Plans for the future

It’s took a while but looks like we are finally getting a team that matches the quality of support this club has. A new stadium is not the priority but needs to be considered now more than ever as fans are attracted that previously have never been tempted to a Saturday of football.
On your travels what stadiums or facilities have impressed that would be the next step.Last Saturday we probably lost customers due to limited seats, restricted views, seats open to the elements, limited bar facilities with lack of toilets etc.
For me, if were looking to progress to the divisions above we need to be able to capitalise on the potential this club has,but keep away from the stale Doncaster or Scunny  style design of equal stands, and aim  more towards Rotherham’s New York that gives one larger home stand with a volume of noise with the added capability of the revenue of 4000 away fans such as Boro,Yorkshire clubs etc.

Lets just focus on getting out this league for the time being

Agreed RE: Rotherham having a great example of a new Stadium  . In an ideal world, with money as no object, we’d find a way of buying out local residents to expand and modernise BP. As the new owners said, we don’t need a new stadium right now, but I’d like to imagine they’ve got thoughts about it for 5 or so years down the line if our fortunes change. For now, I think it’s a great idea to fill the corners, either those green seats or some form of standing, just a way of being able to have all sides of the ground filled when need be. If, later on, We’re higher up the league system and need a new stadium, then as long as it’s somewhat unique to us and not generic I’d be happy

Quoted from Grim up north

It’s took a while but looks like we are finally getting a team that matches the quality of support this club has. A new stadium is not the priority but needs to be considered now more than ever as fans are attracted that previously have never been tempted to a Saturday of football.
On your travels what stadiums or facilities have impressed that would be the next step.Last Saturday we probably lost customers due to limited seats, restricted views, seats open to the elements, limited bar facilities with lack of toilets etc.
For me, if were looking to progress to the divisions above we need to be able to capitalise on the potential this club has,but keep away from the stale Doncaster or Scunny  style design of equal stands, and aim  more towards Rotherham’s New York that gives one larger home stand with a volume of noise with the added capability of the revenue of 4000 away fans such as Boro,Yorkshire clubs etc.

Like you say it’s not the priority, getting out of the National League is. One thing I do agree with you is that we are losing some revenue as catering and refreshments are still a challenge to access at times but that’s not a scenario that’s is unique to GTFC and is be amazed if that stopped people coming to games.

Do we need better? Yes of course but there are other pressing needs before relocating takes up anyone’s bandwidth.

I’ve been a regular since the 70’s and grew up in the shadow of Blundell Park so would love to see if developed as it’s packed with history, but just looking at recent times and people at work going for the first time , taking family and spending £80 on shirts etc, do we need to be looking at capturing the current feel good factor and running with it. I get the team takes priority but do we really want to miss a trick here.

they are doing as much as they can - they've only had 5 home games, and the first 2 were 'only' 5000.
Immediately they saw a tick up in sales they opened the Osmond. And the fact that the Ossie has still got a lot of spare capacity shows that we are not selling out,as there are still several hundred seats available

ps rather than missing a trick they've improved the food, the drinks, merchandise, the ticketing & the entire atmosphere. So much so that my guestimate is that they are c£150,000 up on their home crowd budget (and with Yeovil and Notts Co coming up that it will ony increase)

Quoted from forza ivano

they are doing as much as they can - they've only had 5 home games, and the first 2 were 'only' 5000.
Immediately they saw a tick up in sales they opened the Osmond. And the fact that the Ossie has still got a lot of spare capacity shows that we are not selling out,as there are still several hundred seats available

ps rather than missing a trick they've improved the food, the drinks, merchandise, the ticketing & the entire atmosphere. So much so that my guestimate is that they are c£150,000 up on their home crowd budget (and with Yeovil and Notts Co coming up that it will ony increase)

I’m not talking if the great work done in such a short time, more what can be done to move on from this and snowball the feel good factor around the town at the minute. The fact that we’re selling away end tickets and having just restricted and single seats left in the home ends in such a short space of time shows the potential.

If it does get to the point where we are selling out consistently maybe they would look at putting seats in the corner of the main/osmond. Longer term if we are set to stay at BP i think replacing the roof of the main and Osmond with a roof that doesn't require massive obscuring supports would be nice. pipedream stuff I know but if the questions being asked thats my answer

Looks like we've got a while yet before we really sell out all available seats. Most sets of away fans can be accommodated in the corner of the Osmond. Even in League 2.

All that space need so be consistently full before space really becomes a problem.

it's early days yet.

Quoted from Grim up north

It’s took a while but looks like we are finally......

For me this is a good example of forward thinking. No need to be down on someone for doing this and telling them that we should focus on getting out of the league, that goes without saying and other than going to matches, we don't have a great deal of input. This wider ranging club development, however is a different thing; we can contribute, we should; ideas, however fanciful are the lifeblood of  development and growth. I applaud you, Mr Grim, keep going

While I agree a new ground would be nice, 1878 said it was not one of their priorities. Getting out of this league is. So far 1878 have done what they said, improve Cheapside facilities, the pitch at BP, etc.

A new ground has been discussed this summer on a different thread. The only way I can see it moving up the agenda for 1878 is that if there is a problem with the Safety certificate. To the best of my knowledge the next major project for the club is a new training ground. 1878 are building a new club structure on a sound basis with the team coming first.

At the moment they are ticking all the boxes they created and until BP is a constant sell out then I think we may have to wait a few years for the new ground. A new ground is going to cost millions and 1878 are not going to run the club into that sort of debt, unless new streams of cash are forthcoming.

We will just have to be patient.

If we can get 6000 in non league with barely any visiting fans then we can get double that in the championship , we need a new  bigger ground

I know the new owners have said a new ground isn’t a priority, and I agree but, I’d imagine they’re still exploring it as a possibility, not so much for increased capacity but for business reasons, increased atmosphere and match day experience. Unlike the previous idiot in charge, this isn’t their only goal and they won’t be spunking thousands of pounds of club money on it…remember, it’s not about them…

We seem to have an obsession with putting extra seating in, there’s no need. We aren’t officially selling out, we’re just getting consistently high gates but every game there’s been 2000 empty seats, why waste money putting in seats few will want to sit in?

