council want to talk to Town about new stadium

Quoted from mimma

As a matter of interest, I have just read through the excellent Cod Almighty article on the Fenty years.

The bit I found to be interesting, concerning the Great Coates project was that the council had originally supported it, but then decided  that they wanted to redevelop Garth Lane instead. Since there was only room for one development that meant that the council would only support their own pet project, putting a massive spanner in the works for Town.

Fast forward to the present day, neither project happened, Great Coates and Garth Lane are still empty. Shafted by our own council for something they could not deliver.

Perhaps…or may be the council recognised that the new stadium was still unlikely and great Coates was not the best site…I genuinely think we dodged a bullet there…although it still cost the club wasted thousands…

There is/was not the skill sets to deliver any large project, stadium or otherwise on either the council or the (old) board.
Electric cables under the bus station stopping the cinema....FFS

Not a priority, Christ give me strength. A new stadium should have been a priority since the 1990 Taylor Report.

I could not believe it when I heard Stockwood had made no contact with the council. Does that mean he has no interest in relocating to Freemo?

I can put some opening dates for the clubs mentioned earlier:

1993: Millwall
1994: Huddersfield
1995: Middlesbrough
1997: Sunderland, Stoke, Derby, Bolton
1998: Reading
1999: Wigan
2001: Southampton
2002: Leicester, Hull
2005: Swansea, Coventry

I imagine most of them didn't actually have the money to build a new arena. They probably went into serious debt, but did so because staying at their old ground was just not viable.

Quoted from White_shorts

Not a priority, Christ give me strength. A new stadium should have been a priority since the 1990 Taylor Report.

I could not believe it when I heard Stockwood had made no contact with the council. Does that mean he has no interest in relocating to Freemo?

I can put some opening dates for the clubs mentioned earlier:

1993: Millwall
1994: Huddersfield
1995: Middlesbrough
1997: Sunderland, Stoke, Derby, Bolton
1998: Reading
1999: Wigan
2001: Southampton
2002: Leicester, Hull
2005: Swansea, Coventry

I imagine most of them didn't actually have the money to build a new arena. They probably went into serious debt, but did so because staying at their old ground was just not viable.

You’ve missed Darlington off your list of forward thinking, debt accruing, stadium building clubs.

Quoted from White_shorts

Not a priority, Christ give me strength. A new stadium should have been a priority since the 1990 Taylor Report.

I could not believe it when I heard Stockwood had made no contact with the council. Does that mean he has no interest in relocating to Freemo?

I can put some opening dates for the clubs mentioned earlier:

1993: Millwall
1994: Huddersfield
1995: Middlesbrough
1997: Sunderland, Stoke, Derby, Bolton
1998: Reading
1999: Wigan
2001: Southampton
2002: Leicester, Hull
2005: Swansea, Coventry

I imagine most of them didn't actually have the money to build a new arena. They probably went into serious debt, but did so because staying at their old ground was just not viable.

Considering the previous regime never got any where in 2 decades, whilst we plummeted down the pyramid a change of strategy might not be a bad idea.

Quoted from Poojah

You’ve missed Darlington off your list of forward thinking, debt accruing, stadium building clubs.

I'm not quite sure what your point is, Poojah. Sarcasm doesn't come across very well in writing.

Of course Darlington built a stadium that was far too big for their fanbase, but the likes of Hull and Reading have replaced us as second tier regulars, and even had spells in the Premier League.

Quoted from White_shorts

Not a priority, Christ give me strength. A new stadium should have been a priority since the 1990 Taylor Report.

I could not believe it when I heard Stockwood had made no contact with the council. Does that mean he has no interest in relocating to Freemo?

I can put some opening dates for the clubs mentioned earlier:

1993: Millwall
1994: Huddersfield
1995: Middlesbrough
1997: Sunderland, Stoke, Derby, Bolton
1998: Reading
1999: Wigan
2001: Southampton
2002: Leicester, Hull
2005: Swansea, Coventry

I imagine most of them didn't actually have the money to build a new arena. They probably went into serious debt, but did so because staying at their old ground was just not viable.

