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Clapping is cheap

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DB
March 15, 2021, 1:28pm
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Quoted from barralad


I'd have more respect for your views if you didn't come out with such sweeping generalisations. What constitutes a "badly trained third world doctor"? What even constitutes "third world" these days?
I have had cause to use the critical services of the NHS several times in my life.
My heart was sorted out (twice) by a team headed up by an Egyptian professor with the donkey work being done by an Iraqi and a Senegalese.
After a road accident in 2012 my leg was saved by a Libyan.
The entire team (except the initial consultant) who cured me of prostate cancer were from the Indian sub-continent.
I doubt that in all of these cases I just got lucky.
You talk about health care rationing but make no comment as to why such steps might be necessary. Who ultimately controls NHS spending?
For me the main problems started when the Tories decided that what was designed as a service should be run as a business. In many aspects New Labour did nothing to legislate against that view (although it is undoubtedly true that treatment waiting times were very significantly improved between 1997 and 2010).


Reads like you were treat by the United Nations!. On a very serious note if it wasn't for all non UK nationalities that work in the NHS their would be little staff left.


You can please some of the forumites some of the time but not all the forumites all of the time
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Humbercod
March 15, 2021, 2:14pm
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Quoted from barralad


I'd have more respect for your views if you didn't come out with such sweeping generalisations. What constitutes a "badly trained third world doctor"? What even constitutes "third world" these days?


It’’s been well documented on the fraudulent and corrupt medical schools in places like India which is quite scary really when 38% of all NHS doctors gain their primary medical qualifications outside the UK.
Furthermore the majority of doctors struck off up to 75% have been trained abroad, even the Guardian covered this a few years back.


Quoted Text
I have had cause to use the critical services of the NHS several times in my life.
My heart was sorted out (twice) by a team headed up by an Egyptian professor with the donkey work being done by an Iraqi and a Senegalese.
After a road accident in 2012 my leg was saved by a Libyan.
The entire team (except the initial consultant) who cured me of prostate cancer were from the Indian sub-continent.
I doubt that in all of these cases I just got lucky.
You talk about health care rationing but make no comment as to why such steps might be necessary. Who ultimately controls NHS spending?
For me the main problems started when the Tories decided that what was designed as a service should be run as a business. In many aspects New Labour did nothing to legislate against that view (although it is undoubtedly true that treatment waiting times were very significantly improved between 1997 and 2010).


Like you Barra I’ve received good treatment from Foreign doctors on my last visit to hospital the Doctor was from Egypt funny enough and he was excellent, but on the other hand there has been times where I just couldn’t understand a word I was being told, one time the more I questioned him the more angry he got (obviously raised a complaint about him).

Rationing is about the ever increasing waiting lists which can mostly be down bad management. The Kings Fund wrote a paper on NHS rationing a few years ago and said as much. A quick google will tell that the Department of health and social care is responsible for NHS spending and rationing as opposed to insurance company’s and medical professionals setting realistic budgets for private health care.

It’s no surprise you find that the Torys are to blame again but if we look at the Labours period just between the years you state 1997 - 2010 then it really is a case of people in green house shouldn’t throw stones, I could list a number of all their blunders and incompetence but one thing really stands out, and that’s their NHS IT system! 12bn .....12bn and with nothing to show WOW!
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Humbercod
March 15, 2021, 2:23pm
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Quoted from KingstonMariner
If you think the NHS is crap and doesn’t deserve funding Humbo, you can always go and live in America.


This is one of the most dumbest reply’s I hear! I know your not the sharpest pencil in the box but you’ve certainly surprised me.

It’s a compulsory insurance scheme I’m entitled to criticise something I have to pay for, and why the USA with one of the worst private healthcare systems in the world?
This is where you show your lack of intelligence, why not mention New Zealand, Japan etc,etc or the many great European private healthcare systems?
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mariner91
March 15, 2021, 3:00pm
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Quoted from Humbercod


It’’s been well documented on the fraudulent and corrupt medical schools in places like India which is quite scary really when 38% of all NHS doctors gain their primary medical qualifications outside the UK.
Furthermore the majority of doctors struck off up to 75% have been trained abroad, even the Guardian covered this a few years back.




