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Bristol City Finances

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jamesgtfc
December 28, 2021, 11:30pm
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Looking at those figures I wouldn't be surprised to see Towler getting a decent crack of the whip at Bristol City.

[url]https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1475835655192203280?t=7cAje07wqUcyzhGa_sN5Lg&s=19[/url]
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HerveJosse
December 28, 2021, 11:57pm
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Lansdown is down to his last £2.5 bn so I am sure Ryley will be in the frame.
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fishboyUTM
December 29, 2021, 7:58am
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Appreciate wages will be for the whole club staff. But 35.3 million pounds a year. That can't make sense for a second tier side, and not a particularly big second tier side.

Ignoring the club shop staff / stewards / various managers etc. If you was to pay each player in a squad of 30 equally, that equates to 1.2 million a year each. Lunancy.
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golfer
December 29, 2021, 8:45am
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Figures don't lie unless you want them to
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Bristol Mariner
December 29, 2021, 8:51am

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Lansdown wipes it off each year.


GTFC Exile, Bristol Mariners
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aldi_01
December 29, 2021, 9:02am

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My interpretation was that Lanadown wipes it pretty much every year but could be wrong.

That wage bill is bonkers and whilst Bristol were only 90 minutes from top flight football not that long ago, that amount is eye watering really and should really indicate to those that believe town should be in that division need to understand how far we, and many other clubs that have been there are from that level these days…

I’d like to know what they average wage bill at that level is…


'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
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HerveJosse
December 29, 2021, 9:19am
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They had £16m annual commercial income pre pandemic. That needs staff to earn it. . Football clubs at this level now employ hundreds of people.and do far more then football.
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jamesgtfc
December 29, 2021, 10:43am
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Quoted from aldi_01
My interpretation was that Lanadown wipes it pretty much every year but could be wrong.

That wage bill is bonkers and whilst Bristol were only 90 minutes from top flight football not that long ago, that amount is eye watering really and should really indicate to those that believe town should be in that division need to understand how far we, and many other clubs that have been there are from that level these days…

I’d like to know what they average wage bill at that level is…


There comes a time when he/his family no longer want to prop it up though which is why sustainability is important.

We must have had a bottom 5 budget in our last spell there yet still managed to pay Zhang Enhua £12k p/w.
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aldi_01
December 29, 2021, 10:43am

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Quoted from HerveJosse
They had £16m annual commercial income pre pandemic. That needs staff to earn it. . Football clubs at this level now employ hundreds of people.and do far more then football.


And yet people on this board would say none of that matters…


'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
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GollyGTFC
December 29, 2021, 11:11am

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The Championship as a whole loses £600 million a year. That averages £25 million per club. Last season Rotherham made a profit and Wycombe broke even. The other 22 clubs made losses.

Whilst £35 million seems incomprehensible it just puts them in the top half of losses makers. Their losses aren’t exceptional. There are plenty of clubs who lose far more such as Stoke City & Derby County until Mel Morris got bored.
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Gaffer58
December 29, 2021, 11:28am
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I’m confused (dot com) but doesn’t FFP come into play, surely if their annual loses are wrote off each year then FFP is pointless. They could spend (lose) another £100 million and there’s no consequence ?
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RonMariner
December 29, 2021, 12:31pm

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No normal business would run at such ridiculous and deliberate loss making levels. I cant see any well run club with balanced outgoings ever being able to compete in the championship.

It filters down to our level too. Three of our rivals are fielding £250k strikers. They are all currently above us. But that is who we are competing against. But the sad fact is that, without going crazy, if you want to be successful, you really have no choice but to invest to some extent.

We have been promoted just twice in the last forty years. In 1998 it was as a result of spending around £1million to bring Groves, Donovan, and Burnett to the club.  In 2016 it was after we spent £50k on Bogle.

I think we can all agree that our presence in this division is due to sustained under investment in the playing staff over many years. In my opinion it is only investment in some decent players that will get us out it. That seems to me to be the message looking back over the last forty years.

I understand the arguments about sustainability, but unless we invest in good players all we are going to sustain is our position in the 5th tier.  Sustainability come through success on the pitch, which brings in higher crowds and more commercial income.

I'm afraid that relying on  free transfers all the time will probably have the same results as it has for the last few decades.
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WOZOFGRIMSBY
December 29, 2021, 1:22pm

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Who’d be a chairman eh!?!?

Or custodian.


Don’t they get some form of revenue from Bristol Bears rugby?


