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European League moves closer.

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ginnywings
October 21, 2020, 10:46am

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I think this has been on the cards for years, but seems to be moving closer to reality,

Don't know what it would mean for the rest of the pyramid, but it would take a huge amount of money out of the English game. Not that it filters down our way of course.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54621189
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barrattstandman
October 21, 2020, 11:31am
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Easy way to stop is to throw them out of the premier league and bring up numbers from below.  That would make them think twice . How many fans can travel abroad every 2 weeks . Pie in the sky again. The fans the biggest loser.
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louth_in_the_south
October 21, 2020, 11:40am

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Yeah but it works in the USA so that’s fine ...................


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Ipswin
October 21, 2020, 11:41am
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Quoted from ginnywings
I think this has been on the cards for years, but seems to be moving closer to reality,

Don't know what it would mean for the rest of the pyramid, but it would take a huge amount of money out of the English game. Not that it filters down our way of course.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54621189


You don't think we'll be invited to be in it then?



On bended knee is no way to be free - Peter R de Vries

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WayneBurnettsJockstrap
October 21, 2020, 11:43am

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Quoted from Ipswin


You don't think we'll be invited to be in it then?



I reckon we will just miss out this time!

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WOZOFGRIMSBY
October 21, 2020, 11:45am

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Quoted from barrattstandman
Easy way to stop is to throw them out of the premier league and bring up numbers from below.  That would make them think twice . How many fans can travel abroad every 2 weeks . Pie in the sky again. The fans the biggest loser.


They don’t care because of tv revenue. The premier league turns clubs into green eyed monsters with all the money that is available. You only have to look at the bin dippers across the water for that.

Footballs heart and soul is being ripped away year by year, but, when you have ‘fans’ that live 4 hours away and only get to see them on their tv, why would the clubs care? As long as they get ground hoppers and tourists in every week paying inflated prices, why do they care? Football has been turned from a working mans game to a tv programme.

That’s what makes clubs like ours fu(king fantastic. I’d rather have a club and team that can bond with its support over a money crazed set of megalomaniacs any day

UTFM



He’s one of our loans
He’s one of our loans
Harvey Cartwright
He’s one of our loans
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GrimRob
October 21, 2020, 12:14pm

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18 teams would say how many from England? Even if it's Western Europe, you wouldn't get all of the Big 6 and maybe 3 or 4 at most, e.g.

England 3
Spain 3
Germany 3
Italy 3
France 1
Portugal 1
Belgium 1
Netherlands 1
Greece 1
Austria 1

OR

England 4
Spain 4
Germany 4
Italy 3
France 1
Others 2


I think they'd be better having 2 leagues of 18 and a post season, more American style.

I'd like to see all the top clubs disappear and the rump of the Premier League return to the EFL which would just be "proper" clubs supported by mainly local supporters.


'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.  
~ Alfred Lord Tennyson

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jamesgtfc
October 21, 2020, 12:52pm
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It would be good to see every other year in between the major tournaments as an end of season mini-league.

4 groups of 6, top 2 progress into a one legged knock out after playing eachother once.

Open it up to the Champions League and Europa League winners plus domestic cup winners. Might make teams take the FA Cup and League Cup a bit more seriously.

I'm totally against a permanent breakout from the English game.
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Posh Harry
October 21, 2020, 1:01pm
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Football is eating itself.
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ginnywings
October 21, 2020, 1:05pm

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Quoted from barrattstandman
Easy way to stop is to throw them out of the premier league and bring up numbers from below.  That would make them think twice . How many fans can travel abroad every 2 weeks . Pie in the sky again. The fans the biggest loser.


They wouldn't need to be thrown out. They want to leave and only play against clubs they see worthy of them, not your Burnley's and Fulham's. Neither do they care about fans, as the TV money is what they are after. Besides, with cheap flights all over Europe, the fans would still attend anyway, not to mention the tourist fans the big 6 attract.

I've thought for years that this would come about eventually and now they are openly discussing it. Money will always win in the end and a European Super League is too attractive for the money men to pass up. It wouldn't surprise me if we end up with franchises as more and more American money men move into "soccer". You could one day see a team relocate; nothing would surprise me.
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pen penfras
October 21, 2020, 1:21pm

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Quoted from GrimRob

I'd like to see all the top clubs disappear and the rump of the Premier League return to the EFL which would just be "proper" clubs supported by mainly local supporters.