I think the key thing that has changed is the atmosphere around the place, it’s a joy to go to BP at the minute, and that’s not just because some virus kept us locked in for a year or so. The fans are positive, the football (at the minute, we know it’ll get tough) is great and there’s a feel good factor. I think now the majority of folk aren’t arsed about Covid and people are leading normal lives again it’ll easier to spread that feel good factor across the town…

I’d argue the only blip so far is Fenty once again embarrassing himself on here and people actually shaking his hand…

I think a big problem is parking facilities at B.P.  I have given this serious thought and my "gang" have had numerous meetings to discuss. The only feasible solution we could come up with is to ban resident parking down the side streets on Saturday afternoons and Tuesday evenings when Town are at home. Obviously those attending the match could be given permits.   We have to get our priorities right.

Tuesday nights we could use the ramsdams car park sure our old friend Dudley would help us now

Strange as it may seem, i still reckon Tom Shutes has a part to play in this, looking forward to the next episode

Quoted from dicko995

Strange as it may seem, i still reckon Tom Shutes has a part to play in this, looking forward to the next episode

I think Tom has well and truly burned his bridges.

I'm so excited and enthused by the start to this season, my number one priority is how do we keep it going so we can maintain current form and build on the returning fans.
After 20 years of life on the hamsters wheel, just scraping by and being grateful for survival, any talk of the championship and a new ground is incredibly premature.
Lets dream about league 2 first and hope PH and the boys can keep up the current form!!

Quoted from buckstown

I'm so excited and enthused by the start to this season, my number one priority is how do we keep it going so we can maintain current form and build on the returning fans.
After 20 years of life on the hamsters wheel, just scraping by and being grateful for survival, any talk of the championship and a new ground is incredibly premature.
Lets dream about league 2 first and hope PH and the boys can keep up the current form!!

When we do get promoted we are in a much better place. A few players are probably nothing more than squad players in decent League 2 teams but the core of our squad I believe is good enough to compete at the right end of League 2.

Don't forget that Hurst had both hands tied behind his back but still left us in or around the play-off positions so imagine what he can do if our top scorer isn't being offered a worse deal than 6 months previously...

Quoted from grimps

If we can get 6000 in non league with barely any visiting fans then we can get double that in the championship , we need a new  bigger ground

Or.....a business model based on your income......currently I would think the gate receipts  are up on any projected figures. That gives the board confidence in their own plans and helps with future  budgets and spend.
Until we consistently and completely sell out BP there is no need  for extra seats, new ground etc.
Not sure what the League rules are regards allocation of seating  for away support but we could  have the option of segregating parts of the Osmond further to make a smaller "away" end increasing the home option. Just because away teams could bring 1500 doesnt mean we have to accommodate them all  if we sell 7/8 k on our own.
Its early days and we are riding the high, the board have reacted,  opening the Osmond and the Directors box to accommodate the interest.  
There is also something of a fever associated with the "last few"  tickets remaining , it stirs interest...makes people fear missing out....which is such a refreshing change to people almost going out of "duty"

Quoted from jamesgtfc

I think Tom has well and truly burned his bridges.

I think without the 'tyre kicker' Tom Shutes we may never have got Andrew and Jason. Town owe him a massive amount.

Turning the Osmond into a home stand adds 1800 to the home capacity if needed. Save for three or four games, away supporters can be accommodated in the enclosed corner. So it’s only when home demand exceeds 8000 tickets that we have a problem.

We still need to find £1million to pay off Fenty so it will probably be another two years before a larger stadium upgrade is on the cards.

If we can become a competitive league club in future maybe we can revisit the idea. I'm not keen on going back to how much money was wasted on trying to be the guy to deliver a new stadium as we had under Fenty, he was only really able to do that because people cling to the idea of it so much. I think we have one of the better grounds for the level we are at, the last two away grounds didn't even have a roof on the away end.

Just look at Darlington, built a ridiculous stadium before they had any right or need for it, couldn't fill it then got relegated twice and went bankrupt. Also the head of the project was another egotistical chairman who had a habit of threatening fans who didn't agree with him. I like what the club are doing right now in thinking about practical things they can do now to improve the club while not focusing on pipedreams. They looked at what would bring more fans to the ground and what they can do to help the team improve/increase morale and implemented things with more planned for the future. I think we should have a new ground eventually but the timing needs to be right for it to be worthwhile, I don't think that timing is as a non league team or struggling in League 2.

What would be the rough cost of giving the Osmond open corner some form of roof shelter ?

That would give away supporters a bit of dryness without breaking the bank TOO much, and allow the Osmond to become Town's, giving louder support from both ends.

If the Directors then give their attention to better player facilities to entice them here, we have more chance of progress and making more consistent finances to continually improve each season.

Any new stadium needs to be financially useable for 6 days per week, with community and commercial facilities on board.

It needs a BIG national company to be a main player and a park and ride in place like York has to ALL of their out of city shopping venues.

It's not just local support, it would need out of town visitors as well, to cover 4 days of non football, but 2 of games, as well as off season use.

Our Directors will know the national chains that would need to commit to expand into a new stadium venture, including business seminars and maybe use for music concerts, all of which bring huge sums for places like Hull and Huddersfield on the national music circuit.

They will be looking over this years' finances and make adjustments to the match day experience as first moves to consolidate home attendance income.

At last, it seems that we have responsible custodians in place, putting players and fans both high on the list of importance.

The encouraging thing on all of this is that Andrew Petit has expertise in major property development and capex financing that come the time we’ll be well placed to move forward in the most sustainable way for the club long term. Gone are the days when a fish merchant who believes he’s good at everything dictates the direction on this.

“ It needs a BIG national company to be a main player ”

Does it? Does it matter if the money stacks up?

In some ways it would be more advantageous for a commercial partner to be a local business. Or locally owned. That way as well as jobs, the profits stay in town. Part of the 1878 mission is to create benefits for NE Lincs.

It takes many years to get a new stadium.  Waiting until you need one is not good.

Quoted from TownSNAFU5

It takes many years to get a new stadium.

About 122 years (and counting) by my maths.

Quoted from Grim up north

keep away from the stale Doncaster or Scunny style design of equal stands, and aim more towards Rotherham’s New York that gives one larger home stand

Equal stands keep the noise inside the ground and are better for atmosphere.

Doncaster's stadium has 20 rows of seats all the way around the pitch, giving a capacity of 15,000. Rotherham's main stand has 20 rows, but the opposite side only 14. As a consequence, the goal stand roofs have a weird step design. How is that better?