He’s one of our loans
He’s one of our loans
Harvey Cartwright
He’s one of our loans
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GollyGTFC
December 29, 2021, 5:26pm

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Quoted from RonMariner
No normal business would run at such ridiculous and deliberate loss making levels. I cant see any well run club with balanced outgoings ever being able to compete in the championship.

It filters down to our level too. Three of our rivals are fielding £250k strikers. They are all currently above us. But that is who we are competing against. But the sad fact is that, without going crazy, if you want to be successful, you really have no choice but to invest to some extent.

We have been promoted just twice in the last forty years. In 1998 it was as a result of spending around £1million to bring Groves, Donovan, and Burnett to the club.  In 2016 it was after we spent £50k on Bogle.

I think we can all agree that our presence in this division is due to sustained under investment in the playing staff over many years. In my opinion it is only investment in some decent players that will get us out it. That seems to me to be the message looking back over the last forty years.

I understand the arguments about sustainability, but unless we invest in good players all we are going to sustain is our position in the 5th tier.  Sustainability come through success on the pitch, which brings in higher crowds and more commercial income.

I'm afraid that relying on  free transfers all the time will probably have the same results as it has for the last few decades.


The Championship is completely ruined by parachute payments. A freshly relegated Premier League club receives around £45m in their first season after relegation. The Championship clubs not in receipt of parchute payments receive a PL solidarity payment of just under £5m. How on earth can clubs not in receipt of parachute payments compete when they start the season £40m down on newly relegated clubs, over £30m down on clubs relegated the season before that & £12m down on clubs relegated the year before that.

The only way is for owners to fund huge losses to try and compete with those clubs with the massive financial advantage of parachute payments.

Last season Watford & Norwich were promoted straight back up after receiving a year 1 parachute payment. The season before Fulham were promoted with a year 1 parachute payment & West Brom were promoted with a year 2 parachute payment.

This season there are 5 clubs in the Championship receiving a parachute payment...
Bournemouth (currently 1st) - year 2 payment (approx £36m)
Fulham (currently 2nd) - year 1 payment (approx £45m)
West Brom (currently 4th) - year 1 payment (approx £45m)
Huddersfield (currently 6th) - year 3 payment (approx £16m)
Sheff Utd (currently 11th) - year 1 payment (approx £45m)

And there you have it. The clubs receiving parachute payments all doing well- 4 in the promotion or play-off zone and the other in the top half with games in hand to get into the play-offs.

5 clubs receive a total of around £187m in parachute payments and the other 19 clubs in the Championship receiving just under £95m between them).

How on earth can any ambitious club such as Bristol City compete and deliver good financial results?
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HerveJosse
December 29, 2021, 7:58pm
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Quoted from GollyGTFC


The Championship is completely ruined by parachute payments. A freshly relegated Premier League club receives around £45m in their first season after relegation. The Championship clubs not in receipt of parchute payments receive a PL solidarity payment of just under £5m. How on earth can clubs not in receipt of parachute payments compete when they start the season £40m down on newly relegated clubs, over £30m down on clubs relegated the season before that & £12m down on clubs relegated the year before that.

The only way is for owners to fund huge losses to try and compete with those clubs with the massive financial advantage of parachute payments.

Last season Watford & Norwich were promoted straight back up after receiving a year 1 parachute payment. The season before Fulham were promoted with a year 1 parachute payment & West Brom were promoted with a year 2 parachute payment.

This season there are 5 clubs in the Championship receiving a parachute payment...
Bournemouth (currently 1st) - year 2 payment (approx £36m)
Fulham (currently 2nd) - year 1 payment (approx £45m)
West Brom (currently 4th) - year 1 payment (approx £45m)
Huddersfield (currently 6th) - year 3 payment (approx £16m)
Sheff Utd (currently 11th) - year 1 payment (approx £45m)

And there you have it. The clubs receiving parachute payments all doing well- 4 in the promotion or play-off zone and the other in the top half with games in hand to get into the play-offs.

5 clubs receive a total of around £187m in parachute payments and the other 19 clubs in the Championship receiving just under £95m between them).

How on earth can any ambitious club such as Bristol City compete and deliver good financial results?