Like you Barra I’ve received good treatment from Foreign doctors on my last visit to hospital the Doctor was from Egypt funny enough and he was excellent, but on the other hand there has been times where I just couldn’t understand a word I was being told, one time the more I questioned him the more angry he got (obviously raised a complaint about him).

Rationing is about the ever increasing waiting lists which can mostly be down bad management. The Kings Fund wrote a paper on NHS rationing a few years ago and said as much. A quick google will tell that the Department of health and social care is responsible for NHS spending and rationing as opposed to insurance company’s and medical professionals setting realistic budgets for private health care.

It’s no surprise you find that the Torys are to blame again but if we look at the Labours period just between the years you state 1997 - 2010 then it really is a case of people in green house shouldn’t throw stones, I could list a number of all their blunders and incompetence but one thing really stands out, and that’s their NHS IT system! 12bn .....12bn and with nothing to show WOW!


Wait until you hear how much the malfunctioning track and trace cost.


Looking forward to a brighter future now Fenty has gone.
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Humbercod
March 15, 2021, 3:17pm
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Quoted from mariner91


Wait until you hear how much the malfunctioning track and trace cost.


Shocking yes but totally different circumstances, incomparable.
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barralad
March 15, 2021, 8:01pm
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Quoted from Humbercod


It’’s been well documented on the fraudulent and corrupt medical schools in places like India which is quite scary really when 38% of all NHS doctors gain their primary medical qualifications outside the UK.
Furthermore the majority of doctors struck off up to 75% have been trained abroad, even the Guardian covered this a few years back.




Like you Barra I’ve received good treatment from Foreign doctors on my last visit to hospital the Doctor was from Egypt funny enough and he was excellent, but on the other hand there has been times where I just couldn’t understand a word I was being told, one time the more I questioned him the more angry he got (obviously raised a complaint about him).

Rationing is about the ever increasing waiting lists which can mostly be down bad management. The Kings Fund wrote a paper on NHS rationing a few years ago and said as much. A quick google will tell that the Department of health and social care is responsible for NHS spending and rationing as opposed to insurance company’s and medical professionals setting realistic budgets for private health care.

It’s no surprise you find that the Torys are to blame again but if we look at the Labours period just between the years you state 1997 - 2010 then it really is a case of people in green house shouldn’t throw stones, I could list a number of all their blunders and incompetence but one thing really stands out, and that’s their NHS IT system! 12bn .....12bn and with nothing to show WOW!


The problems faced by the NHS can be traced back to the chronic underfunding of the service under the Thatcher and Major governments. The NHS Blair inherited in 1997 had waiting lists running into years. I was diagnosed in July 2001 with ischaemic heart disease and waited until August 2002 for treatment. On the day I had my treatment there were five other patients-all of whom were being treated privately. By the time I needed further treatment in 2009 the waiting time was down to nine weeks. The government had invested money in state of the art equipment in places like Castle Hill. On the day I was treated for the second time there were fifteen other people being treated for the same or similar conditions. In 2002 there were eight medical staff in the treatment room with me. By 2009 there were none. The procedure was done by two medics (one was being trained) in a room off at the side of the treatment room.
Since 2010 we've gone backwards. Even before Covid made its unwelcome appearance waiting times had rocketed. If the problems are down to bad management then you have to question why that didn't manifest itself between 1997-2010.
I've never said that New Labour were blameless but one also needs to question why, with all the advances in technology that since they made a big political splash of ending the work on the failed system have happened that we aren't much nearer the system that was envisaged.
I'm not at all sure how you can dismiss criticism of the monumental failure of Track and Trace as being different circumstances when we are talking about an eye-watering sum of money. There is one big difference. At least the NHS system was given to companies with a background in IT! The Labour government can be roundly criticised for continually altering the spec of what was needed.



