Murder Charge

A police officer has been charged with the death of Dalian Atkinson who died 3 years ago,

Another officer has been charged with assault.

Quoted from grimsby pete

A police officer has been charged with the death of Dalian Atkinson who died 3 years ago,

Another officer has been charged with assault.

Unbelieveable!  Surely the CPS are going to struggle to show mens rea on the murder Not guily verdict I hope,

You've made your mind up the basis of what exactly? The CPS have all the facts and have studied them for three years. They have come to the conclusion that there is enough evidence to prosecute.  What do you know that they don't Ipswin?

Quoted from Ipswin

Unbelieveable! Not guily verdicts I hope

One of those rare occasions I fully agree with Swin.

A guy hits another in the head with a machete and another blow so hard it takes the guys hand off. Not charged with attempted murder.

But taser a big bloke with mental health issues and get hung out to dry.

I’m not saying the police weren’t in the wrong, I don’t know the full details. But ‘murder’ ???   FFS

Probably best not to comment on it.

I think we’ll be ok to comment.
I know the Gy Telegraph takes it lead from the fishy. But I doubt our opinions will make the national press or affect a jury.

Quoted from mimma

You've made your mind up the basis of what exactly? The CPS have all the facts and have studied them for three years. They have come to the conclusion that there is enough evidence to prosecute.  What do you know that they don't Ipswin?

Basically because I understand the meaning of 'mens rea' having had to prove not just 'actus reus' (the guilty act) but also 'mens rea' (the guilty knowledge or intent) many times in my working life and the 'mens rea' in this case is thin at best and more likely not present at all

You ought to have a basic grasp of latin if you're posting on the fishy.

Quoted from marinerdazza

Probably best not to comment on it.

Oh please! There are already 100s on Facebook who want to hang the policeman out to dry and many of them are in the area in which the trial will be held and from which the jury will be drawn. I doubt a few entries on the Fishy will get nationwade notice somehow

Quoted from Abdul19

You ought to have a basic grasp of latin if you're posting on the fishy.

A basic grip of English would help in many cases  

Quoted from Ipswin

Oh please! There are already 100s on Facebook who want to hang the policeman out to dry and many of them are in the area in which the trial will be held and from which the jury will be drawn. I doubt a few entries on the Fishy will get nationwade notice somehow

*shrugs*

It's just common sense. Nevertheless, you're obviously the lawyer here, Mr Mens Rea, so knock yourself out.

Quoted from marinerdazza

you're obviously the lawyer here,.

Not at all. Mimma asked me why I thought the CPS might struggle to convict on the murder charge and I simply told him that of the two elements required to prove any charge  I thought one of them might be absent or weak.

I posted an opinion. Someone challenged / attacked me on it and I replied explaining why I held that position. Is that not allowed here?

Quoted from Abdul19

You ought to have a basic grasp of latin if you're posting on the fishy.

Aut nunquam tentes aut perfice..... some Latin that quite a few Town players would have understood back in the day  

I am thinking why it has taken 3 years to bring the charges,

Surely if their was good evidence they would have done this a while ago.

So I am with Swin and think there will be no conviction at the end of the day.

Not sure about the assault charge.

I challenged you. Ipswin, but not attacked. As I said, the CPS have had three years to study the evidence and have decided there is sufficient evidence to take action.
Had it been a simple case of the officers acting in self defence then it wouldn't have come to this. There must be more to it that we are not are not privy to.
I think that it is right to let the court decide. Police cannot be above the law.

Murder is very hard to prove I would imagine maybe excessive force would be easier to prove,
BUT
How do you prove the officer meant to kill him ?

It will all come out in the trial I suppose so we will have to wait and see all the evidence.

Quoted from grimsby pete

I am thinking why it has taken 3 years to bring the charges,

Surely if their was good evidence they would have done this a while ago.

So I am with Swin and think there will be no conviction at the end of the day.

Not sure about the assault charge.

Probably the same reason it's taken nearly three decades to charge Davd Duckenfield over Hillsborough Pete.

Quoted from jock dock tower

Probably the same reason it's taken nearly three decades to charge Davd Duckenfield over Hillsborough Pete.

Yes and I bet he gets off with it John.

Quoted from FishOutOfWater

Aut nunquam tentes aut perfice..... some Latin that quite a few Town players would have understood back in the day  

I think Jolly gives his tactics in Latin for all the good they do- BUT [as Pete would say]it would perhaps be apt for him to use the phrase quoted -rough translation in laymen's language " Do it well or fkoff"

My understanding of the difference between murder and manslaughter is intent.  You have to act in such a way that you know in advance of your action that you might  kill. Manslaughter on the other hand is when someone dies as a result of your action but you did not intend to kill.