Most of the money from parachute payments goes to funding contracts and outstanding transfer fee instalments on players signed in a failed attempt to maintain a Premier League place. Without this security  the bottom third of  the Premier League would not be able to complete at all and we would have a Premier League like France or Spain where only games between a small number of elite clubs matter and the rest could not compete. The football model most of us on here grew up with is long gone and while it is superficially unattractive we have the best two leagues in the world in terms of competitive product as a result so don’t knock it . Equally any attempt to draw any learning from it for 4th and 5th tier teams is pointless irs a different game now.In the long run the only way for football to balance the books is to reduce the obscene transfer of wealth from customers to  average players whether it be through entrance fees or tv subscriptions topped up on the way by owners with more money then they know what to do with.
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aldi_01
December 29, 2021, 8:15pm

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Quoted from HerveJosse


Most of the money from parachute payments goes to funding contracts and outstanding transfer fee instalments on players signed in a failed attempt to maintain a Premier League place. Without this security  the bottom third of  the Premier League would not be able to complete at all and we would have a Premier League like France or Spain where only games between a small number of elite clubs matter and the rest could not compete. The football model most of us on here grew up with is long gone and while it is superficially unattractive we have the best two leagues in the world in terms of competitive product as a result so don’t knock it . Equally any attempt to draw any learning from it for 4th and 5th tier teams is pointless irs a different game now.In the long run the only way for football to balance the books is to reduce the obscene transfer of wealth from customers to  average players whether it be through entrance fees or tv subscriptions topped up on the way by owners with more money then they know what to do with.


I’m not entirely sure we’re a million miles away from what you see in France or Spain anyway. Occasionally, you get a lower placed side beat a top club, the same happens here. In truth, outside of this country, much like the leagues you mention, nobody cares about Burnley v Norwich for instance, and in truth, neither do the premier league.

The fact that Bristol City even compete is testament to the desire and ambition. It may not be sustainable nor of sound business to just keep writing off significant losses but if we’re going to impose FFP correctly, you start at state owned clubs and those clubs who’s owners use the club to merely line their own pockets and asset strip (I know this isn’t strictly FFP, more an issue with fit and proper rules but you get my point.

Golly makes his point well and highlights that, in reality, we’ve already got a B team league or premier league two 2 with the championship as it is. If you throw clubs like Norwich in to the mix who will no doubt offer zero competition this season, come down, invest little, generate profit and a tidy sum for the owners and then ultimately go up after next season…I’m sure many a fan thinks it’s great but any Norwich fan saying they enjoy that uncompetitive season in the premier league every other year is a liar…


'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
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HerveJosse
December 29, 2021, 8:49pm
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Quoted from aldi_01


I’m not entirely sure we’re a million miles away from what you see in France or Spain anyway. Occasionally, you get a lower placed side beat a top club, the same happens here. In truth, outside of this country, much like the leagues you mention, nobody cares about Burnley v Norwich for instance, and in truth, neither do the premier league.

The fact that Bristol City even compete is testament to the desire and ambition. It may not be sustainable nor of sound business to just keep writing off significant losses but if we’re going to impose FFP correctly, you start at state owned clubs and those clubs who’s owners use the club to merely line their own pockets and asset strip (I know this isn’t strictly FFP, more an issue with fit and proper rules but you get my point.

Golly makes his point well and highlights that, in reality, we’ve already got a B team league or premier league two 2 with the championship as it is. If you throw clubs like Norwich in to the mix who will no doubt offer zero competition this season, come down, invest little, generate profit and a tidy sum for the owners and then ultimately go up after next season…I’m sure many a fan thinks it’s great but any Norwich fan saying they enjoy that uncompetitive season in the premier league every other year is a liar…


Other then possibly Blackpool I am not sure there is any evidence of owners milking this system for their own benefit. The reference to Norwich while easy to assume isn’t borne out by facts when there last two sets of filed accounts show a profit of £2m for their last season in tha premiership and a loss of £33m for the season before in the championship with no directors remuneration or dividends paid.
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GollyGTFC
December 29, 2021, 8:56pm

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Quoted from HerveJosse


Most of the money from parachute payments goes to funding contracts and outstanding transfer fee instalments on players signed in a failed attempt to maintain a Premier League place. Without this security  the bottom third of  the Premier League would not be able to complete at all and we would have a Premier League like France or Spain where only games between a small number of elite clubs matter and the rest could not compete. The football model most of us on here grew up with is long gone and while it is superficially unattractive we have the best two leagues in the world in terms of competitive product as a result so don’t knock it . Equally any attempt to draw any learning from it for 4th and 5th tier teams is pointless irs a different game now.In the long run the only way for football to balance the books is to reduce the obscene transfer of wealth from customers to  average players whether it be through entrance fees or tv subscriptions topped up on the way by owners with more money then they know what to do with.


Not true at all. The Championship is not competitive. The clubs in receipt of parachute payments have a massive advantage and have far more success than the other clubs. Norwich, West Brom & Fulham have accidentally developed a model of yoyo-ing between the 2 divisions and generally not attempting to be competitive in the PL whilst safe in the knowledge that they have 2 years guaranteed Parachute payments (3 if they stayed in the PL for a 2nd season) so that they can bounce back and start the cycle again.

