Has the penny dropped yet amongst those of you who wanted to overturn the referendum result, that you cannot deny the electorate and get away with it?
Has the penny dropped that each and every vote counts the same? You don't have to be clever, or have a degree to make your vote count. Democracy is for us all.
People came out in huge numbers to choose between staying in or leaving the EU, and we chose to leave. That wasn't good enough for you lot though, you thought you knew better.
Brexiteers like me dared to say democracy should be upheld, and even that Nigel Farage had every right to hold a meeting at BP, and was met with a barrage of abuse for my trouble. I suspect this approach from the left has been replicated throughout all forms of social media. It was replicated even by the official opposition who basically said to their heartlands that they didn't give a stuff about what they had voted for, they were determined to have a second referendum with a choice of remain versus remain. Not a good strategy.
Most people however don't give a jot about social media. They live their lives as they see it. They see their towns changing due to mass immigration, and not for the better. They know there are stresses in the NHS, but they also know that adding millions to the population every few years makes the problem a whole lot worse.
If Labour had respected the result straight away in June 2016, they could have spent their time advocating their policies but instead chose to deny the peoples choice with the blindingly obvious and inevitable result.
How any political strategist could advocate a policy of ignoring a democratic decision made by the British electorate, which included huge swathes of Labour heartland constituencies is unfathomable.
Here here. The working man has been abandoned in favour of the Liberal socialist metropolitan types. The working man has voiced his displeasure at the ballot box and all those democracy denying 'I know better than my constituents' types have been kicked to the kerb and found themselves out of a job.
The majority can be (and are) wrong. But fair enough, you got what you wanted. This liberal metropolitan elitist has an excellent bupa policy, a globally diversified investment portfolio and I can go work in our Cyprus office if I want. So let’s see how it plays out for us all now you’ve got your way
Quoted from John Fenty, April 2013
I deconstructed the flag to the point where it was safe and couldn’t be considered a danger
And yet only 48% of the votes in this election went to parties that wanted Brexit. The whole voting system is skewed and half the population have no voice. At least you were right though, so that's ok.
And yet only 48% of the votes in this election went to parties that wanted Brexit. The whole voting system is skewed and half the population have no voice. At least you were right though, so that's ok.
I have to say that that is a typical remain response.
No one can really know as there are likely many Labour voters who were leavers but would still vote Labour. You could also make the point that the Scottish Nationalists only got 45% of the Scottish vote but they are saying that they now deserve another referendum on independence.
Also there was a larger number of voters in the referendum than in this election so who knows where their votes would have gone to.
If the Scottish Nationalists get their way and achieve independence then that will likely end in a Tory Government for years as in the new Parliament there would be a Tory majority of 127.
Question for you guys who used to vote labour but didn’t this time. Once we leave the EU and a more centrist leader comes in for the next election, will it be back to labour? Or have you converted to the Tories for the foreseeable?
Question for you guys who used to vote labour but didn’t this time. Once we leave the EU and a more centrist leader comes in for the next election, will it be back to labour? Or have you converted to the Tories for the foreseeable?
There needs to be a change in Labour leadership, I've never seen Labour such disarray.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
An in/out referendum which leads to half of the electorate being ignored was a terrible idea in the first place, especially what 'out' actually meant was never discussed beforehand. This is still the case.
Also, as has been noted many times before, we're already past the time when the remain vote would be likely to be higher, simply due to the change in demographics i.e. leavers dying in greater numbers than remainers reaching voting age.
Remarkable how the pensioners, who will be with us for less time than the young, are those deciding what occurs. No doubt, the young will have had a much lower turnout once again, so I suppose they only have themselves to blame. Of course, if Brexit is a disaster as remains possible (no pun intended), it is pretty obvious who will be due the blame.
An in/out referendum which leads to half of the electorate being ignored was a terrible idea in the first place, especially what 'out' actually meant was never discussed beforehand. This is still the case.
Also, as has been noted many times before, we're already past the time when the remain vote would be likely to be higher, simply due to the change in demographics i.e. leavers dying in greater numbers than remainers reaching voting age.
Remarkable how the pensioners, who will be with us for less time than the young, are those deciding what occurs. No doubt, the young will have had a much lower turnout once again, so I suppose they only have themselves to blame. Of course, if Brexit is a disaster as remains possible (no pun intended), it is pretty obvious who will be due the blame.
Interesting times ahead.
So what are you saying that people over a certain age should not be allowed to vote if in the highly unlikely event there was another referendum?
PS I get this awful vision of you giving it whatfor with your right hand* as you find another image to post.
The nuts and bolts of what leaving the EU would look like was down to Parliament, the question on the paper was stay in the EU or Leave. If the EU wanted us to stay they would have fought to keep us instead they looked to punish us and aided with the MP's who went against the fact that they all said they would implement the choice is why we ended up with a deal less favorable than we did for the following reasons.
1. If the EU didn't view the UK as a cash cow but a valued partner then we would be happy with a deal that suits both sides, not the case though is it.
2. No deal was forced off the table, how stupid do you have to be to go into negotiations without the ability to say, you know what I don't like this I'll walk away. All that resulted in was strengthening the hand of the EU, if you can't see that then maybe you should consider not voting at all next time.
3. Self serving MP's working against the government causing the government to look for a larger majority that ultimately back fired because of the fact remoaners would not accept the fact they didn't get what they wanted.
4. The claims of people didn't know what they were voting for is another ignorant claim as people knew that leaving the EU, immigrants outside of the EU couldn't come into the UK unchecked, unrestricted through travelling through Europe, especially after Merkel opened the door and come on in. We would take back the sovereignty that was given away without our consent, the generation that signed up to the common market didn't sign up to a political union, that was done by successive governments otherwise it would just be the common market and that would suit our needs and no need to change.
4. The problem with the EU is that it has plans for a federal state of Europe. Obviously that means more power to the EU commission and less control for Parliament.
Bleating on about how old people will decide the future for the young, get a grip. Pensioners by their very age, have lived through pre common market, common market, political union. If their view is we are better outside the EU then you should listen. If the young didn't turn out to vote like 2016, don't lay the blame at the pensioners for the faults of the young and less knowledgeable about life in the UK over the last 50 years.
Overall the people to blame are remoaners for trying to derail the will of the majority and sabotaging the UK's negotiating position. It was the remoaners who started the bad mouthing and causing the split the nations opinions on Brexit. Had remoaners accepted the defeat and let the government go to the EU with the majority and no deal on the table they would have got something better than we got and subsequently negotiated. A divided nation is easy to defeat, especially when there is an enemy within helping the other side.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
An in/out referendum which leads to half of the electorate being ignored was a terrible idea in the first place, especially what 'out' actually meant was never discussed beforehand. This is still the case.
Also, as has been noted many times before, we're already past the time when the remain vote would be likely to be higher, simply due to the change in demographics i.e. leavers dying in greater numbers than remainers reaching voting age.
Remarkable how the pensioners, who will be with us for less time than the young, are those deciding what occurs. No doubt, the young will have had a much lower turnout once again, so I suppose they only have themselves to blame. Of course, if Brexit is a disaster as remains possible (no pun intended), it is pretty obvious who will be due the blame.
Interesting times ahead.
As someone from the leftish side of politics who voted leave you fail to understand the basic things. As a country we voted leave,saying people didn’t know what they voted for us patronising. That battle was lost 3 years ago , the country needs Corbyns policies in my opinion but I many wanted to fight a lost battle again. Still embarrassed my hometown is now Tory even though I hope it works out for everyone there, when people think a lying clown is the best option it really is time to despair,
As someone from the leftish side of politics who voted leave you fail to understand the basic things. As a country we voted leave,saying people didn’t know what they voted for us patronising. That battle was lost 3 years ago , the country needs Corbyns policies in my opinion but I many wanted to fight a lost battle again. Still embarrassed my hometown is now Tory even though I hope it works out for everyone there, when people think a lying clown is the best option it really is time to despair,
It's sad day for British politics when the choice is between a lying clown and terrorist sympathizer.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
Question for you guys who used to vote labour but didn’t this time. Once we leave the EU and a more centrist leader comes in for the next election, will it be back to labour? Or have you converted to the Tories for the foreseeable?
Never mind 'centrist' (whatever that means), someone vaguely competent would be enough for most. The two major parties ran dreadful campaigns, ducking scrutiny, pathetically claiming they are the victims of media bias (like Trump), making endless fantasy spending promises they can't keep, all cheered on by an irrelevant bunch of toxic, needy, attention-seeking social media morons. Who wants to vote for all that? I didn't.
I guess the answer to your question will depend on whether under Corbyn's replacement the Labour Party continues to be run by the same clique of North London-based, public school-educated Stalinists and assorted Marxists who claim to speak for the working class but whose policies appear more focused on middle class giveaways. If it is, it will slide further into irrelevance, eating itself.