There's an element of romanticism in that, but without the big 3 or 4, the tv money would probably only be worth 1/3 of what it is now. We'd end up with a lot less money and probably have to lose our youth team, which would be sad.

I can't see it happening anyway. It would be boring watching those teams play each other in a closed shop. UEFA aren't in favour and they understand that the lack of competition to appear in it would reduce the appeal to neutrals.
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Mallyner
October 21, 2020, 1:22pm
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Quoted from barrattstandman
Easy way to stop is to throw them out of the premier league and bring up numbers from below.  That would make them think twice . How many fans can travel abroad every 2 weeks . Pie in the sky again. The fans the biggest loser.


Prexit?  


Supporting Town for 65 years.  
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Boris Johnson
October 21, 2020, 1:43pm
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Will see if UEFA sanction it.....doubt it, but will that stop them?
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diehardmariner
October 21, 2020, 2:18pm
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Quoted from ginnywings


They wouldn't need to be thrown out. They want to leave and only play against clubs they see worthy of them, not your Burnley's and Fulham's. Neither do they care about fans, as the TV money is what they are after. Besides, with cheap flights all over Europe, the fans would still attend anyway, not to mention the tourist fans the big 6 attract.

I've thought for years that this would come about eventually and now they are openly discussing it. Money will always win in the end and a European Super League is too attractive for the money men to pass up. It wouldn't surprise me if we end up with franchises as more and more American money men move into "soccer". You could one day see a team relocate; nothing would surprise me.


Think that's already happened.

This has sat on the cards for a long, long time.  Interesting that the condemnation is from the leagues, not from the clubs.  Ultimately it's the leagues that will lose out.  La Liga would initially be a lot weaker without their blue chippers, as would the Prem, Ligue 1, Serie A etc...

The more and more stuff like this gets talked about the more I want them to just go.  Let them have whatever mega TV deal they want, let them eat themselves and we'll have our game back thank you very much.  The whole concept sounds entertaining enough, the best of the best in regular competition but the novelty would soon rub thin.

Personally I don't need to have the biggest and best clubs on my telly.  I've long enjoyed The Championship far more than I have the Premier League, equally so the most entertaining Premier League season was when Leicester won it.  Champions League wise I might watch the English teams but even then I'm usually gesturing an interest in it.  
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The Yard Dog
October 21, 2020, 2:52pm
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Cannot see France, Belgium, Portugal, Netherlands happy with just one from their league.
Then you have Germany, Italy, England & Spain who decides which teams are invited to join from their leagues, some big teams will not be happy, being left out.
Then you have Celtic and Rangers, will not be happy with no european football.
Then they are all the other clubs from the rest of Western Europe and the Eastern Europe.
Then you have the fans, not many home games, sorry fans do not come into it.
With Brexit and us coming out of Europe, will that have any bearing on travel around Europe.
Is it going to a closed shop, or is they going to be relegation, who promoted and from which leagues.
Without relegation, its going to go stale after a while.
When you start thinking about it, its not simple.

Who are the big six in England? Man City and Chelsea are only recently classed as big clubs, before the money man, under achievers.

Personally I wish the likes Liverpool, Man Utd, Man City etc went and formed a so called elite european league, if they did, NO RETURN CLAUSE, if it does not work, and banned from the FA Cup.

Then we can re-structure our football league and negotiate our broadcasting rights, for the benefit of all football teams, not just for Man Utd and Liverpool.

The erosion of the football in this country has been going on for to long now.
First the bigger clubs, wanted all revenue from home gates.
Then the birth of the Premiership league.
No pre-season friendlies with the bigger clubs anymore, too busy globe trotting, only send academy teams these days
Then replays for the League Cup are axed, Premiership clubs complaining playing to many games, happy to travel all over Europe playing.
Influx of foreign players.
De-valuing the FA Cup, by playing a weaken teams
Foreign managers calling for a winter break, so that they can go play somewhere else in the world.
Games are being scheduled without any thought as to how away fans can get there and back in the same day.
Games re-arranged at short notice to fulfilll live television broadcasting, with no thought to fans who have already made travel arrangements, well in advance.
FA Cup replays axed after the 3rd round
Under 23's teams competeting in domestic cup competetions.


