improved/new stadium fit for the 21st century.

We were a good championship team attracting crap gates. That’s where my pessimism about us being as massive as some comes from. Look at our attendances over the last 20 years.

Quoted from psgmariner

We were a good championship team attracting crap gates. That’s where my pessimism about us being as massive as some comes from. Look at our attendances over the last 20 years.

Exactly. Even in the McMenemy days when we were supposed to be packed to the rafters we only averaged about 12,000. we had the odd sell-out like Norwich and Exeter when we got 22,000. I think we only had one more over 20,000 crowd since, and that was Everton.

Poojah makes an excellent point (as usual....) and this club should certainly be at least two divisions ahead of where we are currently.

Those of us lucky enough to see the 1980's and 90's teams who were in the championship most of the time may well have been spoilt to some extent, because I think it fair to say that we did punch above our weight during that period.  But it set a level of expectation as to what we consider to be the level we should aspire to be playing at. That is why we often gets so animated and angry at the shambolic state we have wallowed in these past twenty years.

We were a pretty well run club.up to the turn of the century. I think things started to go downhill before Fenty took control, but even so,the shocking decline under him was unimaginable when we we winning at Stamford Bridge, Saint James Park, Goodison and Anfeild  a few years earlier, and briefly topping the second tier in 2001.   It still makes me angry so see what we have sunk to.

The good news is that we all know that this town is perfectly capable of sustaining a League 1 team, at least. and it is a perfectly realistic and attainable goal. That is what we should be aiming for. It will not e easy, but nor is it impossible. The questions is how, and  how long?

The first, and most critical change, was getting new owners. Thankfully we can tick that box. Our prospects of getting into L1 under Fenty were pretty much zero in my opinion.

The second desirable change is to bring the club into the twenty first century in terms of administration, organisation, commercial activity, supporter engagement of all of the other off the field activities. I believe this is underway.

Next we come to the team management, coaching, youth development and fitness regimes. Of course the most prominent of which is the team manger.  We all have a view on Hurst. Mine changes from time time. If you had asked me at the end of October I would have given him the thumbs up. I would have though back to the team he built at Shrewsbury when he took them from the L1 relegation places to the L1 play off places in a year and a half. Pretty impressive.

Now though, I worry and can't help but think that it should surely have been possible to avoid relegation last season. It's not as if we were miles adrift at the bottom when he took over with half the season to go.

I will reserve judgement for now, and wait to see what transpires in the January window, and where we end up at the end of the season. But whether it's Hurst or someone else, we must have a capable manager in place to build a team, whichever division we find ourselves in, over the summer.

And of course the final piece in the jigsaw is the playing staff. I am like a broken record on this score but I'll say it again. You have to pay for good players, whatever league you are in. Players on free transfers are free for a reason. If we had just brought in a few freebies in summer 1997 we would not have won at Wembley twice in 1998.

You have to spend wisely, but you have to spend. It's called investment. We have seen what two decades of under investment have resulted in.
    

      

          

Quoted from RonMariner

And of course the final piece in the jigsaw is the playing staff. I am like a broken record on this score but I'll say it again. You have to pay for good players, whatever league you are in. Players on free transfers are free for a reason. If we had just brought in a few freebies in summer 1997 we would not have won at Wembley twice in 1998.

You have to spend wisely, but you have to spend. It's called investment. We have seen what two decades of under investment have resulted in.  

When it comes to the playing side it's all a balancing act and I don't necessarily disagree but one mans trash is another mans treasure. Jon Nolan, Padraig Amond, Nathan Arnold, Craig Disley, Danny Collins were all players we signed on a free (although Arnold was on loan for a season first). But to back your point up there is also free transfers such as Nick Colgan, Nathan Clarke, Michael Jeffrey, Mikael Antoine-Curier, John Thorrington, Clint Marcelle, Jamie Lawrence etc, etc. Good free transfers will be wanted men so striking early and paying them a good wage is key.

Our most profitable young players in recent years have actually been those rejected elsewhere such as Bennett, Pollock, Burrell although Grist is truly one of our own.

I think the good work Neil Woods clearly does with bringing a few of these young players in who have been disregarded elsewhere needs to be built upon but we do need to get into a position where we can pay a couple of decent fees for some standout players. Ideally ones that we can sell on for profit and reinvest.