A better solution would be to fund the entire English pyramid correctly so the cliff edges are removed that require huge parachute payments. It can't be right that Premier League clubs get 12 times more money than the majority of Championship clubs.

Championship clubs are rightly furious that Fulham can afford to pay a striker over £100,000 a week from their £36m parachute payment when his yearly wage (£5.5m) represents about 65% of the entire combined average TV money & Solidarity payment for the 19 clubs not receiving parachute payments. To put that in context Mitrovic is being paid more a week than Wycombe's entire weekly playing staff wage bill from last season in the Championship.

And an example of the way things are going in the Championship is that between seasons 2011-12 & 2016-17 the 18 promotion places were taken up by 9 clubs receiving parachute payments & 9 clubs not receiving them. In the 4 seasons since then (2017-18 to 2020-21) the 12 promotion places went to 8 clubs receiving parachute payments and just 4 not receiving them. And whilst we're only half way though this season it does seem highly likely at least 2 parachute payment clubs will be promoted this season too and possibly for the first time ever all 3 promotion places.
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GollyGTFC
December 29, 2021, 9:06pm

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Quoted from HerveJosse


Other then possibly Blackpool I am not sure there is any evidence of owners milking this system for their own benefit. The reference to Norwich while easy to assume isn’t borne out by facts when there last two sets of filed accounts show a profit of £2m for their last season in tha premiership and a loss of £33m for the season before in the championship with no directors remuneration or dividends paid.


Norwich made a profit of £21.5m last season when they walked to promotion again despite them losing £30m of potential revenue because of COVID and despite investing £5m in work on Carrow Road & their training ground. They are also owed £54 by other football clubs of which half is due this current season. Norwich's finances are just fine even with their likely relegation this season. They have invested mainly in young players with resale value.
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HerveJosse
December 29, 2021, 9:07pm
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Quoted from GollyGTFC


Not true at all. The Championship is not competitive. The clubs in receipt of parachute payments have a massive advantage and have far more success than the other clubs. Norwich, West Brom & Fulham have accidentally developed a model of yoyo-ing between the 2 divisions and generally not attempting to be competitive in the PL whilst safe in the knowledge that they have 2 years guaranteed Parachute payments (3 if they stayed in the PL for a 2nd season) so that they can bounce back and start the cycle again.

A better solution would be to fund the entire English pyramid correctly so the cliff edges are removed that require huge parachute payments. It can't be right that Premier League clubs get 12 times more money than the majority of Championship clubs.

Championship clubs are rightly furious that Fulham can afford to pay a striker over £100,000 a week from their £36m parachute payment when his yearly wage (£5.5m) represents about 65% of the entire combined average TV money & Solidarity payment for the 19 clubs not receiving parachute payments. To put that in context Mitrovic is being paid more a week than Wycombe's entire weekly playing staff wage bill from last season in the Championship.

And an example of the way things are going in the Championship is that between seasons 2011-12 & 2016-17 the 18 promotion places were taken up by 9 clubs receiving parachute payments & 9 clubs not receiving them. In the 4 seasons since then (2017-18 to 2020-21) the 12 promotion places went to 8 clubs receiving parachute payments and just 4 not receiving them. And whilst we're only half way though this season it does seem highly likely at least 2 parachute payment clubs will be promoted this season too and possibly for the first time ever all 3 promotion places.


Competitive is not just about which teams finish in the first three each year it is about your 46 games a year and whether you are going to see a good game of football each week which either team can win  and if your team doesn’t turn up they are going to come a cropper. The fact that second tier football is watched by average crowds of twenty thousand  plus many times that of any other country speaks for itself .
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GollyGTFC
December 29, 2021, 9:18pm

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Quoted from HerveJosse


Competitive is not just about which teams finish in the first three each year it is about your 46 games a year and whether you are going to see a good game of football each week which either team can win  and if your team doesn’t turn up they are going to come a cropper. The fact that second tier football is watched by average crowds of twenty thousand  plus many times that of any other country speaks for itself .


Sorry, but if you have to lose £30m a season to compete on a level playing field then it's not competitive at all is it? And that's before the owners of AFC Bournemouth, Fulham & West Brom decide they are happy to lose money too and distort the competition even further.

You're getting competitive mixed up with it being entertaining.