The nuts and bolts of what leaving the EU would look like was down to Parliament, the question on the paper was stay in the EU or Leave. If the EU wanted us to stay they would have fought to keep us instead they looked to punish us and aided with the MP's who went against the fact that they all said they would implement the choice is why we ended up with a deal less favorable than we did for the following reasons.
1. If the EU didn't view the UK as a cash cow but a valued partner then we would be happy with a deal that suits both sides, not the case though is it.
2. No deal was forced off the table, how stupid do you have to be to go into negotiations without the ability to say, you know what I don't like this I'll walk away. All that resulted in was strengthening the hand of the EU, if you can't see that then maybe you should consider not voting at all next time.
3. Self serving MP's working against the government causing the government to look for a larger majority that ultimately back fired because of the fact remoaners would not accept the fact they didn't get what they wanted.
4. The claims of people didn't know what they were voting for is another ignorant claim as people knew that leaving the EU, immigrants outside of the EU couldn't come into the UK unchecked, unrestricted through travelling through Europe, especially after Merkel opened the door and come on in. We would take back the sovereignty that was given away without our consent, the generation that signed up to the common market didn't sign up to a political union, that was done by successive governments otherwise it would just be the common market and that would suit our needs and no need to change.
4. The problem with the EU is that it has plans for a federal state of Europe. Obviously that means more power to the EU commission and less control for Parliament.
Bleating on about how old people will decide the future for the young, get a grip. Pensioners by their very age, have lived through pre common market, common market, political union. If their view is we are better outside the EU then you should listen. If the young didn't turn out to vote like 2016, don't lay the blame at the pensioners for the faults of the young and less knowledgeable about life in the UK over the last 50 years.
Overall the people to blame are remoaners for trying to derail the will of the majority and sabotaging the UK's negotiating position. It was the remoaners who started the bad mouthing and causing the split the nations opinions on Brexit. Had remoaners accepted the defeat and let the government go to the EU with the majority and no deal on the table they would have got something better than we got and subsequently negotiated. A divided nation is easy to defeat, especially when there is an enemy within helping the other side.
I agree with all of that, particularly your last paragraph.
Even Michael Heseltine (like the last Japnese soldier in the jungle) has at last conceded defeat, and the will of the people must be respected.
As the realisation of defeat becomes clearer and even die hard remainers accept the new norm, watch things change. The EU suddenly do not hold all the cards; they (the EU) have accepted that there is no chance of revoking article 50 and although tough, negotiations will be much more cordial.
As you point out, all this is what should have happened once the result was known. Unless we have losers consent, then we have no democracy.
For the record, I am not advocating that remain supporters have to stop campaigning, if that is what they wish. Once we have formally left the EU they can campaign for us to rejoin, again if they think so strongly about it, just as leave supporters campaigned (in some cases for decades) to leave.
As someone from the leftish side of politics who voted leave you fail to understand the basic things. As a country we voted leave,saying people didn’t know what they voted for us patronising. That battle was lost 3 years ago , the country needs Corbyns policies in my opinion but I many wanted to fight a lost battle again. Still embarrassed my hometown is now Tory even though I hope it works out for everyone there, when people think a lying clown is the best option it really is time to despair,
I wouldn't be embarrassed, it is what the people voted for. What is embarrassing is that after nearly eight decades of a Grimsby Labour MP, the town is still the "go-to" place for the media when running a story about left-behind towns.
I find it laughable that you think the number of immigrants is going to reduce. There will be a lot of unhappy Brexiteers in 5 years time when they realise they’ve got just as many immigrants but just from different countries.
The simple fact is that the country needs immigrants and they are massively beneficial to the economy - contributing a surplus of 15 billion a year in taxes. The amount of immigrants has not been a problem, it has been the lack of investment of the money generated in increased infrastructure and public services to cope with the increase in population by the party you’ve just voted back in.
I find it laughable that you think the number of immigrants is going to reduce. There will be a lot of unhappy Brexiteers in 5 years time when they realise they’ve got just as many immigrants but just from different countries.
The simple fact is that the country needs immigrants and they are massively beneficial to the economy - contributing a surplus of 15 billion a year in taxes. The amount of immigrants has not been a problem, it has been the lack of investment of the money generated in increased infrastructure and public services to cope with the increase in population by the party you’ve just voted back in.
I haven't seen anywhere that immigrants aren't welcome or needed. The numbers do need to be reduced to a manageable level as free movement stops that, this has been especially felt in Boston. For our economy to thrive we need attract the brightest and skills we currently are short of, what we don't need is low skilled, criminals, these can be filtered out.
It has been said that a net migration of 50,000 a year like post WW2 is something has proven to be manageable.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
I agree with all of that, particularly your last paragraph.
Even Michael Heseltine (like the last Japnese soldier in the jungle) has at last conceded defeat, and the will of the people must be respected.
As the realisation of defeat becomes clearer and even die hard remainers accept the new norm, watch things change. The EU suddenly do not hold all the cards; they (the EU) have accepted that there is no chance of revoking article 50 and although tough, negotiations will be much more cordial.
As you point out, all this is what should have happened once the result was known. Unless we have losers consent, then we have no democracy.
For the record, I am not advocating that remain supporters have to stop campaigning, if that is what they wish. Once we have formally left the EU they can campaign for us to rejoin, again if they think so strongly about it, just as leave supporters campaigned (in some cases for decades) to leave.
The bit I highlighted in your post is exactly the point I was trying to make, democracy works when the side who effectively lost consent, remoaners never have.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
I haven't seen anywhere that immigrants aren't welcome or needed. The numbers do need to be reduced to a manageable level as free movement stops that, this has been especially felt in Boston. For our economy to thrive we need attract the brightest and skills we currently are short of, what we don't need is low skilled, criminals, these can be filtered out.
It has been said that a net migration of 50,000 a year like post WW2 is something has proven to be manageable.
We have already been taking way more than that number in from non eu countries where we do have a points system. Plus Boris has scrapped the Tory target now also. So the punters that arry arry was talking about earlier are going to be disappointed.
The bit I highlighted in your post is exactly the point I was trying to make, democracy works when the side who effectively lost consent, remoaners never have.
Is it not the entire basis of democracy to allow people to hold an opposite opinion and therefore continue to oppose and withold consent even if they are in the monority.
It won't matter at all now the Conservatives can simply get everything through on the nod anyway so provided the remainers don't get silly and don't start say a campaign of civil disobedience surely they can just carry on being dissatisfied with the outcome, they can't influence anything any more and will have to take whatever they are served up.
On bended knee is no way to be free - Peter R de Vries
Is it not the entire basis of democracy to allow people to hold an opposite opinion and therefore continue to oppose and withold consent even if they are in the monority.
It won't matter at all now the Conservatives can simply get everything through on the nod anyway so provided the remainers don't get silly and don't start say a campaign of civil disobedience surely they can just carry on being dissatisfied with the outcome, they can't influence anything any more and will have to take whatever they are served up.
No, when the loser withholds consent that's not democracy, for democracy to work, what the majority voted for needs to be implemented especially when other parties say they will respect and uphold the decision, that's not just the referendum but general election too. Leave won the most votes as did the Tories.
The campaigning for the losing side should be started as soon as the winning sides decision has been implemented, otherwise what is the point of voting.
Lets say the Euro collapses, as this was part of claim from some economists, and to save the EU, the UK was offered very favourable terms far better than what we have before we leave the EU, we could vote on a return to full membership should it suit our needs.
I think it is fair to say that the reason we are in the position we are in now with a Tory majority is a hard lesson for the remoaners, as this is ultimately their fault, they will reap what they sow.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
The Tories won 44% of the votes from those who voted in the election but that represents only 29.5% of the total population,
I would say Johnson should take note but of course as he now has 5 years he can do whatever he likes with no fear of opposition so what the majority voted for will be implemented
On bended knee is no way to be free - Peter R de Vries
The Tories won 44% of the votes from those who voted in the election but that represents only 29.5% of the total population,
I would say Johnson should take note but of course as he now has 5 years he can do whatever he likes with no fear of opposition so what the majority voted for will be implemented
Our Parliament is won on seats, not numbers of people, this is how the election has been run since the year dot, didn't labour say they were going to change that, wonder what happened there, maybe because the majority they had at the time suited them.
The number of seats lost to the Tories in Labour heart lands is the most shocking thing about this general election. People who when interviewed said they voted Tory and didn't feel good about it is another question why people went against their core values to vote for a party they thought they would never vote for.