These are the Founder members of the Football league
Aston Villa, Everton, Stoke, Blackburn Rovers, Preston North End, Accrington, Bolton Wanderers, Burnley, Notts County, Derby County, West Bromwich Albion and Wolverhampton Wanderers.

Former founders of the Alliance League
Ardwick, Birmingham St George's, Bootle, Burton Swifts, Crewe Alexandra, Darwen, Grimsby Town, Lincoln City, Long Eaton Rangers, Newton Heath, Nottingham Forest, Small Heath, Stoke, Sunderland Albion, The Wednesday & Walsall Town Swifts.

The Likes of  Tottenham formed 1882, Arsenal 1886, Liverpool 1892, Chelsea 1905, Forest Green Rovers were formed before the likes of Liverpool and Chelsea.

Provided that we get through Covid-19.

We will still have the best football pyamid in the world, even without the likes Liverpool, Man Utd if they breakaway form the English league system.

The point I am trying to make is that we had football league before the likes of Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea & Tottenham formed their clubs.

Over the years the names have changed, and some of the founder members long since gone, but they always news clubs waiting for their chance to climb the football pyamid. The likes of York, Notts County, Stockport, Halifax, Torquay, Chesterfield have lost their league status, to be replaced by the likes of Crawley, Fleetwood, MK Dons, Salford City, Stevenage & Harrogate.

So goodbye Liverpool & Man Utd

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louth_in_the_south
October 21, 2020, 5:27pm

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Quoted from ginnywings


They wouldn't need to be thrown out. They want to leave and only play against clubs they see worthy of them, not your Burnley's and Fulham's. Neither do they care about fans, as the TV money is what they are after. Besides, with cheap flights all over Europe, the fans would still attend anyway, not to mention the tourist fans the big 6 attract.

I've thought for years that this would come about eventually and now they are openly discussing it. Money will always win in the end and a European Super League is too attractive for the money men to pass up. It wouldn't surprise me if we end up with franchises as more and more American money men move into "soccer". You could one day see a team relocate; nothing would surprise me.


Oh yeah because the budget airline companies wouldn’t ramp up the fares as soon as the fixture list was released would they ?!!


Lower F5
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Yossarian
October 21, 2020, 5:44pm
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The reality of these big European league ideas is that Man Utd v PSG or Chelsea v Inter...\Barca v Bayern....week in week out-   they are not special anymore.  They just become yet another game.

Just look at the champions league group phase which is basically dull and a waste of time.  I dont even watch the champions league until about the quarter finals now.

Soon as you get a big league table a lot of the games become meaningless.

The fact that these "big games" are more common place now means they lose their value;
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TownSNAFU5
October 21, 2020, 5:59pm
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The Yard Dog,  a comprehensive and just summary.

Harrogate should not have been allowed into the FL. 😟

I saw recently that 14 teams that are in or have been in the PL were in the third tier when it was started.  Football fortunes easily change.  Villa and Forest have both won the European Cup.  Leicester won the title.  None of these clubs would ever be in the top 4 or 6 for making policy.

Also seen that many European football officials admire the current PL TV deals and voting structures.  One club one vote.  They strongly dislike the Spanish model whereby the top 2 clubs get around 90% of the TV money.  This is a cartel and helps maintain the status quo.  Very unhealthy, uncompetitive and unpopular.

Strange then that the PL want drastic change - which they expected the other clubs to approve!

There is also some evidence that the big TV money for football will reduce in future.
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Gaffer58
October 21, 2020, 6:20pm
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Simple way of stopping all this European league, the big stitch up etc, ensure that no Americans get to own clubs, let them go back to the good old US of A and play with their NFL teams, if they get bored of the Dallas Cowboys they can always move them to say New York, no thought for the local fans at all.
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pen penfras
October 21, 2020, 6:31pm

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Quoted from TownSNAFU5
The Yard Dog,  a comprehensive and just summary.

Harrogate should not have been allowed into the FL. 😟

I saw recently that 14 teams that are in or have been in the PL were in the third tier when it was started.  Football fortunes easily change.  Villa and Forest have both won the European Cup.  Leicester won the title.  None of these clubs would ever be in the top 4 or 6 for making policy.

Also seen that many European football officials admire the current PL TV deals and voting structures.  One club one vote.  They strongly dislike the Spanish model whereby the top 2 clubs get around 90% of the TV money.  This is a cartel and helps maintain the status quo.  Very unhealthy, uncompetitive and unpopular.