When we successfully battled at that level (18 out of 23 seasons between 1980 & 2003) we could compete well enough to stay there and have occasional brushes with the top half of the table. Now even clubs getting 30,000+ crowds like Nottm Forest & Sheff Wed can't compete financially. The whole system is broken.
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HerveJosse
December 29, 2021, 9:21pm
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Quoted from GollyGTFC


Sorry, but if you have to lose £30m a season to compete on a level playing field then it's not competitive at all is it? And that's before the owners of AFC Bournemouth, Fulham & West Brom decide they are happy to lose money too and distort the competition even further.

You're getting competitive mixed up with it being entertaining.

When we successfully battled at that level (18 out of 23 seasons between 1980 & 2003) we could compete well enough to stay there and have occasional brushes with the top half of the table. Now even clubs getting 30,000+ crowds like Nottm Forest & Sheff Wed can't compete financially. The whole system is broken.

Your right my definition of competing is entertaining. How could it be entertaining if if it wasn’t competitive.
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HerveJosse
December 29, 2021, 9:27pm
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Quoted from GollyGTFC


Norwich made a profit of £21.5m last season when they walked to promotion again despite them losing £30m of potential revenue because of COVID and despite investing £5m in work on Carrow Road & their training ground. They are also owed £54 by other football clubs of which half is due this current season. Norwich's finances are just fine even with their likely relegation this season. They have invested mainly in young players with resale value.


Your comment would have been more balanced if you had mentioned there was an operating loss of £26m turned into a profit by three player sales  largely Ben Godfrey to Everton
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GollyGTFC
December 29, 2021, 10:15pm

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Quoted from HerveJosse


Your comment would have been more balanced if you had mentioned there was an operating loss of £26m turned into a profit by three player sales  largely Ben Godfrey to Everton


Are you seriously suggesting that Norwich intended to make a loss but just got lucky by selling players? That is the exact model they’ve used to turn themselves into a yo-yo club. Develop young players, give them a season on the PL and then sell them on and reinvest in more players with a resale value. It’s exactly how Norwich got themselves into a club that is not good enough for the PL but too good for the Championship.
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HerveJosse
December 29, 2021, 10:24pm
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Quoted from GollyGTFC


Are you seriously suggesting that Norwich intended to make a loss but just got lucky by selling players? That is the exact model they’ve used to turn themselves into a yo-yo club. Develop young players, give them a season on the PL and then sell them on and reinvest in more players with a resale value. It’s exactly how Norwich got themselves into a club that is not good enough for the PL but too good for the Championship.

You certainly seem to have it in for Norwich. You are not from Suffolk are you ? I am not sure what is wrong with the business model you take offence at . Perhaps you would prefer a provincial club from a low population area to wallow in obscurity which it is so easy for others to do.
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GollyGTFC
December 29, 2021, 10:36pm

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Quoted from HerveJosse

Your right my definition of competing is entertaining. How could it be entertaining if if it wasn’t competitive.


Well my definition of competitive is whether clubs can genuinely compete.

I just don’t think a league where 18-20 clubs having zero chance of automatic promotion before a ball is kicked is a truly competitive league however entertaining it is.

Since Blackpool the only genuine complete surprise promotion was Huddersfield.

The 90s provided Oldham, Swindon, Barnsley & Bradford as surprise packages. Clubs like that have no chance of competing now.
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GollyGTFC
December 29, 2021, 10:54pm

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Quoted from HerveJosse

You certainly seem to have it in for Norwich. You are not from Suffolk are you ? I am not sure what is wrong with the business model you take offence at . Perhaps you would prefer a provincial club from a low population area to wallow in obscurity which it is so easy for others to do.


I have no issue with Norwich. It was you complaining that they only made a profit because of player trading like that was some sort of obscenity.

Developing players to sell on is about the only way clubs can compete against parachute payments funded clubs. Brighton & Brentford have reached the PL using that strategy largely thanks to their excellent statistics based scouting. Google Brentford signing Vitaly Janelt from Bochum. Brentford had a better understanding about how good he was than Bochum did and they picked him up for next to nothing and he’s gone from hardly getting a start in 2.Bundesliga to being a regular starter in the Premier League and touted for a Germany call up.

What I do dislike is that the system is rigged so that clubs like Norwich, Fulham and West Brom have a huge financial advantage over their rivals by being repeat failures at a higher level and cashing in their parachute payments to distort what used to be the best league in English football.

If the system is fixed then the clubs who benefit from it will lose their advantage.
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Poojah
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Quoted from GollyGTFC


I have no issue with Norwich. It was you complaining that they only made a profit because of player trading like that was some sort of obscenity.