I suspect you are one of those people who think the matchday experience should involve lording it over noisy Pontoon oiks and gazing at the Humber.

Quoted from acko338

What would be the rough cost of giving the Osmond open corner some form of roof shelter ?

That would give away supporters a bit of dryness without breaking the bank TOO much, and allow the Osmond to become Town's, giving louder support from both ends.

If the Directors then give their attention to better player facilities to entice them here, we have more chance of progress and making more consistent finances to continually improve each season.

Any new stadium needs to be financially useable for 6 days per week, with community and commercial facilities on board.

It needs a BIG national company to be a main player and a park and ride in place like York has to ALL of their out of city shopping venues.

It's not just local support, it would need out of town visitors as well, to cover 4 days of non football, but 2 of games, as well as off season use.

Our Directors will know the national chains that would need to commit to expand into a new stadium venture, including business seminars and maybe use for music concerts, all of which bring huge sums for places like Hull and Huddersfield on the national music circuit.

They will be looking over this years' finances and make adjustments to the match day experience as first moves to consolidate home attendance income.

At last, it seems that we have responsible custodians in place, putting players and fans both high on the list of importance.

I think you mean Constitutional Corner, the corner of the Osmond (Osmond/Main) already has a roof.

Allying the new ground to a large retail development is unlikely to be sustainable, retail as we know it is dying. It would be better to ally it to a residential development.

Why do we need to put a roof on the away section? We've just got absolutely drowned in 2 away sections on consecutive Tuesday nights with no roofs and nobody's picketing the National League.

Quoted from dicko995

Strange as it may seem, i still reckon Tom Shutes has a part to play in this, looking forward to the next episode

This...

The guy is redeveloping the Ice House. As part of that he's going to have to sort out road access to the docks. That will save us a fortune as any new stadium at any location (Great Coates, Peaks Parkway, Freeman Street or wherever) will require a huge addition cost to sort out access and roads around the site. The new roundabout at the junction of Cambridge Road & Little Coates Road cost about £2 million didn't it?

We’re looking at this from the narrow perspective of how many people we can pack in to the space. The club also needs to consider safe access and egress, provision of decent toilets (already inadequate), other amenities like food and drink (by all accounts improved quality but question mark against capacity to serve). It’s not just about getting people in the ground, but getting them to come back time after time. While we’re winning and it’s exciting, that’s easier. When we have a lull, that’s when other factors come into people’s minds more.

Then there’s the question of other operational space needs at the club - football, maintenance and admin. I can’t imagine any of the current space for these is what it should be.

Getting someone in who understands all those competing demands, and can balance them off, is probably the first priority. I think the stadium manager post was advertised fairly recently?

Does anyone honestly think that 1878 aren't looking to move to a new stadium or significantly redraw Blundell Park?

Be it 3000, 4000, 5000....fans coming through the gates, Blundell Park is becoming less and less fit for purpose.  The developments over the summer are fantastic, but we can't stay as we are.  I fully appreciate that we're riding the crest of a wave at the minute and yet we're still not completely selling out, but the worst thing we can do is just sit back and enjoy the upturn in fans coming through the gates.

Romantic notions aside, there's nothing at Blundell Park that makes it appealing to anyone.  Views are crap, facilities are poor, it's more or less a no-go for disabled fans, you can't park close if you need to, there's no serious corporate facilities to offer.

Quoted from diehardmariner

Does anyone honestly think that 1878 aren't looking to move to a new stadium or significantly redraw Blundell Park?

Be it 3000, 4000, 5000....fans coming through the gates, Blundell Park is becoming less and less fit for purpose.  The developments over the summer are fantastic, but we can't stay as we are.  I fully appreciate that we're riding the crest of a wave at the minute and yet we're still not completely selling out, but the worst thing we can do is just sit back and enjoy the upturn in fans coming through the gates.

Romantic notions aside, there's nothing at Blundell Park that makes it appealing to anyone.  Views are crap, facilities are poor, it's more or less a no-go for disabled fans, you can't park close if you need to, there's no serious corporate facilities to offer.

You’re not supposed to point out that BP is a complete sh!those and that if you stayed we’d have to bulldoze all 4 stands and rebuild them all.

Quoted from forza ivano

they are doing as much as they can - they've only had 5 home games, and the first 2 were 'only' 5000.
Immediately they saw a tick up in sales they opened the Osmond. And the fact that the Ossie has still got a lot of spare capacity shows that we are not selling out,as there are still several hundred seats available

ps rather than missing a trick they've improved the food, the drinks, merchandise, the ticketing & the entire atmosphere. So much so that my guestimate is that they are c£150,000 up on their home crowd budget (and with Yeovil and Notts Co coming up that it will ony increase)

From what I've heard, that is a very conservative guesstimate.

Interesting development at Barnsley this week where they’ve had to close their equivalent of the Main Stand due to safety concerns. A reminder of how we are on borrowed time with BP in its current state. Had some good times in that stand at Barnsley when the seats were the away end

Quoted from BeijingMariner

For me this is a good example of forward thinking. No need to be down on someone for doing this and telling them that we should focus on getting out of the league, that goes without saying and other than going to matches, we don't have a great deal of input. This wider ranging club development, however is a different thing; we can contribute, we should; ideas, however fanciful are the lifeblood of  development and growth. I applaud you, Mr Grim, keep going

Cheers BM 😁. My thinking was that a new stadium is years in the planning and architects designs can often fall short of what the majority of us on here see as a good fit after years of watching Town at a variety of stadiums. For me Donny/ Scunny were soulless whereas the New York allows for a big volume of noise from the home fans , yet caters for a large income from big away followings along with not looking Darloesque when smaller crowds are in it. A good point by White shorts though with regards of acoustics - that’s the idea to voice opinions based on experiences following Town.

Quoted from grimps

If we can get 6000 in non league with barely any visiting fans then we can get double that in the championship , we need a new  bigger ground

This club is absolutely capable of five figure attendances. Not sure why despite BP being all seater a few years ago, the capacity was 10033, now considerably less yet I haven't seen any changes to the set up. I'm old enough to have been in the Pontoon with 17000 plus!

Not sure we averaged more than 7 or 8000 when we were in the equivalent of the championship .So cannot see gates doubling to 12000 .