Let’s not run before we can walk, the new owners have only just got their feet under the table, they’re tasked with trying to rebuild a club that’s been decimated by the fenty years, including building a brand new squad that’s capable of getting us out of the s hit that we’ve been left in and providing professional training facilities. Give them some time.

I wouldnt rule out Tom Shutes being interested in the ground building, declaring a non interest in the Club to build the ground, i believe there is method in his madness on pulling out, besides him not agreeing in the Fenty report of the extra funds of the supporters club shares, i reckon he will declare it in the near future.

Quoted from White_shorts

I'm not quite sure what your point is, Poojah. Sarcasm doesn't come across very well in writing.

Of course Darlington built a stadium that was far too big for their fanbase, but the likes of Hull and Reading have replaced us as second tier regulars, and even had spells in the Premier League.

It was merely a quick way to highlight the oversimplification of your list of clubs who have supposedly borrowed large sums of money, built stadiums and flourished. Since that apparently wasn't sufficient, I'll elaborate.

First and foremost, Hull don't own their stadium - it was paid for and is owned by Hull City Council, in turn funded by the curious local monopoly that is (or at least was) Kingston Communications. Reading's Madejski Stadium was largely funded (in the shape of interest free loans) by their owner John Madejski, a man with a current net worth of around £250m.

Swansea's Liberty Stadium is also council funded and owned. Wigan's then called JJB Stadium was funded outright by Dave Whelan (owner of JJB). Coventry's Ricoh Stadium has never been owned by the club and has been an absolute disaster. Rotherham, which you didn't mention, were handed a sizeable £5m loan by their local council to help cover the costs of their New York Stadium. Even Man City's ground is owned by the council - where would they be today had Manchester not hosted the 2002 Commonwealth Games?

If you want a real success story, go and take a look at Brighton. Tony Bloom lent the club the full £90 required to fund the AMEX Stadium, interest free, and his total loans to the club now exceed £350m. No problem, since the club is now worth considerably more than that. Speculate to accumulate, as long as you do it well.

My point is this, whilst not the only ways to fund a stadium, having a wealthy benefactor and / or a helpful council makes life significantly easier. We have had neither of those - just a blinkered, incompetent buffoon chasing a slew of pipe dream enabling developments and a disinterested, visionless local council. Even now,  we have apparently competent owners but I don't think they quite fall into 'wealthy benefactor' territory.

So, since you inferred it might be a sensible way forward, why don't our competent new owners go and competently borrow the money? Simple answer - because they can't, at least nowhere near enough to fund it on its own.

If Town were to build a new stadium to a desirable standard, you're looking at a bill of somewhere in the region of £30m. Naming rights, grants etc. could cover some of that but you're still looking at a shortfall north of £20m. No financial institution is going to lend a struggling, non-league club that kind of sum with no security.

That's the problem with stadiums - they don't work like normal property. If I default on my mortgage, the bank can repossess an asset worth more than my outstanding loan (unless I'm in negative equity, but that's the reason you don't see 100% mortgages anymore). But if a stadium costs £30m to build, its actual market value is substantially (and I mean substantially) less than that. It's barely worth anything to anyone but the club.

Case in point, Darlington Arena cost £18m to build in 2003 (so in today's construction money, that's about £35m+). When they went out of business, it was eventually sold to local rugby club Mowden Park for £2m, about 5% of its real terms build cost.

So, wrapping up, Jason Stockwood said that a new stadium was not a 'priority', not that it wasn't 'important'. That's very different. When you draw up a priority list, you don't just put all the really big, important stuff at the top - you have to temper that with things that can make small differences and yet be delivered quickly. A lot of things have been allowed to rot during the pursuit of the doomed Fentydome, and they need fixing.

