Clapping is cheap

1% pay rise for the NHS. 1 flipping per cent. We can waste billions on systems provided by our mates that don’t work but we can’t afford to reward you for the best year ever performed by the NHS.

It's just another disgraceful act by a government that hasn't a clue how to actually govern the country but hey we got Brexit done.

How can you urge the population to come out and applaud the wonderful NHS and it's staff, at the front line of the fight against this pandemic, and then say oh thanks a lot here's 1% of the pittance you already get and don't moan because you got clapped and sometimes people bashed pans.

To me it's always a no win for NHS staff. Firstly they always get offered a pittance as the gov. of the day know that the staff have a conscious of caring. Secondly if, and that is a big IF, they all went on strike at the same  time ( and I can never see that happening) then people would die.

Relatives of the deceased would then point fingers at staff saying that you killed my relation. Nobody considers the amount of anguish staff go through. They are taken for granted and covid has proved that. Court orders for parking charges instead of a pay rise, that probably wouldn't cover the parking charges.

1% of £30K, £6 per week is not worth a clap or appreciation. % mean very little to those on low pay so £20 per week each would show some appreciation for their dedication over the last 12 months. And don't forget the govt will claw some that back in income tax etc,

Typical Tories, always wanting something for nothing.

Just braindead too, as the NHS staffing shortages are no secret with 38,000 nursing vacancies alone. This will obviously get worse and the decent people who go into the national health service will just find work elsewhere. Who’s going to suffer then? It’ll be the great unwashed who have to use the NHS, and not those with private healthcare.

Quoted from ska face

Typical Tories, always wanting something for nothing.

Just braindead too, as the NHS staffing shortages are no secret with 38,000 nursing vacancies alone. This will obviously get worse and the decent people who go into the national health service will just find work elsewhere. Who’s going to suffer then? It’ll be the great unwashed who have to use the NHS, and not those with private healthcare.

Thats what the Tories have wanted since Maggies time. Create a two tier health system, use the NHS to train the staff, gradually cut funding to the NHS, as long as those that can afford to pay are catered for. This means they can cut public service funding and reduce taxes and NI contributions and move to a more American style Insurance based system.

Forgive my asking but isn’t this a slow handclap requested by the unions?

We’re talking about the hypocrisy of those Tories who were seen jumping on the weekly claps for the ‘NHS heroes’ and then giving these ‘heroes’ a pittance of a pay award.

We all knew it was going to happen this way last year. But those of who vote Tory didn’t want to know.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

We’re talking about the hypocrisy of those Tories who were seen jumping on the weekly claps for the ‘NHS heroes’ and then giving these ‘heroes’ a pittance of a pay award.

We all knew it was going to happen this way last year. But those of who vote Tory didn’t want to know.

Chase a few of the big corporations who exploit tax loopholes would be a start. The trouble is the government are sh** scared to upset the likes of Amazon.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

We’re talking about the hypocrisy of those Tories who were seen jumping on the weekly claps for the ‘NHS heroes’ and then giving these ‘heroes’ a pittance of a pay award.

We all knew it was going to happen this way last year. But those of who vote Tory didn’t want to know.

You can hardly call it a pittance!

Quoted from Humbercod

You can hardly call it a pittance!

If what I've read is correct it equates to about £3.50 per week (prepared to be proved wrong).
I am in the very fortunate position as someone who is retired to be able to pay £3.50 for a take-away coffee.
I'd consider that to be the very dictionary definition of a pittance.

Sorry I was referring to the overall wage. Nurses, doctors, and higher managers will be paid well, I would of thought under the current climate with the public finances stretched they would be a bit more understanding!
Many people in the private sector who haven’t had a pay rise for years would love 1% and a nice pension.

They should join a Union then.

Nice to see the boot lickers been lead up the “race to the bottom” garden path though. Where do you think public sector wages are spent anyway? Could it be...the private sector perhaps? Great idea though, take demand out the economy when you need to increase it and get private firms supported.

Quoted from ska face

They should join a Union then.

Nice to see the boot lickers been lead up the “race to the bottom” garden path though. Where do you think public sector wages are spent anyway? Could it be...the private sector perhaps? Great idea though, take demand out the economy when you need to increase it and get private firms supported.

Oh yeah it’s Friday night has the wife let you have a few shandy’s Ska?

Said it some months ago when we clapped the NHS each Thursday, they would rather have a decent pay award then a good clap. I know people say politicians pay award are worked out by a committee but funny how their awards always seem larger then anybody else who is paid from taxes.

Nothing those fookers do has ever surprised me and nothing ever will. Still can't understand why working people vote Tory. It's a lifelong puzzle to me.

Quoted from Humbercod

Sorry I was referring to the overall wage. Nurses, doctors, and higher managers will be paid well, I would of thought under the current climate with the public finances stretched they would be a bit more understanding!
Many people in the private sector who haven’t had a pay rise for years would love 1% and a nice pension.

You continue to show that you have no understanding of economics. 1% is a pittance when inflation is higher. And when you take the longer term view, NHS workers have fallen further behind in real terms. I suspect that you don’t know what that means judging by your comments.

And if you think stiffing NHS and other public sector workers is going to save enough money to make a dent in the sums of money the government has spent on this crisis you are sadly lacking in understanding of basic arithmetic.

You also seem not to understand the impact of government spending and debt on economic growth and the effect that has on affordability of debt.

Go and educate yourself.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

You continue to show that you have no understanding of economics. 1% is a pittance when inflation is higher. And when you take the longer term view, NHS workers have fallen further behind in real terms. I suspect that you don’t know what that means judging by your comments.

Nurses got a 5% pay rise last year. They’ll get a further 1% this year. Average pay for a qualified nurse is about 40k much better than many of their European counterparts, and they have job security and a good pension. Now I will give you a basic lesson in economics ...they are paid out of taxes!

When hundreds of thousands of people have lost their jobs, homes, families, businesses and in some cases their lives just to protect the NHS then it’s really not a good look to be complaining again just like the teachers at every second chance.