Quoted from DB

I agree with this and would add that what we are is a sleeping giant waiting to be woken up. We were a good championship side attracting good gates and paying decent wages to top players, beit some may have been passed their prime but could still play football. We can be there again.

What has happened is for 17 years of club mismanagement, that some fans is all they know about, that has become a norm. We use to attract bus loads of fans from the Scunny, Lincoln and Skeggy areas but all this has gone into oblivion. The fan base is still there but needs waking up again.

Results on the pitch are one thing but we need more, a new club structure which 1878 seem to be trying to do and an improved/new stadium fit for the 21st century.

I take your point about being completely mismanaged and lacking ambition for nigh on 17 years but I’d argue that we’re not a sleeping giant and talk of such puts you in the same category as Wednesday, Newcastle and Sunderland.

When we were in the championship we did alright, never really competed but held our own but our gates weren’t good, not really. We didn’t take the masses away like people seem to think and only on big occasions did we arrive in numbers. However, we have had relatively consistent attendances meetings have shown we can pull others in, be it for occasion type games so should the club stabilise and push for promotion/s, show some ambition and position itself as a well run club that is positioned in the community providing much more than just a football match every week then I think we could be a decent sized club like Lincoln, Wycombe, donny etc…

We're not a sleeping giant or a small club, as others have said there's absolutely no reason we shouldn't be a sustainable league 1 club.

We have woefully underperformed for neigh on 20 years ago, hopefully the new lot can finally sort this out.

I said it in another post but I want the club back in League One and ocassionally having spells in The Championship.

In terms of getting to League One, I think the toughest part is getting out of this division but I think we need to be striving to get there.

Burton, Wycombe, Donny have had recent spells in The Championship. The case of Wycombe especially is one of considerable over achievement but our long-term aim should be to do similar in my opinion.

Quoted from jamesgtfc

I said it in another post but I want the club back in League One and ocassionally having spells in The Championship.

In terms of getting to League One, I think the toughest part is getting out of this division but I think we need to be striving to get there.

Burton, Wycombe, Donny have had recent spells in The Championship. The case of Wycombe especially is one of considerable over achievement but our long-term aim should be to do similar in my opinion.

This, We should be a solid League 1 club who has the odd spell in the Championship and League 2.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

This, We should be a solid League 1 club who has the odd spell in the Championship and League 2.

I agree with you.

Strangely, from 1979 to the current season we have visited L1 quite a few times, but only for one season at a time. We were either promoted or relegated on each visit. Bizarre.

Quoted from RonMariner

I agree with you.

Strangely, from 1979 to the current season we have visited L1 quite a few times, but only for one season at a time. We were either promoted or relegated on each visit. Bizarre.

Between 2004 and at least 2023 we've failed to visit that level once.

Quoted from jamesgtfc

we do need to get into a position where we can pay a couple of decent fees for some standout players. Ideally ones that we can sell on for profit and reinvest.

Exactly.  I think two such players, one in midfeild and one up front would transform our current prospects.

Quoted from jamesgtfc

Between 2004 and at least 2023 we've failed to visit that level once.

Indeed. A sure indication of how badly we have been under performing for so long..

Quoted from RonMariner

Indeed. A sure indication of how badly we have been under performing for so long..

I do think that the League One we left in 2004 is a completely different league now though so I do think our next visit will be a longer one. A short one with us departing from the top end would be great but I can't see it happening.

In many ways League One is like our division. A few basket case clubs (Bolton, Chesterfield and Southend in recent years have been relegated from it) with some big, historic teams such as Ipswich and Sunderland that expect promotion. A few teams throw money around such as Peterborough but a couple of current Premier League teams have found themselves there in recent years: Norwich, Southampton, Leeds. Chris Wilder took Sheffield United back to the Premier League from League One and Sheffield Wednesday are back in League One currently.

On top of that a few of the teams that had money in our last non-league spell seem to run out of steam when they get there such as Crawley and Fleetwood.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves shall we. Personally and in my opinion, we have to accept the level we are at and accept that is the club we are. I am sure many of us have. It's when we get above of ourselves in our views that the road to recovery becomes more painful.

The fanbase is awesome at Town, and way ahead of many in that regard. And that goes a long way towards the future prosperity and well-being of the club. But if we all stay grounded, accept where we are for now, and remain positive and steadfast in our support, then I am confident that it will be for the best.