I would agree that Borris should take note and he should also look to redistribute the wealth generated in London to up North, will he, only time will tell, I don't think he will. Incidentally did Blair look after the north when he was in the hot seat for 10 years, I don't recall anything he did for the north or this area.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
The Tories won 44% of the votes from those who voted in the election but that represents only 29.5% of the total population,
I would say Johnson should take note but of course as he now has 5 years he can do whatever he likes with no fear of opposition so what the majority voted for will be implemented
I have seen that argument many times before about a minority of the population supporting the winning position.
Trouble is, is it always said by those who just lost the election.referendum/raffle*
*delete as appropriate.
Of course, even less percentage of the population voted for the losing side.
An in/out referendum which leads to half of the electorate being ignored was a terrible idea in the first place, especially what 'out' actually meant was never discussed beforehand. This is still the case.
Also, as has been noted many times before, we're already past the time when the remain vote would be likely to be higher, simply due to the change in demographics i.e. leavers dying in greater numbers than remainers reaching voting age.
Remarkable how the pensioners, who will be with us for less time than the young, are those deciding what occurs. No doubt, the young will have had a much lower turnout once again, so I suppose they only have themselves to blame. Of course, if Brexit is a disaster as remains possible (no pun intended), it is pretty obvious who will be due the blame.
Interesting times ahead.
Will you, as one Town fan to another, ever admit to being on the losing side? You lost, fair and square.This time you are trying to pin the blame on pensioners for God's sake.
It is so fundamental to democracy I am amazed you can't see it; losing is part and parcel of the democratic process.
All your energies should go to understanding why the left is losing every argument. Take Paul Mason on Newsnight last night - he seemed bewildered that the view on the much maligned doorstop did not match his world view! His attitude is to change the mindset of normal folk, who on the doorstep told him they don't want mass unlimited immigration, they don't think multiculturism has been a success, and they want their potential leaders to be upbeat and patriotic. What he should be doing, is moving towards the people, not asking the people to move to him.
Politics is about real people, and how they see the world. They are not too bothered about how a graph can show that actually they are "wrong"; what they see with their own eyes can be disproved with a graph or two, or statistics from some "independent" think tank or other (but when you dig deeper, you find they are funded by some pro left or pro EU organisation, or from the other side of the argument.)
All this talk about how many voted for a tory government
If Boris improves the run down towns like Grimsby.
He might well get another 5years or more.
The turnout was just over 67% of which 44% voted Tory meaning 29.5% of the national electorate supported the Tory party
The Tories will do intercourse all for Grimsby (or any of the other areas they are currently fawning over simply because they elected a Tory MP) Grimsby and the North East will be forgotten within 12 months.
I will be interested to see what Johnson does for those in Sunderland who lose their jobs at the Nissan plant after Brexit
But then we are not affected as we live in Sleepy Suffolk so intercourse everyone else eh?
Unfortunately I fear the Conservatives will get more than another 5 years, they will still be in power long after you and I are dead
On bended knee is no way to be free - Peter R de Vries
Boundary changes, changes to the Fixed Terms Parliament act, ambiguous pledges to change the relationship between the courts and Parliament all included in the Tory manifesto. Decades of Tory rule to come.
Boundary changes, changes to the Fixed Terms Parliament act, ambiguous pledges to change the relationship between the courts and Parliament all included in the Tory manifesto. Decades of Tory rule to come.
From their point of view Labour had a wonderful opportunity.
Even a casual glance at the "Brexit map" of the UK showed huge swathes of the country who voted leave. Practically all their heartlands voted to leave the EU after a democratic decision of the public.
The obvious thing to do was to accept the result, insist on losers consent and get the backing of a lot of their natural voters; a sensible manifesto and perhaps, just perhaps the Corbyn factor would not have been so decisive.
Sadly for them, the Islington set thought it would be a hoot to move towards a second referendum. As soon as they did that, it was all over for them in Grimsby and places like it throughout the UK.
I have even heard Labour spokesmen say that although towns like Grimsby voted leave, the Labour voters didn't...Obviously not all Labour voters wanted to leave but a substantial number of their natural supporters would, so they were on the back foot before a ball was kicked as it were. The Islington set were blisfully unaware that although all Labour voters didn't vote leave, they certainly did not like the idea of a democratic vote being set aside in the guise of a second referendum.
So many mistakes, such a lack of self awareness, talking amongst themselves endlessly about every hard luck story going whilst the vast majority of the electorate just got on with their lives, with a non-patriotic leader who no one has ever seen smile, who was describing the UK in terms that most people did not recognise.
So yes, the Conservative party take the spoils, and will obviously do everything they can to skew the odds in their favour for subsequent elections, but to be honest, unless the Labour party comes to its senses, or its moderate MP's move en masse to a new party it will be at least two Conservative terms before they even get close to power.
Never mind, somebody will be along with a graph in a minute that shows labour actually won.
Personally feel they were backed into a corner and forced to go with the second referendum stance as they got trashed by the Lib Dems (as the remain party) and the BXP at the European elections and had to please everyone in the party in an election manifesto and in turn entice those from outside of it. They were six months too late changing stance. The fact that they had to defend Corbyn’s history for the duration of his tenure - true or not - didn’t help either.
The campaign was poor in Grimsby. We might have had shadow ministers come to town but I live on Scartho Top and barring a signed Melanie Onn poster to display in my front window and a couple of phone calls on election day (I’m a member) I didn’t see any of them once. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Scartho Top polling station is one of the busiest in Town on polling day - that feels an oversight. Compare the Labour effort to the Conservatives and they were out and about fairly regularly.
The party needs an overhaul. I’m not sure seeing Eddie Izzard campaigning in lipstick and a pink beret around London appeals to the ex-miners, fishermen and dockers up north. The Labour vote matters more outside of London than in it in a GE. If they mess that up again with a leftie leader again they’re done and a new centre left party needs forming that appeals to the wider nation or get trounced again for decades to come.
Personally feel they were backed into a corner and forced to go with the second referendum stance as they got trashed by the Lib Dems (as the remain party) and the BXP at the European elections and had to please everyone in the party in an election manifesto and in turn entice those from outside of it. They were six months too late changing stance. The fact that they had to defend Corbyn’s history for the duration of his tenure - true or not - didn’t help either.
The campaign was poor in Grimsby. We might have had shadow ministers come to town but I live on Scartho Top and barring a signed Melanie Onn poster to display in my front window and a couple of phone calls on election day (I’m a member) I didn’t see any of them once. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Scartho Top polling station is one of the busiest in Town on polling day - that feels an oversight. Compare the Labour effort to the Conservatives and they were out and about fairly regularly.
The party needs an overhaul. I’m not sure seeing Eddie Izzard campaigning in lipstick and a pink beret around London appeals to the ex-miners, fishermen and dockers up north. The Labour vote matters more outside of London than in it in a GE. If they mess that up again with a leftie leader again they’re done and a new centre left party needs forming that appeals to the wider nation.
They were never going to retain Grimsby without accepting the referendum result, it is as simple as that.
As somebody said this morning - "we have lost 59? heartland seats, but not to worry we have gained Putney."
They will elect another Corbynite as the membership hold sway, assuming somebody like Long-Bailey is nominated. I don't support Labour, have never voted labour, but even I am at a loss at how ludicrous they have become.
They’ve had a lot of people join since Corbyn took over - like me - to vote for the new leader once the chance arises. There’s a lot of anger at the Momentum lot from moderates about. The problem is now that we’re left with a right shower to choose from (accept it wasn’t a fantastic bunch as far as outsiders are concerned to begin with).
They’ve had a lot of people join since Corbyn took over - like me - to vote for the new leader once the chance arises. There’s a lot of anger at the Momentum lot from moderates about. The problem is now that we’re left with a right shower to choose from (accept it wasn’t a fantastic bunch as far as outsiders are concerned to begin with).
That is fair enough - we need a functioning opposition who are able to form a government when the need arises so I wish you luck.
For the normal labour voter Corbyn was a disgrace and the early polls showed his unpopularity. A luke warm labour party could have won this election, I am no Boris fan but what a choice we were left with. Corbyn pandered to the remain areas at the expense of the big picture. A more central labour party would have seen off the conservatives and for this I see Corbyn as either a fool or selfish. His brand of socialism leaves us without balance. If the labour party is not allowed to take on an electable leader, I agree with Blair's agent who said form a new central party and leave the left to rot. Sad state for our democracy to be in and I will be surprised if Boris does much for Grimsby but we live in hope
Whatever your political stance; Labour is in very serious trouble, as they have a very narrow minded London centric vision for the country. If as seems likely, they continue with the Corbyn ideology through Rebecca Long Bailey or Angela Rayner, then it's likely they ll be out of power for the next 20 years, on the opposite side I can't see Emily Thornberry or Keir Starmer appealing to your Northern heartlands either. The country can only operate with a strong opposition challenging....Labour needs a serious rethink if it intends to challenge anytime soon.