Developing players to sell on is about the only way clubs can compete against parachute payments funded clubs. Brighton & Brentford have reached the PL using that strategy largely thanks to their excellent statistics based scouting. Google Brentford signing Vitaly Janelt from Bochum. Brentford had a better understanding about how good he was than Bochum did and they picked him up for next to nothing and he’s gone from hardly getting a start in 2.Bundesliga to being a regular starter in the Premier League and touted for a Germany call up.

What I do dislike is that the system is rigged so that clubs like Norwich, Fulham and West Brom have a huge financial advantage over their rivals by being repeat failures at a higher level and cashing in their parachute payments to distort what used to be the best league in English football.

If the system is fixed then the clubs who benefit from it will lose their advantage.


Brentford’s recruitment strategy is impressive, no argument there, but they’ve still benefited from huge investment.

Brighton currently owe their owner almost half a billion pounds. Again, another formerly unfashionable club to admire, but money is the reason they went from the Withdean to the Amex and the Premier League.

To your earlier point, club’s rarely kick-on without inorganic investment these days.  


A smooth sea never made a skillful mariner.
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GollyGTFC
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Quoted from Poojah


Brentford’s recruitment strategy is impressive, no argument there, but they’ve still benefited from huge investment.

Brighton currently owe their owner almost half a billion pounds. Again, another formerly unfashionable club to admire, but money is the reason they went from the Withdean to the Amex and the Premier League.

To your earlier point, club’s rarely kick-on without inorganic investment these days.  


You do Brighton a huge disservice. Their owner was the original moneyball owner in English football. The guy is a genius and the Brentford owner is his biggest fan. Just because he's injected his cash as well as his expertise into Brighton it doesn't lessen the huge achievements he and they have made.

Is there any industry anywhere where you don't have to speculate to accumulate? Our greatest season since I've supported Town (1998/99) was funded on transfer fees received rather than gate receipts or TV money. Does that make anyone feel like the season was tainted?
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Poojah
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Quoted from GollyGTFC


You do Brighton a huge disservice. Their owner was the original moneyball owner in English football. The guy is a genius and the Brentford owner is his biggest fan. Just because he's injected his cash as well as his expertise into Brighton it doesn't lessen the huge achievements he and they have made.

Is there any industry anywhere where you don't have to speculate to accumulate? Our greatest season since I've supported Town (1998/99) was funded on transfer fees received rather than gate receipts or TV money. Does that make anyone feel like the season was tainted?


I’m pretty familiar with Brighton’s story as it happens. Brighton, like Brentford (and Bournemouth) have recruited very intelligently but their success wouldn’t have been possible without a staggering injection of cash from their owner, Tony Bloom.

Don’t get me wrong, as owners go I think what Bloom has done for Brighton is absolutely brilliant. He’s a local boy, a life-long fan and part of a family that has been involved with the club for decades. He also happens to be extremely wealthy, and that bit’s the key.

What this whole thread really touches on the challenges our current owners face. Hand on heart, I believe John Fenty wanted the best for GTFC. For a man with such overt ego, it would have been of great personal significance to have been revered by the town for positively transforming the football club.

Sadly there were two fundamental problems as I see it. One, he lacked the vision and / or the talent to create positive, transformative change, and two, he took control of the club in financially uncertain conditions. The club he took over needed managing austerily in order to survive, but once those financial black clouds had dissipated he could never get out of that mode of thinking. The notion of speculating to accumulate simply wasn’t in his book of tricks; he could only manage the club within strict and safe financial parameters.

In terms of finances, there can be few clubs that have been as stable as us over the past decade or so, rarely making a substantial loss or turning a noticeable profit. But there’s a reason such stability isn’t seen as a footballing case study; and that’s because the policies employed by the club during that period we’re so flagrantly risk-averse that they suffocated the life out of the club and its fan base.

And so this is what the new owners have inherited. A club at least a decade behind the times in terms of infrastructure and in a division which at this time is dominated by clubs with disproportionately large and unprecedented levels of wealth for this tier in the football pyramid.

We’ve already seen that improvements in facilities and match day experience can improve crowds (increasing our disposable income in turn), but without meaningful success on the pitch this is unlikely to be totally sustainable. The gate against Halifax on Monday will be the lowest of the season so far, and whilst there will be lots of mitigating reasons for this, results are by far the most significant.

My worry, given how challenging this league can be to get out of, is that without major, inorganic investment in the playing side we will struggle to achieve the momentum needed to ascend to our natural potential in the modern football environment.

This isn’t a criticism of our new owners - to the contrary I think everything they’ve done so far has been very positive and long overdue. The issue is that we find ourselves in this condition and in this division in the first place - the blame for which sits firmly with JSF and his cronies.

The harsh reality though is that money wins football matches. We can see this at every level of the game, not least the National League.