I suppose its about learning to enjoy the journey, with all the twists and turns, and the set-backs. Enjoying it for what it is, football.

Here's to a very happy new year and good health and prosperity.

#UTM

I would like the club to be a top half of L1 with a flourish into the championship aiming for mid to lower mid-table. I think once we achieve something like this it is maintainable given the level of support we have and the support we can bring in.

Hopefully, all the negativity ended on the 5th May 2021 and we have seen some of the plans of 1878 come to life. We now need more investment and wise spending on players to get us out of this league and into the EFL. 2 of the 4 clubs that have spent heavily are going to be disappointed and it could be 3 or even all 4 might not get promoted, it's such a tough league this year.

Come the end of January with some new blood and a few wins we can also be challenging for promotion, all is not lost and we do have half a season to play.

Quoted from DB

I would like the club to be a top half of L1 with a flourish into the championship aiming for mid to lower mid-table. I think once we achieve something like this it is maintainable given the level of support we have and the support we can bring in.

So would I, but that's not where a club with our fan base should be.

In 2018-2019 season, before covid, there were 56 clubs with over 8000 average attendance. That's miles ahead of where we've been in my lifetime including when we were successful and had large away followings. There were 63 clubs with over 6000 average attendance. That's about as high as I can reasonably see us getting. Maybe more if we're flying at the top, but that isn't going to happen for more than a year or two at most.

I know we have a history of being higher than that, but lots of bigger towns and cities that weren't traditionally football towns have moved to follow football and we can't catch them. Realistically, we're a bottom of L1 or top end of L2 sized club now. History means nothing and money means more than it ever has in football. We're rich in one but not in the one that matters.

Quoted from pen penfras

So would I, but that's not where a club with our fan base should be.

In 2018-2019 season, before covid, there were 56 clubs with over 8000 average attendance. That's miles ahead of where we've been in my lifetime including when we were successful and had large away followings. There were 63 clubs with over 6000 average attendance. That's about as high as I can reasonably see us getting. Maybe more if we're flying at the top, but that isn't going to happen for more than a year or two at most.

I know we have a history of being higher than that, but lots of bigger towns and cities that weren't traditionally football towns have moved to follow football and we can't catch them. Realistically, we're a bottom of L1 or top end of L2 sized club now. History means nothing and money means more than it ever has in football. We're rich in one but not in the one that matters.

There are currently 11 teams in League 1 with an average home attendance of less than 7,000.

In League 2 there are 22 teams with an average home attendance of less than 7,000, and 11 less than 4,000.

All this talk of crowd sizes determining the size of your club, we’re one step away from becoming Newcastle fans.

Crowd size, in truth means intercourse all…

Quoted from aldi_01

All this talk of crowd sizes determining the size of your club, we’re one step away from becoming Newcastle fans.

Crowd size, in truth means intercourse all…

Then how do you determine size? History is meaningless, nobody thinks Nottingham Forest should be a top 5 club, but they've won the european cup twice, and that wasn't that much further back than our pomp. Size and potential is about money and that is mainly driven by number of fans, especially away from the premier league.

In the year I quoted, with the attendances sorted in order and comparing their attendance division with their actual division, only 2 teams are out by more than 1 'division'. Bournemouth, who have since been relegated, and Sunderland.

The clubs in the wrong division based on attendance were:

Premier League
Crystal Palace FC
Fulham FC - relegated since
Huddersfield Town AFC - relegated since
Burnley FC
Watford FC
AFC Bournemouth - relegated since

Championship
Aston Villa FC - promoted since
Leeds United FC - promoted since
Nottingham Forest FC
Derby County FC
Sheffield United FC
Hull City AFC - relgated and promoted since
Wigan Athletic FC - relegated since
Brentford FC
Rotherham United FC

L1
Sunderland AFC
Portsmouth FC
Bradford City AFC
Barnsley FC - promoted since
Coventry City FC - promoted since
AFC Wimbledon
Scunthorpe United FC - relegated since
Rochdale AFC
Burton Albion FC
Fleetwood Town FC
Accrington Stanley FC

L2
Lincoln City FC - promoted since
Milton Keynes Dons FC - promoted since
Notts County FC
Tranmere Rovers - promoted since (then relegated)
Swindon Town FC - promoted since (then relegated)
Northampton Town FC - promoted since

So of the 32 clubs that were above or below their attendance in the pyramid, 16 of them moved in the direction of their attendance within 2 seasons.