Whatever your political stance; Labour is in very serious trouble, as they have a very narrow minded London centric vision for the country. If as seems likely, they continue with the Corbyn ideology through Rebecca Long Bailey or Angela Rayner, thrn it's likely they ll be out of power for the next 20 years, on the opposite side I can't see Emily Thornberry or Keir Starmer appealing to your Northern heartlands either. Thr country can only operate with a strong opposition chsllenging....Labour needs a serious rethink if it intends to challenge anytime soon.
Jess Phillips for me, calls a spade a flipping shovel and no fan of Corbynism
On bended knee is no way to be free - Peter R de Vries
Yes I can just see Jess Phillips representing the UK around the world, at the G8 summit calling a spade a f****g shovel.
At least she tells it as it is, no prevaricating, avoiding the question and most importantly doesn't lie (unlike the man currently in Downing Street)
Anyway if that shambling buffon Johnson (who no one at the G8 can possibly take seriously) can be this country's representative around the world any sodomist can do it
On bended knee is no way to be free - Peter R de Vries
The Tories will do intercourse all for Grimsby (or any of the other areas they are currently fawning over simply because they elected a Tory MP) Grimsby and the North East will be forgotten within 12 months.
I will be interested to see what Johnson does for those in Sunderland who lose their jobs at the Nissan plant after Brexit
Unfortunately I fear the Conservatives will get more than another 5 years, they will still be in power long after you and I are dead
They will have to do something for the northern towns Swin as lots have only voted for Boris because he was the lesser of 2 evils.
What Labour have to do is get a leader that most people can relate to.
BUT
If Boris delivers it will be very difficult whoever leads Labour.
Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner. 68 Years following the Town
They will have to do something for the northern towns Swin as lots have only voted for Boris because he was the lesser of 2 evils.
What Labour have to do is get a leader that most people can relate to.
BUT
If Boris delivers it will be very difficult whoever leads Labour.
They won't (they got what they wanted in the election now they will screw all the north like usual0
They won't either (although Labour might get a good leader it will take a while for all those who voted Tory and to leave the EU to realise their mistake and tuirn back to Labour)
Neither will he (and I mean deliver more than just Brexit)
On bended knee is no way to be free - Peter R de Vries
So who would you choose as your leader then, I would have thought Lisa Nandy would be the favourite, or what about Yvette Cooper?....any thoughts?
I was amazed that Yvette Cooper managed to hold on to her seat
I'd have thought she was one of the Labour MPs who was nailed on to lose out, given she was one of the main protaganists for remaining/second vote while her constituency was in favour of leaving the EU
I was amazed that Yvette Cooper managed to hold on to her seat
I'd have thought she was one of the Labour MPs who was nailed on to lose out, given she was one of the main protaganists for remaining/second vote while her constituency was in favour of leaving the EU
She was probably lucky in the fact that she's always had 15,000 majorities, and together with Ed Miliband only just hung on. I'm surprised that she is not in the leadership running though, because with her experience, even though she was a remainer, I would have thought the party needs to move back to the centre now?
Returning to the title of this thread, unfortunately Johnson does not have to respect the electorate at all (as he would have had to do had it been a hung parliament) his majority is so great that he can do exactly as he wants for five years and only has to start making wild promises again when the next election is due and assuming the Labour party will probably (sadly) still be unelectable, a short programme of total bullshit will probably get the Tories in again
On bended knee is no way to be free - Peter R de Vries
Returning to the title of this thread, unfortunately Johnson does not have to respect the electorate at all (as he would have had to do had it been a hung parliament) his majority is so great that he can do exactly as he wants for five years and only has to start making wild promises again when the next election is due and assuming the Labour party will probably (sadly) still be unelectable, a short programme of total bullshit will probably get the Tories in again
That makes no sense whatsoever. The thread was about the refusal to to accept a democratic majority to leave the EU, which would obviously result in a landslide for the party who wanted to implement that result.
Of course the Conservative party can now do pretty much as they like as they have received a mandate from the voting public.
Of course the Conservative party can now do pretty much as they like as they have received a mandate from the voting public.
So, like I said, he can intercourse everybody up without fear for the next 5 years
Its started already with todays announcement that it will be written into law that there will be no extension after 2020, the lying twit is clearly determined to go for a 'no deal' after all and however much his minions all appeared to support leaving in order to get elected I don't believe they all want what would be a suicidal departure without a deal. Even the bloody Tories can't be two faced enough to claim they are doing what their constituents want by leaving and then knowingly screw them by allowing a no deal exit, or can they?
Lets see how the residents of the North East feel when even more of them are out of work
On bended knee is no way to be free - Peter R de Vries
So, like I said, he can intercourse everybody up without fear for the next 5 years
Its started already with todays announcement that it will be written into law that there will be no extension after 2020, the lying twit is clearly determined to go for a 'no deal' after all and however much his minions all appeared to support leaving in order to get elected I don't believe they all want what would be a suicidal departure without a deal. Even the bloody Tories can't be two faced enough to claim they are doing what their constituents want by leaving and then knowingly screw them by allowing a no deal exit, or can they?
Lets see how the residents of the North East feel when even more of them are out of work
The moral of the story is that the losing side should have honoured the 2016 result and consented defeat, instead of undermining and putting what ever blockers they could in the way to prevent Brexit. For what comes, remoaners are to blame, suck it up losers it's all your fault.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
I mean there’s definitely an argument to be made that we should have honoured the result of the referendum. It was relatively close, and a reasonable leave scenario could have been agreed upon had the tories, and the ERG specifically been less intransigent. As someone who votes remain, the day after the referendum I was perfectly happy to accept leave based upon reasonable terms. But then the leave side became more extreme, demanding no deal, and Teresa May had to go along with it because she had such a small majority. In the months after the referendum the tories never sought consensus from the remain side, it was all on their terms. The extremity of the leave position drove people to support remain whereas I suspect many would have been happy to leave on non-ERG terms. Everyone became entrenched in their positions.
I suspect we could have left in 2016/17 if a leave scenario that appeased both sides had been sought.
Anyhow, what happens from here cannot ever be blamed on those of us who never wanted it and aren’t in charge of it. I guess we’ll see what happens. I dearly hope it’s a success, I highly doubt it will be, but either way my conscience is clear.
Quoted from John Fenty, April 2013
I deconstructed the flag to the point where it was safe and couldn’t be considered a danger
I mean there’s definitely an argument to be made that we should have honoured the result of the referendum. It was relatively close, and a reasonable leave scenario could have been agreed upon had the tories, and the ERG specifically been less intransigent. As someone who votes remain, the day after the referendum I was perfectly happy to accept leave based upon reasonable terms. But then the leave side became more extreme, demanding no deal, and Teresa May had to go along with it because she had such a small majority. In the months after the referendum the tories never sought consensus from the remain side, it was all on their terms. The extremity of the leave position drove people to support remain whereas I suspect many would have been happy to leave on non-ERG terms. Everyone became entrenched in their positions.
I suspect we could have left in 2016/17 if a leave scenario that appeased both sides had been sought.
Anyhow, what happens from here cannot ever be blamed on those of us who never wanted it and aren’t in charge of it. I guess we’ll see what happens. I dearly hope it’s a success, I highly doubt it will be, but either way my conscience is clear.
I don't think it was as close as you are making out, Mr Jarvis - can I call you Dan?
Seriously though, if you look at a map of the UK that voted leave or remain, two-thirds of constituency areas voted to leave, often by huge margins.
1.3 million more people voted to leave.
Remain areas were mainly, though not exclusively, limited to big cities, and university towns and the numbers from London skewed the figures a bit. That is fair enough in a referendum in which all votes counted, but it is worth mentioning.
In a two-horse race, the status quo option was always going to attract big numbers, but Leave outvoted them all.
The rules were set from the start; any leave majority meant we would leave, and any remain majority meant we would remain under our current terms - for now at least. The definition of leave is in the dictionary; it is not part leave, leave after having another go etc.
Its all water under the bridge now, as we at last implement the decision made by a majority of British people who voted in the referendum.
I mean there’s definitely an argument to be made that we should have honoured the result of the referendum. It was relatively close, and a reasonable leave scenario could have been agreed upon had the tories, and the ERG specifically been less intransigent. As someone who votes remain, the day after the referendum I was perfectly happy to accept leave based upon reasonable terms. But then the leave side became more extreme, demanding no deal, and Teresa May had to go along with it because she had such a small majority. In the months after the referendum the tories never sought consensus from the remain side, it was all on their terms. The extremity of the leave position drove people to support remain whereas I suspect many would have been happy to leave on non-ERG terms. Everyone became entrenched in their positions.
I suspect we could have left in 2016/17 if a leave scenario that appeased both sides had been sought.
Anyhow, what happens from here cannot ever be blamed on those of us who never wanted it and aren’t in charge of it. I guess we’ll see what happens. I dearly hope it’s a success, I highly doubt it will be, but either way my conscience is clear.
