Donny

I would like the club to be a top half of L1 with a flourish into the championship aiming for mid to lower mid-table. I think once we achieve something like this it is maintainable given the level of support we have and the support we can bring in.

Hopefully, all the negativity ended on the 5th May 2021 and we have seen some of the plans of 1878 come to life. We now need more investment and wise spending on players to get us out of this league and into the EFL. 2 of the 4 clubs that have spent heavily are going to be disappointed and it could be 3 or even all 4 might not get promoted, it's such a tough league this year.

Come the end of January with some new blood and a few wins we can also be challenging for promotion, all is not lost and we do have half a season to play.

Quoted from DB

I would like the club to be a top half of L1 with a flourish into the championship aiming for mid to lower mid-table. I think once we achieve something like this it is maintainable given the level of support we have and the support we can bring in.

So would I, but that's not where a club with our fan base should be.

In 2018-2019 season, before covid, there were 56 clubs with over 8000 average attendance. That's miles ahead of where we've been in my lifetime including when we were successful and had large away followings. There were 63 clubs with over 6000 average attendance. That's about as high as I can reasonably see us getting. Maybe more if we're flying at the top, but that isn't going to happen for more than a year or two at most.

I know we have a history of being higher than that, but lots of bigger towns and cities that weren't traditionally football towns have moved to follow football and we can't catch them. Realistically, we're a bottom of L1 or top end of L2 sized club now. History means nothing and money means more than it ever has in football. We're rich in one but not in the one that matters.

Quoted from pen penfras

So would I, but that's not where a club with our fan base should be.

In 2018-2019 season, before covid, there were 56 clubs with over 8000 average attendance. That's miles ahead of where we've been in my lifetime including when we were successful and had large away followings. There were 63 clubs with over 6000 average attendance. That's about as high as I can reasonably see us getting. Maybe more if we're flying at the top, but that isn't going to happen for more than a year or two at most.

I know we have a history of being higher than that, but lots of bigger towns and cities that weren't traditionally football towns have moved to follow football and we can't catch them. Realistically, we're a bottom of L1 or top end of L2 sized club now. History means nothing and money means more than it ever has in football. We're rich in one but not in the one that matters.

There are currently 11 teams in League 1 with an average home attendance of less than 7,000.

In League 2 there are 22 teams with an average home attendance of less than 7,000, and 11 less than 4,000.

All this talk of crowd sizes determining the size of your club, we’re one step away from becoming Newcastle fans.

Crowd size, in truth means intercourse all…

Quoted from aldi_01

All this talk of crowd sizes determining the size of your club, we’re one step away from becoming Newcastle fans.

Crowd size, in truth means intercourse all…

Then how do you determine size? History is meaningless, nobody thinks Nottingham Forest should be a top 5 club, but they've won the european cup twice, and that wasn't that much further back than our pomp. Size and potential is about money and that is mainly driven by number of fans, especially away from the premier league.

In the year I quoted, with the attendances sorted in order and comparing their attendance division with their actual division, only 2 teams are out by more than 1 'division'. Bournemouth, who have since been relegated, and Sunderland.

The clubs in the wrong division based on attendance were:

Premier League
Crystal Palace FC
Fulham FC - relegated since
Huddersfield Town AFC - relegated since
Burnley FC
Watford FC
AFC Bournemouth - relegated since

Championship
Aston Villa FC - promoted since
Leeds United FC - promoted since
Nottingham Forest FC
Derby County FC
Sheffield United FC
Hull City AFC - relgated and promoted since
Wigan Athletic FC - relegated since
Brentford FC
Rotherham United FC

L1
Sunderland AFC
Portsmouth FC
Bradford City AFC
Barnsley FC - promoted since
Coventry City FC - promoted since
AFC Wimbledon
Scunthorpe United FC - relegated since
Rochdale AFC
Burton Albion FC
Fleetwood Town FC
Accrington Stanley FC

L2
Lincoln City FC - promoted since
Milton Keynes Dons FC - promoted since
Notts County FC
Tranmere Rovers - promoted since (then relegated)
Swindon Town FC - promoted since (then relegated)
Northampton Town FC - promoted since

So of the 32 clubs that were above or below their attendance in the pyramid, 16 of them moved in the direction of their attendance within 2 seasons.