Supporters through the gate is absolutely a key part of which division you should be in, and what else determines a club's size? Your opinion, especially as a fan that is biased towards your own club doesn't outweigh the overwhelming evidence that clubs find their place based on number of fans over a long period of time.

Edit:
I say 16, but I think Watford, Sheff Utd and Rotherham all went the right direction and then back since 2019 too.

My point is, you can have as many fans as you like, but, as has been seen on here recently, winning and winning trophies determines success to many…

So the better debate is successful v ‘big’, whatever big is…

The two often go hand in hand for obvious reasons, Sunderland, Newcastle and Sheffield Wednesday probably being the anomalies…I agree regarding Forest etc but I often wonder if the attendance discussion happens more at clubs like town to act as some sort of ego boost or justification, for what I don’t know.

I have always said that the size of your crowd doesn' t get you a single point.

What determines the size and success of a club nowadays is money. And even then there are rich clubs who are so poorly run that they're not successful (I'm looking at you Newcastle).

The size of your crowd helps put money in the bank but the really successful clubs already have a ton of cash - no surprises that Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool etc are top of the prem.

I would suggest that you can get into the Championship being well run and having decent crowds but to go beyond that you need serious money, only Brentford really challenge that.

Quoted from aldi_01

My point is, you can have as many fans as you like, but, as has been seen on here recently, winning and winning trophies determines success to many…

So the better debate is successful v ‘big’, whatever big is…

The two often go hand in hand for obvious reasons, Sunderland, Newcastle and Sheffield Wednesday probably being the anomalies…I agree regarding Forest etc but I often wonder if the attendance discussion happens more at clubs like town to act as some sort of ego boost or justification, for what I don’t know.

But you said crowd size means feck all. It clearly doesn't and over a long period clubs roughly appear in the pyramid in order of attendance. Whether that is deemed as success or not is one thing, but the fans that think we should be a top L1 side with occasional visits to the Championship are deluded. Even when we were there we were punching above our weight, but lots of places have embraced football in the last 25 years that have much more potential than a small, poor fishing town in an isolated area.

I would say that in general, crowd size becomes more significant the further you go down the pyramid. Premier League teams don't need match day revenue to survive, whereas teams at our level do.

In between those two levels is a myriad of crowd to income stream scenarios. The distribution of TV money becomes more acute as you travel in a downward direction and the slack needs to be taken up by attendances, commercial income and owner input.

Quoted from pen penfras

So would I, but that's not where a club with our fan base should be.

In 2018-2019 season, before covid, there were 56 clubs with over 8000 average attendance. That's miles ahead of where we've been in my lifetime including when we were successful and had large away followings. There were 63 clubs with over 6000 average attendance. That's about as high as I can reasonably see us getting. Maybe more if we're flying at the top, but that isn't going to happen for more than a year or two at most.

I know we have a history of being higher than that, but lots of bigger towns and cities that weren't traditionally football towns have moved to follow football and we can't catch them. Realistically, we're a bottom of L1 or top end of L2 sized club now. History means nothing[b][/b] and money means more than it ever has in football. We're rich in one but not in the one that matters.

Sorry but that's rubbish. Why do clubs like Fleetwood, Morcambe, Crawley and Stevenage have very little support. When Burnley, Preston and Luton were languishing, they didn't have attendances anywhere near as low as these clubs. Remove the Oyston factor from Blackpool and suddenly they are getting 10k crowds. A long history and tradition of support still matters - alot. If we had stadium like Bloomfield Road is now the fans would back a succesful team in droves. Unfortunately we can't redevelop in situ like Burnley, Preston and Blackpool have.

Quoted from pen penfras

But you said crowd size means feck all. It clearly doesn't and over a long period clubs roughly appear in the pyramid in order of attendance. Whether that is deemed as success or not is one thing, but the fans that think we should be a top L1 side with occasional visits to the Championship are deluded. Even when we were there we were punching above our weight, but lots of places have embraced football in the last 25 years that have much more potential than a small, poor fishing town in an isolated area.

The only deluded person on her is YOU for maintaining your support for Fenty. In those 25 years, you mention he was in charge of 17 of them. You might like the club being in this sh!ty league but I and many others don't.