Quoted Text

And if you think stiffing NHS and other public sector workers is going to save enough money to make a dent in the sums of money the government has spent on this crisis you are sadly lacking in understanding of basic arithmetic.
.

Public sector doesn’t deserve any more money so nobody is getting stifled. But if it makes you feel all ooh so intelligent by stating the basic flipping obvious then good for you.

Quoted from Humbercod

When hundreds of thousands of people have lost their jobs, homes, families, businesses and in some cases their lives just to protect the NHS then it’s really not a good look to be complaining again just like the teachers

It’s not a good look for the government to waste hundreds of millions of pounds of tax payers money giving contracts to their mates.

But as is this governments thirst for outdoing themselves in hypocrisy they don’t stop at that but have the temerity to talk affordability when dickiing over worked NHS staff out of a paltry pay rise.
And people defend it!

So nurses are paid through taxes, unlike those on furlough, or those running the £22bn test & trace failure, or those providing PPE to the tune of £3.2bn of inflated prices.

The truth is the govt have printed £450bn out of thin air during the pandemic, and even the BBC are now parroting the line that running huge deficits is fine, completely flipping their narrative they’ve run for the last decade -




But on crab mentality island, people would rather lie about how much nurses earn than let them have a few quid more. The median nurse salary is £25k, which is...some way short of £40k (https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Registered_Nurse_(RN)/Salary). That few quid more will be going straight into local economies, supporting small businesses and the private sector.

Thank you for the lesson in basic economics though  

Quoted from ska face

So nurses are paid through taxes, unlike those on furlough, or those running the £22bn test & trace failure, or those providing PPE to the tune of £3.2bn of inflated prices.

The truth is the govt have printed £450bn out of thin air during the pandemic, and even the BBC are now parroting the line that running huge deficits is fine, completely flipping their narrative they’ve run for the last decade -

Tweet 1368168641443823638 will appear here...

on crab mentality island, people would rather lie about how much nurses earn than let them have a few quid more. The median nurse salary is £25k, which is...some way short of £40k (https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Registered_Nurse_(RN)/Salary). That few quid more will be going straight into local economies, supporting small businesses and the private sector.

Thank you for the lesson in basic economics though  

Your link is excrement mate
Try this one ......
https://www.qunomedical.com/en/research/healthcare-salary-index/

Quoted from Humbercod

Sorry I was referring to the overall wage. Nurses, doctors, and higher managers will be paid well, I would of thought under the current climate with the public finances stretched they would be a bit more understanding!
Many people in the private sector who haven’t had a pay rise for years would love 1% and a nice pension.

The public sector have had their wages stagnate for over a decade and increasing at 1%, barely over inflation levels, after having to work in incredibly difficult and stressful situations for the last year.is disgusting. And you've got no idea if you think nurses are paid well. Average salary of £33,000 for a full time position which is below the average salary nationally for someone in full time work.

How we laughed when the Tories mocked Labour's spending plans, referring to a mythical magic money tree.

Seems it wasn't so mythical after all. Must be that 350 million a week extra we are getting now we are free from the EU overlords. Wonder what happened to the big red bus? Probably sacked the driver and sold it for scrap.

Quoted from Humbercod

Your link is excrement mate
Try this one ......
https://www.qunomedical.com/en/research/healthcare-salary-index/

Let's not look at individual numbers.

Tell us, do you think it is right that nurses currently earn less in real terms than they did in 2010 and will earn even less come the end of 2022? A simple yes or no answer required.

Quoted from Humbercod

Nurses got a 5% pay rise last year. They’ll get a further 1% this year. Average pay for a qualified nurse is about 40k much better than many of their European counterparts, and they have job security and a good pension. Now I will give you a basic lesson in economics ...they are paid out of taxes!

When hundreds of thousands of people have lost their jobs, homes, families, businesses and in some cases their lives just to protect the NHS then it’s really not a good look to be complaining again just like the teachers at every second chance.



Public sector doesn’t deserve any more money so nobody is getting stifled. But if it makes you feel all ooh so intelligent by stating the basic flipping obvious then good for you.

You’ve completely missed the points. That does not surprise me.

Quoted from Maringer

Let's not look at individual numbers.

Tell us, do you think it is right that nurses currently earn less in real terms than they did in 2010 and will earn even less come the end of 2022? A simple yes or no answer required.

All relative! Public sector are still earnings 7% more than the private sector on average, I was earning more in 2010 then today. The moaning nurses (not al!l) should just quit if they don’t like it and see how they get on in the real world. A lot of big companies are slashing wages just look at British Gas for example with their fire and re-hire tactics absolutely disgraceful!
Just like the Armed forces when you sign up you know what the deal is only difference being the Armed forces deserve a pay rise but can’t complain about it.
There are Carer’s who have been on the front line (no time for tick tick routines) who will be on not a lot more than minimum wage I’d guess these are the people who deserve a pay rise, not the NHS and by that I’m thinking of the management who will be entitled to whatever some of the hard working nurses would get.

I think the issue is how YOU’D get on if all the nurses and healthcare professionals just fúcked it off tomorrow and got jobs shuffling paper, selling tat or building stuff like the rest of us. There’d be a lot more dead people - might be me, might be you, might be Boris. Do you think the “protect the NHS” slogan was about protecting their jobs? It was about protecting the service so it didn’t collapse.

As for carers, the private sector, the army and whoever else - you don’t improve your own lot by pulling others down with you.

Crab mentality.

Quoted from Humbercod

All relative! Public sector are still earnings 7% more than the private sector on average, I was earning more in 2010 then today. The moaning nurses (not al!l) should just quit if they don’t like it and see how they get on in the real world. A lot of big companies are slashing wages just look at British Gas for example with their fire and re-hire tactics absolutely disgraceful!
Just like the Armed forces when you sign up you know what the deal is only difference being the Armed forces deserve a pay rise but can’t complain about it.
There are Carer’s who have been on the front line (no time for tick tick routines) who will be on not a lot more than minimum wage I’d guess these are the people who deserve a pay rise, not the NHS and by that I’m thinking of the management who will be entitled to whatever some of the hard working nurses would get.