Quoted from ginnywings

From what I've heard, that is a very conservative guesstimate.

Interesting. I've based my guestimate on a 4000 crowd budget

Quoted from Norseman

Not sure we averaged more than 7 or 8000 when we were in the equivalent of the championship .So cannot see gates doubling to 12000 .

Different times their seems to be a appetite for football generally nowadays

Quoted from dapperz fun pub

Different times their seems to be a appetite for football generally nowadays

Football is cool these days, plenty of folk getting involved that aren’t necessarily football nerds like a lot of us, add them Covid issue and I do think you’d see an up turn in attendances as we progressed through the leagues, or any team for that matter.

That said, town fans do sometimes have rose tinted specs when it comes to crowds…there’s no doubt that in the last ten years (of which only two season were truly any good) our away followings have increased but many of those seasons in the championship, we didn’t take masses to games. I’ve been to the likes of Birmingham and Wolves with town and we managed only 4/500…

I'm not sure why we would assume that doubling attendance figures isn't possible. I am sure Lincoln did something similar. And like any product or service, interest and and buy-in can happen at any point in time for a varied set of reasons. Ideas can and go from being totally unknown to globally known (Malcom Gladwell's Tipping Point has some great examples), from being a local relative success to a much bigger hitter in the commercial sense. in 2018 there were 159000 people in the NE Lincs area, basically Grimsby and Cleethorpes. If right now we are getting just shy of 6000 average attendance, that's 3.7% of the areas total population. To increase that to 11000 would mean attracting 6.9% of the total. Manchester has 553000 and Utd attract 57% on average, more than 10% and that is in competition with City and the other smaller clubs. So, numbers wise, I don't see why it isn't doable. Plus I also think that assuming we can't sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy. One constant in the world is change. and we have seen living proof of that in the last 6 months, long may it continue.

Not sure using a club like Man Utd or Liverpool helps the argument given thousands of their regular fans aren’t local to the area…

It’s obviously doable but the obsession with getting large crowds is a bit weird. I don’t really care if there’s three or three thousand, so long as the team are committed and the club has a plan…a plan is a start after the last 17 years of shite…

We’ve probably got about 12,000 people worldwide who would go to BP every home if they could. The problem being that they’re worldwide and the ones who do live in this country perhaps wouldn’t travel up, down across every other week. I might be look at it a bit pessimistically but I think 12,000 seater is about right for a new/redeveloped ground.

Quoted from LH

We’ve probably got about 12,000 people worldwide who would go to BP every home if they could. The problem being that they’re worldwide and the ones who do live in this country perhaps wouldn’t travel up, down across every other week. I might be look at it a bit pessimistically but I think 12,000 seater is about right for a new/redeveloped ground.

Yeah anything larger than 12000 ish would be wasteful and spoil the experience of going to most games. Notts have a 20000 seat stadium that's a mostly empty echo chamber most games, some of their fans complain about it spoiling the atmosphere, and they are a better supported club than us generally (at home anyway).

We need a modern 7 days a week earning stadium, with good match day facilities and good match day experience potential including food/refreshments and crowd acoustics. That stadium needs to be large enough for usbto Realistically grow, whilst not being too large to spoil the atmosphere or be so expensive that we can't afford a decent team to play in it. Adding thousands of empty seats will mean more money has to be spent unnecessarily on repayments that impact on the playing budget.

To early to be building a new ground based on our attendances at the minute. Things can change in a heartbeat…..let’s get some stability behind us and a promotion or two then assess. If Hursty is plucked away from us and the next manager isn’t up to it then things can go downhill very quickly….. UTM!!

We have to look forward with realistic ambition. It’s a tricky one as it needs to cater for the income of the good times and capitalise on large away followings Should we rightfully be looking at progressing past league two . It’s pointless looking at crowds the last time we were in the Championship as it was a low period of support for all clubs . I remember at the time Hull City being in League two and struggling to average much more than 2000 home fans.

Despite things going really well this season to date and the breath of fresh air the 1878 leadership has brought with them when you look at the cost involved bloody hell it feels like a long way off but from what I’ve seen of Jason & Andrew they have the know how but will need other partners to make it a reality.

Quoted from LH

We’ve probably got about 12,000 people worldwide who would go to BP every home if they could. The problem being that they’re worldwide and the ones who do live in this country perhaps wouldn’t travel up, down across every other week. I might be look at it a bit pessimistically but I think 12,000 seater is about right for a new/redeveloped ground.

I agreed with you until I saw 2 sets of similar figures for average attendances, :-

Our own fishy site   https://thefishy.co.uk/story.php?id=8382729

and for a better breakdown with season finishes, etc    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Grimsby_Town_F.C._seasons

When you look at the seasonal average for the last 20 years the best gate was about 6,500 per year, and 6,000+ per season happened twice. This season, and we're full of enthusiasm, is about 6,000 (https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/grimsby-town/attendances). In the last 50 years, we have only averaged 10,000+ in 4 seasons.

The reality of our location is that we have the North Sea on one side and 20/30 miles of fields on the other, neither of which bring in any supporters. Yes, I know some travel miles to our home games, as I did on many occasions when under 15,000 was a poor gate!

The realism of today will show that 7,000 will be a good gate, team winning, fine weather, and challenging for promotion. Even being as optimistic and enthusiastic as I am a 10,000 stadium would be more than adequate for our needs, based on current and past attendances. In 2019/20 season only 7 clubs in leagues 1 & 2 had attendances over 10,000 ( excluding Bradford ) so 10,000 max , or slightly less, would even do.

BP has served the club more than well over the decades and needs severe updating or we need a new stadium. The problem is, not so much where, but how to finance it on gates averaging 6,000 or less. A 3,000 gate will produce a team budget of about £1 million so it doesn't leave much to run the club and provide funds to pay for a new stadium, assuming we actually average 6,000.

£20 million has often been referred to as the magic number for a new stadium and, I seem to recall about half would come grants etc leaving the club to find £10 million in terms of hard cash. Think of Darlington, enough said. Redevelop BP, the club owns the land, so that is one less cost. Move the changing rooms to the Youngs Stand, as was the original idea, and replace the main stand, followed by the Osmond, and fill in the corners. It doesn't have to be done in one go and can be financed piecemeal as needed. Staying at BP would also mean there is no need for a car park as on-street has been a means for decades, and is only for 23/30 days a year.