That doesn't pan out does is, I mean the EU elections and general election say otherwise.
The fact that remoaners pushed the bad mouthing and claims for a 2nd referendum I would say more than added fuel to the ERG's claims for a hard brexit a ying and yang if you like.
I will blame remoaners if it goes wrong because with a united front in EU negotiations from the start we would have faired far better and would have left with better terms. The fact that remoaners weakened the governments position with a divided house and forced a no deal off the table was disgraceful, and anti democratic.
When you have been to a restaurant and ordered the meal of the day, and the chef serves up dog excrement are you blame for their incompetence.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
That's an interesting analogy. I'd say if I ordered the meal of the day and the chef served up dog excrement, not only would I not be to blame for their incompetence but I'd also have the right to send it back and refuse to eat it.
However, as I said on another thread, I have reconciled myself to the fact that we'll be leaving the EU, and I hope I'm wrong about the effects it will have on the country. No one would be happier than me (that's probably a lie, I'm generally a right miserable swine) if it proves to be a success.
So if Brexit goes mammaries up it will be the fault of those who didn't want it? Don't think that excuse will wash with the majority Johnson has now - it is all in his hands.
So if Brexit goes mammaries up it will be the fault of those who didn't want it? Don't think that excuse will wash with the majority Johnson has now - it is all in his hands.
If Brexit goes well, the remain voters will also benefit.
It is a democratic decision we have reached, and like all democratic decisions there are some that support it, and some that are against it, but we move forward together as a country and make things work.
I hope it works and I hope Johnson sorts out fabulous trade deals and we thrive. If it doesn't work out I'm not willing to accept I'm responsible though having voted against it.
I hope it works and I hope Johnson sorts out fabulous trade deals and we thrive. If it doesn't work out I'm not willing to accept I'm responsible though having voted against it.
It will all depend on what role you played as a remainer, someone who voted to remain = no issues and no blame, remoaner those who went crying to their MP and did what they could to raise the moaning to media levels = to blame if it goes wrong as their influence fueled weak willed MP's to try and undermine democracy.
If we had a united front to start with, losers consent and where Parliament was behind the Brexit team doing the initial negotiations we would have faired far better than we did. But no the remoaners gave the remoaning politicians the ammunition to undermine the government with the ultimate aim of undermining democracy. Well the remoaners got what they deserved in the end another huge defeat and, that's a hat trick, 2016, Euro elections and the ultimate peoples vote in the general election, now remoaners have to choke on Boris huge mandate, you reap what you sow.
However the fact remains the enemy within divided the house and put our negotiating on a weaker footing by forcing no deal off the table, whether you like it or not that put us at a massive disadvantage as we were basically a captive audience and they could serve up what ever they liked and they did, it was a punishment deal to stop others who have for some time looked at leaving the EU as it isn't working for them.
I like many others believe in our great country and having lived and worked around the world it really is a great country to live in.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
That's an interesting analogy. I'd say if I ordered the meal of the day and the chef served up dog excrement, not only would I not be to blame for their incompetence but I'd also have the right to send it back and refuse to eat it.
However, as I said on another thread, I have reconciled myself to the fact that we'll be leaving the EU, and I hope I'm wrong about the effects it will have on the country. No one would be happier than me (that's probably a lie, I'm generally a right miserable swine) if it proves to be a success.
That's a fair reply, and your point of sending it back is a good one too, because if it doesn't work then at some point should it be a democratic will to rejoin, should the majority at some point want to rejoin the EU then I hope that the losers consent is observed, for the sake of a united front to enable a negotiated deal that benefits the UK.
I am under no illusion that once we are free from the EU that's it, if the Euro collapses as predicted the UK could be invited back under a better deal than it has now, this is a potential reality. I got fed up of politicians saying we can't do this or do that because of Brussels.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
It will all depend on what role you played as a remainer, someone who voted to remain = no issues and no blame, remoaner those who went crying to their MP and did what they could to raise the moaning to media levels = to blame if it goes wrong as their influence fueled weak willed MP's to try and undermine democracy.
If we had a united front to start with, losers consent and where Parliament was behind the Brexit team doing the initial negotiations we would have faired far better than we did. But no the remoaners gave the remoaning politicians the ammunition to undermine the government with the ultimate aim of undermining democracy. Well the remoaners got what they deserved in the end another huge defeat and, that's a hat trick, 2016, Euro elections and the ultimate peoples vote in the general election, now remoaners have to choke on Boris huge mandate, you reap what you sow.
However the fact remains the enemy within divided the house and put our negotiating on a weaker footing by forcing no deal off the table, whether you like it or not that put us at a massive disadvantage as we were basically a captive audience and they could serve up what ever they liked and they did, it was a punishment deal to stop others who have for some time looked at leaving the EU as it isn't working for them.
I like many others believe in our great country and having lived and worked around the world it really is a great country to live in.
Agreed. I voted remain, but we are a democracy, something to be proud of and something to protect at all costs.
I didn't get my 'own way', but to cry about it afterwards is toddler behaviour IMO.
Personally feel they were backed into a corner and forced to go with the second referendum stance as they got trashed by the Lib Dems (as the remain party) and the BXP at the European elections and had to please everyone in the party in an election manifesto and in turn entice those from outside of it. They were six months too late changing stance. The fact that they had to defend Corbyn’s history for the duration of his tenure - true or not - didn’t help either.
The campaign was poor in Grimsby. We might have had shadow ministers come to town but I live on Scartho Top and barring a signed Melanie Onn poster to display in my front window and a couple of phone calls on election day (I’m a member) I didn’t see any of them once. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Scartho Top polling station is one of the busiest in Town on polling day - that feels an oversight. Compare the Labour effort to the Conservatives and they were out and about fairly regularly.
The party needs an overhaul. I’m not sure seeing Eddie Izzard campaigning in lipstick and a pink beret around London appeals to the ex-miners, fishermen and dockers up north. The Labour vote matters more outside of London than in it in a GE. If they mess that up again with a leftie leader again they’re done and a new centre left party needs forming that appeals to the wider nation or get trounced again for decades to come.
Decent enough summary but some points I'd take issue with. I've worked on the last three Labour campaigns in Grimsby and this was definitely the best campaign. Given the time of year Labour activists spoke to an extraordinary number of people. Early dark nights meant the very productive evening canvass sessions were cancelled because the Labour Party didn't want to cause people any undue anxiety knocking at 7-9 p.m. This meant that sessions had to be done earlier-when large number of voters (especially somewhere like Scartho Top) are at work. The two main issues on the doorstep were Brexit and Corbyn. Corbyn's name wasn't mentioned on any of Mel's leaflets. Even on election day there were people telling us they liked Melanie Onn but couldn't vote for her because of Corbyn. The "Save Our NHS" demo outside the hospital was well received. Scartho is the Tory's heartland. You'd expect them to be out there often-and as you say more than once. Melanie Onn was a superb constituency M.P. She was caught in a maelstrom not of her own making (and for those who say she was a late convert when it was obvious her seat was at risk- there is plenty of evidence out there to show that from an early stage she was prepared to work to make Brexit a reality). My personal view is that the so-called Northern heartlands were sacrificed for a few more votes in London. Looking at the size of the London Labour majorities they were better placed to take a Brexit "hit" than Midlands/Northern seats with much smaller ones. For me one of the big problems was that Labour never countered the argument that they were responsible for delaying Brexit sufficiently well. A substantial part of the 3.5 years of "dither and delay" was the fault of Rees-Mogg and his merry crew who, had they got behind May could have seen us out of the E.U. at the original date. There was at that time a majority for the Tories (bought by May via the DUP). Over 100 Tories voted against May's deal and yet people expected the opposition to vote for it?? The other issue that concerns me is far more worrying. The industries that gave Labour such a commanding showing in their so-called heartlands are long gone. My first wife was from a pit village in South Yorkshire called Thurnscoe. You would have to be 50 + now to have worked in any of the local pits. The "youngsters" (i.e.anyone born after 1990) have other things that are issues to them. They probably work in a non-unionised environment (I got my interest in left of centre politics from my experience in one of the civil service unions) and will only have older relatives to tell them the horror stories of the Thatcher years. The "Blessed Margaret" has been dead a number of years. To the younger voters of Don Valley (Maltby FFS!!) she is just someone you could read about in history books. Johnson is different and, trust me, is not seen to be connected with the Tories of the Thatcher era in any way shape or form. This hasn't been a seismic shift -although it obviously picked up speed this last time. People go on about Grimsby being a safe Labour seat. The reality is that the last majority of a substantial nature was in 2005. You have to go back to 97 to find Austin's last five figure majority. There are loads of places around the midlands and the North where Labour majorities have been ebbing away. Ten years ago Labour would have had a chance of taking seats like Amber Valley in Derbyshire. The election last week saw the Tories returned with a 17000 majority. Labour remains strong in virtually all of the big cities but their core vote in those cities is not made up of its heartland voters anymore-many of those are out of the reach of any party.