Our promotion chances this season already look shot; if we did make the play-offs would anyone realistically fancy us to overcome at least one of Wrexham, Stockport or Chesterfield (not to mention any of the other contenders)? So what about next season? And the one after that if we don’t go up?

I just feel the owners have major headache on their hands with the club having failed to avoid relegation last season, and the state of football (and in particular the National League) in general. Maybe things will change when Fenty has his money back, who knows, but I can’t help but think that we need to at least temporarily abandon the underlying strategy of break even and sustainability if we we are to crack on and begin to realise our potential as a club.

TLDR? The club has been subject to such massive under-investment over the last decade and a half that the new owners are going to have to underwrite an equivalent over-investment over the next few years to get us back on track.


A smooth sea never made a skillful mariner.
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GollyGTFC
December 30, 2021, 6:25pm

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Quoted from Poojah


I’m pretty familiar with Brighton’s story as it happens. Brighton, like Brentford (and Bournemouth) have recruited very intelligently but their success wouldn’t have been possible without a staggering injection of cash from their owner, Tony Bloom.

Don’t get me wrong, as owners go I think what Bloom has done for Brighton is absolutely brilliant. He’s a local boy, a life-long fan and part of a family that has been involved with the club for decades. He also happens to be extremely wealthy, and that bit’s the key.

What this whole thread really touches on the challenges our current owners face. Hand on heart, I believe John Fenty wanted the best for GTFC. For a man with such overt ego, it would have been of great personal significance to have been revered by the town for positively transforming the football club.

Sadly there were two fundamental problems as I see it. One, he lacked the vision and / or the talent to create positive, transformative change, and two, he took control of the club in financially uncertain conditions. The club he took over needed managing austerily in order to survive, but once those financial black clouds had dissipated he could never get out of that mode of thinking. The notion of speculating to accumulate simply wasn’t in his book of tricks; he could only manage the club within strict and safe financial parameters.

In terms of finances, there can be few clubs that have been as stable as us over the past decade or so, rarely making a substantial loss or turning a noticeable profit. But there’s a reason such stability isn’t seen as a footballing case study; and that’s because the policies employed by the club during that period we’re so flagrantly risk-averse that they suffocated the life out of the club and its fan base.

And so this is what the new owners have inherited. A club at least a decade behind the times in terms of infrastructure and in a division which at this time is dominated by clubs with disproportionately large and unprecedented levels of wealth for this tier in the football pyramid.

We’ve already seen that improvements in facilities and match day experience can improve crowds (increasing our disposable income in turn), but without meaningful success on the pitch this is unlikely to be totally sustainable. The gate against Halifax on Monday will be the lowest of the season so far, and whilst there will be lots of mitigating reasons for this, results are by far the most significant.

My worry, given how challenging this league can be to get out of, is that without major, inorganic investment in the playing side we will struggle to achieve the momentum needed to ascend to our natural potential in the modern football environment.

This isn’t a criticism of our new owners - to the contrary I think everything they’ve done so far has been very positive and long overdue. The issue is that we find ourselves in this condition and in this division in the first place - the blame for which sits firmly with JSF and his cronies.

The harsh reality though is that money wins football matches. We can see this at every level of the game, not least the National League.

Our promotion chances this season already look shot; if we did make the play-offs would anyone realistically fancy us to overcome at least one of Wrexham, Stockport or Chesterfield (not to mention any of the other contenders)? So what about next season? And the one after that if we don’t go up?

I just feel the owners have major headache on their hands with the club having failed to avoid relegation last season, and the state of football (and in particular the National League) in general. Maybe things will change when Fenty has his money back, who knows, but I can’t help but think that we need to at least temporarily abandon the underlying strategy of break even and sustainability if we we are to crack on and begin to realise our potential as a club.

TLDR? The club has been subject to such massive under-investment over the last decade and a half that the new owners are going to have to underwrite an equivalent over-investment over the next few years to get us back on track.


Not getting promoted wouldn't be a disaster this season. But if Bromley won the league & someone like Halifax or Boreham Wood won the play-offs then I would rate that as catastrophic because it would make next season even tougher.

Ideally we want Wrexham and one of Stockport or Chesterfield to be promoted.
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pen penfras
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Quoted from Poojah


TLDR? The club has been subject to such massive under-investment over the last decade and a half that the new owners are going to have to underwrite an equivalent over-investment over the next few years to get us back on track.


If they were going to do that, why wouldn't they have just paid Fenty off immediately? The loan money will barely scratch the sides of what's needed.