When you consider all of this you can see why a new stadium is not a main priority for 1878. We will just have to be patient and see what they come up with. What we do know is that from their actions so far, we will not be told of pipe dreams or building a future on sand. The future home base of Town will be based on a secure affordable foundation.


UTM

Quoted from DB

IStaying at BP would also mean there is no need for a car park as on-street has been a means for decades, and is only for 23/30 days a year.

Not sure i would agree there. Parking is awful now with 5-6k people turning up (even when we were only getting 3-4k it was bad). If we were to regenerate BP I assume that regeneration would come with at least a small increase in capacity. Cant help but feel like we would benefit from a multi storey somewhere close by to the stadium to help with that and give a dedicated area for disabled parking too.

Surely, if the stadium remains where it is, alternative travel methods would be best explored and promoted. A multi storey isn’t the answer, we shouldn’t be encouraging folk to drive to the football, hence why out of town/edge of town stadiums are horrible…big car parks with breeze block stadia.

I’m not sure parking is that bad, more then people acruslly parking, seen someone flipping horror shows this season so far. Doesn’t help when people turn up at 2pm and expect to get parked down Blundell Ave…

Quoted from Oly1987

Not sure i would agree there. Parking is awful now with 5-6k people turning up (even when we were only getting 3-4k it was bad). If we were to regenerate BP I assume that regeneration would come with at least a small increase in capacity. Cant help but feel like we would benefit from a multi storey somewhere close by to the stadium to help with that and give a dedicated area for disabled parking too.

The parking problem would be an issue if BP's capacity was increased. Any stand developments which lead to increased capacity would have to have planning permission - that is a fact. One of the factors that would be looked at by the planners is how the increased fan numbers would impact local parking. It would not be sufficient to say that local on-street parking has been ok for 20 to 30 years so it should be ok now for increased numbers. Alternative means to the use of private cars to get to the ground should be encouraged if we are to remain at BP but that is not as simple as some think. Park and Ride has been suggested but where would the car park be? It wouldn't benefit NE Lincs fans as most of the area is already supported by numerous bus routes..

We should absolutely be finding alternative ways of getting people to football than by car, whether we stay at BP or move.

You don’t necessarily need massive car parks but out by the Laceby Bypass and off the A180 there’s space. Maybe something by the A16 too. Have the buses stop along the route, if you put enough on. Even if not everyone is within walking distance of the route it’d make a big difference. Besides, they could drive to park close to the route, which at least would cut down on the parking problem near BP.

Quoted from rancido

The parking problem would be an issue if BP's capacity was increased. Any stand developments which lead to increased capacity would have to have planning permission - that is a fact. One of the factors that would be looked at by the planners is how the increased fan numbers would impact local parking. It would not be sufficient to say that local on-street parking has been ok for 20 to 30 years so it should be ok now for increased numbers. Alternative means to the use of private cars to get to the ground should be encouraged if we are to remain at BP but that is not as simple as some think. Park and Ride has been suggested but where would the car park be? It wouldn't benefit NE Lincs fans as most of the area is already supported by numerous bus routes..

Of course we had deemed planning consent for a much bigger capacity pre-all seater. What happened in the last seasons of 10k plus crowds in the early 80s - I think we just parked further away and walked.

Yes, planning conditions will be much tighter on parking now. They'll need to be a sustainable transport plan for any significant increase in capacity at BP.

Park and ride at Great Coates - train + extra buses? Would need to be used for much more than match days to be viable - also residents revolting again?

If you look at videos of traffic around Grimsby in the 80’s, there are some on YouTube, you’ll be surprised how little traffic there is compared to now.

I think that, to a large extent answers the parking question.

I don't think we should be swayed by previous attendances in our quest to redevelop BP or move away.

There are lots of clubs that had tiny attendances till they got on an upward curve, and football had a renaissance more generally.

Swansea, Brighton, Hull, Rotherham, Lincoln, Doncaster, Brentford, Bournemouth, Luton, Blackpool, Reading, Barnsley, Wigan to name a few.

It is the potential that counts. We have had big crowds before, and we can have big crowds in the future but it needs a well run and well-funded club ( we seem to have that now) success on the field to get us started (we are underway with that) and the ability to match ambition with the realities of funding a new stadium or re-developing BP (Mr Pettit seems the man for that)

On the assumption that if the previous regime was still in charge we have added circa 3,000 fans already even in non-league,  we have a great base to start from. We (the owners) need to judge it just right - a capacity that is not too small to hold us back, nor too big to be a burden. Personally, I think a capacity of 13k or thereabouts would be about right, assuming we can get a promotion or two.  

A ground with a smaller capacity that is full or almost full is better than a ground that’s massive and is barely ever full…

Create a desire and need for a ticket…mafia and dodgy dealings to one side, ask a legit Juve fan (oxymoron I know). Best thing they ever did was build a stadium with a small capacity…

Quoted from LH

We’ve probably got about 12,000 people worldwide who would go to BP every home if they could. The problem being that they’re worldwide and the ones who do live in this country perhaps wouldn’t travel up, down across every other week. I might be look at it a bit pessimistically but I think 12,000 seater is about right for a new/redeveloped ground.

I think your figures are maybe accurate, but out of date, only by one year. Fenty era yes, but we're in a totally different era now. Our club is now being viewed through a different lens by the folk of NE Lincs in a few short months. Crowds are up, but I bet every single current attendee can still think of at least one other person who hasn't been to a game yet. I'd imagine a new stadium would lure many others in, as would rising up the leagues.

12k for the three home stands would be reasonable, say 4k behind the goal and 4k more down both sides. But you have to add 4k behind the other goal for away fans and additional home fan flexibility. Any reasonable stint in the Championship, cup ties, or bigger clubs continuing to fall into League One, it would pay for itself in no time.

The difference in cost of building a 12, 14 or a 16k capacity stadium and managing it is neither here nor there. so we have to build to a best case possible income scenario. Why build a stadium when there's still a possibility of locking people out? As a set of fans, we seem to have an inherent and irrational fear of empty seats, not selling out away allocations etc

A 12k stadium will mean a 9K home capacity, 2/3k up from where it is now. That's very litlle scope for growth for JS and AP to work with imho..