The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.
Decent enough summary but some points I'd take issue with. I've worked on the last three Labour campaigns in Grimsby and this was definitely the best campaign. Given the time of year Labour activists spoke to an extraordinary number of people. Early dark nights meant the very productive evening canvass sessions were cancelled because the Labour Party didn't want to cause people any undue anxiety knocking at 7-9 p.m. This meant that sessions had to be done earlier-when large number of voters (especially somewhere like Scartho Top) are at work. The two main issues on the doorstep were Brexit and Corbyn. Corbyn's name wasn't mentioned on any of Mel's leaflets. Even on election day there were people telling us they liked Melanie Onn but couldn't vote for her because of Corbyn. The "Save Our NHS" demo outside the hospital was well received. Scartho is the Tory's heartland. You'd expect them to be out there often-and as you say more than once. Melanie Onn was a superb constituency M.P. She was caught in a maelstrom not of her own making (and for those who say she was a late convert when it was obvious her seat was at risk- there is plenty of evidence out there to show that from an early stage she was prepared to work to make Brexit a reality). My personal view is that the so-called Northern heartlands were sacrificed for a few more votes in London. Looking at the size of the London Labour majorities they were better placed to take a Brexit "hit" than Midlands/Northern seats with much smaller ones. For me one of the big problems was that Labour never countered the argument that they were responsible for delaying Brexit sufficiently well. A substantial part of the 3.5 years of "dither and delay" was the fault of Rees-Mogg and his merry crew who, had they got behind May could have seen us out of the E.U. at the original date. There was at that time a majority for the Tories (bought by May via the DUP). Over 100 Tories voted against May's deal and yet people expected the opposition to vote for it?? The other issue that concerns me is far more worrying. The industries that gave Labour such a commanding showing in their so-called heartlands are long gone. My first wife was from a pit village in South Yorkshire called Thurnscoe. You would have to be 50 + now to have worked in any of the local pits. The "youngsters" (i.e.anyone born after 1990) have other things that are issues to them. They probably work in a non-unionised environment (I got my interest in left of centre politics from my experience in one of the civil service unions) and will only have older relatives to tell them the horror stories of the Thatcher years. The "Blessed Margaret" has been dead a number of years. To the younger voters of Don Valley (Maltby FFS!!) she is just someone you could read about in history books. Johnson is different and, trust me, is not seen to be connected with the Tories of the Thatcher era in any way shape or form. This hasn't been a seismic shift -although it obviously picked up speed this last time. People go on about Grimsby being a safe Labour seat. The reality is that the last majority of a substantial nature was in 2005. You have to go back to 97 to find Austin's last five figure majority. There are loads of places around the midlands and the North where Labour majorities have been ebbing away. Ten years ago Labour would have had a chance of taking seats like Amber Valley in Derbyshire. The election last week saw the Tories returned with a 17000 majority. Labour remains strong in virtually all of the big cities but their core vote in those cities is not made up of its heartland voters anymore-many of those are out of the reach of any party.
We are very grateful to "Rees-Mogg and his merry band" because Theresa Mays deal was BRINO, which is what Melanie Onn was also advocating.
Voters are not stupid, and they realised that despite their manifesto pledges in 2017 the Labour party were not going to deliver Brexit in any meaningful sense, and it was obvious they would lose a lot of former, and I stress former, heartland seats due to the stance taken on Brexit.
Labour is not the same Labour party that our forefathers voted for; they are so far removed from normal voters it has been incredible to witness.
They don't seem to have any idea on how to change either - Clive Lewis, Rebecca Long - Bailey and David Lammy are likely to enter the leadership race and unless something happens the momemtum membership will elect another raging left winger which will ensure they are unelectable for another decade at least.
IMHO I think anyone who voted Lib Dem cannot be considered on the usual spectrum of intelligence. Its a shame Swinson is leaving as she still has not explained what was Liberal or Democratic about trying to reverse the result of a democratic process? (I did not vote for Brexit by the way).
IMHO I think anyone who voted Lib Dem cannot be considered on the usual spectrum of intelligence. Its a shame Swinson is leaving as she still has not explained what was Liberal or Democratic about trying to reverse the result of a democratic process? (I did not vote for Brexit by the way).
Aren't they re-branding to the Liberal Undemocrats
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
Is that what you really think? The electorate will self harm unless they vote the way you agree with?
I can assure you that the electorate are not wrong; their decision is a great indication of how the MAJORITY of the voters feel. On this occasion you are in the minority.
The generally silent majority have said in no uncertain manner that they do want Brexit and they don't want the Labour party.
Is that what you really think? The electorate will self harm unless they vote the way you agree with?
I can assure you that the electorate are not wrong; their decision is a great indication of how the MAJORITY of the voters feel. On this occasion you are in the minority.
The generally silent majority have said in no uncertain manner that they do want Brexit and they don't want the Labour party.
Whatever happened to losing with good grace?
I don't think you can claim the majority of voters want Brexit anymore. Opinion polls (which did pretty well at predicting the election results) show majorities for staying in the EU. The conservatives and other right wing Brexit supporting parties achieve around 46/47%. In NI the DUP lost seats and vote share. To claim that suddenly the electorate fully supports Brexit is plain wrong.
Still, because of our electoral system we will leave the EU whether it is still the preferred option or not. This does not change the reality that the electorate is split and likely to stay so for the next few years. It also doesn't change that the country is likely to become more pro EU as time goes by. It seems that Johnson will ignore the the half of the electorate that is pro remain and as a result this half of the electorate will likely become even more pro EU. As result we'll probably be back in the EU within 20 years.
I don't really see Brexit improving lower income areas. One of the main benefits of Brexit is that Westminster gains more power. Westminster hasn't improved areas like Grimsby in the past and there is little reason to think it will now. To improve these areas wealth is going to have to be redistributed from the wealthier areas but being right wing the conservatives like to minimise redistribution.
I don't think you can claim the majority of voters want Brexit anymore. Opinion polls (which did pretty well at predicting the election results) show majorities for staying in the EU. The conservatives and other right wing Brexit supporting parties achieve around 46/47%. In NI the DUP lost seats and vote share. To claim that suddenly the electorate fully supports Brexit is plain wrong.
Still, because of our electoral system we will leave the EU whether it is still the preferred option or not. This does not change the reality that the electorate is split and likely to stay so for the next few years. It also doesn't change that the country is likely to become more pro EU as time goes by. It seems that Johnson will ignore the the half of the electorate that is pro remain and as a result this half of the electorate will likely become even more pro EU. As result we'll probably be back in the EU within 20 years.
I don't really see Brexit improving lower income areas. One of the main benefits of Brexit is that Westminster gains more power. Westminster hasn't improved areas like Grimsby in the past and there is little reason to think it will now. To improve these areas wealth is going to have to be redistributed from the wealthier areas but being right wing the conservatives like to minimise redistribution.
I didn't see any opinion polls pointing to an 80 seat Conservative majority.
You lot are just in denial about everything.
You lost on all fronts; we voted for Brexit and have re-inforced that vote. We voted Conservative (the only major party that wanted to enact the referendum result) by a huge margin and took the labour "red wall" with it.
We won't be split in "years to come." The remain forces are already fading away now the result will be implemented, which is how it should have been when we voted to leave.
The 31st of January will be a day of national rejoicing. You won't join in, but that is up to you.
I didn't see any opinion polls pointing to an 80 seat Conservative majority.
You lot are just in denial about everything.
You lost on all fronts; we voted for Brexit and have re-inforced that vote. We voted Conservative (the only major party that wanted to enact the referendum result) by a huge margin and took the labour "red wall" with it.
We won't be split in "years to come." The remain forces are already fading away now the result will be implemented, which is how it should have been when we voted to leave.
The 31st of January will be a day of national rejoicing. You won't join in, but that is up to you.
What have you won? What is Brexit going to deliver? You right I have lost. I've lost the EHIC which meant my girlfriend could have an operation on her appendix in Estonia for 5 euros. I've lost the right to work in the EU without a visa. I've lost free internet when I'm abroad. I'm not particularly happy about that.
Say what you like. I personally will be supporting this country rejoining the EU as will a lot of people I know. The majority of Brexit voters will have died off in 20/30 years so by that point we'll be free to rejoin all be it on worse terms.
What have you won? What is Brexit going to deliver? You right I have lost. I've lost the EHIC which meant my girlfriend could have an operation on her appendix in Estonia for 5 euros. I've lost the right to work in the EU without a visa. I've lost free internet when I'm abroad. I'm not particularly happy about that.