I am sure that a new stadium remains very much on the new owners' agenda, but we have a number of holes to plug first. A redeveloped BP is probably the most pragmatic option since we already own the land and could redevelop a stand at a time, reducing the borrowing burden. Whether that's the right thing, I'm not sure. However, I am confident that all options will be considered and when the time is right, the best one will be pursued subject to a level of due diligence that has been grossly lacking in all previous failed attempts.

Quoted from Poojah

It was merely a quick way to highlight the oversimplification of your list of clubs who have supposedly borrowed large sums of money, built stadiums and flourished. Since that apparently wasn't sufficient, I'll elaborate.

First and foremost, Hull don't own their stadium - it was paid for and is owned by Hull City Council, in turn funded by the curious local monopoly that is (or at least was) Kingston Communications. Reading's Madejski Stadium was largely funded (in the shape of interest free loans) by their owner John Madejski, a man with a current net worth of around £250m.

Swansea's Liberty Stadium is also council funded and owned. Wigan's then called JJB Stadium was funded outright by Dave Whelan (owner of JJB). Coventry's Ricoh Stadium has never been owned by the club and has been an absolute disaster. Rotherham, which you didn't mention, were handed a sizeable £5m loan by their local council to help cover the costs of their New York Stadium. Even Man City's ground is owned by the council - where would they be today had Manchester not hosted the 2002 Commonwealth Games?

If you want a real success story, go and take a look at Brighton. Tony Bloom lent the club the full £90 required to fund the AMEX Stadium, interest free, and his total loans to the club now exceed £350m. No problem, since the club is now worth considerably more than that. Speculate to accumulate, as long as you do it well.

My point is this, whilst not the only ways to fund a stadium, having a wealthy benefactor and / or a helpful council makes life significantly easier. We have had neither of those - just a blinkered, incompetent buffoon chasing a slew of pipe dream enabling developments and a disinterested, visionless local council. Even now,  we have apparently competent owners but I don't think they quite fall into 'wealthy benefactor' territory.

So, since you inferred it might be a sensible way forward, why don't our competent new owners go and competently borrow the money? Simple answer - because they can't, at least nowhere near enough to fund it on its own.

If Town were to build a new stadium to a desirable standard, you're looking at a bill of somewhere in the region of £30m. Naming rights, grants etc. could cover some of that but you're still looking at a shortfall north of £20m. No financial institution is going to lend a struggling, non-league club that kind of sum with no security.

That's the problem with stadiums - they don't work like normal property. If I default on my mortgage, the bank can repossess an asset worth more than my outstanding loan (unless I'm in negative equity, but that's the reason you don't see 100% mortgages anymore). But if a stadium costs £30m to build, its actual market value is substantially (and I mean substantially) less than that. It's barely worth anything to anyone but the club.

Case in point, Darlington Arena cost £18m to build in 2003 (so in today's construction money, that's about £35m+). When they went out of business, it was eventually sold to local rugby club Mowden Park for £2m, about 5% of its real terms build cost.

So, wrapping up, Jason Stockwood said that a new stadium was not a 'priority', not that it wasn't 'important'. That's very different. When you draw up a priority list, you don't just put all the really big, important stuff at the top - you have to temper that with things that can make small differences and yet be delivered quickly. A lot of things have been allowed to rot during the pursuit of the doomed Fentydome, and they need fixing.

I am sure that a new stadium remains very much on the new owners' agenda, but we have a number of holes to plug first. A redeveloped BP is probably the most pragmatic option since we already own the land and could redevelop a stand at a time, reducing the borrowing burden. Whether that's the right thing, I'm not sure. However, I am confident that all options will be considered and when the time is right, the best one will be pursued subject to a level of due diligence that has been grossly lacking in all previous failed attempts.

All good stuff....the only issue in the redeveloping route is the council historically have said they wouldn't grant permissions for redevelopment of B.P......whether that has changed I dont know , maybe the new owners have the skills and wherewithall to overcome that anyway.