Quoted from Bigdog

I think your figures are maybe accurate, but out of date, only by one year. Fenty era yes, but we're in a totally different era now. Our club is now being viewed through a different lens by the folk of NE Lincs in a few short months. Crowds are up, but I bet every single poster on here can still think of at least one other person who hasn't been to a game yet. I'd imagine a new stadium would lure many others in, as would rising up the leagues.

12k for the three home stands would be reasonable, say 4k behind the goal and 4k more down both sides. But you have to add 4k behind the other goal for away fans and additional home fan flexibility. Any reasonable stint in the Championship, cup ties, or bigger clubs continuing to fall into League One, it would pay for itself in no time.

The difference in cost of building a 12, 14 or a 16k capacity stadium and managing it is neither here nor there. so we have to build to a best case possible income scenario. Why build a stadium when there's still a possibility of locking people out? As a set of fans, we seem to have an inherent and irrational fear of empty seats, not selling out away allocations etc

A 12k stadium will mean a 9K home capacity, 2/3k up from where it is now. That's very litlle scope for growth for JS and AP to work with imho..

A 12k capacity doesn't have to mean a 9k home capacity. It could be designed in aa way to be able to split the away end if required for more or less home capacity, just as the osmond manages now.

Very very few teams would be needing a 4k visiting capacity, even in the chpionship they wouldn't all need that.

The ground could also be designed so that if a greater capacity than 12k was ever needed (unlikely in my opinion) then it would allow an extra tier for a couple more k to be added.

Quoted from toontown

A 12k capacity doesn't have to mean a 9k home capacity. It could be designed in aa way to be able to split the away end if required for more or less home capacity, just as the osmond manages now.

Very very few teams would be needing a 4k visiting capacity, even in the chpionship they wouldn't all need that.

The ground could also be designed so that if a greater capacity than 12k was ever needed (unlikely in my opinion) then it would allow an extra tier for a couple more k to be added.

The difference in cost of building a 14/16k stadium compared to a 12k stadium is minimal. Probably much less than 5%. I don't know what drives your fear in all honesty. I don't understand why you're being so pernickety over 4k additional capacity ie potential income? We've got a board striving every day to get the best possible outcomes out of every possible opportunity with very little ammunition infrastructure wise. We're getting 6k home gates in the National League and you think that the maximum growth that can be achieved from this point over the next hundred years, the lifetime of a new stadium is 70% or so for any eventuality? 30k to our first trip to Wembley, home gates in the 70s and 80s pre Taylor Report and the Fenty era suggest otherwise..

Regarding building work, Bigdog is right. It's easier and cheaper to build over capacity from the off, than it is to add on later if needed.

My thinking is that it's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

Quoted from toontown

A 12k capacity doesn't have to mean a 9k home capacity. It could be designed in aa way to be able to split the away end if required for more or less home capacity, just as the osmond manages now.

Very very few teams would be needing a 4k visiting capacity, even in the chpionship they wouldn't all need that.

The ground could also be designed so that if a greater capacity than 12k was ever needed (unlikely in my opinion) then it would allow an extra tier for a couple more k to be added.

I could name at least four or five currently in League One who would have a good go at filling it if they were doing well..

talking of our support, and don't know how relevant t this is, but the subscribers to our Youtube channel is about to exceed 11,000. Which suggests to me that there is the potential to get even higher attendances than we are experiencing at present

We don't need to fill a 13/14k capacity stadium, but it is there for when we need it. Most clubs outside of the PL don't fill their stadiums, but a good league season or a cup run means much greater income. All things been equal, we should go for a decent capacity which will see us adequately provided for in the decades to come.

I’d say 12-14k would give enough for growth and if designed right could  look decent with smaller crowds during the rough times. It needs corners filled for acoustics but all the same size ie Donny doesn’t looks as impressive as the New York with a 2k less capacity as from the outside the big home side stand gives the appearance of a 25,000 seater. If the facilities were better, were it’s easy for all to get food, drink and toilet access both pre, post and half time plus entertainment to make it a family day out like at bigger stadia, I think it would be surprising what we could attract - after all it’s not like there’s rival entertainment in the town. That’s all without looking at what finances corporate packages would bring on match days and all year round.

Quoted from 24

I’d say 12-14k would give enough for growth and if designed right could  look decent with smaller crowds during the rough times. It needs corners filled for acoustics but all the same size ie Donny doesn’t looks as impressive as the New York with a 2k less capacity as from the outside the big home side stand gives the appearance of a 25,000 seater. If the facilities were better, were it’s easy for all to get food, drink and toilet access both pre, post and half time plus entertainment to make it a family day out like at bigger stadia, I think it would be surprising what we could attract - after all it’s not like there’s rival entertainment in the town. That’s all without looking at what finances corporate packages would bring on match days and all year round.

And there's the irrational fear of empty seats. 12k will be too small. Limit potential earnings because we don't want to look bad on TV if attendances drop.. Prepare for failure and not for success..

8k fans in a new 14/16k stadium with better acoustics will bring in more income and sound louder than 8k in BP today. We'd probably sell out 14/16k if we were doing well in League One against Sheff Wednesday, Portsmouth, Sunderland, Lincoln, Ipswich and if other teams like Bolton, Charlton, Plymouth, Oxford, Rotherham, Donny etc were doing well, they'd bring a fair few.

JS and AP have won over our floating fan base to become regular attendees again. Still much work to do on bringing those fans back who haven't been for a while and we're at the point already where we haven't got the capacity to do that, even in the National League.

No guarantees, but the way we're going on the pitch, League One might not be as far away as we'd normally think in past years..

Bigdog is absolutely right on this I think 16k would be a decent size that's 12k for the home allocation and 4k for the away, anything less is extremely unambitious, while maybe 20k is a bit excessive. There's a sweet spot we need to hit to give us a reasonable chance of progressing and growing without us sitting in an empty-ish bowl.

As for BP,  the redevelopment costs will be excessive on a constrained site and you'd imagine the planning constraints would be onerous to discharge. I don't think anything reasonably useful to us in the long term I.e the next 60-80 years could be done there.

It might not be seen by 1878 as a short term priority but we'll have to do something about this at some point, at the very least by the end of this decade I'd hope.

Quoted from Limerick Mariner

Of course we had deemed planning consent for a much bigger capacity pre-all seater. What happened in the last seasons of 10k plus crowds in the early 80s - I think we just parked further away and walked.