The NHS is already chronically understaffed with tens of thousands of positions unfilled but you're advocating not rectifying a situation that could see even more vacant job posts?

I think Humbo is just trolling now.

The Forces get extra pay when doing more dangerous work or extended periods away from home. Apples/oranges.

Quoted from Humbercod

All relative! Public sector are still earnings 7% more than the private sector on average, I was earning more in 2010 then today. The moaning nurses (not al!l) should just quit if they don’t like it and see how they get on in the real world. A lot of big companies are slashing wages just look at British Gas for example with their fire and re-hire tactics absolutely disgraceful!
Just like the Armed forces when you sign up you know what the deal is only difference being the Armed forces deserve a pay rise but can’t complain about it.
There are Carer’s who have been on the front line (no time for tick tick routines) who will be on not a lot more than minimum wage I’d guess these are the people who deserve a pay rise, not the NHS and by that I’m thinking of the management who will be entitled to whatever some of the hard working nurses would get.

The real world! I can't imagine it gets much more 'real' than dealing with death on a day to day basis.  Oh yeah, reading gas meters and servicing boilers.

Quoted from ska face

I think the issue is how YOU’D get on if all the nurses and healthcare professionals just fúcked it off tomorrow and got jobs shuffling paper, selling tat or building stuff like the rest of us. There’d be a lot more dead people - might be me, might be you, might be Boris. Do you think the “protect the NHS” slogan was about protecting their jobs? It was about protecting the service so it didn’t collapse.

As for carers, the private sector, the army and whoever else - you don’t improve your own lot by pulling others down with you.

Crab mentality.

Nail.  Head.  Whack!

Quoted from Humbercod

All relative! Public sector are still earnings 7% more than the private sector on average, I was earning more in 2010 then today. The moaning nurses (not al!l) should just quit if they don’t like it and see how they get on in the real world. A lot of big companies are slashing wages just look at British Gas for example with their fire and re-hire tactics absolutely disgraceful!
Just like the Armed forces when you sign up you know what the deal is only difference being the Armed forces deserve a pay rise but can’t complain about it.
There are Carer’s who have been on the front line (no time for tick tick routines) who will be on not a lot more than minimum wage I’d guess these are the people who deserve a pay rise, not the NHS and by that I’m thinking of the management who will be entitled to whatever some of the hard working nurses would get.

The race to the bottom mentality.

Still, got to keep some funds back to pay the 2.5 thousand consultants on the track and trace fiasco. Some of them on 6 grand a day. Mind you, they deserve it because it's a very stressful job.

Whoosh!!!!

Nurses are not actually going to leave a well paid job with plenty of overtime and a nice public sector pension on top are they!

Sooner the NHS gets privatised the better.... come on Boris👍🏾

Quoted from Humbercod

Whoosh!!!!

Nurses are not actually going to leave a well paid job with plenty of overtime and a nice public sector pension on top are they!

Sooner the NHS gets privatised the better.... come on Boris👍🏾

Never too late for you to retrain. With your compassion, I am sure you would have a lovely bedside manner. Just think of all the overtime and that juicy pension.....not to mention the 14 hour shifts, inadequate PPE, a hypocritical government overseeing the dismantling of the NHS.......sounds a piece of p**s

Quoted from smokey111

not to mention the 14 hour shifts

3 x 12 hour shifts with 4 days of you mean!

Quoted from Humbercod

3 x 12 hour shifts with 4 days of you mean!

My mother and sister and in law are nurses. My other half is training to be a nurse. I have a friend who is an anaesthetist. They simply would not recognise the picture you paint.

Quoted from Humbercod

3 x 12 hour shifts with 4 days of you mean!

Not entirely sure how you think this is the case. I wasn't working in a nursing post but I would sometimes have 5 x 13 hour shifts followed by two days off then back in to work and I'm fairly confident just from seeing the nurses so regularly that they never had four days off in a row.

Quoted from Sandford1981

My mother and sister and in law are nurses. My other half is training to be a nurse. I have a friend who is an anaesthetist. They simply would not recognise the picture you paint.

It’s not me painting the picture just relaying the facts!

https://nurse.org/articles/nurses-three-days-a-week/

https://www.nursingtimes.net/c.....d-or-foe-30-01-2015/

Quoted from Humbercod

It’s not me painting the picture just relaying the facts!

https://nurse.org/articles/nurses-three-days-a-week/

https://www.nursingtimes.net/c.....d-or-foe-30-01-2015/

The experience of NHS staff on the ground is markedly different to the ‘facts’ you relay. I  know this because I speak to people regularly who work in the NHS across regions  but if you want to ignore first hand experience from real people then that  is your prerogative.

Quoted from Sandford1981

The experience of NHS staff on the ground is markedly different to the ‘facts’ you relay. I  know this because I speak to people regularly who work in the NHS across regions  but if you want to ignore first hand experience from real people then that  is your prerogative.

So do I pal my cousin is a a nurse at Grimsby!

Got to laugh at someone who claims to be middle class (now) on one thread, talking about his £5k push bike on another, suddenly decides he’s voice of the working class and finding every contortion possible to justify workers not being paid a decent wage. Typical of the petite bourgeoisie, I’m Alrite Jack, pull the ladder up, “university of life” bods stuffed into every Question Time audience.

I think he's just attention seeking. He knows he's talking bollox and what he says is unpopular. Just another sad act whose mummy didn't give him the attention as a child.

Quoted from Humbercod

So do I pal my cousin is a a nurse at Grimsby!

Which makes your ignorance even more remarkable Pal!

Quoted from ska face

Got to laugh at someone who claims to be middle class (now) on one thread, talking about his £5k push bike on another, suddenly decides he’s voice of the working class and finding every contortion possible to justify workers not being paid a decent wage. Typical of the petite bourgeoisie, I’m Alrite Jack, pull the ladder up, “university of life” bods stuffed into every Question Time audience.