There is nothing wrong in hoping for a Championship yoyo club or maintaining a L1 top spot, what is wrong is deranged people like you not wanting the very best for the club and true supporters.

Quoted from Limerick Mariner

Sorry but that's rubbish. Why do clubs like Fleetwood, Morcambe, Crawley and Stevenage have very little support. When Burnley, Preston and Luton were languishing, they didn't have attendances anywhere near as low as these clubs. Remove the Oyston factor from Blackpool and suddenly they are getting 10k crowds. A long history and tradition of support still matters - alot. If we had stadium like Bloomfield Road is now the fans would back a succesful team in droves. Unfortunately we can't redevelop in situ like Burnley, Preston and Blackpool have.

2 small towns in the middle of nowhere and 2 smallish towns near London is not bucking that trend. Plus I didn't say history means nothing to supporters, but it doesn't make you a big club because once upon a time you achieved something that even at the time was above where you should realistically be.

I agree that attendances would improve in a new stadium, but I can't really see them getting above 7k without a sustained period of winning. When we were in the championship, people didn't stay away because Blundell park was a dump, they stayed away because other than the 4k die hards, most people aren't that bothered and only want to turn up for big occasions or to see a team that's winning.

We might as well pack it in if we are being told we can't aspire to be a competitive league one club FFS.

Nobody is being ostentatious and talking about us spending the best part of 20 years in the championship or the premiership.

Attendances now are across the board better than 20 years ago when we were in the Championship. We've managed several 6k gates at level 5 in a dilapidated stadium this season, if we ever manage to rise back to that level and end up with a brand spanking new stadium I've little doubt we would fare much better attendance wise than we did in the 80s and 90s.

Quoted from pen penfras

2 small towns in the middle of nowhere and 2 smallish towns near London is not bucking that trend. Plus I didn't say history means nothing to supporters, but it doesn't make you a big club because once upon a time you achieved something that even at the time was above where you should realistically be.

I agree that attendances would improve in a new stadium, but I can't really see them getting above 7k without a sustained period of winning. When we were in the championship, people didn't stay away because Blundell park was a dump, they stayed away because other than the 4k die hards, most people aren't that bothered and only want to turn up for big occasions or to see a team that's winning.

Lancaster district - population 144k - but I expect most football fans support PNE or Burnley
Fylde coast population 350k - enough for 2 teams to comfortably average circa 5k plus instead nearly everyone supports Blackpool and feck all support Fleetwood.

Stevenage district population 90k - more than Scunthorpe but even Scunthorpe muster more fans - I expect most football fans in Stevenage support Luton, Watford or wear north London premiership club shirts whilst sitting on their sofa.

Crawley population 114k - full of Palace and Brighton fans.

I'll give you where history matters less though - the players perception of the place. Given equal pay and club status GTFC's history isn't going persuade a player to come to the remote east coast instead of Stevenage or Crawley. Carlisle, Plymouth and also clubs like Middlesborough and Sunderland perhaps impacted by this. But wasn't it ever thus? Haven't we had to pay players that little bit more to come Gy than more centrally located clubs?

Quoted from Limerick Mariner

Lancaster district - population 144k - but I expect most football fans support PNE or Burnley
Fylde coast population 350k - enough for 2 teams to comfortably average circa 5k plus instead nearly everyone supports Blackpool and feck all support Fleetwood.

Stevenage district population 90k - more than Scunthorpe but even Scunthorpe muster more fans - I expect most football fans in Stevenage support Luton, Watford or wear north London premiership club shirts whilst sitting on their sofa.

Crawley population 114k - full of Palace and Brighton fans.

I'll give you where history matters less though - the players perception of the place. Given equal pay and club status GTFC's history isn't going persuade a player to come to the remote east coast instead of Stevenage or Crawley. Carlisle, Plymouth and also clubs like Middlesborough and Sunderland perhaps impacted by this. But wasn't it ever thus? Haven't we had to pay players that little bit more to come Gy than more centrally located clubs?

Fleetwood as a percentage of the town to fans attending is the 2nd best supported club in the bottom 2 divisions after FGR. Morecambe are in the top 10. We're well supported by this metric too.