Say what you like. I personally will be supporting this country rejoining the EU as will a lot of people I know. The majority of Brexit voters will have died off in 20/30 years so by that point we'll be free to rejoin all be it on worse terms.
Why can't your girlfriend get an operation on her appendix FREE on the NHS? Why is geting a Visa such a big deal? I am sure we are all gutted that you have lost free internet whilst abroad, unless of course we negotiate otherwise.
For all the people "you know", there will be millions more ensuring that we remain a free and independent and sovereign country long after the "majority of Brexit voters have died" which incidentally is a distasteful thing to say.
Any decision we make as a country is marginal, in the sense that none of us know how exactly it will pan out. That is why we resort to a democratic decision to decide the direction we need to take. If, and it is a very big if, you can ever get a majority to join the beurocratic nonsense that is the EU, on worse terms than today,including joining the Euro, being paid up members of a federal Europe with it own tax and spend agenda and unlimited free movement of people then you will have earned it.
Why can't your girlfriend get an operation on her appendix FREE on the NHS? Why is geting a Visa such a big deal? I am sure we are all gutted that you have lost free internet whilst abroad, unless of course we negotiate otherwise.
For all the people "you know", there will be millions more ensuring that we remain a free and independent and sovereign country long after the "majority of Brexit voters have died" which incidentally is a distasteful thing to say.
Any decision we make as a country is marginal, in the sense that none of us know how exactly it will pan out. That is why we resort to a democratic decision to decide the direction we need to take. If, and it is a very big if, you can ever get a majority to join the beurocratic nonsense that is the EU, on worse terms than today,including joining the Euro, being paid up members of a federal Europe with it own tax and spend agenda and unlimited free movement of people then you will have earned it.
Last time I looked the NHS didn't operate in Estonia. She was taken ill while we were there. I honestly don't think I could have afforded to pay for an operation outright so if we hadn't had the EHIC i would have had to made a lot of calls to family members at 3 in the morning asking for money. I can get a visa but its added time and money over the current situation. How is that a good thing. I highly doubt roaming charges will be top priority in the 11 months we have to negotiate a free trade deal. Trade deals usually take years so what we end up with in a year is likely to the bare minimum to keep things moving.
Honestly brexiters have serious issues with facts and statistics. Most brexit voters are over 60. Nearly all of them will die in the next 30 years. That's not an offensive thing to say its a matter of fact. Stop being a snowflake.
I can think of many arguments for joining the Schegen Area and allowing the EU to control certain taxes. If the UK joined Schegen areas such as Calais and Lille would become commuter areas for London helping to alleviate housing shortage in the South East. If the EU controlled income taxes we wouldn't see countries like the UK and Ireland constantly cutting income taxes to attract companies. Instead countries would have to improve education and infrastructure to attract business. Selling this to an already pro EU generation shouldn't be hard.
I still haven't really heard about the benefits of brexit. I don't really buy the whole more power to Westmister is a good thing. It makes it a lot easier for the more extreme governments (e.g. Corbyn or parts of the Tory party) to make dangerous changes it to the country which is forbidden under EU law such as nationalising everything or seriously curtailing workers rights.
What have you won? What is Brexit going to deliver? You right I have lost. I've lost the EHIC which meant my girlfriend could have an operation on her appendix in Estonia for 5 euros. I've lost the right to work in the EU without a visa. I've lost free internet when I'm abroad. I'm not particularly happy about that.
Say what you like. I personally will be supporting this country rejoining the EU as will a lot of people I know. The majority of Brexit voters will have died off in 20/30 years so by that point we'll be free to rejoin all be it on worse terms.
Me, me, me, what about the thousands of young girls in this country who miss school because of period poverty because your glorious EU put tax on sanitary towels as a luxury item.
Were have you worked in the EU?
If you can afford to go to Estonia, which would include food, transport and accommodation costs you can afford private health care in the UK.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
Me, me, me, what about the thousands of young girls in this country who miss school because of period poverty because your glorious EU put tax on sanitary towels as a luxury item.
Were have you worked in the EU?
If you can afford to go to Estonia, which would include food, transport and accommodation costs you can afford private health care in the UK.
Good old virtue signalling. Don't try and make out that brexit is some sort of altruistic process. The tampon tax is 5% so probably around 30p a month at the most. The UK government could have quite easily have given out free sanitary items as the Scotish government did. The US still has the tax in many states. Honestly, if we had removed the tax, the EU would have done nothing anyway. The EU are planning to abolish it in 2022.
I worked in France.
It was an emergency operation as stated above. It was a very stressful time and the EHIC made it a little less stressful. The EHIC also reduces insurance costs for those we serious ongoing medical problems. Its quite conceivable that these people will not be able to travel abroad if the EHIC is lost.
Last time I looked the NHS didn't operate in Estonia. She was taken ill while we were there. I honestly don't think I could have afforded to pay for an operation outright so if we hadn't had the EHIC i would have had to made a lot of calls to family members at 3 in the morning asking for money. I can get a visa but its added time and money over the current situation. How is that a good thing. I highly doubt roaming charges will be top priority in the 11 months we have to negotiate a free trade deal. Trade deals usually take years so what we end up with in a year is likely to the bare minimum to keep things moving.
Honestly brexiters have serious issues with facts and statistics. Most brexit voters are over 60. Nearly all of them will die in the next 30 years. That's not an offensive thing to say its a matter of fact. Stop being a snowflake.
I can think of many arguments for joining the Schegen Area and allowing the EU to control certain taxes. If the UK joined Schegen areas such as Calais and Lille would become commuter areas for London helping to alleviate housing shortage in the South East. If the EU controlled income taxes we wouldn't see countries like the UK and Ireland constantly cutting income taxes to attract companies. Instead countries would have to improve education and infrastructure to attract business. Selling this to an already pro EU generation shouldn't be hard.
I still haven't really heard about the benefits of brexit. I don't really buy the whole more power to Westmister is a good thing. It makes it a lot easier for the more extreme governments (e.g. Corbyn or parts of the Tory party) to make dangerous changes it to the country which is forbidden under EU law such as nationalising everything or seriously curtailing workers rights.
You just come across as very selfish.
Shall we put the majority verdict of the voting public, 33 million or so who took part, aside just because you had an emergency in Estonia? It does not seem to matter to you that we all have an equal vote if we are 18 or 90.
Anyway its all decided now. If you see the UK rejoin the EU in your lifetime I would be very very surprised.
Good old virtue signalling. Don't try and make out that brexit is some sort of altruistic process. The tampon tax is 5% so probably around 30p a month at the most. The UK government could have quite easily have given out free sanitary items as the Scotish government did. The US still has the tax in many states. Honestly, if we had removed the tax, the EU would have done nothing anyway. The EU are planning to abolish it in 2022.
I worked in France.
It was an emergency operation as stated above. It was a very stressful time and the EHIC made it a little less stressful. The EHIC also reduces insurance costs for those we serious ongoing medical problems. Its quite conceivable that these people will not be able to travel abroad if the EHIC is lost.
The UK has the lowest EU tax on sanitary towels/pads and your smirking of costing 30p a month doesn't wash with the boxes that are placed in schools in our area for local girls to go to, and if if wasn't for these boxes with free tampons then hundreds of girls in our area wouldn't be going to school. The costs depends on how heavy the period is and one pad doesn't last the day, they could use up to 7 or 8 pads a day. As you see the costs then spiral. The Scottish government give out free prescriptions, but could the NHS afford it in these times, no.
There will be visa's like before Brexit, so you'll be still able to work in which ever country you want.
My wife needed an emergency operation just before Christmas, lucky I have private health care through my company which I pay for, she was seen in no time, no need to go over seas. As Nige said if you can afford it you should take out private health care and that way there will be less stress on the NHS.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
. The EHIC also reduces insurance costs for those we serious ongoing medical problems. Its quite conceivable that these people will not be able to travel abroad if the EHIC is lost.
The disappearance of the EHIC system will be a disaster for me and will end my ability to travel to Europe. I have bowel, liver and lung cancer but I am fit to travel (to Europe anyway) howeverbut despite all the adverts to the contrary getting travel insurance once you declare a cancer has spread is either totally impossible or prohibitively expensive (£700 for a 5 day trip to the Netherlands!)
Amazingly the EHIC card covers pre-existing conditions although my condition is highly unlikely to result in any emergency whilst on a 5 day trip - I am more likely to fall into a canal drunk or break a leg than anything!