Look don’t mean to be rude but your nothing more than Labour goon, probably sees himself (when being honest with himself) as someone who has under achieved in life so will politicise anything just to a scream and shout and point the blame finger and at those nasty Torys.... Saddo!

Quoted from KingstonMariner

I think he's just attention seeking. He knows he's talking bollox and what he says is unpopular. Just another sad act whose mummy didn't give him the attention as a child.

How you defining unpopular?
Ohh it must be those disgraceful red crosses😂
I’m laughing thinking how superior you must think you are , and how ashamed you would be with all my red crosses😂
Don’t you realise I’m in a minority in a majority lefty mainly Labour supporting forum and I take EVERY  Red Cross on here as a flipping badge of honour😂

Quoted from Sandford1981

Which makes your ignorance even more remarkable Pal!

You’re calling me ignorant? Give you’re head a wobble.

I’ve given you factual evidence from Nurse’s own websites that state 3 x 12hour shifts are the norm not 14 as you incorrectly stated!!!!
Yes Nurses can do 14 hours and come in for extra days but this will be paid overtime FFS

Quoted from Humbercod

You’re calling me ignorant? Give you’re head a wobble.

I’ve given you factual evidence from Nurse’s own websites that state 3 x 12hour shifts are the norm not 14 as you incorrectly stated!!!!
Yes Nurses can do 14 hours and come in for extra days but this will be paid overtime FFS

Yes I’m calling you ignorant. Ignorant of the very ‘‘evidence’ and ‘facts’ you provided. The very same articles not only back up the fact nurses do more than their allotted hours (sometimes up to 16 hours) but also describes the dangers of their working hours and type of work they carry out. Far from proving your point they back up what I am being told by people in the field.

I’m not wildly pulling out of the air, the things I’m saying but I am repeating what I am being told by people doing the job.

Did I incorrectly state nurses do 14 hour shifts????

Quoted from Sandford1981

Yes I’m calling you ignorant. Ignorant of the very ‘‘evidence’ and ‘facts’ you provided. The very same articles not only back up the fact nurses do more than their allotted hours (sometimes up to 16 hours) but also describes the dangers of their working hours and type of work they carry out. Far from proving your point they back up what I am being told by people in the field.

I’m not wildly pulling out of the air, the things I’m saying but I am repeating what I am being told by people doing the job.

Did I incorrectly state nurses do 14 hour shifts????

Going around in circles with you, it’s still a 12 hour shift! Why is that so hard to understand? No doubt some hospitals will have heavy workloads at times and 12 hrs can turn into 14 or even 16hrs just like in my job nature of the beast. But many hospitals have been relatively quite this year especially in low Covid areas, due to all the hospital cancellations, many managers were sent home and hospital doctors were practically running the place (a lot better according to some reports) themselves. My Cousin informs me Grimsby has been very quite at times especially at the start of the pandemic the ICU ward had been extra busy understandably but stil staff will  bleat about travel time to and from work and adding on to their hours to make a 12 hour shift sound like a16 hour shift unbelievable.

Apologies you didn’t state the 14 hrs it was indeed somebody else, I lose track with so many liberals on here 😀

Quoted from Humbercod

Going around in circles with you, it’s still a 12 hour shift! Why is that so hard to understand? No doubt some hospitals will have heavy workloads at times and 12 hrs can turn into 14 or even 16hrs just like in my job nature of the beast. But many hospitals have been relatively quite this year especially in low Covid areas, due to all the hospital cancellations, many managers were sent home and hospital doctors were practically running the place (a lot better according to some reports) themselves. My Cousin informs me Grimsby has been very quite at times especially at the start of the pandemic the ICU ward had been extra busy understandably but stil staff will  bleat about travel time to and from work and adding on to their hours to make a 12 hour shift sound like a16 hour shift unbelievable.

Apologies you didn’t state the 14 hrs it was indeed somebody else, I lose track with so many liberals on here 😀

If consistently someone works over their scheduled hours as nurses do, then 12 hour shifts are a myth.

It’s What someone is scheduled to do versus what they actually do. So when you flippantly say they do 3 12 hour shifts and have 4 days off it makes a difference. As your ‘evidence’ proves.

Exhaustion and burn out don’t cease to exist because a nurse was only scheduled to work 12 hours, it happens because of being over worked.
Not sure what part of that you find so difficult to grasp?

Quoted from Humbercod

How you defining unpopular?
Ohh it must be those disgraceful red crosses😂
I’m laughing thinking how superior you must think you are , and how ashamed you would be with all my red crosses😂
Don’t you realise I’m in a minority in a majority lefty mainly Labour supporting forum and I take EVERY  Red Cross on here as a flipping badge of honour😂

I never thought of taking red crosses as a badge of honour. Lateral thinking. Thank you for that thought, over 1,100 honour me.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm carried away with the thought.

Not wishing to enter your debate I do think that all nhs staff do a brilliant job.

Quoted from Humbercod

Look don’t mean to be rude but your nothing more than Labour goon, probably sees himself (when being honest with himself) as someone who has under achieved in life so will politicise anything just to a scream and shout and point the blame finger and at those nasty Torys.... Saddo!

Oh dear, such thin skin on the nouveau riche nowadays! I bet those outbursts don’t go down well on the New Waltham dinner party circuit.

Quoted from ska face

Oh dear, such thin skin on the nouveau riche nowadays! I bet those outbursts don’t go down well on the New Waltham dinner party circuit.

Humberston darling😘

Quoted from DB

Not wishing to enter your debate I do think that all nhs staff do a brilliant job.

I know what you mean!

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s.....onavirus-crisis.html

Quoted from Humbercod

I know what you mean!

Simple really,
You're not feeling well so the NHS provide a GP
Need a Consultant the NHS will provide one
You need live saving urgent treatment now, NHS provide it
You need life saving medication on a life time basis, the NHS provide it

Understand now

Quoted from DB

Simple really,
You're not feeling well so the NHS provide a GP
Need a Consultant the NHS will provide one
You need live saving urgent treatment now, NHS provide it
You need life saving medication on a life time basis, the NHS provide it

Understand now

Perfectly! everyone receive’s an equally shite service👍

Quoted from Humbercod

Perfectly! everyone receive’s an equally shite service👍

You're just being deliberately provocative for the sake of it now.