Supporters through the gate is absolutely a key part of which division you should be in, and what else determines a club's size? Your opinion, especially as a fan that is biased towards your own club doesn't outweigh the overwhelming evidence that clubs find their place based on number of fans over a long period of time.

Edit:
I say 16, but I think Watford, Sheff Utd and Rotherham all went the right direction and then back since 2019 too.

My point is, you can have as many fans as you like, but, as has been seen on here recently, winning and winning trophies determines success to many…

So the better debate is successful v ‘big’, whatever big is…

The two often go hand in hand for obvious reasons, Sunderland, Newcastle and Sheffield Wednesday probably being the anomalies…I agree regarding Forest etc but I often wonder if the attendance discussion happens more at clubs like town to act as some sort of ego boost or justification, for what I don’t know.

I have always said that the size of your crowd doesn' t get you a single point.

What determines the size and success of a club nowadays is money. And even then there are rich clubs who are so poorly run that they're not successful (I'm looking at you Newcastle).

The size of your crowd helps put money in the bank but the really successful clubs already have a ton of cash - no surprises that Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool etc are top of the prem.

I would suggest that you can get into the Championship being well run and having decent crowds but to go beyond that you need serious money, only Brentford really challenge that.

Quoted from aldi_01

My point is, you can have as many fans as you like, but, as has been seen on here recently, winning and winning trophies determines success to many…

So the better debate is successful v ‘big’, whatever big is…

The two often go hand in hand for obvious reasons, Sunderland, Newcastle and Sheffield Wednesday probably being the anomalies…I agree regarding Forest etc but I often wonder if the attendance discussion happens more at clubs like town to act as some sort of ego boost or justification, for what I don’t know.

But you said crowd size means feck all. It clearly doesn't and over a long period clubs roughly appear in the pyramid in order of attendance. Whether that is deemed as success or not is one thing, but the fans that think we should be a top L1 side with occasional visits to the Championship are deluded. Even when we were there we were punching above our weight, but lots of places have embraced football in the last 25 years that have much more potential than a small, poor fishing town in an isolated area.

I would say that in general, crowd size becomes more significant the further you go down the pyramid. Premier League teams don't need match day revenue to survive, whereas teams at our level do.

In between those two levels is a myriad of crowd to income stream scenarios. The distribution of TV money becomes more acute as you travel in a downward direction and the slack needs to be taken up by attendances, commercial income and owner input.

Quoted from pen penfras

So would I, but that's not where a club with our fan base should be.

In 2018-2019 season, before covid, there were 56 clubs with over 8000 average attendance. That's miles ahead of where we've been in my lifetime including when we were successful and had large away followings. There were 63 clubs with over 6000 average attendance. That's about as high as I can reasonably see us getting. Maybe more if we're flying at the top, but that isn't going to happen for more than a year or two at most.

I know we have a history of being higher than that, but lots of bigger towns and cities that weren't traditionally football towns have moved to follow football and we can't catch them. Realistically, we're a bottom of L1 or top end of L2 sized club now. History means nothing[b][/b] and money means more than it ever has in football. We're rich in one but not in the one that matters.

Sorry but that's rubbish. Why do clubs like Fleetwood, Morcambe, Crawley and Stevenage have very little support. When Burnley, Preston and Luton were languishing, they didn't have attendances anywhere near as low as these clubs. Remove the Oyston factor from Blackpool and suddenly they are getting 10k crowds. A long history and tradition of support still matters - alot. If we had stadium like Bloomfield Road is now the fans would back a succesful team in droves. Unfortunately we can't redevelop in situ like Burnley, Preston and Blackpool have.