Strange then that the PL want drastic change - which they expected the other clubs to approve!

There is also some evidence that the big TV money for football will reduce in future.


The PL don't want drastic change. The big 6 clubs want drastic change, so they get to call the shots and benefit themselves.
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Lincoln Mariner 56
October 21, 2020, 6:38pm
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Certainly against formation of any such league and as a stand alone league I cannot see how it would succeed. Only one side can win this European league so 15 clubs that either win or close to winning their respective domestic leagues and cups will be winning sod all. Give to or three years of that and how many fans will want to see their side who always finish in the bottom half of this new league.

Playing in a domestic and European league would mean playing, even with reduced league numbers, sixty matches so no chance for cup games and how would this affect the International calendar?

Works in USA because the worst clubs get to sign the best young players to help even up standards which won’t work in Europe.

Just can’t see it happening and if it does no interest from me and I guess most long suffering football fans who started watching the game fifty years ago.
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toontown
October 21, 2020, 7:25pm
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Interesting that only 5 English teams are included - which one of the big 6 would be cut adrift lol.

The way it works in the USA is that the worst teams get the best drafts from the college's. That can't happen in Europe as it doesn't work that way. So it would probably soon get boring even for big club fans. Lots of these teams would soon have to get used to being nobody's on the new league with no chance of winning whatsoever as they would be well behind the even bigger clubs. Maybe that doesn't bother the money men at these clubs tho.

I do seem to recall though that there is something in the definition or understanding of European sport that it was based on relegation and promotion. So successful club's are allowed to dominate recruitment and earnings (unlike usa) but have to accept the miniscule possibility of them being relegated in return (unlike usa). I might be mistaken though.
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GrimRob
October 21, 2020, 9:07pm

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Quoted from pen penfras


There's an element of romanticism in that, but without the big 3 or 4, the tv money would probably only be worth 1/3 of what it is now. We'd end up with a lot less money and probably have to lose our youth team, which would be sad.

I can't see it happening anyway. It would be boring watching those teams play each other in a closed shop. UEFA aren't in favour and they understand that the lack of competition to appear in it would reduce the appeal to neutrals.


If you have top 8 go to the post-season say and a couple of relegation places, with some kind of Europa League competition leading to relegation play-offs with the bottom 2 there would be plenty of play for. Nobody complains NFL and MLB are boring because of no relegation, the post-season is structured in such a way that there is always hope for quite a lot of clubs until late on (just like our play-offs). Personally I'd much rather watch games like Liverpool v Bayern Munich that two English clubs who I hate play one another like Liverpool v Man City (or any other combination of the big 6) for the simple reason I will always want the English club to win.

The TV money might not be as bad as you think, especially if it is spread around more fairly between the 92 league clubs (assuming the league expands back to that size, maybe with L1 North and L1 South). If everyone gets a bit less money then it would just be reflected in lower players wages, so might not work out that much different anyway.


'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.  
~ Alfred Lord Tennyson

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Gaffer58
October 21, 2020, 9:56pm
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And once they’ve got their European league just wait until certain clubs start pushing for a world league, eventually if they think there’s more money available then a universe league will be suggested.
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aldi_01
October 22, 2020, 7:30am

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The minute those clubs who normally win a league title or at least a trophy every season suddenly start finishing in the bottom half etc. they’ll soon regret their move.


'the poor and the needy are selfish and greedy'...well done Mozza
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supertown
October 22, 2020, 8:49am
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Everyone seems to be focusing on the clubs , what about the players , will they want it ? What would be the attraction (other than money, which they have lots of anyway) of signing for a bottom feeding team in the euro league ? Lots of travel and time away from the family with little or no chance of success
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louth_in_the_south
October 22, 2020, 8:50am

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Quoted from aldi_01
The minute those clubs who normally win a league title or at least a trophy every season suddenly start finishing in the bottom half etc. they’ll soon regret their move.


Their owners won’t give a sh.it , as long as the £££££££ is rolling in . Doesn’t matter what their fans think to being in the bottom half of the league they’re in .


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toontown
October 22, 2020, 12:27pm
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Quoted from louth_in_the_south


Their owners won’t give a sh.it , as long as the £££££££ is rolling in . Doesn’t matter what their fans think to being in the bottom half of the league they’re in .


Exactly.