Give it a rest eh!

Quoted from ginnywings

You're just being deliberately provocative for the sake of it now.

Give it a rest eh!

No One is being provocative ginny I’ve obviously just got a different opinion to you regarding the massive failure that is the NHS.

But if you don't like my reasonable view then that’s tough titty’s old boy I’m afraid, you can’t go around trying to censor fellow posters you just happen to disagree with! unless of course you’ve been nominated supreme leader of the Fishy!  

Quoted from Humbercod

No One is being provocative ginny I’ve obviously just got a different opinion to you regarding the massive failure that is the NHS.

But if you don't like my reasonable view then that’s tough titty’s old boy I’m afraid, you can’t go around trying to censor fellow posters you just happen to disagree with! unless of course you’ve been nominated supreme leader of the Fishy!  

I have had nothing but excellent care and excellent experiences of the NHS.

They are working under the constraints of a government who would disband it tomorrow and privatise it if it wasn't political suicide. Overworked and underfunded; it's a massive credit to them that they do as well as they do.

Like I said. Dear little Humbo is a sad little boy who didn’t get the love every child needs. It’s not his fault he’s an attention seeking little prat.

I was reminded of him watching Nordic Noir drama ‘All the Sins’ series 2. There was a bloke who admitted to war crimes in Yugoslavia. The character used to go into town to pick fights to get beaten up.

Quoted from ginnywings

I have had nothing but excellent care and excellent experiences of the NHS.

To be fair to Humbercod though Ginny he has a slight point. Ive been under the care of the NHS all my life due to my lung problem and while the majority of care is good  sometimes doctors/professors even  get it wrong. Ive had to intervene and say this care/medicine isnt right for which they have apologised . Its not just me with these experiences but others who I know as well. Granted they are under pressure but due to the conveyer belt of patients they see they are only  human and will make mistakes sometimes.

Ive learnt the hard way you cant trust the medical profession completely.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

Like I said. Dear little Humbo is a sad little boy who didn’t get the love every child needs. It’s not his fault he’s an attention seeking little prat.

I was reminded of him watching Nordic Noir drama ‘All the Sins’ series 2. There was a bloke who admitted to war crimes in Yugoslavia. The character used to go into town to pick fights to get beaten up.

I’d have a break from the Fishy if I were you Kingston, thinking about me whilst gripped into your favourite Nordic adventure does seem a little obsessive.

Quoted from Rick12

To be fair to Humbercod though Ginny he has a slight point. Ive been under the care of the NHS all my life due to my lung problem and while the majority of care is good  sometimes doctors/professors even  get it wrong. Ive had to intervene and say this care/medicine isnt right for which they have apologised . Its not just me with these experiences but others who I know as well. Granted they are under pressure but due to the conveyer belt of patients they see they are only  human and will make mistakes sometimes.

Ive learnt the hard way you cant trust the medical profession completely.

Health care rationing and badly trained 3rd world doctors Rick. Your GP decides whether you can see a consultant, the consultant decides whether you will be properly investigated and then if you will be treated. The NHS uses the cheapest drugs possible and only upgrade you to something better if that doesn’t work. Without rationing we would not be able to run the NHS as it currently is. So we don’t treat all those who need it or to give everyone the best treatment.

Quoted from Humbercod

Health care rationing and badly trained 3rd world doctors Rick. Your GP decides whether you can see a consultant, the consultant decides whether you will be properly investigated and then if you will be treated. The NHS uses the cheapest drugs possible and only upgrade you to something better if that doesn’t work. Without rationing we would not be able to run the NHS as it currently is. So we don’t treat all those who need it or to give everyone the best treatment.

We are lucky to live in this country though Humbercod. The medicines I take are not available in other parts  of the world even Europe and likewise as with other conditions patients will die as the money isnt there. But you have made some fair points. The NHS sometimes does use drugs on the cheap eg a one size fits all to save costs which  whilst treating one thing can affect  other organs adversely. This is what happened to me . Things were missed on my record due to them being so overworked.

Yes, it would be nice to offer NHS workers a further pay rise (they only agreed as six percent rise a couple of years ago) but the country owes trillions and we are in the biggest recession for a hundred years.

Nurses are not poorly paid by any stretch of the imagination. The Royal College of Nursing (RCN) has estimated that an average NHS nurse’s pay is £33,384. Any increase would have to be funded by the taxpayer, it's easy to spend other peoples money, harder to raise that money via YOUR taxes.

The salary ranges at each additional banding level are as follows:

    Band six: £31,365 – £37,890
    Band seven: £38,890 – £44,503
    Band eight: £45,753 – £87,754
    Band nine: £91,004 – £104,927

Of course, the one percent offer will be shouted down by the faux fuming public, it's an opening offer anyway. I see the unions want a ridiculous 12.5 percent. Expect an agreement around the 3 percent mark.

Quoted from Humbercod

Health care rationing and badly trained 3rd world doctors Rick. Your GP decides whether you can see a consultant, the consultant decides whether you will be properly investigated and then if you will be treated. The NHS uses the cheapest drugs possible and only upgrade you to something better if that doesn’t work. Without rationing we would not be able to run the NHS as it currently is. So we don’t treat all those who need it or to give everyone the best treatment.

I'd have more respect for your views if you didn't come out with such sweeping generalisations. What constitutes a "badly trained third world doctor"? What even constitutes "third world" these days?
I have had cause to use the critical services of the NHS several times in my life.
My heart was sorted out (twice) by a team headed up by an Egyptian professor with the donkey work being done by an Iraqi and a Senegalese.
After a road accident in 2012 my leg was saved by a Libyan.
The entire team (except the initial consultant) who cured me of prostate cancer were from the Indian sub-continent.
I doubt that in all of these cases I just got lucky.
You talk about health care rationing but make no comment as to why such steps might be necessary. Who ultimately controls NHS spending?
For me the main problems started when the Tories decided that what was designed as a service should be run as a business. In many aspects New Labour did nothing to legislate against that view (although it is undoubtedly true that treatment waiting times were very significantly improved between 1997 and 2010).