I just hope that some reciprocal arrangement can be agreed although as that lying twit Johnson is hell bent on a total break we will almost certainly see the demise of the EHIC system
On bended knee is no way to be free - Peter R de Vries
The UK has the lowest EU tax on sanitary towels/pads and your smirking of costing 30p a month doesn't wash with the boxes that are placed in schools in our area for local girls to go to, and if if wasn't for these boxes with free tampons then hundreds of girls in our area wouldn't be going to school. The costs depends on how heavy the period is and one pad doesn't last the day, they could use up to 7 or 8 pads a day. As you see the costs then spiral. The Scottish government give out free prescriptions, but could the NHS afford it in these times, no.
There will be visa's like before Brexit, so you'll be still able to work in which ever country you want.
My wife needed an emergency operation just before Christmas, lucky I have private health care through my company which I pay for, she was seen in no time, no need to go over seas. As Nige said if you can afford it you should take out private health care and that way there will be less stress on the NHS.
I'm aware of the cost of sanitary products and the differences between usage. At the end of the day its likely that a pack of 30 pads will be sufficient for a full period. This costs around £3 for a mid range pack but could cost as low as 50p. The tax is not the issue. It doesn't help but the cost of the tampon itself is the main issue. The government can tackle this but hasn't. The NHS could afford free perscriptions if tax levels were sufficiently high but they aren't because of years of tory cuts to the tax rate.
There were no visas before brexit. The UK won't accept freedom of movement therefore it will be harder to work within the EU. There is no argument against this it is a fact.
Fair enough but if you refer to my original post you'll see my partner was taken ill while in Estonia on holiday. No amount of forward planning could have prevented this. The EHIC helped, had we not had it we'd be facing a bill of £1000's which would be covered by insurance but would have to be paid up front by myself. The loss of the EHIC is bad for any UK citizen that travels to the EU.
The disappearance of the EHIC system will be a disaster for me and will end my ability to travel to Europe. I have bowel, liver and lung cancer but I am fit to travel (to Europe anyway) howeverbut despite all the adverts to the contrary getting travel insurance once you declare a cancer has spread is either totally impossible or prohibitively expensive (£700 for a 5 day trip to the Netherlands!)
Amazingly the EHIC card covers pre-existing conditions although my condition is highly unlikely to result in any emergency whilst on a 5 day trip - I am more likely to fall into a canal drunk or break a leg than anything!
I just hope that some reciprocal arrangement can be agreed although as that lying twit Johnson is hell bent on a total break we will almost certainly see the demise of the EHIC system
Sorry to hear that. Unfortunately you don't seem to be the only person who will suffer. Fortunately for me my insurance costs are low as I'm in my 20's but I honestly never knew how helpful the EHIC was until I experienced a medical emergency abroad. Its one of those things that very few people understand the benefits of.
I agree as much as much as I hope the EHIC stays, it is probably very far down the long list of negotiating points. We have 11 months of negotiation a according to Johnson. I imagine Johnson will prioritise a trade deal and the health agreements will happen years after the transition, if at all.
I read somehwere that certain countries may well agree to continue to recognise the EHIC system (if we do the same of course so identifying a persons nationality as they arrive at the hospital will be yet another task for the NHS) Spain has been mentioned presumably because of tourism and ex-pats, trouble is I don't want to go to Spain Lets hope the Netherlands follows suit!
On bended knee is no way to be free - Peter R de Vries
I'm aware of the cost of sanitary products and the differences between usage. At the end of the day its likely that a pack of 30 pads will be sufficient for a full period. This costs around £3 for a mid range pack but could cost as low as 50p. The tax is not the issue. It doesn't help but the cost of the tampon itself is the main issue. The government can tackle this but hasn't. The NHS could afford free perscriptions if tax levels were sufficiently high but they aren't because of years of tory cuts to the tax rate.
There were no visas before brexit. The UK won't accept freedom of movement therefore it will be harder to work within the EU. There is no argument against this it is a fact.
Fair enough but if you refer to my original post you'll see my partner was taken ill while in Estonia on holiday. No amount of forward planning could have prevented this. The EHIC helped, had we not had it we'd be facing a bill of £1000's which would be covered by insurance but would have to be paid up front by myself. The loss of the EHIC is bad for any UK citizen that travels to the EU.
We are leaving the EU, and the world will continue turning. There will be new agreements in place for most things on a bi-lateral basis, and everyone affected will be inconvenienced for a nano second, until they get used to the new arrangements.
You won't go to Estonia or anywhere else unlsess you have the provisions that appertain at the time, just as you did on your holiday when the EHIC applied.
Freedom of movement both ways will end, but if you want to work in the EU and they want you it will be via a visa - that is a tiny inconvenience in the grand scheme of things.
Is that what you really think? The electorate will self harm unless they vote the way you agree with?
I can assure you that the electorate are not wrong; their decision is a great indication of how the MAJORITY of the voters feel. On this occasion you are in the minority.
The generally silent majority have said in no uncertain manner that they do want Brexit and they don't want the Labour party.
Whatever happened to losing with good grace?
Yes, a lot of it is self-harm. It’s not the fact they don’t agree with me that’s the issue. A lot of people think Brexit is stupid and places like Grimsby voting for the party that has shafted them for decades (another £2m cut in the budget this year) is even dafter. Like it or lump it.
As for the majority we’re not talking about an overwhelming majority (whether you put it in block capitals or not). And you can win overwhelming commons majorities with a minority of votes cast so the election result is hardly evidence of a seismic shift in votes.
As for losing with good grace, it’s not croquet you know. Don’t you like honest opinions or have you become a ‘snowflake’ and get offended easily? You’re quite happy to slag off others whose opinions you don’t agree with. Works both ways.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
Yes, a lot of it is self-harm. It’s not the fact they don’t agree with me that’s the issue. A lot of people think Brexit is stupid and places like Grimsby voting for the party that has shafted them for decades (another £2m cut in the budget this year) is even dafter. Like it or lump it.
As for the majority we’re not talking about an overwhelming majority (whether you put it in block capitals or not). And you can win overwhelming commons majorities with a minority of votes cast so the election result is hardly evidence of a seismic shift in votes.
As for losing with good grace, it’s not croquet you know. Don’t you like honest opinions or have you become a ‘snowflake’ and get offended easily? You’re quite happy to slag off others whose opinions you don’t agree with. Works both ways.
Yes, a lot of it is self-harm. It’s not the fact they don’t agree with me that’s the issue. A lot of people think Brexit is stupid and places like Grimsby voting for the party that has shafted them for decades (another £2m cut in the budget this year) is even dafter. Like it or lump it.
As for the majority we’re not talking about an overwhelming majority (whether you put it in block capitals or not). And you can win overwhelming commons majorities with a minority of votes cast so the election result is hardly evidence of a seismic shift in votes.
As for losing with good grace, it’s not croquet you know. Don’t you like honest opinions or have you become a ‘snowflake’ and get offended easily? You’re quite happy to slag off others whose opinions you don’t agree with. Works both ways.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
Looking forward to you accepting responsibility for the bill for what is to follow.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
But I thought you guys were supposed to be realistic and honest. Surely you will admit it if you’re proven wrong. Eh?
Nah! Because in your world it’s always someone else’s fault. Poor old me. The foreigners have taken my job. All those nasty foreigners won’t let us have our cake and eat it. They want to protect their interests the fiends.
You’re the biggest bunch of cry-baby, snowflakes out there.
Through the door there came familiar laughter, I saw your face and heard you call my name. Oh my friend we're older but no wiser, For in our hearts the dreams are still the same.
Ah those dopey knuckle-dragging xenophobic patriotic Brexiteers idiots ey. Thing is looking directly above I can only see one person crying here.
When the sky falls in, I'll admit it was a bad idea.
But I bet my mortgage it doesn't.
Maybe it'll be a great success? That's the Remainers and Project Fears biggest fear and how sad they cant have a little faith in their great nation.
Who knows how it'll all pan out? But we the masters of our own destiny now.
That was beautiful, and I think you have touched on something were you said how sad they can't have a little faith in their great nation maybe this is due to their own life and failings. You never see a remoaner with a smile do you, coincidence I think not.
Supporting the Mighty Mariners for over 30 years, home town club is were the heart and soul is and it's great to be a part of it.
Jesus’ disciple Peter, picked up a fish to get the tribute money from it, Jesus left his thumb print on the fish, bless'ed is the Haddock.
This is not an official forum of Grimsby Town Football Club, the opinions expressed are those of the individual authors. If you see an offensive post then click "Report" on the relevant post. Posts will be deleted at the discretion of the moderators whose decision is final. Posts should abide by the Forum Rules. IP addresses of contributors together with dates and times of access are stored. The opinions and viewpoints expressed by contributors to The Fishy are their own and not necessarily those of The Fishy. The Fishy makes no claims that information dispersed through this forum is accurate or reliable. Also The Fishy cannot be held liable for any statements made by contributors of The Fishy.
Site Home
News
Football
Season
Database
Club
POM
Contact
Home
Calendar
Search
Register
Login
lew chaterleys lover
Logged