The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.

Joseph Joubert.
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DB
March 16, 2021, 1:45am
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You all make interesting reading and not being red or blue I can see both sides. To me it would easier if it was a legal requirement for politicians to honour their election manifesto's, so what they say they would have to do.

(This thread is about NHS and nothing more so please don't go their.)

Election time comes and a party could offer to spend the current cost of the NHS plus inflation plus an extra X% on investment for the future, other parties could make their options along a similar road. These amounts would be binding on the victors.

Such a solution would give a far better funding and the electorate would be in control of spending,  be they blue or red.


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KingstonMariner
March 17, 2021, 12:44am
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Quoted from Humbercod


This is one of the most dumbest reply’s I hear! I know your not the sharpest pencil in the box but you’ve certainly surprised me.

It’s a compulsory insurance scheme I’m entitled to criticise something I have to pay for, and why the USA with one of the worst private healthcare systems in the world?
This is where you show your lack of intelligence, why not mention New Zealand, Japan etc,etc or the many great European private healthcare systems?


The NHS isn’t a compulsory insurance scheme. It’s funded by taxation. Turning it into one won’t make it any more efficient. I never said you weren’t entitled to criticise it.

The reason I mentioned the US is because that’s where your rationale was leading. I don’t have to mention any of the other countries you are now referring to. I’m happy with the way the NHS is set-up, more or less. Sure there is scope for improvement, but evolutionary change, not radical. If you’d like to explain how adopting the Japanese, or New Zealand or any other system would improve the NHS, I’d love to hear it.

I note in another post you mentioned the King’s Fund. What do they have to say? Can you reference their reports?



Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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KingstonMariner
March 17, 2021, 1:05am
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By the way Humbo, I do see that you can make jokes after all. Insurance companies setting realistic budgets 😂😂😂👍

If you really think that this will solve our rationing problem, I apologise for laughing. There are three main methods of rationing. One is to decide on the basis of need (more or less what we have), one is to do it on the basis of what people can afford (insurance is one way some people pay for their health), and the third is to make people wait until they get better anyway, die, or get their turn (though to be accurate, waiting is part of the armoury used by the NHS for non-life threatening things). If you leave it to the insurance model alone, you will get cost inflation as there is not the direct connection between the ultimate payer (ie who pays the premium) and the service provider. Also it introduces at least one other middleman - the insurance company who are doing it to make a profit, so another wedge is added to the cost. Because it rewards those who provide treatment to the ones who can afford the most, it means resources go into the things the better off want. Those who can’t afford the premiums get nowt. It leads to irrational decisions for the society as a whole. I get my cosmetic job done, but you don’t get the cancer treatment you need, so you are off work, unproductive and unable to support your family.

Costs also escalate because the insurance funded system is inherently more expensive to operate. It needs more accountants and admin than a straight tax-funded system. More people process more bits of ‘paper’ that have no close connection with providing treatment to people.

To avoid irrational outcomes of the private model, the state has to step in and organise things. It sets priorities. It assigns resources. It sets standards.  So the insurance just becomes a way of funding state directed healthcare. The state is setting broad parameters for who gets what - ie makes the rationing decision. To make sure everyone gets access, those countries who go down this route make everyone take out insurance. Effectively it’s a form of taxation. It mitigates the excesses of the US approach, but it still has some inherent inefficiencies.


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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ginnywings
March 17, 2021, 9:56am

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The American health model is just about the worst in the world. They take far more prescription drugs and pay way more for them than any other country, yet they are one of the unhealthiest countries on the planet.

The drug companies are a total monopoly and prices are set accordingly meaning your average citizen has been priced completely out of the market.

The drug runners over there no longer deal in recreational drugs, but smuggle prescription medicines from Canada and Mexico. It's truly shocking what the private medicine model has done and when Obama tried to change it, he met massive resistance from the powerful health lobbyists.

The Tories would love to get that private model going here and the American drug giants are itching to get their feet under the NHS table. They are already making inroads.
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