Quoted from fishboyUTM

Yes, it would be nice to offer NHS workers a further pay rise (they only agreed as six percent rise a couple of years ago) but the country owes trillions and we are in the biggest recession for a hundred years.

Nurses are not poorly paid by any stretch of the imagination. The Royal College of Nursing (RCN) has estimated that an average NHS nurse’s pay is £33,384. Any increase would have to be funded by the taxpayer, it's easy to spend other peoples money, harder to raise that money via YOUR taxes.

The salary ranges at each additional banding level are as follows:

    Band six: £31,365 – £37,890
    Band seven: £38,890 – £44,503
    Band eight: £45,753 – £87,754
    Band nine: £91,004 – £104,927

Of course, the one percent offer will be shouted down by the faux fuming public, it's an opening offer anyway. I see the unions want a ridiculous 12.5 percent. Expect an agreement around the 3 percent mark.

The government just printed £895,000,000,000 in the last year, on top of £445,000,000,000 in 2016 and £375,000,000,000 in 2012.

The idea that any increase in spending - whether it goes on nurses’ wages, massive infrastructure programmes, test & trace bungs - has to be funded directly, penny for penny, out of someone’s pocket is wrong. It’s typical scaremongering ultimately regressive. We’ve just seen 10 years of failed ideological austerity, even Boris said it was wrong recently.

There can’t be many simpler and more effective and sustainable ways of supporting the whole economy than increasing wages for the biggest employer in the country.

If you think the NHS is crap and doesn’t deserve funding Humbo, you can always go and live in America.

Quoted from Rick12

To be fair to Humbercod though Ginny he has a slight point. Ive been under the care of the NHS all my life due to my lung problem and while the majority of care is good  sometimes doctors/professors even  get it wrong. Ive had to intervene and say this care/medicine isnt right for which they have apologised . Its not just me with these experiences but others who I know as well. Granted they are under pressure but due to the conveyer belt of patients they see they are only  human and will make mistakes sometimes.

Ive learnt the hard way you cant trust the medical profession completely.

Mistakes are bound to happen, after all the people that work in the NHS are only human. And I agree, you need to personally be active in making sure that you get what you need. I don’t think any of us are suggesting that doctors and nurses be treated as gods. Just giving them a decent pay award after the year from hell. After all the sanctimonious and hypocritical clapping and praise that was poured out.

We all know the danger of penny pinching.

Quoted from Humbercod

I’d have a break from the Fishy if I were you Kingston, thinking about me whilst gripped into your favourite Nordic adventure does seem a little obsessive.

I can’t help it. Whenever I see a weirdo, your name pops into my head.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

Mistakes are bound to happen, after all the people that work in the NHS are only human. And I agree, you need to personally be active in making sure that you get what you need. I don’t think any of us are suggesting that doctors and nurses be treated as gods. Just giving them a decent pay award after the year from hell. After all the sanctimonious and hypocritical clapping and praise that was poured out.

We all know the danger of penny pinching.

Yes most doctors and nurses do a good job. Some like in any walk of life are better than others though.

Quoted from barralad

I'd have more respect for your views if you didn't come out with such sweeping generalisations. What constitutes a "badly trained third world doctor"? What even constitutes "third world" these days?
I have had cause to use the critical services of the NHS several times in my life.
My heart was sorted out (twice) by a team headed up by an Egyptian professor with the donkey work being done by an Iraqi and a Senegalese.
After a road accident in 2012 my leg was saved by a Libyan.
The entire team (except the initial consultant) who cured me of prostate cancer were from the Indian sub-continent.
I doubt that in all of these cases I just got lucky.
You talk about health care rationing but make no comment as to why such steps might be necessary. Who ultimately controls NHS spending?
For me the main problems started when the Tories decided that what was designed as a service should be run as a business. In many aspects New Labour did nothing to legislate against that view (although it is undoubtedly true that treatment waiting times were very significantly improved between 1997 and 2010).

Reads like you were treat by the United Nations!. On a very serious note if it wasn't for all non UK nationalities that work in the NHS their would be little staff left.

Quoted from barralad

I'd have more respect for your views if you didn't come out with such sweeping generalisations. What constitutes a "badly trained third world doctor"? What even constitutes "third world" these days?

It’’s been well documented on the fraudulent and corrupt medical schools in places like India which is quite scary really when 38% of all NHS doctors gain their primary medical qualifications outside the UK.
Furthermore the majority of doctors struck off up to 75% have been trained abroad, even the Guardian covered this a few years back.

Quoted Text

I have had cause to use the critical services of the NHS several times in my life.
My heart was sorted out (twice) by a team headed up by an Egyptian professor with the donkey work being done by an Iraqi and a Senegalese.
After a road accident in 2012 my leg was saved by a Libyan.
The entire team (except the initial consultant) who cured me of prostate cancer were from the Indian sub-continent.
I doubt that in all of these cases I just got lucky.
You talk about health care rationing but make no comment as to why such steps might be necessary. Who ultimately controls NHS spending?
For me the main problems started when the Tories decided that what was designed as a service should be run as a business. In many aspects New Labour did nothing to legislate against that view (although it is undoubtedly true that treatment waiting times were very significantly improved between 1997 and 2010).

Like you Barra I’ve received good treatment from Foreign doctors on my last visit to hospital the Doctor was from Egypt funny enough and he was excellent, but on the other hand there has been times where I just couldn’t understand a word I was being told, one time the more I questioned him the more angry he got (obviously raised a complaint about him).

Rationing is about the ever increasing waiting lists which can mostly be down bad management. The Kings Fund wrote a paper on NHS rationing a few years ago and said as much. A quick google will tell that the Department of health and social care is responsible for NHS spending and rationing as opposed to insurance company’s and medical professionals setting realistic budgets for private health care.