I don't get what point you're trying to make though. Fans aren't going to stop supporting actual big clubs for a slightly more local small club just because they have a good couple of seasons. The point is that past success isn't what makes a club big, it's supporters that actually get off their bottom and go watch games. Of which we've not had enough in the last 30 years to be anything more than a lower league side.

The bizarre notion that fans will just start attending when some vague condition is met, but it didn't happen when it was previously met is lost on me. We'd get more fans if we consistently won, but after 2 promotions, we'd need huge amounts of money to keep winning.

Quoted from Limerick Mariner

Stevenage district population 90k - more than Scunthorpe but even Scunthorpe muster more fans - I expect most football fans in Stevenage support Luton, Watford or wear north London premiership club shirts whilst sitting on their sofa.

I doubt you would see a Luton or Watford shirt in Stevenage. Stevenage & other new towns (including Crawley) were largely populated with people moving out of the poorer areas of London in the generations following the war, so it was mainly Arsenal, Tottenham, West Ham & Millwall supporters and those clubs still have large following in places like Stevenage, Harlow, Hemel Hempstead, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield, Basildon etc...

Quoted from GollyGTFC

I doubt you would see a Luton or Watford shirt in Stevenage. Stevenage & other new towns (including Crawley) were largely populated with people moving out of the poorer areas of London in the generations following the war, so it was mainly Arsenal, Tottenham, West Ham & Millwall supporters and those clubs still have large following in places like Stevenage, Harlow, Hemel Hempstead, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield, Basildon etc...

Good point, but you also won't see many Stevenage shirts in Stevenage. I lived in Bedford for a bit years ago - a fair number of Luton fans there, probably more Chelsea though.

Quoted from pen penfras

Fleetwood as a percentage of the town to fans attending is the 2nd best supported club in the bottom 2 divisions after FGR. Morecambe are in the top 10. We're well supported by this metric too.

I don't get what point you're trying to make though. Fans aren't going to stop supporting actual big clubs for a slightly more local small club just because they have a good couple of seasons. The point is that past success isn't what makes a club big, it's supporters that actually get off their bottom and go watch games. Of which we've not had enough in the last 30 years to be anything more than a lower league side.

The bizarre notion that fans will just start attending when some vague condition is met, but it didn't happen when it was previously met is lost on me. We'd get more fans if we consistently won, but after 2 promotions, we'd need huge amounts of money to keep winning.

That history matters - particularly in the ability to bounce back from the bad times - like Blackpool, and going back a few years Burnley and they are just examples I've used already - there are loads. It's not a bizarre notion that a nice new stadium attracts a big increase in footfall, nor is a new stadium a vague condition. We've debated it time and time again on here and the evidence is everywhere in football in this country - new stadium + even a moderate rise up the football pyramid and you get thousands of extra fans if you have the historical support in the town / city plus hinterland. The exceptions are bizarre - like the idea of building a 25k all-seater stadium on a roundabout outside Darlington...

Bournemouth - hardly a hotbed of football enthusiasts - refurbished Dean Court & retained their ground capacity  of some 11k. They reached the pinnacle of the Premiership & look like returning there next season. That methinks is the model we should be aspiring to.
In my lifetime our average attendances peaked  in the late 50's /early 60's around 10k.

Quoted from Heswall Mariner

Bournemouth - hardly a hotbed of football enthusiasts - refurbished Dean Court & retained their ground capacity  of some 11k. They reached the pinnacle of the Premiership & look like returning there next season. That methinks is the model we should be aspiring to.
In my lifetime our average attendances peaked  in the late 50's /early 60's around 10k.


But gates of 11k didn't get them there. Massive investment did in the shape of Maxim Demin, a Russian who is worth about a billion quid.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

I doubt you would see a Luton or Watford shirt in Stevenage. Stevenage & other new towns (including Crawley) were largely populated with people moving out of the poorer areas of London in the generations following the war, so it was mainly Arsenal, Tottenham, West Ham & Millwall supporters and those clubs still have large following in places like Stevenage, Harlow, Hemel Hempstead, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield, Basildon etc...

I lived in Crawley and now live in Stevenage - must  be a penance for something I did in a former life. I’m not sure the new town family supported thing is as relevant as it may have been but it’s a factor. I think the Prem being rammed down your throat at every opportunity impacts all small clubs in terms of attracting support and attendances. Luckily I have never really come across too many Millwall supporters.