Maybe they had the foresight to do it this way and keep the blame on Fenty if things didn't go right. But more likely, they aren't going to be putting the sort of money in that is needed to bring us into the 21st century and nobody else has been willing to either.
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pen penfras
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Quoted from GollyGTFC


Not getting promoted wouldn't be a disaster this season. But if Bromley won the league & someone like Halifax or Boreham Wood won the play-offs then I would rate that as catastrophic because it would make next season even tougher.

Ideally we want Wrexham and one of Stockport or Chesterfield to be promoted.


Going up after relegation was a big ask, but if we couldn't push the boat out with a large balance sheet, parachute payments and all the optimism, then it's only going to get harder.
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KingstonMariner
December 30, 2021, 7:42pm
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Quoted from pen penfras


Going up after relegation was a big ask, but if we couldn't push the boat out with a large balance sheet, parachute payments and all the optimism, then it's only going to get harder.


How do you know about the balance sheet? The accounts haven’t been published yet. And even if we had cash in the bank, it is only one side of the equation.


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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Quoted from pen penfras


If they were going to do that, why wouldn't they have just paid Fenty off immediately? The loan money will barely scratch the sides of what's needed.

Maybe they had the foresight to do it this way and keep the blame on Fenty if things didn't go right. But more likely, they aren't going to be putting the sort of money in that is needed to bring us into the 21st century and nobody else has been willing to either.


You can’t say that on here Pen😜
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jamesgtfc
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I don't know the terms of the repayment schedule other than its for 3 years and all transfer income goes towards it until it's paid but the guys stumped up the best part of £1m I'm cash to own the club which is a lot of money for most people.

I imagine the repayment schedule was also an insurance policy against anything untoward that they wouldn't discover until they were through the door.
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RonMariner
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Relegation last season was indeed a disaster and I can't for the life of me understand why we didn't seriously splash the cash to avoid it. Bradford did, signing 13 players in January are climbing well away from danger.

Fenty had nothing to lose. The sale of the club was underway and any additional capital put in as loans would be repaid within three years anyway.

I saw some posts on here that suggest that we had £800k in the bank at the end of the season. I have no idea if that is accurate, but it it was true then the club are bigger fools than I thought. Talk about false economy.

We will lose  hundreds of thousands as a result of being in the conference again and will have to spend big if we ever want top get out of it.    
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Quoted from RonMariner
Relegation last season was indeed a disaster and I can't for the life of me understand why we didn't seriously splash the cash to avoid it. Bradford did, signing 13 players in January are climbing well away from danger.

Fenty had nothing to lose. The sale of the club was underway and any additional capital put in as loans would be repaid within three years anyway.

I saw some posts on here that suggest that we had £800k in the bank at the end of the season. I have no idea if that is accurate, but it it was true then the club are bigger fools than I thought. Talk about false economy.

We will lose  hundreds of thousands as a result of being in the conference again and will have to spend big if we ever want top get out of it.    


Where were you, I thought we signed 13 players last January having brought back Hurst to keep us up.
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RonMariner
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Quoted from GibMariner


Where were you, I thought we signed 13 players last January having brought back Hurst to keep us up.


The difference is that they signed some quality players….
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Quoted from RonMariner


The difference is that they signed some quality players….


Another difference, too, in that we were a very unattractive proposition at the time, probably the least attractive of all 92 league clubs.

That aside, we did actually make some decent signings; we just made too many in total. Eastwood, Menayese, Habergham, Coke and Matete all made positive and necessary differences, and had we not spunked good money on the likes of Bunney, Lamy, Payne, Adams and El Mizouni and gone big on maybe just another two, more expensive players then we may just have had enough to stay up.

Hurst tinkered a little too much in the early stages and it ultimately took us too long to get going, but it’s all easy as fúck in hindsight isn’t it?


A smooth sea never made a skillful mariner.
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Quoted from Poojah


Another difference, too, in that we were a very unattractive proposition at the time, probably the least attractive of all 92 league clubs.

That aside, we did actually make some decent signings; we just made too many in total. Eastwood, Menayese, Habergham, Coke and Matete all made positive and necessary differences, and had we not spunked good money on the likes of Bunney, Lamy, Payne, Adams and El Mizouni and gone big on maybe just another two, more expensive players then we may just have had enough to stay up.

Hurst tinkered a little too much in the early stages and it ultimately took us too long to get going, but it’s all easy as fúck in hindsight isn’t it?


Perhaps the reason for the tinkering was figuring out just what some of them were here for because it certainly took wasn’t for their footballing prowess.

Had we sling a couple of results together earlier we may have stayed up but in truth, anyone with half a brain could see what was going to happen before we’d even played a second game.


'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
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