The fans are irrelevant. Those wanting to go to games even more so - the money comes from tv viewing figures.
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mimma
October 22, 2020, 12:38pm
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It's no coincidence that the architects of this are American billionaires who have bought themselves into the Football League. They have absolutely no idea about English football and its league structure, or what it means to the fans. The "big six" could change in a few short years, so Man. Utd. for example could be frozen out, while Everton could become one of the big six.

To me it looks like they want to pull up the ladder to protect their own self interest over competition, buy their place at the top table instead of winning it.
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mimma
October 22, 2020, 12:39pm
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It's no coincidence that the architects of this are American billionaires who have bought themselves into the Football League. They have absolutely no idea about English football and its league structure, or what it means to the fans. The "big six" could change in a few short years, so Man. Utd. for example could be frozen out, while Everton could become one of the big six.

To me it looks like they want to pull up the ladder to protect their own self interest over competition, buy their place at the top table instead of winning it.
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RichMariner
October 22, 2020, 3:34pm
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Before the L2 season started I had no idea who would win the league. Still don't. A lot of people thought Bolton.

You can make some general guesses as to which clubs are likely to be there or thereabouts; similar for relegation. But we exist in an unpredictable league — I'm sure a few of us always consider this could be the year we make a tilt for the title!

And then we find ourselves in the bottom two, like under Newell.

It's a real shame that unpredictability doesn't exist the higher up the league you go. Villa have just won their first four games and in any other league, when asked whether you think you've got a shot at the title, Dean Smith would have said yes.

But the Premier League bleeds even the biggest dreamers dry, so instead he laughed it off — even after a mention of Leicester.

That, to me, is the hallmark of a league that's boring. No doubting the quality, but a few years ago I saw Garforth Town draw 4-4 with Harrogate Railway Athletic in the freezing cold for £5 and the quality on show was abysmal.

But it was entertaining and totally unpredictable (the equalising goal in the last minute was actually superb!). That's what I want from football.

Edit: I'm aware Villa beat Liverpool 7-2, and there are many examples of the Premier League being unpredictable. It can be unpredictable, it's just not very often.


"Don't shine that light in my face, mate - I've just lost a pint of blood."
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Bigdog
October 22, 2020, 4:20pm
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Quoted from ginnywings


They wouldn't need to be thrown out. They want to leave and only play against clubs they see worthy of them, not your Burnley's and Fulham's. Neither do they care about fans, as the TV money is what they are after. Besides, with cheap flights all over Europe, the fans would still attend anyway, not to mention the tourist fans the big 6 attract.

I've thought for years that this would come about eventually and now they are openly discussing it. Money will always win in the end and a European Super League is too attractive for the money men to pass up. It wouldn't surprise me if we end up with franchises as more and more American money men move into "soccer". You could one day see a team relocate; nothing would surprise me.


The five clubs involved have intimated that they would not withdraw from the the Premier League even if they played in a European Super League, in effect using the Premier League for their B teams. Incredibly pompous and at that point the English game should say no, realise the English game's pyramid worth and strength and set them adrift. After the initial novelty, an eighteen team European Super League will become incredibly stale while the competitiveness left in the Premier League and below will provide a more exciting sporting spectacle. Can't remember the last time I watched a Champions League game. Anyone else already bored of pretty much the same six teams filling the the top six places in the Premier League? Anyone else much prefer watching Championship games over the past few seasons?

Liverpool. Manure, Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal leaving the EPL could be just what the English football industry needs and I hope we don't get to the stage where the powers that be in effect let them use the English pyramid for their B teams. There'll be less TV money around, but the funding won't drop off the end of the cliff like some would expect. English football would still have a lot to offer the paying public, and it could be a watershed for a meaningful and fair recallibration for all concerned..

Everton, Spurs, Villa, Leicester, Wolves, Leeds and probably half a dozen other clubs battling for the Premier League title would be fascinating and there would still be enough clubs around Europe to have a high quality competitive European competition. Fresh scenarios to interest and new clubs to learn more about rather than having Barca, Bayern, Real etc being shoved down our throats on a daily basis. I wouldn't be fussed about us losing "the big five" and they can take their greedy ignorant owners with them..
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KingstonMariner
October 22, 2020, 6:16pm
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Hope they will firk  off and leave the rest of English football


Through the door there came familiar laughter,
I saw your face and heard you call my name.
Oh my friend we're older but no wiser,
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
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