Quoted from HertsGTFC

I lived in Crawley and now live in Stevenage - must  be a penance for something I did in a former life. I’m not sure the new town family supported thing is as relevant as it may have been but it’s a factor. I think the Prem being rammed down your throat at every opportunity impacts all small clubs in terms of attracting support and attendances. Luckily I have never really come across too many Millwall supporters.

It must have been very very bad...Russian front?

"...rode a tank
Held a general's rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank"

For feck's sake don't apply for any jobs in Corby or Skelmersdale...

Quoted from Limerick Mariner

It must have been very very bad...Russian front?

"...rode a tank
Held a general's rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank"

For feck's sake don't apply for any jobs in Corby or Skelmersdale...

Good Stones reference there ……. 😉 oddly enough I used to look after a business that I helped set up in Corby and up until a couple of years ago the company I work for used to have offices in Skelm where we’d go for training events.

Russian front? Most probably 😂

Quoted from pen penfras

But you said crowd size means feck all. It clearly doesn't and over a long period clubs roughly appear in the pyramid in order of attendance. Whether that is deemed as success or not is one thing, but the fans that think we should be a top L1 side with occasional visits to the Championship are deluded. Even when we were there we were punching above our weight, but lots of places have embraced football in the last 25 years that have much more potential than a small, poor fishing town in an isolated area.

I think it's easy to lose track of the fact that League One is basically a rebranded Third division and thus sounds grander than it actually is.
So maybe they aren't that deluded, just disappointed.

I see Omar Bogle came on as sub after 34 minutes today with Donny 3-0 up at Morecambe… and they lost 4-3.

Quoted from GollyGTFC

I see Omar Bogle came on as sub after 34 minutes today with Donny 3-0 up at Morecambe… and they lost 4-3.

Someone on another thread said he was subbed off injured after 34 mins?

Good to see some posting which is sensible
We should be a solid league 1 team with occasional flirtation in champs and league 2
I’m sure the new owners understand that well
If we develop and regular seasons at top end of l1 occur we can reassess
For the moment we might just lose to Halifax who are outperforming at top of National league☹️

Some positive comments on the Rover's forum about Omar one even suggested they would have won if he hadn't gone off injured.

Quoted from pen penfras

But you said crowd size means feck all. It clearly doesn't and over a long period clubs roughly appear in the pyramid in order of attendance. Whether that is deemed as success or not is one thing, but the fans that think we should be a top L1 side with occasional visits to the Championship are deluded. Even when we were there we were punching above our weight, but lots of places have embraced football in the last 25 years that have much more potential than a small, poor fishing town in an isolated area.

That’s exactly where we should aspire to be. Works for Peterborough and even more so for Bournemouth and Brentford.
The key part of what those clubs have done has been to mobiles and grow their fan base. Something our less than glorious erstwhile leader failed to understand nor do. If you want to try and tell me that our club should not be regarded in the same thoughts as those three clubs and others of a similar status then I’ll tell you you’re plain wrong. It’s all about ambition and we know where the ambition of this club stopped for the last few years and that was with mediocre survival and even that failed.

Quoted from Theimperialcoroner

That’s exactly where we should aspire to be. Works for Peterborough and even more so for Bournemouth and Brentford.
The key part of what those clubs have done has been to mobiles and grow their fan base. Something our less than glorious erstwhile leader failed to understand nor do. If you want to try and tell me that our club should not be regarded in the same thoughts as those three clubs and others of a similar status then I’ll tell you you’re plain wrong. It’s all about ambition and we know where the ambition of this club stopped for the last few years and that was with mediocre survival and even that failed.

I think this is a worthy aspiration but realistic ambition at the moment? I can’t be sure.

Looking at recent history that type of progression needs 1 of 2 or both of the following to become a reality, owners willing to fund (often blindly) and/or rapid socioeconomic growth in the area. Sadly we’ve missed out on both. You could also add to that the benefits of a densely populated catchment to draw talent to and support from.

In my mind the answer is to have 1 clear footballing objective at a time, something the former “major shareholder” never really had as he knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Obviously the “clear objective” is to get back to the EFL and then and only then should it be to get promoted again, brace yourselves though as this will take a few years at best.