It’s no surprise you find that the Torys are to blame again but if we look at the Labours period just between the years you state 1997 - 2010 then it really is a case of people in green house shouldn’t throw stones, I could list a number of all their blunders and incompetence but one thing really stands out, and that’s their NHS IT system! 12bn .....12bn and with nothing to show WOW!

Quoted from KingstonMariner

If you think the NHS is crap and doesn’t deserve funding Humbo, you can always go and live in America.

This is one of the most dumbest reply’s I hear! I know your not the sharpest pencil in the box but you’ve certainly surprised me.

It’s a compulsory insurance scheme I’m entitled to criticise something I have to pay for, and why the USA with one of the worst private healthcare systems in the world?
This is where you show your lack of intelligence, why not mention New Zealand, Japan etc,etc or the many great European private healthcare systems?

Quoted from Humbercod

It’’s been well documented on the fraudulent and corrupt medical schools in places like India which is quite scary really when 38% of all NHS doctors gain their primary medical qualifications outside the UK.
Furthermore the majority of doctors struck off up to 75% have been trained abroad, even the Guardian covered this a few years back.




Like you Barra I’ve received good treatment from Foreign doctors on my last visit to hospital the Doctor was from Egypt funny enough and he was excellent, but on the other hand there has been times where I just couldn’t understand a word I was being told, one time the more I questioned him the more angry he got (obviously raised a complaint about him).

Rationing is about the ever increasing waiting lists which can mostly be down bad management. The Kings Fund wrote a paper on NHS rationing a few years ago and said as much. A quick google will tell that the Department of health and social care is responsible for NHS spending and rationing as opposed to insurance company’s and medical professionals setting realistic budgets for private health care.

It’s no surprise you find that the Torys are to blame again but if we look at the Labours period just between the years you state 1997 - 2010 then it really is a case of people in green house shouldn’t throw stones, I could list a number of all their blunders and incompetence but one thing really stands out, and that’s their NHS IT system! 12bn .....12bn and with nothing to show WOW!

Wait until you hear how much the malfunctioning track and trace cost.

Quoted from mariner91

Wait until you hear how much the malfunctioning track and trace cost.

Shocking yes but totally different circumstances, incomparable.

Quoted from Humbercod

It’’s been well documented on the fraudulent and corrupt medical schools in places like India which is quite scary really when 38% of all NHS doctors gain their primary medical qualifications outside the UK.
Furthermore the majority of doctors struck off up to 75% have been trained abroad, even the Guardian covered this a few years back.




Like you Barra I’ve received good treatment from Foreign doctors on my last visit to hospital the Doctor was from Egypt funny enough and he was excellent, but on the other hand there has been times where I just couldn’t understand a word I was being told, one time the more I questioned him the more angry he got (obviously raised a complaint about him).

Rationing is about the ever increasing waiting lists which can mostly be down bad management. The Kings Fund wrote a paper on NHS rationing a few years ago and said as much. A quick google will tell that the Department of health and social care is responsible for NHS spending and rationing as opposed to insurance company’s and medical professionals setting realistic budgets for private health care.

It’s no surprise you find that the Torys are to blame again but if we look at the Labours period just between the years you state 1997 - 2010 then it really is a case of people in green house shouldn’t throw stones, I could list a number of all their blunders and incompetence but one thing really stands out, and that’s their NHS IT system! 12bn .....12bn and with nothing to show WOW!

The problems faced by the NHS can be traced back to the chronic underfunding of the service under the Thatcher and Major governments. The NHS Blair inherited in 1997 had waiting lists running into years. I was diagnosed in July 2001 with ischaemic heart disease and waited until August 2002 for treatment. On the day I had my treatment there were five other patients-all of whom were being treated privately. By the time I needed further treatment in 2009 the waiting time was down to nine weeks. The government had invested money in state of the art equipment in places like Castle Hill. On the day I was treated for the second time there were fifteen other people being treated for the same or similar conditions. In 2002 there were eight medical staff in the treatment room with me. By 2009 there were none. The procedure was done by two medics (one was being trained) in a room off at the side of the treatment room.
Since 2010 we've gone backwards. Even before Covid made its unwelcome appearance waiting times had rocketed. If the problems are down to bad management then you have to question why that didn't manifest itself between 1997-2010.
I've never said that New Labour were blameless but one also needs to question why, with all the advances in technology that since they made a big political splash of ending the work on the failed system have happened that we aren't much nearer the system that was envisaged.
I'm not at all sure how you can dismiss criticism of the monumental failure of Track and Trace as being different circumstances when we are talking about an eye-watering sum of money. There is one big difference. At least the NHS system was given to companies with a background in IT! The Labour government can be roundly criticised for continually altering the spec of what was needed.

You all make interesting reading and not being red or blue I can see both sides. To me it would easier if it was a legal requirement for politicians to honour their election manifesto's, so what they say they would have to do.

(This thread is about NHS and nothing more so please don't go their.)

Election time comes and a party could offer to spend the current cost of the NHS plus inflation plus an extra X% on investment for the future, other parties could make their options along a similar road. These amounts would be binding on the victors.

Such a solution would give a far better funding and the electorate would be in control of spending,  be they blue or red.

Quoted from Humbercod

This is one of the most dumbest reply’s I hear! I know your not the sharpest pencil in the box but you’ve certainly surprised me.

It’s a compulsory insurance scheme I’m entitled to criticise something I have to pay for, and why the USA with one of the worst private healthcare systems in the world?
This is where you show your lack of intelligence, why not mention New Zealand, Japan etc,etc or the many great European private healthcare systems?

The NHS isn’t a compulsory insurance scheme. It’s funded by taxation. Turning it into one won’t make it any more efficient. I never said you weren’t entitled to criticise it.

The reason I mentioned the US is because that’s where your rationale was leading. I don’t have to mention any of the other countries you are now referring to. I’m happy with the way the NHS is set-up, more or less. Sure there is scope for improvement, but evolutionary change, not radical. If you’d like to explain how adopting the Japanese, or New Zealand or any other system would improve the NHS, I’d love to hear it.