Yes, planning conditions will be much tighter on parking now. They'll need to be a sustainable transport plan for any significant increase in capacity at BP.

Park and ride at Great Coates - train + extra buses? Would need to be used for much more than match days to be viable - also residents revolting again?

You'd are correct in that when we had larger crowds in the 80's peoples did park further away and walk to the ground but why? Because the the available on-street got filled earlier. We now have more car ownership in them adjacent to side of streets which are just makes the parking space problem worse. Even back in the 90's when the club showed  a desire to develop BP the Council's preference was a ground move and they stated thus publicly.
Much is made of Park'n'Ride but where would it be sited and who would benefit. Anywhere on the A180 would only benefit visiting fans or those who live in the nearby villages or Immingham. Likewise the other roads you mentioned. Full the bulk of fans who live within them main part of NE Lincs ( excluding Immingham) then a Park'n'Ride would be of no benefit. Residents of Waltham, New Waltham, Humberstone, Scartho, Laceby Acres or the Wybers (where I live) would see no benefit as they  are all served by a bus service that gets them either into town or past the ground. Even Immingham has a bus service every half hour and a connection to them ground. The Park'n'Ride system onlyreally works for either a popular tourist town such as York or a big city - places where visitors are going to spend the whole day day there.

Quoted from rancido

You'd are correct in that when we had larger crowds in the 80's peoples did park further away and walk to the ground but why? Because the the available on-street got filled earlier. We now have more car ownership in them adjacent to side of streets which are just makes the parking space problem worse. Even back in the 90's when the club showed  a desire to develop BP the Council's preference was a ground move and they stated thus publicly.
Much is made of Park'n'Ride but where would it be sited and who would benefit. Anywhere on the A180 would only benefit visiting fans or those who live in the nearby villages or Immingham. Likewise the other roads you mentioned. Full the bulk of fans who live within them main part of NE Lincs ( excluding Immingham) then a Park'n'Ride would be of no benefit. Residents of Waltham, New Waltham, Humberstone, Scartho, Laceby Acres or the Wybers (where I live) would see no benefit as they  are all served by a bus service that gets them either into town or past the ground. Even Immingham has a bus service every half hour and a connection to them ground. The Park'n'Ride system onlyreally works for either a popular tourist town such as York or a big city - places where visitors are going to spend the whole day day there.

Predictive text has made a right mess of my post but I'm sure you get the gist!

In the 80’s heyday I used to get a lift in from Tetney with Roddy Wraith (top bloke) we used to park the knackered builders van at the end of the prom and walk along the sea wall. Only a bracing 15 min walk to the ground and a quick getaway after. I know it’s dogshit alley now but surely that’s an option, especially using Wonderland’s car park.

Quoted from Theimperialcoroner

In the 80’s heyday I used to get a lift in from Tetney with Roddy Wraith (top bloke) we used to park the knackered builders van at the end of the prom and walk along the sea wall. Only a bracing 15 min walk to the ground and a quick getaway after. I know it’s dogshit alley now but surely that’s an option, especially using Wonderland’s car park.

That's now an overnight motorhome stopover.

When I first started going, 1970, it was thought that 10% of local population was the norm, now I think due to lots of other things to do then 5% is about the average now.

Think some on here are being a bit picky. We will get what is available and affordable.  All I want is a nice ground, that I can sit, (or stand!) in comfort, stay dry and have nice facilities. Anything else is a bonus.

Park and ride : great concept in theory but, it limits people a fair bit. 100 people rushing to get on the first bus back when it’s a capacity of 80 leaves 20 pi55ed off people AND people in effect possibly leaving the game early. Why not encourage people to stay after the game for a ‘quick pint’ before heading home?

New ground : IMO a capacity of around 14/15k is about what is probably sensible. Id say you probably get 5% and 10% away support on average in league 2 & 1 respectively. There are not going to be that many bringing more than that and segregation has to be figured into any equation. I’d also say that away fans should be housed into a corner and make behind the goals home support only. I’d say, head over heart, it’s imperative that we move to a new ground. The main stand can’t have much more life in it and the facilities on offer (though improved greatly) are inadequate for the modern day football supporter. I wouldn’t want one of thos identikit stadiums either. Just a bit of something different to what’s around:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadion_Miejski_(Kielce)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadion,_Malmö#/media/File:Malmö_Stadion,_bygge_1.jpg

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aker_Stadion#


We must lose the potential to sell  circa 1000 seats at BP due to the fact they are restricted view. It doesn’t matter so much at this present level, but, thinking ahead, and using Lincoln as a guide, the feel good factor that is around at the moment is going to mean more and more people wanting to watch town.

As someone mentioned last week, they waited ages for a bus to come along that wasn’t full. Surely being in the ground early and not having to queue an age for a drink, bus etc is an ideal situation for all involved?  

You know Woz. It is possible to have more than one bus.

As an exile (living near Selby) it takes me just over an hour to drive to BP and park down one of the local streets, usually no further away than around the Tesco Express.
If I had to drive for an hour then get on a bus / park and ride it would add significant time to my overall journey to and from the game

Quoted from KingstonMariner

You know Woz. It is possible to have more than one bus.

😆probably not the best example

Quoted from lee65

As an exile (living near Selby) it takes me just over an hour to drive to BP and park down one of the local streets, usually no further away than around the Tesco Express.
If I had to drive for an hour then get on a bus / park and ride it would add significant time to my overall journey to and from the game

If the crowd was twice as large you’d have to park a lot further away

You don't have to use park and ride if you don't want to, you can still park near the ground.

I'm all for a new stadium but I do wonder where 16,000 attendances are going to come from. 2019/20 season only 14 clubs out of the 72 in the EFL averaged more than 16,000 gates! and 11 of them were in the championship.

I'm as positive and optimistic as the next but there's no in buying a new Roller if cannot run it. I did like the post about having a full small stadium creates a better atmosphere than a half empty large one.

Quoted from DB

I'm all for a new stadium but I do wonder where 16,000 attendances are going to come from. 2019/20 season only 14 clubs out of the 72 in the EFL averaged more than 16,000 gates! and 11 of them were in the championship.

I'm as positive and optimistic as the next but there's no in buying a new Roller if cannot run it. I did like the post about having a full small stadium creates a better atmosphere than a half empty large one.

This has always made more sense to me, yes we can talk about growth and being optimistic but also being realistic is important too.