There where so many instances in the Fenty reign that either made me angry or very sad, too many to count back on but in footballing terms the press conference where that bell end Philip Day said the ambition was to get to the Championship within 5 years as he unveiled the unproven (cheap option) Michael Jolley as manager said it all about their true objectives and they weren’t footballing ones.

Quoted from ginnywings

Someone on another thread said he was subbed off injured after 34 mins?

D’oh!

Quoted from pen penfras

But you said crowd size means feck all. It clearly doesn't and over a long period clubs roughly appear in the pyramid in order of attendance. Whether that is deemed as success or not is one thing, but the fans that think we should be a top L1 side with occasional visits to the Championship are deluded. Even when we were there we were punching above our weight, but lots of places have embraced football in the last 25 years that have much more potential than a small, poor fishing town in an isolated area.

It was exactly this kind of thinking that kept us down in the lower reaches. No point trying because it can't be done seems to be what you are saying.

Should we ask the 3000 Burton Albion fans or the 5000 Shrewsbury fans ( I could name others) what they think about your assertion.

Not to mention Accrington.   Stanley.

Quoted from ginnywings

It was exactly this kind of thinking that kept us down in the lower reaches. No point trying because it can't be done seems to be what you are saying.

Should we ask the 3000 Burton Albion fans or the 5000 Shrewsbury fans ( I could name others) what they think about your assertion.

Ask them what you want, and expect whatever you want, but the statistics don't back up that we should be anywhere near a top L1 side with the occasional visit to the Championship. Nobody that says those things has a single justifiable reason for why they think that, just that 'we can'.

Virtually every football club's supporters have unrealistic expectations of where they should be and they all expect improvement season on season. I'll take a realistic view that if we can get at the top end of L2 and winning more games than we're losing that I won't be unhappy. If we make it to L1 then I'll be delighted but not expect to be competing with the fallen giants that are occasionally in there.

Quoted from pen penfras

Ask them what you want, and expect whatever you want, but the statistics don't back up that we should be anywhere near a top L1 side with the occasional visit to the Championship. Nobody that says those things has a single justifiable reason for why they think that, just that 'we can'.

Virtually every football club's supporters have unrealistic expectations of where they should be and they all expect improvement season on season. I'll take a realistic view that if we can get at the top end of L2 and winning more games than we're losing that I won't be unhappy. If we make it to L1 then I'll be delighted but not expect to be competing with the fallen giants that are occasionally in there.

Yeah, you're dead right. Let's just be happy with holding our own in League 2.

You are definitely part of the old regime aren't you?

Quoted from Poojah

The thing that’s often overlooked is that we are almost uniquely distanced from other top clubs. Putting Hull to one side, who’ve had their success but aren’t historically fashionable enough to draw support from distance, our nearest ‘big’ club is Leeds, the best part of an hour and a half away.

I can only think of Plymouth and Torquay who have more favourable situations in that sense. Yes, there are disadvantages to not being close to a major city but, equally, how difficult must it be for the likes of Oldham, Stockport and ffs Boreham Wood to attract fans given the stature of clubs on their doorstep. Eastleigh is not much smaller than NE Lincs, but they are merely Southampton’s Grimsby Borough.

We are playing in a league of suburbs and broken clubs, of which we are sadly one. Let’s not kid ourselves into a narrative that this is okay or that we’ve found our level. That is simply not true. Yes, times change, but the fact that our average league finish over almost 150 years of football (even accounting for the shambolic last 20) is in the top 45 of the league system, is because that’s what this town is capable of.

We must not let two decades of appalling club management to cloud our collective perception of what this club is about and what it can be. We are better than this. Much, much better.

There are 20 teams in the Premier League and 24 in the Championship, so what you are saying in other words is that our natural position is top of League One. That's probably about right, although the longer we spend below that level, the further we will slip down the all-time table.

I don't know where Poojah got his information, but I found this website: https://sean.mcgivern.me.uk/historical-league-positions/

We are still above Swansea (47.1), Brighton (47.3), Reading (48.1), Brentford (51.5), Bournemouth (54.6) and Lincoln (57.7).

Scunthorpe United are 66.5.

Don’t think we should expect to be top of league 1, but we should target being a side challenging in league 1 with the odd skirmish in championship.
Bit like Rotherham

Teams mentioned on here that have progressed have done so with the help and support of their local councils. That would never happen here in N. E. Lincs!