I note in another post you mentioned the King’s Fund. What do they have to say? Can you reference their reports?

By the way Humbo, I do see that you can make jokes after all. Insurance companies setting realistic budgets 😂😂😂👍

If you really think that this will solve our rationing problem, I apologise for laughing. There are three main methods of rationing. One is to decide on the basis of need (more or less what we have), one is to do it on the basis of what people can afford (insurance is one way some people pay for their health), and the third is to make people wait until they get better anyway, die, or get their turn (though to be accurate, waiting is part of the armoury used by the NHS for non-life threatening things). If you leave it to the insurance model alone, you will get cost inflation as there is not the direct connection between the ultimate payer (ie who pays the premium) and the service provider. Also it introduces at least one other middleman - the insurance company who are doing it to make a profit, so another wedge is added to the cost. Because it rewards those who provide treatment to the ones who can afford the most, it means resources go into the things the better off want. Those who can’t afford the premiums get nowt. It leads to irrational decisions for the society as a whole. I get my cosmetic job done, but you don’t get the cancer treatment you need, so you are off work, unproductive and unable to support your family.

Costs also escalate because the insurance funded system is inherently more expensive to operate. It needs more accountants and admin than a straight tax-funded system. More people process more bits of ‘paper’ that have no close connection with providing treatment to people.

To avoid irrational outcomes of the private model, the state has to step in and organise things. It sets priorities. It assigns resources. It sets standards.  So the insurance just becomes a way of funding state directed healthcare. The state is setting broad parameters for who gets what - ie makes the rationing decision. To make sure everyone gets access, those countries who go down this route make everyone take out insurance. Effectively it’s a form of taxation. It mitigates the excesses of the US approach, but it still has some inherent inefficiencies.

The American health model is just about the worst in the world. They take far more prescription drugs and pay way more for them than any other country, yet they are one of the unhealthiest countries on the planet.

The drug companies are a total monopoly and prices are set accordingly meaning your average citizen has been priced completely out of the market.

The drug runners over there no longer deal in recreational drugs, but smuggle prescription medicines from Canada and Mexico. It's truly shocking what the private medicine model has done and when Obama tried to change it, he met massive resistance from the powerful health lobbyists.

The Tories would love to get that private model going here and the American drug giants are itching to get their feet under the NHS table. They are already making inroads.

Average cost of healthcare per capita p.a. in US is $10.4K. UK it is $4k. And everyone gets healthcare in the UK. In the US that average figure includes the poor who have no cover (20%? Of the pop), so the real cost for those who do have cover is higher. With worse outcomes.

Anyone who thinks the American model is better, is completely batshit mental.

I’d love to see Mr Humbo to demonstrate a more efficient health system than the UK. It’s a long time since I looked, but the UK was the most efficient out of all developed countries based on cost per capita. Obviously that doesn’t measure outcomes, but if Humbo wants to wow us with his knowledge, it would be ‘even better if’ he can show a more efficient model and show comparative outcomes.

In the meantime, giving key workers a decent pay rise (not 1%) would still be a good idea.

You don’t have to be remotely intelligent to realise the American healthcare model is toilet...even for the moderately wealthy it’s inaccessible. Imagine being seriously ill and your first concern is whether or not you can afford to have healthcare rather than getting better?

I would love to see a grown up debate on the pros and cons of a privatised health care system. Why is whenever somebody mentions  the merits of privatisation the finger gets pointed towards the USA system?

I don’t know of anybody who would be in favour of anything like their system, one of the worst in the western world unless you happen to be rich. We need to be looking at how other countries run their free at the point of entry privatised systems. But the problem is we’re almost brainwashed in the Country with NHS propaganda, you can understand why people must think we have this world leading system.

One only as to look at the Euro Heath Consumer index one of the most thorough and respected researchers that Ranks us at 16th in Europe! and we’ve never made the top 10!
https://healthpowerhouse.com/media/EHCI-2018/EHCI-2018-report.pdf

Then there’s Cancer survival rates comparisons again it’s no surprise to me to see the NHS lagging behind other Privatised systems!

As for efficiency maybe Kingston should look into medical  incompetence throughout the NHS with nearly a quarter of its budget spent not on care but on compensation for negligence and on lawyers handling claims against it. This is one of the very worst performances of any health service in the world.

Quoted from ginnywings

I have had nothing but excellent care and excellent experiences of the NHS.

They are working under the constraints of a government who would disband it tomorrow and privatise it if it wasn't political suicide. Overworked and underfunded; it's a massive credit to them that they do as well as they do.

Agreed. I owe my life to the NHS. The care I received over the 4 stays and 12 weeks I had in Hull Royal was fanatasic. Aftercare is a different matter though.

In 2010 we were in Malta oblivious to a Volcano in Iceland that erupted the day before our flight home. I always pack a couple of days of extra medication but this was a longer enforced stay.

Needed some more tablets. In the UK you see a doctor for a prescription and then the chemist but in Malta, we didn't know what to do. So we decided to see the chemist first and hopefully avoid a doctor's fee. We showed the chemist the empty box and were asked 'how many' tablets would you like. Prescription charges were about £6 in the UK, so fearing the worst as we were asking for private health care, non-NHS, etc., we asked how much each tablet would cost. 50 cents per strip of 10. I just couldn't believe it.

You do to wonder if a tiny nation like Malta could charge so little then why do we have to pay so much in the UK.

The flat-rate charge covers all eventualities. You pay the same amount, whether your medication costs a few pence or a few hundred quid. Some you win, some you lose. Depends on your health, just the same as everyone else.

It's effectively a regressive tax, but the poorest can get exemptions so it's not as bad as some of the others we all have to deal with which don't have exemptions for the poorest.

Ultimately, it's only a tiny part of the cost of the NHS (less than 0.5%), so it might well be worth scrapping it or, at least, cutting it a good amount.