I'm sure there are those on here that can clarify it better than me, and some that can in Latin!

The only Latin one I can think of (and I bet I'm a million miles out with the right words, spelling etc)

Nil illegitimus carburendum.  !!!

Agree very difficult to provide intent ,more likely to be downgraded to manslaughter.

Quoted from mimma

My understanding of the difference between murder and manslaughter is intent.  You have to act in such a way that you know in advance of your action that you might  kill. Manslaughter on the other hand is when someone dies as a result of your action but you did not intend to kill.

I'm sure there are those on here that can clarify it better than me, and some that can in Latin!

Exactly! Mens rea.

Did he mean when he discharged his taser, to kill the chap?. Pretty obviously not.

Did his firing his taser kill him? Medical evidence (PM) may well say it did or at least it contibuted so manslaughter is a possibility but surely provided he followed all the rules about using a taser then no court should convict him or no sodomist will want to carry one (bit like firearms teams)

However if he didn't follow the rules then a conviction for manslaughter will be a possibility, unlikely though I sincerly hope

My thought is and it is only a thought is did he fire his taser more then once,

The first one would have disabled him so no need to fire again,

Like I said its only a thought.

I know nothing !!!!!

Murder is premeditated manslaughter is not. Differ in various countries

Quoted from grimsby pete

My thought is and it is only a thought is did he fire his taser more then once,

The first one would have disabled him so no need to fire again,

Like I said its only a thought.

I know nothing !!!!!

Not necessarily Pete-only last month a thug had to be tasered 3 times before he was out-so it would have been attempted murder twice. I'd shoot the illegitimates to make sure instead of taser.

Quoted from grimsby pete

My thought is and it is only a thought is did he fire his taser more then once,

The first one would have disabled him so no need to fire again,

Like I said its only a thought.

I know nothing !!!!!

They don’t fire twice, once the prongs are out they are out. It’s hit or miss

Quoted from supertown

They don’t fire twice, once the prongs are out they are out. It’s hit or miss

So maybe more than one officer fired. Golfer reports an incident where the police fired three times. He won't be reporting fake news would he.

In the same way that we shouldn't pre-judge the police in this case, we shouldn't pre-judge the prosecution either should we? We should trust in good old British courts. 12 peers in a jury will make the final decision. I mean, people have fought hard to defend British justice from those nefarious foreigners in the EU. We should trust it and allow it to run its course.

Maybe this thread could be forwarded to the court for their consideration. Granted, as Pete says, it may be important for the court to hear the evidence at some stage, but in the meantime the jury would at least have some food for thought.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

So maybe more than one officer fired. Golfer reports an incident where the police fired three times. He won't be reporting fake news would he.

In the same way that we shouldn't pre-judge the police in this case, we shouldn't pre-judge the prosecution either should we? We should trust in good old British courts. 12 peers in a jury will make the final decision. I mean, people have fought hard to defend British justice from those nefarious foreigners in the EU. We should trust it and allow it to run its course.

Not fake news Kingston - " Aug 2011  Dale Burns from Barrow-in-Furness tasered 4 times by Cumbria police but coroner said he died from drug "MADCAT"  "  P.S. An American chap was tasered 3 times whilst holding his baby daughter,   Another chap in U.K. was tasered twice AFTER he shot himself in the head- ALL deemed lawful.

Quoted from supertown

They don’t fire twice, once the prongs are out they are out. It’s hit or miss

True-but the taser can be reloaded pretty quickly with another cartridge. Spare cartridges are normally carried by the operative

You seem to know a lot about tasers golfer  

Quoted from Ipswin

Exactly! Mens rea.

Whatever the verdict, the next few months will definitely feel like a road to hell.

Quoted from grimsby pete

You seem to know a lot about tasers golfer  

Studied torture and corporal punishment at Lady Clare academy Stevenage for several years and left with letters behind me [they were actually stamped on my derriere ]  i.e.  "FIFFI"

Quoted from Abdul19

Whatever the verdict, the next few months will definitely feel like a road to hell.

They will for the poor sodomist on the murder charge - he's been remanded in custody FFS! (hardly likely to abscond I would have thought)

There has to be a lot more to it than any of us know

Quoted from golfer

Studied torture and corporal punishment at Lady Clare academy Stevenage for several years and left with letters behind me [they were actually stamped on my derriere ]  i.e.  "FIFFI"

Part of which I believe involves being a Steward for the local football team