I’m not saying build a stadium that only holds 12k, but nothing more than 15k, even then, I’d imagine that it’ll only ever be half full…that’s soul destroying to me. As a player it must be odd, yes the faculties are better for them but half empty must be bizarre…surely they’d rather a smaller ground that’s full more often…

Juve, frosinone, Sassuolo and Atalanta to some extent have all taken this approach…whereas once they’d have built large stadia for little purpose…

Bournemouth took this approach while they were in the lower reaches of the league,  "we never get more than 10,000".

If we climb up the league pyramid, then we start coming up to Yorkshire based teams who will bring several thousand. So we need to have an away end of say 2,500, maybe more. Playing those teams generates interest, so we could realistically get over 10,000, so a ground of 16,000 would end up being nearly full.

When planning a new ground do you look at the potential, or base it on what we are getting now, like Bournemouth did?

Quoted from mimma

Bournemouth took this approach while they were in the lower reaches of the league,  "we never get more than 10,000".

If we climb up the league pyramid, then we start coming up to Yorkshire based teams who will bring several thousand. So we need to have an away end of say 2,500, maybe more. Playing those teams generates interest, so we could realistically get over 10,000, so a ground of 16,000 would end up being nearly full.

When planning a new ground do you look at the potential, or base it on what we are getting now, like Bournemouth did?

Potential.

We don't currently fill BP, most clubs outside of the Premier League don't fill their grounds, but we can still have a great day out whilst having the capacity for thousands more when the need arises. That need will increase over time I am sure. It would also show us in a good light to potential players, and be a fantastic local facility. We are not talking of a white elephant like Darlington, but big enough to cater for all our needs and send a message we are a club on the up.

I don't mind if that is at BP or elsewhere, but no doubt the owners will let us know their intentions as the months go by.

Circa 15k feels about right to me. Allowing for big away followings and cup games without going overboard.
Then it's down to stadium design. One stand needs to be big enough to incorporate a sizable hospitality area underneath - at least 5k. If the upper wings of that stand are empty for the average home game that won't affect the atmosphere or have loads of pitch level empty seats for the players to run out to. 4k in the away end capable of splitting 50:50 and then 2 fairly low stands for the other two, including a safe standing home end that you want pretty full every week.

North East Lincolnshire has an approx population of 160,000.  As a population we're neighboured to the immediate south of us East Lindsey (140,0000) and West Lindsey (100,000)  To the immediate west we've got North Lincolnshire, with just over 170,000.

Fair enough West Lindsey borders the city limits of Lincoln and North Lincolnshire includes Scunthorpe.  But I firmly believe that the Wolds area, the East Coast up to Skeg, as far south as Market Rasen and as far west as Brigg should be GTFC territory.

That's a hell of a lot of people to go at.  I fully appreciate that Lincoln have made inroads into some of these areas and at present both they and Scunthorpe are higher than us in the league ladder.    But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be striving to grab people back and/or recruit new blood.  

5% of NEL is about 8,000.  But NEL is a poor area.  We need more and I wouldn't be too confident about guaranteeing 5% of an area where income is sparse and deprivation is high.  1% of those surrounding areas is about 4,000.   Then you've got exiles from the likes of Leeds, Sheffield, York....

As said earlier, it is a crest of a wave at the minute.  But it doesn't mean we should just sit back and relax.  The experience at BP is clearly an improved one from 18 months ago.  That's a stadium that's falling down with poor facilities.  Why shouldn't we think we can fill a much bigger purpose built stadium that's fit for all purposes?   Already acknowledged that disposable income is tight in NEL, but the more appealing the product is made then the more it becomes the essential way to spend money.  It overtakes nights out, it overtakes cinema trips, it overtakes a Sky TV package....

If we are going to move, I'd hate for us to be limited in 5 years time because we set our bar too low.  

I'm pretty sure we've got the right people in place to make sure any stadium is designed so it still feels atmospheric with 3,000 people in on a cold, dreary November night in a dead rubber of the Europa League Group games. 2029.

how many people have a 4 bedroom house with only 2 bedrooms used or similar?

What ever happened to Fans of the Future ?

Quoted from It Bites

What ever happened to Fans of the Future ?

A certain individual did all he could to destroy the initiative.

When I began watching Town we had gates of up to 26,000
and  never had a problem of parking our bikes.

So what's the problem ?

A new stadium doesn't have to be full to create an atmosphere, 10,000 Town fans, which is realistic, would still be able to create a good atmosphere

Sure you could build in design to a large stadium that meant 6000 home fans were still loud even if it was a 12000 seater stadium.

Keeping one area back from sale till it fills up maybe?

Stockport home end were decent, their ground wasn't full

Quoted from MarinerWY

Sure you could build in design to a large stadium that meant 6000 home fans were still loud even if it was a 12000 seater stadium.

Keeping one area back from sale till it fills up maybe?

Stockport home end were decent, their ground wasn't full

WTF

If we ever get a new stadium, just let fans sit where they want to sit, sing if they want to sing. Stadium, full, empty or half full..

Don't get this stupid obsession some of our fans have got with manipulating atmosphere or creating the illusion of a half-filled stadium looking full..

Thought this was a site for grown-ups, for god's sake..

Quoted from Bigdog

WTF

If we ever get a new stadium, just let fans sit where they want to sit, sing if they want to sing. Stadium, full, empty or half full..

Don't get this stupid obsession some of our fans have got with manipulating atmosphere or creating the illusion of a half-filled stadium looking full..

Thought this was a site for grown-ups, for god's sake..

For a club who’s attendances aren’t really anything to shout about, we don’t half obsess over them…

It's not all about current attendance levels though. A new stadium would have state of the art facilities which would improve the match day experience.  Better catering and bar facilities, decent bogs, more accessible club shops, better views all round, faster access in and out, and better access to car and coach parking.

It would presumably be part of an enabling development for other retail outlets including bars and restaurants, and would be a community resource that would be used a business conference center and potentially a live music venue.

Much though I love Blundell Park, and have spent some of the happiest hours of my life there, compared to more modern stadiums I have visited, it really does seen like a throwback to the 1970's, or earlier.

So I do think that a new stadium would be good for the club and the community. Not some huge barn. I'd say a 12,000 all seater would be big enough for cope with the occasional glamour tie, while being small enough not to have us rattling round like peas in a pod for normal games.